Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 In a message dated 3/11/2006 3:29:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, vickillockwood@... writes: Anytime I take in any product with ingredients that include sulfa/sulfates, a lot of those lumps sting like ant bites. Vicki Is it really sulfates or sulfites? Do you eat onions, garlic, broccoli OK? Do you take Epsom salt bath? I used to be horribly allergic to both sulfa drugs and sulfites, but no more. Enjoy a glass of red wive now. mjh " The Basil Book " http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Vicki You might want to join Sulfurstories group for an indepth, no holds barred, discussion of sulfur chemistry, why it's important and how it screws us up when the pathway is not functioning correctly. Lots of folks there with autistic kids, but it is no an autism list. Hopefully Rich here will also share his wisdom on sulfation. He's very knowledgable. mjh " The Basil Book " http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 In a message dated 3/11/2006 3:52:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, vickillockwood@... writes: I eat and love onions, garlic, and broccoli. I have no problem with Epsom Salts (that I've ever noticed--It's been a long while since I was able to get in and out of a tub without pain.) As for red wine, it scares me. I get migraines from aged cheese and the doctor said red wine could do the same thing. Haven't had any in years. Vicki Vicki Onions, garlic and broccoli has loads of sulfur compounds as does Epsom salt. A nice foot soak may be helpful. THe thing with red wine and aged cheese might be either sulfites (not sulfates) or tyrosamine. So, I will have your glass of wine.... mjh " The Basil Book " http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 I eat and love onions, garlic, and broccoli. I have no problem with Epsom Salts (that I've ever noticed--It's been a long while since I was able to get in and out of a tub without pain.) As for red wine, it scares me. I get migraines from aged cheese and the doctor said red wine could do the same thing. Haven't had any in years. Vicki Re: sulfate sensitivity In a message dated 3/11/2006 3:29:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, vickillockwood@... writes: Anytime I take in any product with ingredients that include sulfa/sulfates, a lot of those lumps sting like ant bites. Vicki Is it really sulfates or sulfites? Do you eat onions, garlic, broccoli OK? Do you take Epsom salt bath? I used to be horribly allergic to both sulfa drugs and sulfites, but no more. Enjoy a glass of red wive now. mjh " The Basil Book " http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 The only common ingredient I've found in the supplements that cause me problems is sulfate.If it says Magnesium Sulfate, Pottassium Sulfate, etc, it causes the pain. Vicki Re: sulfate sensitivity In a message dated 3/11/2006 3:29:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, vickillockwood@... writes: Anytime I take in any product with ingredients that include sulfa/sulfates, a lot of those lumps sting like ant bites. Vicki Is it really sulfates or sulfites? Do you eat onions, garlic, broccoli OK? Do you take Epsom salt bath? I used to be horribly allergic to both sulfa drugs and sulfites, but no more. Enjoy a glass of red wive now. mjh " The Basil Book " http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Hi, Vicki. Now you've got me puzzled. You said that you had problems with anything that contains sulfate. But now you say that you have no problem with Epsom salts. Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. Certainly if you get and Epsom salts solution in contact with your skin, you would get some sulfate into those lumps that can sting like ant bites. So I'm wondering how to put all this together. Maybe if you tried Epsom salts now, you would have problems with the stinging, since you said it has been some time. How about an experiment? Soak a towel in an Epsom salts solution and put it against some of your lumps for a while. Will it sting? Rich > In a message dated 3/11/2006 3:52:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > vickillockwood@... writes: > > I eat and love onions, garlic, and broccoli. I have no problem with Epsom > Salts (that I've ever noticed--It's been a long while since I was able to get > in and out of a tub without pain.) > As for red wine, it scares me. I get migraines from aged cheese and the > doctor said red wine could do the same thing. Haven't had any in years. > Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Rich, It will take a while. I usually get a response within 12-15 hours. I'm willing to experiment. I'll give that a try and let you know tomorrow. The onion, garlic, broccoli thing is wierd to me. I don't know why they don't bother me, unless it's the _amount_ that is the problem. Maybe I'm not taking in enough of those things to bother me. It's not like I eat several pounds a day. All I'lve figured out so far is that supplements containing anything with the word 'sulfate' on the end gives me pain. Usually after I've taken several doses. I can't tell you how long it took me to narrow it down. Forever it seems. I'm allergic to NSAIDS and used to use supplements for the swelling and pain and I wasn't journaling back then so it tood a long time to put two and two together. I'll get back to you with the experiment. Vicki Re: sulfate sensitivity Hi, Vicki. Now you've got me puzzled. You said that you had problems with anything that contains sulfate. But now you say that you have no problem with Epsom salts. Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. Certainly if you get and Epsom salts solution in contact with your skin, you would get some sulfate into those lumps that can sting like ant bites. So I'm wondering how to put all this together. Maybe if you tried Epsom salts now, you would have problems with the stinging, since you said it has been some time. How about an experiment? Soak a towel in an Epsom salts solution and put it against some of your lumps for a while. Will it sting? Rich > In a message dated 3/11/2006 3:52:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > vickillockwood@... writes: > > I eat and love onions, garlic, and broccoli. I have no problem with Epsom > Salts (that I've ever noticed--It's been a long while since I was able to get > in and out of a tub without pain.) > As for red wine, it scares me. I get migraines from aged cheese and the > doctor said red wine could do the same thing. Haven't had any in years. > Vicki This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Rich, I assume you know that these lumps are deep under the skin. Though I should know better than to assume anything. They can't been seen, only felt. They aren't like open sores or anything like that. On palpation you can feel them, hundreds of them in some places, like patches of ballbearings or BB's. And when they hurt it isn't all of them (that would surely push me over the edge), just a couple here and a couple there, so that I feel like a few ants are wondering around, testing for sweetness. Boy do they get surprised! Vicki Re: sulfate sensitivity Hi, Vicki. Now you've got me puzzled. You said that you had problems with anything that contains sulfate. But now you say that you have no problem with Epsom salts. Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. Certainly if you get and Epsom salts solution in contact with your skin, you would get some sulfate into those lumps that can sting like ant bites. So I'm wondering how to put all this together. Maybe if you tried Epsom salts now, you would have problems with the stinging, since you said it has been some time. How about an experiment? Soak a towel in an Epsom salts solution and put it against some of your lumps for a while. Will it sting? Rich > In a message dated 3/11/2006 3:52:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > vickillockwood@... writes: > > I eat and love onions, garlic, and broccoli. I have no problem with Epsom > Salts (that I've ever noticed--It's been a long while since I was able to get > in and out of a tub without pain.) > As for red wine, it scares me. I get migraines from aged cheese and the > doctor said red wine could do the same thing. Haven't had any in years. > Vicki This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Hi, Vicki. Oh, O.K. Are they in the fascia or in the skeletal muscle, then? It might not be so easy to get sulfate to them, then, unless the sulfate was raised systemically, such as by ingesting it or really soaking in a tub of Epsom salts solution, and I understand that those are not good options for you. One other thing. I think you said you weren't able to find glucosamine except as a sulfate. I think that that is usually the most effective form for joint pain, because there is quite a bit of sulfate in cartilage, but I have seen glucosamine chloride in the health food store here. In fact, I think it's more common, because somebody has glucosamine sulfate patented. Rich > > Rich, > I assume you know that these lumps are deep under the skin. Though I should know better than to assume anything. > They can't been seen, only felt. They aren't like open sores or anything like that. On palpation you can feel them, hundreds of them in some places, like patches of ballbearings or BB's. And when they hurt it isn't all of them (that would surely push me over the edge), just a couple here and a couple there, so that I feel like a few ants are wondering around, testing for sweetness. Boy do they get surprised! > Vicki > Re: sulfate sensitivity > > > Hi, Vicki. > > Now you've got me puzzled. You said that you had problems with > anything that contains sulfate. But now you say that you have no > problem with Epsom salts. Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. > Certainly if you get and Epsom salts solution in contact with your > skin, you would get some sulfate into those lumps that can sting like > ant bites. So I'm wondering how to put all this together. Maybe if > you tried Epsom salts now, you would have problems with the stinging, > since you said it has been some time. How about an experiment? Soak > a towel in an Epsom salts solution and put it against some of your > lumps for a while. Will it sting? > > Rich > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2006 3:52:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > vickillockwood@ writes: > > > > I eat and love onions, garlic, and broccoli. I have no problem with > Epsom > > Salts (that I've ever noticed--It's been a long while since I was > able to get > > in and out of a tub without pain.) > > As for red wine, it scares me. I get migraines from aged cheese