Re: Take the baking soda test

[Guest guest]

Good message. I believe I flunk. I did have a *tiny* air bubble at 1

minute 35 seconds but no real burp. 8:20 minutes no burp.

Lee

-- Take the baking soda test

Hi, all.

I recently encountered a PWC who turned out to have low stomach

acid. For several years I've puzzled over why this happens to

people. At one time, I thought that perhaps the problem was that

the carbon dioxide level was low in the blood as a result of low

metabolic rate in the skeletal muscles, secondary to glutathione

depletion and the rise in antioxidants. Since the parietal cells in

the stomach use carbon dioxide from the blood in order to generate

carbonic acid, and from that, to extract the hydrogen ions and pump

them into the stomach to produce the hydrochloric acid in the

stomach, I thought this might explain the low stomach acid in CFS.

Well, now I have a new thought. That other one always seemed to be

a bit of a stretch to me, because the carbon dioxide level in the

blood really doesn't drop all that much in CFS.

So here's a new hypothesis for low stomach acid in CFS:

It's a fact that the parietal cells in the wall of the stomach use

the enzyme carbonic anhydrase to produce carbonic acid from carbon

dioxide and water, which are supplied by the blood.

It's also a fact that carbonic anhydrase requires zinc as its

cofactor.

I think it's also true, though not as clearcut, because it depends

on diet, that if a person does not have enough stomach acid, the

essential minerals, such as zinc and several others, will not be

made as soluble in the stomach as when there is plenty of stomach

acid.

It's a fact that unless the minerals have been dissolved and are in

solution, they will not be absorbed when the food reaches the small

intestine.

So now we have the basis for a vicious circle. If you don't have

enough stomach acid, maybe you don't absorb enough zinc from your

food. If you don't have enough zinc, maybe you can't operate the

carbonic anhydrase reaction fast enough to make serious stomach

acid. And so on....

How do you get into this situation? Maybe by not having enough zinc

in your diet. Maybe by doing something that involves a lot of

sweating for a long time, which causes you to sweat zinc out faster

than you are bringing it in. Serious exercise over a long time

(back when you were able to do it), or maybe even a lot of sauna

could do this.

But once you were in this situation, I think you would tend to be

stuck there. And the consequences of having low stomach acid go

beyond not being able to bring in zinc. This also means that you

are letting unfriendly bacteria and yeasts in with your food. It

also means that you are not getting enough of a few other essential

minerals. It also means that there's no signal to the S cells in

the duodenum to put out secretin, which signals the pancreas to send

in the digestive juice. Without the digestive juice, other

nutrients don't get digested well or absorbed, so we move into

malabsorption and deficiencies.

So my bottom line is, especially if you are a skinny PWC who has

white spots on your fingernails and suffers from stomach reflux,

take the baking soda test and find out for yourself what your

stomach acid situation is. If it's low, you can get betaine-HCl

without a prescription, and you can do something about it yourself.

Here's the baking soda test: Do this test when you have an empty

stomach. Mix 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda in an 8-ounce glass of

water (that's baking soda--sodium bicarbonate, not baking powder).

Drink it, noting the time on your watch or a clock. Measure how

much time passes before you burp. If you haven't burped in five

minutes, you can stop timing. A person with a normal level of

stomach acid will burp within two minutes. Some normals burp within

one minute. If you haven't burped after five minutes have passed,

you are seriously low in stomach acid.

If it turns out that your stomach acid tests low, get some betaine-

HCl (not the same as plain betaine, aka trimethyglycine. It has to

have the HCl on it). When you try this with the first meal, take

one pill with the meal, and notice how your stomach feels. With

your next meal, take two pills, and again notice how your stomach

feels. Continue this process of adding a pill each time until you

experience a warm sensation in your stomach. For the next meal,

drop back to one less pill and maintain that dose with each

following meal. Together with meals, take a multimineral, so that

there will be acid present to dissolve the minerals, and you will

absorb them. This should improve your acid production over time. As

your stomach's production of acid increases, you will need to adjust

the dosage downward. If you get a burning feeling in your stomach,

the dosage is too high.

Hopefully this will break this vicious circle. Good luck!

Rich

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

Just tried your test. How do you measure a burp? I had a little mini

burp(almost nothing) about 30 seconds after, then nothing at all. After about

five minutes I got a little brain tingly, wooziness, and slightly blurry vision.

Any thoughts?

Hope all is well! Still waiting for the Yasko tests results.

Best wishes,

Sue T

rvankonynen <richvank@...> wrote:

Hi, all.

I recently encountered a PWC who turned out to have low stomach

acid. For several years I've puzzled over why this happens to

people. At one time, I thought that perhaps the problem was that

the carbon dioxide level was low in the blood as a result of low

metabolic rate in the skeletal muscles, secondary to glutathione

depletion and the rise in antioxidants. Since the parietal cells in

the stomach use carbon dioxide from the blood in order to generate

carbonic acid, and from that, to extract the hydrogen ions and pump

them into the stomach to produce the hydrochloric acid in the

stomach, I thought this might explain the low stomach acid in CFS.

