Guest guest Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Rich, can you please explain what " steroid rage from cortisone " means? What happens physically inside as well as any outward manifestations of such a thing going on? Thanks... > > Hi, Sara. > [...] To check this out, the next step was to find out what other substances are detoxed using this enzyme to see whether any of them would ring a bell in your case. Well, lo and behold, it turns out that UGT2B7 is also used to detox morphine and related opiates, Diflucan and the androgenic steroids, among others. And, of course, you reported terrific problems with anesthesia which likely involved morphine or other related opioids , particular effectiveness of Diflucan in knocking out your yeast infections, and steroid rage from cortisone. So based on these observations, I think there is a good possibility that you do have a polymorphism in your UGT2B7 enzyme. [...] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 On Mar 5, 2006, at 4:47 PM, rvankonynen wrote: > Hi, Sara. > > I think I may have a small piece of your story figured out. Here's > the rundown: Rich, I am boggled. Really. I'm getting ready to send you my full " story' (maybe later this evening) as requested. I'm updating it to include the past nine months -- amazing to see how much change there's been in my condition. > > In trying to understand a case, one of the first things I do is to > study the unusual things that are reported. One of the things you > have reported is is an unusual sensitivity to Naproxen. As you > probably know, the body views drugs as toxins, and uses its detox > system to get rid of them. If a person has higher than normal > sensitivity to a particular drug, it often means that there is > something amiss with the particular part of the detox system that > normally gets rid of that drug. As a result, when such a person > uses the drug at what is a normal dosage and dosing frequency for > most people, which is based on how fast the normal detox system is > able to get rid of the drug, this person experiences much stronger > effects than normal, because the drug rises to higher concentrations > and has a longer biological half-life in their body than in that of > a normal person. The naproxen thing was one small detail out of a great many (and, frankly, one I've used to good advantage over the years -- it's great to have something in the house that works that well). Interestingly, it has not affected me nearly so strongly in recent months, perhaps due to the glutathione shots? My understanding -- I seem to recall that this even made it into the Canadian case def -- is that it's very common for PWCs to be extremely sensitive to many drugs. If your glutathione hypothesis proves correct, could that be one explanation for this long-observed phenomenon? > O.K., so the first step was to find out how the detox system > normally gets rid of Naproxen. It turns out that it does this by > the pathway known as glucuronidation, one of the Phase II detox > pathways. Glucuronidation of a particular drug or endogenous toxin > takes place by means of one or more of the isoforms of the enzyme > uridine 5'-diphosphoglucuronosyltransferase, or UGT, for short. In > the case of Naproxen, it was reported last year (Bowalgaha et al., > PMID #16187975) that the main isoform of UGT involved is UGT2B7. > So my suspicion was that you inherited a genetic polymorphism > inUGT2B7. > > To check this out, the next step was to find out what other > substances are detoxed using this enzyme to see whether any of them > would ring a bell in your case. Well, lo and behold, it turns out > that UGT2B7 is also used to detox morphine and related opiates, > Diflucan and the androgenic steroids, among others. And, of course, > you reported terrific problems with anesthesia which likely involved > morphine or other related opioids , particular effectiveness of > Diflucan in knocking out your yeast infections, and steroid rage > from cortisone. So based on these observations, I think there is a > good possibility that you do have a polymorphism in your UGT2B7 > enzyme. It's true that a little bit of any of these drugs goes a very long way for me. Sometimes (like when I'm taking morphine post-op, for example), that's a good thing. Sometimes (like when I take cortisone and turn into the Incredible Red-Headed Hulk) it's not so good. I've tried to explain this phenomenon to anesthesiologists the last several times I've had surgery. They seem universally inclined to ignore me, and way overmedicate anyway, leaving me confused, panicked, sick, and miserable for days. Maybe if I include this information next time, they'll take me more seriously....? It's a hope. <g> > Among the drugs, morphine and related opiates, Diflucan, the 1,4 > benzodiazepines, including Valium, Librium, Dalmane, Xanax and > others; Naproxen; Voltaren; ketoprofen; ibuprofen (Motrin, Advil, > Nuprin); fenoprofen (Nalfon); clofibric acid; and Retrovir. Among > the endogenous substances, hyodeoxycholic acid (a component of > bile); estriol (a form of estrogen produced during pregnancy); and > the androgenic steroids dihydrotestosterone, androsterone and > androstane-3 alpha, 17-beta-diol (3 alpha-diol). Well now, there, see? I was just writing in my history about my overstrong reaction to testosterone gel, despite the fact that my blood tests show I'm very low in that area. Much explained. I'm beyond grateful, and am excited to see what else might come up that could prove useful. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Rich, A lot of this sounds like my situation. Naproxen made me very sick also, although I don't have any problem with ibuprofen. When I had knee surgery under general anesthesia 20 years ago, I awoke, with difficulty, to somebody slapping me -- it had been that hard to get me conscious again. I also have problems with exogenous estriol and DHEA (although you didn't mention the latter, I'm thinking it probably undergoes the same detoxification process in the body?). About 10 years ago I tried using mild anabolic steroids (for wasting syndrome-- they use it with AIDS patients) under the guidance of a doctor, and it made me really ill and no one could see why. Would you suggest calcium-d-glucarate as a way of dealing with this deficiency? I'm working on answering all those questions that you asked me, and I'll probably be able to post it tomorrow. Thanks, Ellen > > > To check this out, the next step was to find out what other > substances are detoxed using this enzyme to see whether any of them > would ring a bell in your case. Well, lo and behold, it turns out > that UGT2B7 is also used to detox morphine and related opiates, > Diflucan and the androgenic steroids, among others. And, of course, > you reported terrific problems with anesthesia which likely involved > morphine or other related opioids , particular effectiveness of > Diflucan in knocking out your yeast infections, and steroid rage > from cortisone. So based on these observations, I think there is a > good possibility that you do have a polymorphism in your UGT2B7 > enzyme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Hi, . I don't think the physiology of it is totally understood, but it has been known for some time, particularly in teenage boys who take anabolic androgenic steroids to help build muscle, that they can develop aggressive behavior, termed 'roid rage. I think this is probably analogous to what happens naturally with bulls, and even, sorry to say, with some young men who don't even take steroids. There's just a lot of testosterone. Experiments have been done on rodents by giving them steroids and then pinching their tails (not very kind, I know). Anyway, they have been found to exhibit more aggressive behavior. Since it happens that Sara appears to have a polymorphism in the enzyme that normally breaks down the anabolic androgenic steroids, and since corticosteroid drugs result in self-described " Incredible Hulk " behavior on her part, I think this all fits together. Very interesting. Don't think I'd want to witness it, though! Rich > > Rich, can you please explain what " steroid rage from cortisone " > means? What happens physically inside as well as any outward > manifestations of such a thing going on? > > Thanks... > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Hi, Ellen. That's very interesting. Maybe you're another person with a polymorphism in this enzyme. Yes, DHEA is an androgenic steroid, and it could build these same hormones that this enzyme is supposed to detox. It's interesting that Sara can take DHEA and does fine with it, so long as she takes it in a certain ratio with Armour thyroid. Perhaps it gets used to support the thyroid, and there is no extra to go into making these other androgenic steroids. I think the problem arises because they get converted to dihydrotestosterone. I think that's the one that triggers the 'roid rage, but I'm not positive. It seems as though your reactions to these things are somewhat different from Sara's, but still abnormal. Concerning the calcium D-glucarate, I don't think that would help too much, though it might help a little. It blocks beta glucuronidase, which is made by bacteria in the gut, and this substance can break the bond between a toxin and glucuronic acid, so that the toxin can be reabsorbed by the body. The problem with the enzyme polymorphism that I think Sara has, and possibly that you have as well, is that the toxins do not get bonded efficiently to the glucuronic acid in the first place. O.K. on answering all the questions. Take whatever time you need. Rich > > Rich, > > A lot of this sounds like my situation. Naproxen made me very sick also, > although I don't have any problem with ibuprofen. When I had knee surgery > under general anesthesia 20 years ago, I awoke, with difficulty, to somebody > slapping me -- it had been that hard to get me conscious again. I also have > problems with exogenous estriol and DHEA (although you didn't mention the > latter, I'm thinking it probably undergoes the same detoxification process > in