and > the > > doctor said red wine could do the same thing. Haven't had any in > years. > > Vicki > > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Rich, I used glucosmine sulfate (with vit c and MSM) for years to good effect. Because this procuct is derrived from shellfish, a source of contaminants including high concentrations of heavy metals, I changed to glucosamine hydrochloride which is reported shellfish free. I have not been able to give the change an objctive evaluation as I contracted lyme. The lyme has exacerbated my arthritis pain, stiffness, weakness, to such degree that it is now worse than ever. Are you or others aware of any protocol that will attack/suppress the spirochete in the joints? Thanks to all. Mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Vicki, Glucosamine hydrochloride (non shellfish origin) is readily available...try iherb or VitaminShoppe. None work in the absence of Vitamin C so suggest minimum of 2 gm/day in divided dose. Nite, Mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Vicki, Magnesium malate isbetter absorbed. Potassium is available as ascorbate, as is calcium. I don " t have any answer to the sulphur intolerance, but I have some suspicion that it has more to do with Lyme. Nite, Mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Rich: No doctor will tell me anything, but I can feel them easily by just depressing the skin a little, so I think they're in the fascia. The first I found were on the top of my elbow (placing hand on table, palm down, this would be the muscle just below the elbow joint). Then a few in my thighs, then they started cropping up all over. When I first found them, they were rather soft but as time went by they got harder and harder. Also, the stinging seemed to happen more when they were soft then when they got hard, which could mean they sting when they form and then when they get hard, they don't sting anymore. Which would mean I have more and more everytime the stinging starts. Last night I took a hand towel and wet it with hot water, poured about a half cup of Epsom Salts in a wide line and folded the towel over it. Then I put the towel against the bottom of my left arm, from elbow to wrist and wrapped another towel around it. I left it for 15 minutes, then added more hot water and put it on the top of my forearm, elbow to wrist and left it for 15 minutes. I really didn't expect anything to happen and it may just be the power of suggestion, but within 30 minutes the bites began, almost everywhere _except_ my left forearm. Just one or two, here and there. That happens sometimes for no apparent reason so it may be just a coincidence. Eventually, I did have one on my left forearm and one on my left ring finger. When the bites are mild, they feel more like an irritating itch but when they are stronger they burn like an ant bite. I gave it some thought and realized I hadn't had an Epsom Salts bath in a few years. I may be more sensitive now. Or maybe the doctors are right and I'm just a little off! At any rate, I'm open to suggestions. Vicki Re: sulfate sensitivity > > > Hi, Vicki. > > Now you've got me puzzled. You said that you had problems with > anything that contains sulfate. But now you say that you have no > problem with Epsom salts. Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. > Certainly if you get and Epsom salts solution in contact with your > skin, you would get some sulfate into those lumps that can sting like > ant bites. So I'm wondering how to put all this together. Maybe if > you tried Epsom salts now, you would have problems with the stinging, > since you said it has been some time. How about an experiment? Soak > a towel in an Epsom salts solution and put it against some of your > lumps for a while. Will it sting? > > Rich > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2006 3:52:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > vickillockwood@ writes: > > > > I eat and love onions, garlic, and broccoli. I have no problem with > Epsom > > Salts (that I've ever noticed--It's been a long while since I was > able to get > > in and out of a tub without pain.) > > As for red wine, it scares me. I get migraines from aged cheese and > the > > doctor said red wine could do the same thing. Haven't had any in > years. > > Vicki > > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 In a message dated 3/12/2006 6:52:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, lmas@... writes: Didn't the studies done on the effectiveness of glucosamine use the sulfate form, and not the HCl form? Does anyone know? Les ----- Original Message ----- Les Yes, they were. BOth in humans and first in animals where it is an important vetrinary nutritional supplement, especially for race horses. mjh " The Basil Book " http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Didn't the studies done on the effectiveness of glucosamine use the sulfate form, and not the HCl form? Does anyone know? Les Re: sulfate sensitivity Vicki, Glucosamine hydrochloride (non shellfish origin) is readily available...try iherb or VitaminShoppe. None work in the absence of Vitamin C so suggest minimum of 2 gm/day in divided dose. Nite, Mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Hi, Vicki. I don't think you're a little off (or even a whole lot off!). Thanks for running the experiment. It's difficult to reach