For Rich: glutathione test results

[Guest guest]

Hi, .

>

> Hello Rich,

>

> I wonder if you can give me some pointers of where to go from

here. I

> have just had the results of a glutathione RBC test:

>

> 1.46 (ref. 1.6 - 2.8)

>

> so I am a little below the reference range. I assume that that

means

> that I should now focus on building glutathione and have been

looking

> at old posts about the best way to do that. I have several amalgam

> fillings.

***I'm very glad that you got this test run, and I think that your

low glutathione result corresponds with what is found in many PWCs

(PWMEs). As we have been discussing on the list lately, I think

there is a good chance that your methylation cycle may have a

partial blockade.

>

> My questions are -

>

> - am I right to think that I ought to take Taurine before anything

> else?(starting at 125mg increasing to a max of 2g?)

***Yes, I think that would be a good idea, based on Jon Pangborn's

writeup on the autism treatment. The reason for this is to keep

your taurine level up while there is a temporary diversion of

homocysteine toward methionine and away from cysteine, which is

needed in order for the taurine synthesis pathway to operate. After

the other supplements have been taken for a few days, the taurine is

no longer necessary, because the cysteine production should come

back up.

>

> - then after a couple of weeks to take methyl B12 5000mcg/3 days?

***Yes, I think that's a good idea, again based on Pangborn. I

assume you are going to take it sublingually, and my best guess is

that the dosage should be similar to what is done subcutaneously, so

I think that dosage is appropriate.

>

> - then add folinic acid; after how long? (or only if I do/do not

get a

> response from the other stuff?) How much do I take?

***Dr. Jim Neubrander recommends adding folinic acid after a five-

week trial with methyl-B12 in autism. I think his reason for this

is to find out first if the methyl-B12 helps. In some autistic

children, folinic acid is apparently not needed. However, it is

possible that both are needed, so that's why he recommends adding

folinic acid. He says that about 20% of autistic children do not

tolerate folinic acid, becoming hyperactive. So I guess the thing

to do is to pay attention to how you feel as you take these

supplements, and let that be your guide.

***Based on Jon Pangborn's discussion, I think that starting low and

working up to a dosage of 400 micrograms per day of folinic acid, if

tolerated well, would be a good approach.

>

> - same question about TMG

***I don't see clear guidance in the autism book about when to start

TMG, so I would suggest a week after starting folinic acid. This

will give you a chance to see what is helping. The dosage of TMG

should start at 150 to 500 milligrams per day, and work up to 550 to

1600 mg per day. These are the ranges given by Pangborn.

>

> - when should I add whey powder?

***I would suggest waiting until a week after the TMG is started.

>

> - I am sure that I read that it is better not to take NAC if one

has

> mercury fillings ( and I know that I am sensitive to mercury having

> suffered a set back on having some dental work done),is that right?

***Yes, if you know you have a mercury issue (and it sounds as

though you have good direct evidence, as well as having low

glutathione in the presence of amalgam fillings, which in itself

would suggest that you probably have elevated mercury), then NAC

should be avoided, or if taken, kept below 300 mg per day, based on

Quig's advice.

>

> I have just started to take Epsom Salt baths; Prof Malcolm Hooper

says

> (Engaging with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis p.63 ) that " too much

> magnesium may lead to adverse effects some of which are known to be

> serious so small doses and regular monitoring is strongly advised.

> Once normal levels of magnesium and sulphate are reached then no

> further treatment is necessary " . As I can't go in for regular

> monitoring I suppose that I shall have to just use them

occasionally

> to be on the safe side.

***I think it's always wise in CFS (ME) to start with low dosages of

anything you try, and then work up as it is tolerated. I realize

that you are trying several things, and this makes it difficult to

space them all out to see what the effect of each is individually,

but to the degree that you can do it, changing one thing at a time

is helpful, in order to enable sorting out what is doing what.

>

> In case it is relevant to your answers I am currently taking D-

ribose,

> COQ 10, carnitine, niacinamide ( ie. Dr Myhill's recommendations

after

> Sinatra's work), low doses of Armour thyroid, thyroxine,

> hydrocortisone, mulivitamins, vits E and B, mineral powder ( Dr

> Myhill's), fish oil, evening primrose oil and coconut oil.

***O.K., these sound like reasonable things to take, and I think

they will be supportive of your efforts to unblock your methylation

cycle and raise your glutathione.

>

> Thank you for your help with this and to this list as whole; it is

a

> source of so much helpful information, most of which my doctor is

> unfamiliar with.