Well, now I have a new thought. That other one always seemed to be

a bit of a stretch to me, because the carbon dioxide level in the

blood really doesn't drop all that much in CFS.

So here's a new hypothesis for low stomach acid in CFS:

It's a fact that the parietal cells in the wall of the stomach use

the enzyme carbonic anhydrase to produce carbonic acid from carbon

dioxide and water, which are supplied by the blood.

It's also a fact that carbonic anhydrase requires zinc as its

cofactor.

I think it's also true, though not as clearcut, because it depends

on diet, that if a person does not have enough stomach acid, the

essential minerals, such as zinc and several others, will not be

made as soluble in the stomach as when there is plenty of stomach

acid.

It's a fact that unless the minerals have been dissolved and are in

solution, they will not be absorbed when the food reaches the small

intestine.

So now we have the basis for a vicious circle. If you don't have

enough stomach acid, maybe you don't absorb enough zinc from your

food. If you don't have enough zinc, maybe you can't operate the

carbonic anhydrase reaction fast enough to make serious stomach

acid. And so on....

How do you get into this situation? Maybe by not having enough zinc

in your diet. Maybe by doing something that involves a lot of

sweating for a long time, which causes you to sweat zinc out faster

than you are bringing it in. Serious exercise over a long time

(back when you were able to do it), or maybe even a lot of sauna

could do this.

But once you were in this situation, I think you would tend to be

stuck there. And the consequences of having low stomach acid go

beyond not being able to bring in zinc. This also means that you

are letting unfriendly bacteria and yeasts in with your food. It

also means that you are not getting enough of a few other essential

minerals. It also means that there's no signal to the S cells in

the duodenum to put out secretin, which signals the pancreas to send

in the digestive juice. Without the digestive juice, other

nutrients don't get digested well or absorbed, so we move into

malabsorption and deficiencies.

So my bottom line is, especially if you are a skinny PWC who has

white spots on your fingernails and suffers from stomach reflux,

take the baking soda test and find out for yourself what your

stomach acid situation is. If it's low, you can get betaine-HCl

without a prescription, and you can do something about it yourself.

Here's the baking soda test: Do this test when you have an empty

stomach. Mix 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda in an 8-ounce glass of

water (that's baking soda--sodium bicarbonate, not baking powder).

Drink it, noting the time on your watch or a clock. Measure how

much time passes before you burp. If you haven't burped in five

minutes, you can stop timing. A person with a normal level of

stomach acid will burp within two minutes. Some normals burp within

one minute. If you haven't burped after five minutes have passed,

you are seriously low in stomach acid.

If it turns out that your stomach acid tests low, get some betaine-

HCl (not the same as plain betaine, aka trimethyglycine. It has to

have the HCl on it). When you try this with the first meal, take

one pill with the meal, and notice how your stomach feels. With

your next meal, take two pills, and again notice how your stomach

feels. Continue this process of adding a pill each time until you

experience a warm sensation in your stomach. For the next meal,

drop back to one less pill and maintain that dose with each

following meal. Together with meals, take a multimineral, so that

there will be acid present to dissolve the minerals, and you will

absorb them. This should improve your acid production over time. As

your stomach's production of acid increases, you will need to adjust

the dosage downward. If you get a burning feeling in your stomach,

the dosage is too high.

Hopefully this will break this vicious circle. Good luck!

Rich

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

I had low stomach acid, and was an underweight PWC, much as you

described. I went on HCL supplementation for about two years. Then I

went on Salt/C, and my stomach acid returned to normal naturally, I have

not needed ANY HCL supplementation since I started Salt/C. I was a

quite extreme case, BTW, at times had severe burning from regulation

problems with stomach acid, a lot of reflux, etc. I believe the low

stomach acid was due to a salt deficiency, perhaps caused by the

co-infection load.

--Kurt

SPAM-LOW: Take the baking soda test

Hi, all.

I recently encountered a PWC who turned out to have low stomach

acid. For several years I've puzzled over why this happens to

people. At one time, I thought that perhaps the problem was that

the carbon dioxide level was low in the blood as a result of low

metabolic rate in the skeletal muscles, secondary to glutathione

depletion and the rise in antioxidants. Since the parietal cells in

the stomach use carbon dioxide from the blood in order to generate

carbonic acid, and from that, to extract the hydrogen ions and pump

them into the stomach to produce the hydrochloric acid in the

stomach, I thought this might explain the low stomach acid in CFS.

Well, now I have a new thought. That other one always seemed to be

a bit of a stretch to me, because the carbon dioxide level in the

blood really doesn't drop all that much in CFS.

So here's a new hypothesis for low stomach acid in CFS:

It's a fact that the parietal cells in the wall of the stomach use

the enzyme carbonic anhydrase to produce carbonic acid from carbon

dioxide and water, which are supplied by the blood.

It's also a fact that carbonic anhydrase requires zinc as its

cofactor.

I think it's also true, though not as clearcut, because it depends

on diet, that if a person does not have enough stomach acid, the

essential minerals, such as zinc and several others, will not be

made as soluble in the stomach as when there is plenty of stomach

acid.