a conclusion from it, though, since the results don't sound terribly definitive. I'm sorry you are not able to negotiate the tub, since bathing more of your body in an Epsom salts solution would probably be more definitive. Well, so far I'm finding this to be pretty baffling. I don't understand how sulfates could cause this itching. Everybody needs sulfate, the main reasons being that it is important in cartilage to hold water molecules for cushioning, and that it operates in one of the Phase II detox pathways. I wonder if your body is low in sulfate, and then when you add it, it starts binding and moving toxins, or going into your glycosaminoglycans (mucopolysaccharides) in your joints and connective tissue, such as he fascia, and that is what causes the itching. Do you have joint pain? I don't know if it is possible for you to get a measurement of your blood plasma sulfate level. It is measured as part of the Great Smokies Comprehensive Detox Panel (http://www.gsdl.com). If it is low, then adding it might be ramping up some functions that you are currently lacking. Are these bumps associated at all with how well your underlying muscles function? In other words, are the bumps associated with muscle weakness or soreness or burning or aching in the muscles under the bumps? Have you tried putting a little DMSO on the skin over some of the bumps, to see whether that makes the itching better or worse? Same thing with cortisone cream or ointment? Rich > > Rich: > No doctor will tell me anything, but I can feel them easily by just depressing the skin a little, so I think they're in the fascia. The first I found were on the top of my elbow (placing hand on table, palm down, this would be the muscle just below the elbow joint). Then a few in my thighs, then they started cropping up all over. When I first found them, they were rather soft but as time went by they got harder and harder. Also, the stinging seemed to happen more when they were soft then when they got hard, which could mean they sting when they form and then when they get hard, they don't sting anymore. Which would mean I have more and more everytime the stinging starts. > Last night I took a hand towel and wet it with hot water, poured about a half cup of Epsom Salts in a wide line and folded the towel over it. Then I put the towel against the bottom of my left arm, from elbow to wrist and wrapped another towel around it. I left it for 15 minutes, then added more hot water and put it on the top of my forearm, elbow to wrist and left it for 15 minutes. I really didn't expect anything to happen and it may just be the power of suggestion, but within 30 minutes the bites began, almost everywhere _except_ my left forearm. Just one or two, here and there. That happens sometimes for no apparent reason so it may be just a coincidence. Eventually, I did have one on my left forearm and one on my left ring finger. > When the bites are mild, they feel more like an irritating itch but when they are stronger they burn like an ant bite. > I gave it some thought and realized I hadn't had an Epsom Salts bath in a few years. I may be more sensitive now. Or maybe the doctors are right and I'm just a little off! > At any rate, I'm open to suggestions. > Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Hi, Mel. What I know about Lyme therapies is in the post I just made to Naomi. I suggest that you check that. Rich > > Rich, I used glucosmine sulfate (with vit c and MSM) for years to good effect. Because this procuct is derrived from shellfish, a source of contaminants including high concentrations of heavy metals, I changed to glucosamine hydrochloride which is reported shellfish free. I have not been able to give the change an objctive evaluation as I contracted lyme. The lyme has exacerbated my arthritis pain, stiffness, weakness, to such degree that it is now worse than ever. Are you or others aware of any protocol that will attack/suppress the spirochete in the joints? Thanks to all. Mel > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Vicki, I just wanted to bump in here real quick and tell you that I am sorry for you. That really sounds just awful. I really hope you can find someone to help you figure that out and soon! Hugs, Dawn >From: " vicki lockwood " <vickillockwood@...> >Reply- >< > >Subject: Re: Re: sulfate sensitivity >Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:30:57 -0600 > >Rich: >No doctor will tell me anything, but I can feel them easily by just >depressing the skin a little, so I think they're in the fascia. The first I >found were on the top of my elbow (placing hand on table, palm down, this >would be the muscle just below the elbow joint). Then a few in my thighs, >then they started cropping up all over. When I first found them, they were >rather soft but as time went by they got harder and harder. Also, the >stinging seemed to happen more when they were soft then when they got hard, >which could mean they sting when they form and then when they get hard, >they don't sting anymore. Which would mean I have more and more everytime >the stinging starts. >Last night I took a hand towel and wet it with hot water, poured about a >half cup of Epsom Salts in a wide line and folded the towel over it. Then I >put the towel against the bottom of my left arm, from elbow to wrist and >wrapped another towel around it. I left it for 