***You're quite welcome, . And thanks to you for being a

pioneer with the autism treatments. I hope this pays off for you,

and that we also learn from your experience, so that others will

have a better idea of what might help them.

>

> Best wishes

>

Rich

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Sue (and ).

>

> Dear Rich and ,

>

> And " Thank You " to both of you for posting questions and answers

regarding the DAN! program. I am taking some of the supplements

mentioned in 's post.

>

> I started taking Taurine and worked up to 1500mg per day for a

week then added Methyl B12 powder now for 4 weeks now. I am

definitely improving. I have also added B6(P-5-P) 50 mg per day to

my Mag supplements.

***I'm really glad to hear that you're improving! And thanks for

mentioning B6 (P-5-P) and the magnesium. (I should have mentioned

that in my post to , too, since that may also be beneficial

to her, so hopefully she will read this. In the absence of

characterizing genetic variations, I think we need to cast a wide

net in trying supplements that have helped in autism, and B6 (P-5-P)

and magnesium has been helpful to many autistic kids.)

>

> A week ago I tried the extra Folinic acid and TMG but was not

really comfortable taking them at this point.

>

> I will stick with the Taurine, B6 and Mag, and Methyl B12

powder for now.

***O.K., Sue. Going slow on those might be a good idea. For one

thing, you will be better able to tell what is having an effect. We

are really just feeling our way along with these things, since there

isn't much experience with them yet in CFS, and we don't have

detailed characterizations of all the genetic variations in the

enzymes involved. As time goes on, I think we will have much better

diagnostics than we have now, considering that there will likely be

a commercially available lab test for SAMe/SAH ratio, as well as a

better understanding of the genetic variations and hopefully less

expensive characterization of them.

>

> Rich, do you think since I am doing OK that I can try on my

Capra Goat mineral Whey and see what happens or do you think I

should wait a while longer?

***I think you could add it, starting at a low dosage. If you

tolerate it well, you could raise the dosage, and if not, you could

drop back.

>

> I also started Recup almost 2 weeks ago and I think it is also

making a big difference with energy, brain fog, and a little with

shoulder pain.

***That's really good to hear, too. Quite a few people have

reported good results from Recup on the AlfredBlasiProtocol list. I

think it must be helping the cells to get the ions they need, and

probably helping to balance out the ionic concentrations in the

cells. This is just a guess, though.

>

> I am sticking with the DAN! program. This is the best I have

felt in many years. I really feel I am following the best path for

CFS at this point.

***Well, that's wonderful! I hope things continue to improve for

you.

>

> Thanks to EVERYONE in this group that have posted with their

questions, stories, experiences, and help.

***Thanks to you, too, Sue, for being willing to give this a try,

and for letting us know how it's going.

>

> Best wishes

> Sue T

Rich

[Guest guest]

Rich,

ONe thing I've found interesting is that I seem to tolerate all the supplements

that the autism group uses. I'm notoriously intolerant and have bad reactions to

so many meds and supplements, so I take that as another indication I'm on the

right track. Like Choline, L-Carnitine, SAMe, whey proteins, MSM, just to name a

few. But I started the Taurine almost a year ago at 500mg a day and had no

problems. Then I started TMG not long after that (remember this was before we

knew about any of this in autism) and have always tolerated it very well. I

tolerate the Folinic acid just fine as well,have taken it about a month now. I

think it was starting the Methyl B12 injections a few months ago that actually

started to 'put it all together' tho. I do take oral mag but it just doesn't

work like the shots. I had some mag IM shots from the ND last year and it hurt

like crazy and left huge knots and bruises, so thats just not an option for me.

(he does not mix it with anything for pain) But I do get it once a month in my

Myers IV cocktail, something else that helps me tremendously.

I have yet to get further with my merc removal/dental work, but that will begin

again in the next couple months. (my dental insurance never paid the $760 they

owe on the first 4k I had to spend so thats been another unplanned setback). I'm

just furious about it because they do owe it but keep refusing for one reason,

then another. I will have to make a complaint to our states insurance commission

it looks like.