It's a fact that unless the minerals have been dissolved and are in

solution, they will not be absorbed when the food reaches the small

intestine.

So now we have the basis for a vicious circle. If you don't have

enough stomach acid, maybe you don't absorb enough zinc from your

food. If you don't have enough zinc, maybe you can't operate the

carbonic anhydrase reaction fast enough to make serious stomach

acid. And so on....

How do you get into this situation? Maybe by not having enough zinc

in your diet. Maybe by doing something that involves a lot of

sweating for a long time, which causes you to sweat zinc out faster

than you are bringing it in. Serious exercise over a long time

(back when you were able to do it), or maybe even a lot of sauna

could do this.

But once you were in this situation, I think you would tend to be

stuck there. And the consequences of having low stomach acid go

beyond not being able to bring in zinc. This also means that you

are letting unfriendly bacteria and yeasts in with your food. It

also means that you are not getting enough of a few other essential

minerals. It also means that there's no signal to the S cells in

the duodenum to put out secretin, which signals the pancreas to send

in the digestive juice. Without the digestive juice, other

nutrients don't get digested well or absorbed, so we move into

malabsorption and deficiencies.

So my bottom line is, especially if you are a skinny PWC who has

white spots on your fingernails and suffers from stomach reflux,

take the baking soda test and find out for yourself what your

stomach acid situation is. If it's low, you can get betaine-HCl

without a prescription, and you can do something about it yourself.

Here's the baking soda test: Do this test when you have an empty

stomach. Mix 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda in an 8-ounce glass of

water (that's baking soda--sodium bicarbonate, not baking powder).

Drink it, noting the time on your watch or a clock. Measure how

much time passes before you burp. If you haven't burped in five

minutes, you can stop timing. A person with a normal level of

stomach acid will burp within two minutes. Some normals burp within

one minute. If you haven't burped after five minutes have passed,

you are seriously low in stomach acid.

If it turns out that your stomach acid tests low, get some betaine-

HCl (not the same as plain betaine, aka trimethyglycine. It has to

have the HCl on it). When you try this with the first meal, take

one pill with the meal, and notice how your stomach feels. With

your next meal, take two pills, and again notice how your stomach

feels. Continue this process of adding a pill each time until you

experience a warm sensation in your stomach. For the next meal,

drop back to one less pill and maintain that dose with each

following meal. Together with meals, take a multimineral, so that

there will be acid present to dissolve the minerals, and you will

absorb them. This should improve your acid production over time. As

your stomach's production of acid increases, you will need to adjust

the dosage downward. If you get a burning feeling in your stomach,

the dosage is too high.

Hopefully this will break this vicious circle. Good luck!

Rich

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with

each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Kurt.

I think that's very interesting. It sounds as though your issue might

have been chloride deficiency. Before you did the HCl and the salt/C

treatments, what was your chloride consumption like? Were you using

much salt on your food? Did you have a low salt diet?

The mechanism I was discussing in my post about the baking soda test

involved only the supply of hydrogen ions to the stomach. Of course,

chloride is necessary too, for charge balance, and that's why stomach

acid is hydrogen chloride aka hydrochloric acid. The chloride is much

easier for the parietal cells to come by, normally. They get it from

the blood, and it passes into the stomach via chloride channels,

driven by the elecric field produced by the charge of the hydrogen

ions that have been pumped in by the hydrogen ion pumps. But if a

person is deficient in chloride because of a low-chloride diet, that

could certainly limit stomach acid production. It would probably

produce a lot of other problems, as well.

Rich

>

> I had low stomach acid, and was an underweight PWC, much as you

> described. I went on HCL supplementation for about two years. Then

I

> went on Salt/C, and my stomach acid returned to normal naturally, I

have

> not needed ANY HCL supplementation since I started Salt/C. I was a

> quite extreme case, BTW, at times had severe burning from regulation

> problems with stomach acid, a lot of reflux, etc. I believe the low

> stomach acid was due to a salt deficiency, perhaps caused by the

> co-infection load.

>

> --Kurt

[Guest guest]

Hi, Sue.

It's good to hear from you. Sure takes a long time to get those

test results, doesn't it? They must be swamped.

So when is a burp a burp, huh? You can see why the orthodox doctors

like to have quantitative tests, with numbers printed out on a piece

of paper! However, I do think this is a worthwhile test, and that

sounds to me like a less than robust burp! So I think your stomach

acid must be a little low. I think that would be consistent with

the low mineral levels that were found in your red blood cell

elements test, including the result for zinc. So you might benefit

from trying the betaine-HCl supplement.

Rich

> Hi, all.

>

> I recently encountered a PWC who turned out to have low stomach

> acid. For several years I've puzzled over why this happens to

> people. At one time, I thought that perhaps the problem was that

> the carbon dioxide level was low in the blood as a result of low

> metabolic rate in the skeletal muscles, secondary to glutathione

> depletion and the rise in antioxidants. Since the parietal cells

in

> the stomach use carbon dioxide from the blood in order to generate

> carbonic acid, and from that, to extract the hydrogen ions and

pump

> them into the stomach to produce the hydrochloric acid in the

> stomach, I thought this might explain the low stomach acid in CFS.