the body?). About 10 years ago I tried using mild anabolic steroids (for > wasting syndrome-- they use it with AIDS patients) under the guidance of a > doctor, and it made me really ill and no one could see why. Would you > suggest calcium-d-glucarate as a way of dealing with this deficiency? > > I'm working on answering all those questions that you asked me, and I'll > probably be able to post it tomorrow. > > Thanks, > Ellen > > > > > > > > To check this out, the next step was to find out what other > > substances are detoxed using this enzyme to see whether any of them > > would ring a bell in your case. Well, lo and behold, it turns out > > that UGT2B7 is also used to detox morphine and related opiates, > > Diflucan and the androgenic steroids, among others. And, of course, > > you reported terrific problems with anesthesia which likely involved > > morphine or other related opioids , particular effectiveness of > > Diflucan in knocking out your yeast infections, and steroid rage > > from cortisone. So based on these observations, I think there is a > > good possibility that you do have a polymorphism in your UGT2B7 > > enzyme. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 Rich, If calcium-d-glutarate isn't the answer, is there a " fix " for this problem? Does it involve methylation? It's not all that useful to know one's polymorphisms if they don't lead to solutions. I'd like to be able to take DHEA. I'm already on armour thyroid and it hasn't helped with DHEA. I forgot to mention that I was reading about the link between low glucuronidation and high bilirubin just a couple of days ago. It struck me, because I've always tested slightly high on bilirubin, although lately it's high normal. Ellen > Concerning the calcium D-glucarate, I don't think that would help > too much, though it might help a little. It blocks beta > glucuronidase, which is made by bacteria in the gut, and this > substance can break the bond between a toxin and glucuronic acid, so > that the toxin can be reabsorbed by the body. The problem with the > enzyme polymorphism that I think Sara has, and possibly that you > have as well, is that the toxins do not get bonded efficiently to > the glucuronic acid in the first place. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2006 Report Share Posted March 5, 2006 In a message dated 3/6/2006 3:06:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, alphabear@... writes: Sara, Naproxyn is a good antiinfalmatory, but like all NSAIDS it will cause mor damage in the long run. I have swithched to curcumin and Bromelain...which seem effective without risk. Mel Sara and Mel Fish oil is also anti inflammatory and has additional benefits.I do not find it an either/or situation. IMy body experiences several types of inflammation and one substance does not affect them all. mjh " The Basil Book " http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 Sara, Naproxyn is a good antiinfalmatory, but like all NSAIDS it will cause mor damage in the long run. I have swithched to curcumin and Bromelain...which seem effective without risk. Mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 On Mar 6, 2006, at 12:07 AM, Mel Baldwin wrote: > Sara, Naproxyn is a good antiinfalmatory, but like all NSAIDS it > will cause mor damage in the long run. Well, yeah, sure -- if you take it every day for a few weeks. I don't think one or two Aleve per month is gonna do me in any time soon, though. > I have swithched to curcumin and Bromelain...which seem effective > without risk. Mel I take massive amounts of bromelian daily, as prescribed by FFC. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 I haven't been in on this thread. Been off line for a few days. But had to say that I used to take NSAIDS several times a day, every day for years. Now I'm allergic to them and break out in hives. My lips swell and we all know the next step is the throat swelling. I didin't know they were bad for me, only knew I was in pain and they helped some. How do they hurt you in the long run? (oither than becoming allergic?) Vicki Re: Sara's drug sensitivities On Mar 6, 2006, at 12:07 AM, Mel Baldwin wrote: > Sara, Naproxyn is a good antiinfalmatory, but like all NSAIDS it > will cause mor damage in the long run. Well, yeah, sure -- if you take it every day for a few weeks. I don't think one or two Aleve per month is gonna do me in any time soon, though. > I have swithched to curcumin and Bromelain...which seem effective > without risk. Mel I take massive amounts of bromelian daily, as prescribed by FFC. Sara This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2006 Report Share Posted March 6, 2006 > > > Sara, Naproxyn is a good antiinfalmatory, but like all NSAIDS it > > will cause mor damage in the long run. Hi Mel - What kind of damage will this cause? I just started on Naproxen five days ago for tendonitis in my arm. I am taking 375mg three times per day for two weeks. Take care. Bernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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