Anyway, this has all made a huge diff for me. I had the best Christmas I've had

in many years. I'm not 'well' yet, but I can do much more than I could last year

at this same time, with less pain, and so far no colds/flus like I was getting

so often in past winters. I still feel something is 'missing' and its probably

doing the DMSA and getting the merc out, do you think? So, that also will happen

in these next few months (I will begin and go slow). Do you know offhand what

the milligrams rec. for the DMSA in the autistic kids is? And its given 3 days

on and 4 off? I know my ND won't know and not sure I can muddle through the DAN!

website to find that on my really slow connection. I still have the urine

collection test to do, something keeps coming up, had planned it last week but

then reading the directions it said not to consume fish for a full week before

doing it (I'd just had salmon a couple days before), also some supplements (fish

oil, etc) must be avoided as well, so I'm eliminating things and will collect

that and send it off next week to get a baseline metals test before doing any

chelating. Then I still plan to do a course of the oral EDTA before doing DMSA.

My thinking is if there are other heavy metals (which I'm sure there are with a

mouth full of armour) built up, it might be easier to remove those before going

after mercury, as there isn't as much risk with removing those, is that right?

That might 'free up' more resources to remove mercury is my thinking on that.

Do you think that would cause any problems or is a good idea?

Thanks for your input as always, you're a blessing!

Marcia

***I'm really glad to hear that you're improving! And thanks for

mentioning B6 (P-5-P) and the magnesium. (I should have mentioned

that in my post to , too, since that may also be beneficial

to her, so hopefully she will read this. In the absence of

characterizing genetic variations, I think we need to cast a wide

net in trying supplements that have helped in autism, and B6 (P-5-P)

and magnesium has been helpful to many autistic kids.)

>

> A week ago I tried the extra Folinic acid and TMG but was not

really comfortable taking them at this point.

>

> I will stick with the Taurine, B6 and Mag, and Methyl B12

powder for now.

***O.K., Sue. Going slow on those might be a good idea. For one

thing, you will be better able to tell what is having an effect. We

are really just feeling our way along with these things, since there

isn't much experience with them yet in CFS, and we don't have

detailed characterizations of all the genetic variations in the

enzymes involved. As time goes on, I think we will have much better

diagnostics than we have now, considering that there will likely be

a commercially available lab test for SAMe/SAH ratio, as well as a

better understanding of the genetic variations and hopefully less

expensive characterization of them.

>

> Rich, do you think since I am doing OK that I can try on my

Capra Goat mineral Whey and see what happens or do you think I

should wait a while longer?

***I think you could add it, starting at a low dosage. If you

tolerate it well, you could raise the dosage, and if not, you could

drop back.

>

> I also started Recup almost 2 weeks ago and I think it is also

making a big difference with energy, brain fog, and a little with

shoulder pain.

***That's really good to hear, too. Quite a few people have

reported good results from Recup on the AlfredBlasiProtocol list. I

think it must be helping the cells to get the ions they need, and

probably helping to balance out the ionic concentrations in the

cells. This is just a guess, though.

>

> I am sticking with the DAN! program. This is the best I have

felt in many years. I really feel I am following the best path for

CFS at this point.

***Well, that's wonderful! I hope things continue to improve for

you.

>

> Thanks to EVERYONE in this group that have posted with their

questions, stories, experiences, and help.

***Thanks to you, too, Sue, for being willing to give this a try,

and for letting us know how it's going.

>

> Best wishes

> Sue T

Rich

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> Rich,

>

> ONe thing I've found interesting is that I seem to tolerate all the

supplements that the autism group uses.

Marcia, I am so happy to read that you are doing better!! I know how

ill you have been. I may have missed your post of what " autism "

supplements you started taking. Is there a place which shows what those

supplements are? I also remember you being intolerant of most

supplements so this is a great step up!

Bob

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Bob,

A big help is the monthly IV Myers (vitamin) cocktail with

glutathione IV after it.

Marcia, thanks for the encouragement. I have been told that if the

CFS can be made better that usually the mold and MCS become better

based on past experiences. Isn't the Myers cocktail the one given to

AIDS/HIV patients? Is this given to PWC's also? I am seeing my CFS

doctor next week and he wants to give me a diflucan IV, which might

be good for the mold and yeast. I wanted to also talk with him about

getting glutathione IV's and I guess you are getting you Myers IV

from your M.D.? Do you know if the Myers cocktail is covered by

Medicare. I do get a vitamin IV from my doctor but he never mentioned

it was named the Myers one so I need to ask him.

Have you checked to see if any of your vit/supplements have magnesium

stearate? Just curious.

I am also wondering if maybe my medications have magnesium stearate?