>

> Well, now I have a new thought. That other one always seemed to

be

> a bit of a stretch to me, because the carbon dioxide level in the

> blood really doesn't drop all that much in CFS.

>

> So here's a new hypothesis for low stomach acid in CFS:

>

> It's a fact that the parietal cells in the wall of the stomach use

> the enzyme carbonic anhydrase to produce carbonic acid from carbon

> dioxide and water, which are supplied by the blood.

>

> It's also a fact that carbonic anhydrase requires zinc as its

> cofactor.

>

> I think it's also true, though not as clearcut, because it depends

> on diet, that if a person does not have enough stomach acid, the

> essential minerals, such as zinc and several others, will not be

> made as soluble in the stomach as when there is plenty of stomach

> acid.

>

> It's a fact that unless the minerals have been dissolved and are

in

> solution, they will not be absorbed when the food reaches the

small

> intestine.

>

> So now we have the basis for a vicious circle. If you don't have

> enough stomach acid, maybe you don't absorb enough zinc from your

> food. If you don't have enough zinc, maybe you can't operate the

> carbonic anhydrase reaction fast enough to make serious stomach

> acid. And so on....

>

> How do you get into this situation? Maybe by not having enough

zinc

> in your diet. Maybe by doing something that involves a lot of

> sweating for a long time, which causes you to sweat zinc out

faster

> than you are bringing it in. Serious exercise over a long time

> (back when you were able to do it), or maybe even a lot of sauna

> could do this.

>

> But once you were in this situation, I think you would tend to be

> stuck there. And the consequences of having low stomach acid go

> beyond not being able to bring in zinc. This also means that you

> are letting unfriendly bacteria and yeasts in with your food. It

> also means that you are not getting enough of a few other

essential

> minerals. It also means that there's no signal to the S cells in

> the duodenum to put out secretin, which signals the pancreas to

send

> in the digestive juice. Without the digestive juice, other

> nutrients don't get digested well or absorbed, so we move into

> malabsorption and deficiencies.

>

> So my bottom line is, especially if you are a skinny PWC who has

> white spots on your fingernails and suffers from stomach reflux,

> take the baking soda test and find out for yourself what your

> stomach acid situation is. If it's low, you can get betaine-HCl

> without a prescription, and you can do something about it yourself.

>

> Here's the baking soda test: Do this test when you have an empty

> stomach. Mix 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda in an 8-ounce glass of

> water (that's baking soda--sodium bicarbonate, not baking

powder).

> Drink it, noting the time on your watch or a clock. Measure how

> much time passes before you burp. If you haven't burped in five

> minutes, you can stop timing. A person with a normal level of

> stomach acid will burp within two minutes. Some normals burp

within

> one minute. If you haven't burped after five minutes have passed,

> you are seriously low in stomach acid.

>

> If it turns out that your stomach acid tests low, get some betaine-

> HCl (not the same as plain betaine, aka trimethyglycine. It has

to

> have the HCl on it). When you try this with the first meal, take

> one pill with the meal, and notice how your stomach feels. With

> your next meal, take two pills, and again notice how your stomach

> feels. Continue this process of adding a pill each time until you

> experience a warm sensation in your stomach. For the next meal,

> drop back to one less pill and maintain that dose with each

> following meal. Together with meals, take a multimineral, so that

> there will be acid present to dissolve the minerals, and you will

> absorb them. This should improve your acid production over time.

As

> your stomach's production of acid increases, you will need to

adjust

> the dosage downward. If you get a burning feeling in your

stomach,

> the dosage is too high.

>

> Hopefully this will break this vicious circle. Good luck!

>

> Rich

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested

in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

I was not on a salt-restricted diet when I had low stomach acid, at

least not in a conventional sense. But compared to the amount of salt I

take now (4-8g daily) the situation becomes more intriguing. Probably

I was taking no more than 1-2g of salt daily, as I was eating mostly

home-cooked food, not processed food with high salt. Perhaps we have

differential needs for salt, also varying depending on the state of CFS.

I think the chloride explanation makes a lot of sense, perhaps there is

a CFS connection. I believe that was discussed here a year or so ago.

--Kurt

SPAM-MED: Re: Take the baking soda test

Hi, Kurt.

I think that's very interesting. It sounds as though your issue might

have been chloride deficiency. Before you did the HCl and the salt/C

treatments, what was your chloride consumption like? Were you using

much salt on your food? Did you have a low salt diet?

The mechanism I was discussing in my post about the baking soda test

involved only the supply of hydrogen ions to the stomach. Of course,

chloride is necessary too, for charge balance, and that's why stomach

acid is hydrogen chloride aka hydrochloric acid. The chloride is much

easier for the parietal cells to come by, normally. They get it from

the blood, and it passes into the stomach via chloride channels,

driven by the elecric field produced by the charge of the hydrogen

ions that have been pumped in by the hydrogen ion pumps. But if a

person is deficient in chloride because of a low-chloride diet, that

could certainly limit stomach acid production. It would probably

produce a lot of other problems, as well.