15 minutes, then added more >hot water and put it on the top of my forearm, elbow to wrist and left it >for 15 minutes. I really didn't expect anything to happen and it may just >be the power of suggestion, but within 30 minutes the bites began, almost >everywhere _except_ my left forearm. Just one or two, here and there. That >happens sometimes for no apparent reason so it may be just a coincidence. >Eventually, I did have one on my left forearm and one on my left ring >finger. >When the bites are mild, they feel more like an irritating itch but when >they are stronger they burn like an ant bite. >I gave it some thought and realized I hadn't had an Epsom Salts bath in a >few years. I may be more sensitive now. Or maybe the doctors are right and >I'm just a little off! >At any rate, I'm open to suggestions. >Vicki > > Re: sulfate sensitivity > > > > > > Hi, Vicki. > > > > Now you've got me puzzled. You said that you had problems with > > anything that contains sulfate. But now you say that you have > no > > problem with Epsom salts. Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. > > Certainly if you get and Epsom salts solution in contact with > your > > skin, you would get some sulfate into those lumps that can sting > like > > ant bites. So I'm wondering how to put all this together. > Maybe if > > you tried Epsom salts now, you would have problems with the > stinging, > > since you said it has been some time. How about an experiment? > Soak > > a towel in an Epsom salts solution and put it against some of > your > > lumps for a while. Will it sting? > > > > Rich > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2006 3:52:31 PM Eastern Standard > Time, > > > vickillockwood@ writes: > > > > > > I eat and love onions, garlic, and broccoli. I have no > problem with > > Epsom > > > Salts (that I've ever noticed--It's been a long while since I > was > > able to get > > > in and out of a tub without pain.) > > > As for red wine, it scares me. I get migraines from aged > cheese and > > the > > > doctor said red wine could do the same thing. Haven't had any > in > > years. > > > Vicki > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences > with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested > in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 mjh, do the studies on glucosamine sulfate have anything to say about their source or purity. I am unaware of glucosamine sulfate being sourced from anything other than shellfish, a much contaminated substance. I would be very pleased to learn of an uncontaminated glucosamine sulfate product, not because it has been proven more effective but because I know it works for me. Can someone offer any assurance that glucosamine sulfate, as available on the market, is not contaminated with heavy metals? Mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 If you buy " pharmaceutical grade " , and from a company that can supply a CDA (certificate of analysis) then that should be your guarantee. " Feed-grade " which is for animals- has a high count of metal contaminants (measured in parts per billion (PPB). A good company is UCKELE ( www.uckele.com ) and they'll talk to you on the phone about their products. Most companies that supply supplements are hacks - you need to really check out the company you buy any of these supplements from. Barb PS- I took Condroitin sulfate and glucosamine (UCKELE products) when I had full blown Lyme- and knew I was sensative to the sulfites in foods and I didn't have a problem (notice I said sulfItes and not sulfates). I never had a problem with their product. > > mjh, do the studies on glucosamine sulfate have anything to say about their source or purity. I am unaware of glucosamine sulfate being sourced from anything other than shellfish, a much contaminated substance. I would be very pleased to learn of an uncontaminated glucosamine sulfate product, not because it has been proven more effective but because I know it works for me. Can someone offer any assurance that glucosamine sulfate, as available on the market, is not contaminated with heavy metals? Mel > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Rich: Thanks for the response. I do often have joint pain, which I've always attributed to the fact that I'm overweight. My ankles are really loose (hypermobile) and one has been twisted so often and so badly that it is now permanently swollen (I don't know how else to describe it--doesn't feel swollen, but that outer part of the ankle that has a small soft spot over the bone is now a large soft spot). They both ache sometimes but my main joint problems are my knees and left elbow. Also, I injured some soft tissue in my hip a long time ago and if I exercise, it hurts really bad, but it's not joint pain. And of course, my fingers. I'm a writer so my hands take a beating. when I wake in the morning, my fingers are stiff and painful and my knees don't really want to get going. Worse in the wet weather. As to the test you recommended, I have no insurance and I assume I'd have to have the cooperation of a doctor. Or maybe a chiropractor? I CAN get in the tub. It's not impossible. It's just not comfortable because I have to lie on my back on the hard surface which kinda hurts and then I have to get OUT of the tub which isn't easy. But I'm willing to try if it will give us some answers that might lead to