I just did my fourth colonic and you can see what is flushing out in

a clear tube, which the irrigations go through, and I noticed this

past time clumps of fecal matter which had small, round white balls

of medicine. I am sure it is my Effexor. I have reduced dosages

before and put the small white balls of medicine in empty gelation

capsules. I am not sure why those did not dissolve in the past?

Bob

[Guest guest]

Hi, Marcia.

>

> Rich,

>

> One thing I've found interesting is that I seem to tolerate all

the supplements that the autism group uses. I'm notoriously

intolerant and have bad reactions to so many meds and supplements,

so I take that as another indication I'm on the right track. Like

Choline, L-Carnitine, SAMe, whey proteins, MSM, just to name a few.

But I started the Taurine almost a year ago at 500mg a day and had

no problems. Then I started TMG not long after that (remember this

was before we knew about any of this in autism) and have always

tolerated it very well. I tolerate the Folinic acid just fine as

well,have taken it about a month now. I think it was starting the

Methyl B12 injections a few months ago that actually started to 'put

it all together' tho.

***That does seem like a good sign that these things are helpful to

you.

I do take oral mag but it just doesn't work like the shots. I had

some mag IM shots from the ND last year and it hurt like crazy and

left huge knots and bruises, so thats just not an option for me. (he

does not mix it with anything for pain) But I do get it once a

month in my Myers IV cocktail, something else that helps me

tremendously.

***I think there might be a problem with magnesium absorption from

the gut. Sorry the shots are so painful. I think you already know

about Dr. Cheney's procedure of adding taurine solution to the

magnesium sulfate (or chloride) in the same syringe, to decrease the

pain.

> I have yet to get further with my merc removal/dental work, but

that will begin again in the next couple months. (my dental

insurance never paid the $760 they owe on the first 4k I had to

spend so thats been another unplanned setback). I'm just furious

about it because they do owe it but keep refusing for one reason,

then another. I will have to make a complaint to our states

insurance commission it looks like.

***I'm sorry they have given you such a hassle.

> Anyway, this has all made a huge diff for me. I had the best

Christmas I've had in many years. I'm not 'well' yet, but I can do

much more than I could last year at this same time, with less pain,

and so far no colds/flus like I was getting so often in past winters.

***It's great to keep hearing good news from you! I think it was

getting to be about your turn to have some!

I still feel something is 'missing' and its probably doing the DMSA

and getting the merc out, do you think?

***I think that's a good possibility, given your history.

So, that also will happen in these next few months (I will begin and

go slow). Do you know offhand what the milligrams rec. for the DMSA

in the autistic kids is? And its given 3 days on and 4 off? I know

my ND won't know and not sure I can muddle through the DAN! website

to find that on my really slow connection.

***In their consensus position paper, they recommend no more than 10

mg per kg body wt. per dose and no more than 30 mg per kg body wt.

per day, with a maximum dose of 500 mg per dose (1500 mg per day

maximum). They say that most doctors dose every 8 hours, but some

do it more frequently, with the same total daily dose. They suggest

a dosing schedule of 3 days on, 11 days off. They also give some

precautions in using DMSA, and I would suggest that you consult

their document for those. It's at

http://www.autismwebsite.com/ari/dan/heavymetals.pdf

I still have the urine collection test to do, something keeps coming

up, had planned it last week but then reading the directions it said

not to consume fish for a full week before doing it (I'd just had

salmon a couple days before), also some supplements (fish oil, etc)

must be avoided as well, so I'm eliminating things and will collect

that and send it off next week to get a baseline metals test before

doing any chelating.

***Sounds good.

Then I still plan to do a course of the oral EDTA before doing DMSA.

My thinking is if there are other heavy metals (which I'm sure there

are with a mouth full of armour) built up, it might be easier to

remove those before going after mercury, as there isn't as much risk

with removing those, is that right? That might 'free up' more

resources to remove mercury is my thinking on that. Do you think

that would cause any problems or is a good idea?

***I think that sounds good. I think you know that Hall is

doing EDTA and DMPS together, and that seems to be working O.K. for

him, but doing EDTA and DMSA in sequence should be fine, too, and

maybe it would be good to clear out some of the other metals first,

since it sounds as though you may have a truckload.

>

> Thanks for your input as always, you're a blessing!

***You're welcome, and I hope this trend keeps right on going.

You're a blessing, too! You're teaching all of us a lot by sharing

your experience.

>

> Marcia

>

Rich

[Guest guest]

Marcia, thanks for the encouragement. I have been told that if the

CFS can be made better that usually the mold and MCS become better

based on past experiences.