Rich

>

> I had low stomach acid, and was an underweight PWC, much as you

> described. I went on HCL supplementation for about two years. Then

I

> went on Salt/C, and my stomach acid returned to normal naturally, I

have

> not needed ANY HCL supplementation since I started Salt/C. I was a

> quite extreme case, BTW, at times had severe burning from regulation

> problems with stomach acid, a lot of reflux, etc. I believe the low

> stomach acid was due to a salt deficiency, perhaps caused by the

> co-infection load.

>

> --Kurt

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with

each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Lee.

Thanks for the information. Maybe betaine-HCl would benefit you.

Rich

>

>

>

> Good message. I believe I flunk. I did have a *tiny* air bubble

at 1

> minute 35 seconds but no real burp. 8:20 minutes no burp.

>

> Lee

>

>

> -- Take the baking soda test

>

> Hi, all.

>

> I recently encountered a PWC who turned out to have low stomach

> acid. For several years I've puzzled over why this happens to

> people. At one time, I thought that perhaps the problem was that

> the carbon dioxide level was low in the blood as a result of low

> metabolic rate in the skeletal muscles, secondary to glutathione

> depletion and the rise in antioxidants. Since the parietal cells

in

> the stomach use carbon dioxide from the blood in order to generate

> carbonic acid, and from that, to extract the hydrogen ions and pump

> them into the stomach to produce the hydrochloric acid in the

> stomach, I thought this might explain the low stomach acid in CFS.

>

> Well, now I have a new thought. That other one always seemed to be

> a bit of a stretch to me, because the carbon dioxide level in the

> blood really doesn't drop all that much in CFS.

>

> So here's a new hypothesis for low stomach acid in CFS:

>

> It's a fact that the parietal cells in the wall of the stomach use

> the enzyme carbonic anhydrase to produce carbonic acid from carbon

> dioxide and water, which are supplied by the blood.

>

> It's also a fact that carbonic anhydrase requires zinc as its

> cofactor.

>

> I think it's also true, though not as clearcut, because it depends

> on diet, that if a person does not have enough stomach acid, the

> essential minerals, such as zinc and several others, will not be

> made as soluble in the stomach as when there is plenty of stomach

> acid.

>

> It's a fact that unless the minerals have been dissolved and are in

> solution, they will not be absorbed when the food reaches the small

> intestine.

>

> So now we have the basis for a vicious circle. If you don't have

> enough stomach acid, maybe you don't absorb enough zinc from your

> food. If you don't have enough zinc, maybe you can't operate the

> carbonic anhydrase reaction fast enough to make serious stomach

> acid. And so on....

>

> How do you get into this situation? Maybe by not having enough

zinc

> in your diet. Maybe by doing something that involves a lot of

> sweating for a long time, which causes you to sweat zinc out faster

> than you are bringing it in. Serious exercise over a long time

> (back when you were able to do it), or maybe even a lot of sauna

> could do this.

>

> But once you were in this situation, I think you would tend to be

> stuck there. And the consequences of having low stomach acid go

> beyond not being able to bring in zinc. This also means that you

> are letting unfriendly bacteria and yeasts in with your food. It

> also means that you are not getting enough of a few other essential

> minerals. It also means that there's no signal to the S cells in

> the duodenum to put out secretin, which signals the pancreas to

send

> in the digestive juice. Without the digestive juice, other

> nutrients don't get digested well or absorbed, so we move into

> malabsorption and deficiencies.

>

> So my bottom line is, especially if you are a skinny PWC who has

> white spots on your fingernails and suffers from stomach reflux,

> take the baking soda test and find out for yourself what your

> stomach acid situation is. If it's low, you can get betaine-HCl

> without a prescription, and you can do something about it yourself.

>

> Here's the baking soda test: Do this test when you have an empty

> stomach. Mix 1/4 teaspoon of baking soda in an 8-ounce glass of

> water (that's baking soda--sodium bicarbonate, not baking powder).

> Drink it, noting the time on your watch or a clock. Measure how

> much time passes before you burp. If you haven't burped in five

> minutes, you can stop timing. A person with a normal level of

> stomach acid will burp within two minutes. Some normals burp

within

> one minute. If you haven't burped after five minutes have passed,

> you are seriously low in stomach acid.

>

> If it turns out that your stomach acid tests low, get some betaine-

> HCl (not the same as plain betaine, aka trimethyglycine. It has to

> have the HCl on it). When you try this with the first meal, take

> one pill with the meal, and notice how your stomach feels. With

> your next meal, take two pills, and again notice how your stomach

> feels. Continue this process of adding a pill each time until you

> experience a warm sensation in your stomach. For the next meal,

> drop back to one less pill and maintain that dose with each

> following meal. Together with meals, take a multimineral, so that

> there will be acid present to dissolve the minerals, and you will

> absorb them. This should improve your acid production over time.

As

> your stomach's production of acid increases, you will need to

adjust

> the dosage downward. If you get a burning feeling in your stomach,

> the dosage is too high.