improvement. So how much Epsom Salts should I put in a tub? How hot should the water be? And how long should I stay? Vicki Re: sulfate sensitivity Hi, Vicki. I don't think you're a little off (or even a whole lot off!). Thanks for running the experiment. It's difficult to reach a conclusion from it, though, since the results don't sound terribly definitive. I'm sorry you are not able to negotiate the tub, since bathing more of your body in an Epsom salts solution would probably be more definitive. Well, so far I'm finding this to be pretty baffling. I don't understand how sulfates could cause this itching. Everybody needs sulfate, the main reasons being that it is important in cartilage to hold water molecules for cushioning, and that it operates in one of the Phase II detox pathways. I wonder if your body is low in sulfate, and then when you add it, it starts binding and moving toxins, or going into your glycosaminoglycans (mucopolysaccharides) in your joints and connective tissue, such as he fascia, and that is what causes the itching. Do you have joint pain? I don't know if it is possible for you to get a measurement of your blood plasma sulfate level. It is measured as part of the Great Smokies Comprehensive Detox Panel (http://www.gsdl.com). If it is low, then adding it might be ramping up some functions that you are currently lacking. Are these bumps associated at all with how well your underlying muscles function? In other words, are the bumps associated with muscle weakness or soreness or burning or aching in the muscles under the bumps? Have you tried putting a little DMSO on the skin over some of the bumps, to see whether that makes the itching better or worse? Same thing with cortisone cream or ointment? Rich > > Rich: > No doctor will tell me anything, but I can feel them easily by just depressing the skin a little, so I think they're in the fascia. The first I found were on the top of my elbow (placing hand on table, palm down, this would be the muscle just below the elbow joint). Then a few in my thighs, then they started cropping up all over. When I first found them, they were rather soft but as time went by they got harder and harder. Also, the stinging seemed to happen more when they were soft then when they got hard, which could mean they sting when they form and then when they get hard, they don't sting anymore. Which would mean I have more and more everytime the stinging starts. > Last night I took a hand towel and wet it with hot water, poured about a half cup of Epsom Salts in a wide line and folded the towel over it. Then I put the towel against the bottom of my left arm, from elbow to wrist and wrapped another towel around it. I left it for 15 minutes, then added more hot water and put it on the top of my forearm, elbow to wrist and left it for 15 minutes. I really didn't expect anything to happen and it may just be the power of suggestion, but within 30 minutes the bites began, almost everywhere _except_ my left forearm. Just one or two, here and there. That happens sometimes for no apparent reason so it may be just a coincidence. Eventually, I did have one on my left forearm and one on my left ring finger. > When the bites are mild, they feel more like an irritating itch but when they are stronger they burn like an ant bite. > I gave it some thought and realized I hadn't had an Epsom Salts bath in a few years. I may be more sensitive now. Or maybe the doctors are right and I'm just a little off! > At any rate, I'm open to suggestions. > Vicki This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Hi, Vicki. First of all, I certainly don't want to encourage you to do something that could be detrimental to you, either in terms of giving you more pain or even in risking a fall. So I hope you will use good judgment about trying the weird things I suggest! If you do decide to go ahead with an Epsom salts bath, perhaps it would be wise to have someone else present to help you get in and out of the tub safely, if you can manage that. If you do try it, I would suggest two cups of Epsom salts in a tub of water, with the temperature at a level that you can tolerate it well for 15 or 20 minutes, and taking the bath about that long. I'm hopeful that this would turn out to be beneficial in terms of easing some of the aches and pains you have. If, instead, it makes you feel as though you have been attacked by an ant colony, well, I guess I will be in the dog house, dodging ants myself! On the DMSO, it's available pretty inexpensively from some health food stores, and also from seed and feed stores, since it's used a lot on horses. I doubt if a doctor would want to cooperate on trying it, because it isn't the " standard of care " for aches and pains. However, I can tell you from my own experience and that of members of my family, that it works very well for lots of muscle pains and probably for joint pain, too. There are a few precautions. First, you should get DMSO of good purity. I have used 99% and 99.9%, and they have both been fine. Second, you should make sure your skin is clean, and put it on with a cotton ball of first aid quality. You should not let colored fabric or any other chemicals come in contact with it until it has diffused into your skin, because it can carry them in to your body. You should start with a small amount first, to make sure you don't have some sort of