Sure hope that will happen for you.

Isn't the Myers cocktail the one given to

AIDS/HIV patients?

that I don't know

Is this given to PWC's also?

Its given to all kinds of patients, it was an MS friend who told me I really

needed to do it and how much it helped her and she was right, it helps me too.

I am seeing my CFS

doctor next week and he wants to give me a diflucan IV, which might

be good for the mold and yeast. I wanted to also talk with him about

getting glutathione IV's and I guess you are getting you Myers IV

from your M.D.?

I dont' have a cfs MD, never had found one close enough to see. Can't afford

to travel and my crappy insurance wouldn't pay for any of it anyway. So I'm

seeing an ND-naturepath (when I can afford it. He's the one doing the IV's and

will dispense me the DMSA and work with me on the metals elimination. He sold me

the methyl B12 as well.

Do you know if the Myers cocktail is covered by

Medicare.

I am not on any medicare/medicaid or SS or any help so I dont' really know.

I do get a vitamin IV from my doctor but he never mentioned

it was named the Myers one so I need to ask him.

You may already be getting it then. Does it help you? Do you see any

difference from it?

Have you checked to see if any of your vit/supplements have magnesium

stearate? Just curious.

MANY of them have it, and my stearic acid and palmitic acid are waaay tooo

high on my organic acids tests and I think thats why! I'm going to have to try

and weed some of them out as much as I can.

I am also wondering if maybe my medications have magnesium stearate?

I wonder if it would be on their website for the drug companies?

I just did my fourth colonic and you can see what is flushing out in

a clear tube, which the irrigations go through, and I noticed this

past time clumps of fecal matter which had small, round white balls

of medicine. I am sure it is my Effexor. I have reduced dosages

before and put the small white balls of medicine in empty gelation

capsules. I am not sure why those did not dissolve in the past?

not sure about that either!

Marcia

[Guest guest]

and Marcia, I doubt that you care! I was just reading this

original post from myself. Boy, we lose our humility with CFS! I use

to hope we had a CFS recovery get together once well but I am not so

sure....lol

Bob

[Guest guest]

Thank you Rich for your response; I am delighted to at last have a

positive test result and a positive course of action. My idea, FWIW,

is to get the mth. cycle restored and then add in Recup and then

perfect health will ensue.....! For anyone in the UK who is reading

this I had the RBC glutathione test done by Biolab in London ( 020

7636 5959) and it only cost £16.

I have ordered some Taurine and my doctor is coming to me next week so

that I can show him what I have printed out about this and I'll see if

he will prescribe Mth B12 injections (I would much rather put a

lozenge under my tongue than a needle in my thigh, of course, but it

would be cheaper option to get jabs from him.)Is Mth B12 power as good?

I saw your comments re B6 and magnesium in your post to Sue, thank

you. How much of each should I take? At the moment I take 2mg of

B6 pyridoxine (=P-5-P?)/day as part of a multi-vit - is that enough

and is it the right sort? I suspect the answer is no to both of those.

And the magnesium: I take about 240mg/day (in a mineral mix, would

take more but the iron in it messes up my stomach) plus the odd Epsom

salt bath, say 1-2/week. Should I increase both of these and should I

take them from the start or add them later?

You say that low L-carnitine may be due to a mth. cycle block - does

that mean that it is a waste of time taking it as a supplement until

that is restored or the opposite, that is, that we need to take loads?

(Am currently taking 1500/day).

I have a general question about the ME/CFS-autism link. While the

majority of autistic children are male, the majority of ME/CFSers are

female which seems curious (to this layperson, anyway)- have you any

thoughts on why that should be?

Many thanks and best wishes

[Guest guest]

Hi, .

>

> Thank you Rich for your response; I am delighted to at last have a

> positive test result and a positive course of action. My idea,

FWIW,

> is to get the mth. cycle restored and then add in Recup and then

> perfect health will ensue.....!

***I like the sound of that " perfect health " part! I hope it works

out just that way for you.

For anyone in the UK who is reading

> this I had the RBC glutathione test done by Biolab in London ( 020

> 7636 5959) and it only cost £16.

***That's less expensive than the price at Immunosciences over

here. I'd say it's a bargain!

> I have ordered some Taurine and my doctor is coming to me next

week so

> that I can show him what I have printed out about this and I'll

see if

> he will prescribe Mth B12 injections (I would much rather put a

> lozenge under my tongue than a needle in my thigh, of course, but

it

> would be cheaper option to get jabs from him.)Is Mth B12 powder as

good?