>

> Hopefully this will break this vicious circle. Good luck!

>

> Rich

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

Rich

Magnesium malate/malic acid is known to help with ATP. Two docs told me to

take this along with Mg and I did not tolerate it well on an empty stomach.

Malic acid is located in apple skins. Remember that old saw " An Apple a Day

Keeps the Doctor Away " ?

mjh

In a message dated 3/17/06 10:12:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

writes:

The

magnesium might be involved, also. The parietal cells in the

stomach have a lot of mitochondria, because it takes a lot of energy

to pump hydrogen ions into the stomach against such a big

concentration gradient. Mitochondria and ATP reactions in general

require magnesium for their operation. So you may have been getting

benefit from the magnesium. As Jim's ATP Profile test results (and

others I've seen) shows, magnesium depletion can be very important

in limiting the use of ATP, and I believe also in actually

generating it. The movement of pyruvate from glycolysis into the

Krebs cycle is controlled by the concentration of free magnesium

ions in the mitochondria, which in turn is controlled by the

concentration of ATP.

[Guest guest]

I just bought some. It could help a bunch. Thanks.

Lee

-- Re: Take the baking soda test

Hi, Lee.

Thanks for the information. Maybe betaine-HCl would benefit you.

Rich

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

I can say that my betaine hcl need decreased considerably after I started

magnesium chloride. I was not feeling the burning sensation with 4 betaine

hcl pills(did not try more).After starting magnesium chloride I get the

burning sensation if I take 2 betaine hcl pills.Sometimes I don't feel a

need for betaine hcl and just start having my meal. .So chloride might be

one of the needed factors.My serum chloride was higher than normal before I

started magnesium chloride. Don't know what that means. I also take zinc.

Best wishes.

Nil

RE: Take the baking soda test

>I had low stomach acid, and was an underweight PWC, much as you

> described. I went on HCL supplementation for about two years. Then I

> went on Salt/C, and my stomach acid returned to normal naturally, I have

> not needed ANY HCL supplementation since I started Salt/C. I was a

> quite extreme case, BTW, at times had severe burning from regulation

> problems with stomach acid, a lot of reflux, etc. I believe the low

> stomach acid was due to a salt deficiency, perhaps caused by the

> co-infection load.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Nil.

I think that's really interesting. Thanks for posting it. The

magnesium might be involved, also. The parietal cells in the

stomach have a lot of mitochondria, because it takes a lot of energy

to pump hydrogen ions into the stomach against such a big

concentration gradient. Mitochondria and ATP reactions in general

require magnesium for their operation. So you may have been getting

benefit from the magnesium. As Jim's ATP Profile test results (and

others I've seen) shows, magnesium depletion can be very important

in limiting the use of ATP, and I believe also in actually

generating it. The movement of pyruvate from glycolysis into the

Krebs cycle is controlled by the concentration of free magnesium

ions in the mitochondria, which in turn is controlled by the

concentration of ATP. This is one of the main feedback mechanisms

that regulates flow of metabolites in order to maintain the cell's

energy charge. Maybe this is a more significant factor in the

vicious circle than zinc is, or at least another contributor. I

think magnesium absorption would be hindered by low stomach acid as

well, even though the paper cited says it wasn't found to be

in that study. It may be that the depletion of several minerals

each contributes a little to lowering the ability of the parietal

cells to generate stomach acid.

Rich

>

> I can say that my betaine hcl need decreased considerably after I

started

> magnesium chloride. I was not feeling the burning sensation with 4

betaine

> hcl pills(did not try more).After starting magnesium chloride I

get the

> burning sensation if I take 2 betaine hcl pills.Sometimes I don't

feel a

> need for betaine hcl and just start having my meal. .So chloride

might be

> one of the needed factors.My serum chloride was higher than normal

before I

> started magnesium chloride. Don't know what that means. I also

take zinc.

> Best wishes.

> Nil

> RE: Take the baking soda test

>

>

> >I had low stomach acid, and was an underweight PWC, much as you

> > described. I went on HCL supplementation for about two years.

Then I

> > went on Salt/C, and my stomach acid returned to normal

naturally, I have

> > not needed ANY HCL supplementation since I started Salt/C. I

was a

> > quite extreme case, BTW, at times had severe burning from

regulation

> > problems with stomach acid, a lot of reflux, etc. I believe the

low

> > stomach acid was due to a salt deficiency, perhaps caused by the

> > co-infection load.

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

On Mar 17, 2006, at 4:48 PM, rvankonynen wrote:

> I think magnesium absorption would be hindered by low stomach acid as

> well, even though the paper cited says it wasn't found to be

> in that study. It may be that the depletion of several minerals

> each contributes a little to lowering the ability of the parietal

> cells to generate stomach acid.

Just an idle question: Could this process possibly also affect B12

absorption (which is a pretty common problem among middle-aged people

-- even those who aren't PWCs)?

Sara

[Guest guest]

Sara, parietal cells, which produce HCL, also produce intrinsic factor

which is needed for the absorption of B12.