reaction to it. It will itch and perhaps your skin will turn red for a few minutes, but that should go away within about 20 minutes or so. If the itching bothers you too much, put some water on your skin, and that should rehydrate it and stop the itching. It may make your breath and your sweat smell like garlic for a while, because some is converted to dimethylsulfide, and that smells a lot like the sulfide in garlic. Incidentally, DMSO is FDA-approved for use in interstitial cystitis (a bladder condition) in humans. In that case, they infuse it right into the bladder using a catheter. So it is generally very nontoxic, and it is used to treat people sometimes for stroke as well. I'll leave it to you as a person of sound mind to decide whether you want to perform these experiments. Please don't feel any obligation from me. They're just a couple of things that might help, or might at least give us some more information about what's going on with your bumps, lumps or humps! Rich > > Rich: > Thanks for the response. > I do often have joint pain, which I've always attributed to the fact that I'm overweight. My ankles are really loose (hypermobile) and one has been twisted so often and so badly that it is now permanently swollen (I don't know how else to describe it--doesn't feel swollen, but that outer part of the ankle that has a small soft spot over the bone is now a large soft spot). They both ache sometimes but my main joint problems are my knees and left elbow. > Also, I injured some soft tissue in my hip a long time ago and if I exercise, it hurts really bad, but it's not joint pain. And of course, my fingers. I'm a writer so my hands take a beating. when I wake in the morning, my fingers are stiff and painful and my knees don't really want to get going. Worse in the wet weather. > As to the test you recommended, I have no insurance and I assume I'd have to have the cooperation of a doctor. Or maybe a chiropractor? > I CAN get in the tub. It's not impossible. It's just not comfortable because I have to lie on my back on the hard surface which kinda hurts and then I have to get OUT of the tub which isn't easy. But I'm willing to try if it will give us some answers that might lead to improvement. So how much Epsom Salts should I put in a tub? How hot should the water be? And how long should I stay? > Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Vicki In case no one's answered you.... Pad the tub with towels or get an inflatable pool float (you blow them up and are inexpensive, let $5.00) and lay on that in the tub. Start with maybe 1/2 cup of Epsom salt in warm to hot water, it is your comfort level that is important. Over time work up to about 3 cups per tub. Plan on about 30 minutes, take a book, then go to bed as you will be very relaxed. Hope this helps Mg Maven In a message dated 3/13/06 8:48:57 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vickillockwood@... writes: I CAN get in the tub. It's not impossible. It's just not comfortable because I have to lie on my back on the hard surface which kinda hurts and then I have to get OUT of the tub which isn't easy. But I'm willing to try if it will give us some answers that might lead to improvement. So how much Epsom Salts should I put in a tub? How hot should the water be? And how long should I stay? Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Thank you, Dawn. I'd love to find someone who could give me a difinitive answer about exactly what these lumps are, what causes them, and what irritates them. Yesterday it was really bad. Today it's a little better. But I don't know when the pain will ease, or stop, or get worse. I appreciate you being there for me. Vicki Re: sulfate sensitivity >> > >> > >> > Hi, Vicki. >> > >> > Now you've got me puzzled. You said that you had problems with >> > anything that contains sulfate. But now you say that you have >> no >> > problem with Epsom salts. Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. >> > Certainly if you get and Epsom salts solution in contact with >> your >> > skin, you would get some sulfate into those lumps that can sting >> like >> > ant bites. So I'm wondering how to put all this together. >> Maybe if >> > you tried Epsom salts now, you would have problems with the >> stinging, >> > since you said it has been some time. How about an experiment? >> Soak >> > a towel in an Epsom salts solution and put it against some of >> your >> > lumps for a while. Will it sting? >> > >> > Rich >> > >> > >> > > In a message dated 3/11/2006 3:52:31 PM Eastern Standard >> Time, >> > > vickillockwood@ writes: >> > > >> > > I eat and love onions, garlic, and broccoli. I have no >> problem with >> > Epsom >> > > Salts (that I've ever noticed--It's been a long while since I >> was >> > able to get >> > > in and out of a tub without pain.) >> > > As for red wine, it scares me. I get migraines from aged >> cheese and >> > the >> > > doctor said red wine could do the same thing. Haven't had any >> in >> > years. >> > > Vicki >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences >> with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested >> in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 Vicki, What medical diagnosis (all of them) do you have and how long for each? Mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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