I have antibodies to parietal cells, and was told I needed to take B12

because of that. I wonder how common parietal cell autoimmunity is

among the CFS community?

Vickie

>

>

> > I think magnesium absorption would be hindered by low stomach acid

>as

> > well, even though the paper cited says it wasn't found to be

> > in that study. It may be that the depletion of several minerals

> > each contributes a little to lowering the ability of the parietal

> > cells to generate stomach acid.

>

> Just an idle question: Could this process possibly also affect B12

> absorption (which is a pretty common problem among middle-aged

>people

> -- even those who aren't PWCs)?

>

> Sara

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting thread. This low stomach acid thing has been at the core of my

CFS problem for at least two years. I can say for sure that it started at

LEAST by the time I was admitted to emergency with an h.pylori caused ulcer

that blocked my gastric canal. Probably had low acid before or I wouldn't

have had the problem with h, pylori..

Since the infection I've been able to produce no stomach acid. I can take a

dozen 675 mg. pills and not get that burning sensation people talk about

here. In my dreams! Also, if I eat any sort of meal and forget to take

supplemental HCl I get sharp pain.I also take digestive enzymes.

So of course, I flunked the burp test.. But I write because I am curious

about the magnesium angle; I have low vitamin/mineral absorption probably

due to my villous atrophy (confirmed at biopsy) I started getting weekly

IV's of a nutrient " cocktail " made up of magnesium gluconate as well as b's,

c, and calcium. I just started getting glutathione and, just recently,

something called Essentiale N (Polyene Phosphatidylcholine.) I must say, my

energy level has improved significantly..

After I read the comments in this thread about magnesium chloride affecting

HCl levels I was hopeful that maybe my burp test would be affected for the

better. But alas..

Probably it is just too soon to tell.

BTW, here's an interesting Townsend article on stomach acid. It's worth a

peek. A lot of good info:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_252/ai_n6160495

~robin ann

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

I was reading this post and I am curious about the study of omeprazole. I take

a PPI myself and based on some of the things I have been reading here lately, I

have been wondering about that decision. I take it because of severe reflux

having to do with, I believe, an actual anatomical problem. If I miss even one

dose, I am absolutely miserable. But, if it is blocking my body's absorption of

zinc, that is important. I guess I would like to know if you have any more

information regarding that study. Is it something that could be corrected by

adding zinc supplementation or would it continue to block despite the amount

coming in? Also, I was wondering, what is Sparx? I have never heard of it

before.

Thanks,

Dawn

***I'm familiar with that abstract. There is also another one > (PMID:2697554)

that reaches a similar conclusion. However, there is > a third one (PMID:

12546170) that finds that suppression of gastric > acid secretion by omeprazole

reduces intestinal absorption of zinc. > This last paper has more experimental

subjects (14) than the others > do in their test groups (8 and 8, respectively).

In addition, in > the third paper, the same subjects were tested for plasma zinc

> levels without being given omeprazole and after being given it for 7 > days,

instead of using a separate control group and test group as in > the other

studies, which introduces more uncertainty into the data. > I think this third

study has a more precise approach, and they found > a significant difference

(p<0.01) in the zinc absorption after > omeprazole raised the stomach pH from

2.4 to 5.5. I have not gotten > full copies of these papers yet, and don't know

who funded the > studies. (I'm not suggesting any bias, you understand, but

it's > always nice to know who paid for the work. As you are probably > aware,

it is big business for the drug companies to sell people > drugs to shut down

stomach acid production, and evidence that would > suggest that this could lower

zinc absorption and induce a vicious > circle would likely not be popular in

some quarters.) I took > cimetidine for 9 years, with a doctor's prescription,

to treat > reflux before I got interested in biochemistry and physiology and >

learned a little more about reflux and stomach acid generation. I > suspect

that doing this contributed to depleting my body of some > important minerals,

and I also suspect that that's why I experienced > such a large and fast

increase in energy when I began taking > Sparx.

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[Guest guest]

Hi, Dawn.

It is possible for gastroesophageal reflux to be caused by an

anatomical problem with the cardiac sphincter at the top of the

stomach (hiatal hernia). However, I think that most reflux is

caused by low stomach acid, either directly, or because low stomach

acid interferes with absorption of minerals that are needed by the

sphincter muscle to be able to do its job.

I had reflux myself some years ago, before I had begun to study

biochemistry and physiology, and I took Tagamet (cimetidine) every

night for nine years on prescription. Tagamet is now sold over-the-

counter, because its patent has run out, and the drug companies are

now promoting the proton pump inhibitors to the doctors, because the

patents are still valid on them, and they thus have a monopoly and

can charge more money.

After I began to take Sparx (available from http://www.krysalis.net)

a friend of mine challenged me to stop taking Tagamet, which I did,

and I found that I no longer had reflux! So I suspect that mine was

due to a deficiency. Sparx is primarily a high-potency vitamin and

mineral supplement. I don't have any financial interest in it,

though it is produced by a friend of mine, and I had some input into

its development years ago. Some PWCs can't take it because of the

lecithin in it, because they have a soy allergy, but if you can take

it, it is probably the most cost effective product of its type on

the market. About a year ago I compared the price to that of a

similar supplement sold by a multi-level marketing outfit. The cost

was six times as much (yes, 600%!). I rest my case.

It is my opinion that the drug and medical establishments are doing

many people a big disservice by pushing the proton pump inhibitors

so strongly, even advertising them on TV to consumers. Some people

may in fact need them, but I suspect that many who have reflux do

not, and they are actually doing harm down the line to some people.

There was a recent study on Clostridium difficile, a very mean

intestinal bug. Its rise in prevalence appears to be linked to the

increased use of PPIs. I think a person should first take the

baking soda test to find out if they are actually low in stomach

acid. If you are on a PPI, you will have to go off it long enough

to get it out of your body in order to test and see if your stomach

is actually low in acid production. I think there can be a rebound

effect when you first go off the PPI, and the stomach acid will rise

above what it would normally be, so you might have to wait a few

days to be able to run a valid test.

Rich

>

> Hi Rich,

>

> I was reading this post and I am curious about the study of

omeprazole. I take a PPI myself and based on some of the things I

have been reading here lately, I have been wondering about that

decision. I take it because of severe reflux having to do with, I

believe, an actual anatomical problem. If I miss even one dose, I

am absolutely miserable. But, if it is blocking my body's

absorption of zinc, that is important. I guess I would like to know

if you have any more information regarding that study. Is it

something that could be corrected by adding zinc supplementation or

would it continue to block despite the amount coming in? Also, I

was wondering, what is Sparx? I have never heard of it before.

>

> Thanks,

> Dawn

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

I really appreciate the info. I am very much aware of the overuse of PPIs. In

fact, my son's doctor wanted me to give them to him for his chronic ear

infections! (He did have to take it as an infant, but it was a last resort. He

was losing weight, only breastfed, and I was eating a completely allergen free

diet. Not a fun time!) Anyway, I got him a new dr. I am curious to know what

your opinion is in my situation. If I even drink water, then lay down or even

recline, it will come back up. It's not a regurgitation, it is like an open

valve. I am not sure if that makes sense, but that is my best attempt at

describing it. So, knowing that, do you think I should stop my nexium for a set

number of days, (How many would you recommend? I will be miserable, so I'd like

it to be as few as possible while still getting accurate results.) and then

doing the baking soda challenge or do you think that in my case, I might really

need to be on the PPI? By the way, the patent has run out on prilosec (another

PPI) and it is now available over the counter too.

Thanks,

Dawn

Hi, Dawn.> > It is possible for gastroesophageal reflux to be caused by an >

anatomical problem with the cardiac sphincter at the top of the > stomach

(hiatal hernia). However, I think that most reflux is > caused by low stomach

acid, either directly, or because low stomach > acid interferes with absorption

of minerals that are needed by the > sphincter muscle to be able to do its job.>

> I had reflux myself some years ago, before I had begun to study > biochemistry

and physiology, and I took Tagamet (cimetidine) every > night for nine years on

prescription. Tagamet is now sold over-the-> counter, because its patent has

run out, and the drug companies are > now promoting the proton pump inhibitors

to the doctors, because the > patents are still valid on them, and they thus

have a monopoly and > can charge more money.> > After I began to take Sparx

(available from http://www.krysalis.net) > a friend of mine challenged me to

stop taking Tagamet, which I did, > and I found that I no longer had reflux! So

I suspect that mine was > due to a deficiency. Sparx is primarily a

high-potency vitamin and > mineral supplement. I don't have any financial

interest in it, > though it is produced by a friend of mine, and I had some

input into > its development years ago. Some PWCs can't take it because of the

> lecithin in it, because they have a soy allergy, but if you can take > it, it

is probably the most cost effective product of its type on > the market. About

a year ago I compared the price to that of a > similar supplement sold by a

multi-level marketing outfit. The cost > was six times as much (yes, 600%!). I

rest my case.> > It is my opinion that the drug and medical establishments are

doing > many people a big disservice by pushing the proton pump inhibitors > so

strongly, even advertising them on TV to consumers. Some people > may in fact

need them, but I suspect that many who have reflux do > not, and they are

actually doing harm down the line to some people. > There was a recent study on

Clostridium difficile, a very mean > intestinal bug. Its rise in prevalence

appears to be linked to the > increased use of PPIs. I think a person should

first take the > baking soda test to find out if they are actually low in

stomach > acid. If you are on a PPI, you will have to go off it long enough >

to get it out of your body in order to test and see if your stomach > is

actually low in acid production. I think there can be a rebound > effect when

you first go off the PPI, and the stomach acid will rise > above what it would

normally be, so you might have to wait a few > days to be able to run a valid

test.> > Rich

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[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

Sorry, one more question. You said that a rise in C-Dif was due to an increased

use of PPIs? I would love to read the article on that. I always thought C-Dif

was a superinfection caused by antibiotic overuse.

Thanks again,

Dawn

There was a recent study on Clostridium difficile, a very mean > intestinal bug.

Its rise in prevalence appears to be linked to the > increased use of PPIs.

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