***Jon Pangborn says on page 270 of the autism treatment book, " If

the autistic person is able to comply, absorption under the tongue

is also effective. An appropriate oral trial dose is 20-40

micrograms per kilogram of body weight for five days. " I think he

means that if it's going to help, you should know after taking it

for five days. I also note that Dr. Jim Neubrander, who has been

the champion of methyl B12 for autism within the DAN! organization,

favors a much longer trial period. He has a website at

http://www.drneubrander.com.

>

> I saw your comments re B6 and magnesium in your post to Sue, thank

> you. How much of each should I take? At the moment I take 2mg of

> B6 pyridoxine (=P-5-P?)/day as part of a multi-vit - is that enough

> and is it the right sort? I suspect the answer is no to both of

those.

***The book recommends going up to 500 mg per day of B6, of which a

small part should be P5P.

> And the magnesium: I take about 240mg/day (in a mineral mix, would

> take more but the iron in it messes up my stomach) plus the odd

Epsom

> salt bath, say 1-2/week. Should I increase both of these and

should I

> take them from the start or add them later?

***I think you can take them from the start. That amount of

magnesium is in the correct ball park, but you might experiment with

it. Some PWCs benefit from larger doses. Eventually it will give

you loose stools as you increase the oral dose of magnesium, because

the excess will not be absorbed. So long as you have normal kidney

function and drink a reasonable amount of water, excess magnesium

should not be a problem for your health, since it will be flushed

out in the urine.

>

> You say that low L-carnitine may be due to a mth. cycle block -

does

> that mean that it is a waste of time taking it as a supplement

until

> that is restored or the opposite, that is, that we need to take

loads?

> (Am currently taking 1500/day).

***I think it is a good idea to take it, because if your body is not

making enough of it, you will not be able to burn fats effectively

for fuel. When your methylation cycle is working properly, your

body should be able to make enough of it, but if the methylation

cycle is blocked, you might not have enough. Pangborn suggests 25

to 100 mg per kg body weight per day, in divided doses.

>

> I have a general question about the ME/CFS-autism link. While the

> majority of autistic children are male, the majority of ME/CFSers

are

> female which seems curious (to this layperson, anyway)- have you

any

> thoughts on why that should be?

***Yes, I do. That's always a fascinating (and controversial)

subject!(:-) I will quote something I just sent to someone

backchannel who asked this same question (and who also happens to be

in Britain!):

" I believe this difference in sex ratio in the two disorders is also

a result of the different ages of onset, or the different trigger.

" Here's what Jon Pangborn says on pages 187-188 of the book about

autism treatments that I cited:

" 'Autism, Sex and Cognitive Abilities

" 'Populations of autistics and autism-spectrum-disordered

individuals have been surveyed for sex distribuition for decades.

Over the years, many different investigators, working with different

subject populations, have come to a similar general conclusion:

More males than females are autistic, by a ratio that's something

like three or four to one. There have been several theories put

forth to explain why:

'Girls get two X chromosomes, boys get one X and one Y. Many

autistic traits have X-linked faults and girls have two chances to

get it right, boys have only one chance.

'Testosterone amplifies the neurotoxicity of mercury, aluminum and

probably other toxics, while estrogen has protective effects.

'Males require more methylation, more homocysteine recycle to

methionine, and more creatine than females because of specific

muscle mass and other physiologic requirements. A defect in

methylation capacity affects males more than females.

'Relevant to the oxidant-stress condition of autism, differences

in innate immunity between human males and females may make males

more prone to inflammation and TNF-alpha elevation than females.

'Males use their brains differently than females for cogitive

activities. Males use gray matter for intensive focus on single

events and tasks, and that's the majority of their thinking

capacity. Females use white matter for integrative comprehension of

multiple events, and that's a majority of their thinking capacity.

If neuronal networks lose synchronization, who suffers most with

integrative tasks? Males do, because they are more limited in this

to begin with. But this may leave the male and a few females with

networks that provide savant or highly-specialized skills in

mathematics, puzzle-solving, art, music, etc.

" 'If you think about this in terms of my glass-breaking story, you

may come to the same conclusion that I have. None of these are

wrong. They're different points of view from different frames of

reference. But the last one is the most comprehensive explanation

that also agrees with the scientific findings that we've come to.

" 'My autistic son can assemble a jigsaw puzzle with the pieces

upside-down faster than I can with the same pieces right-side-up.

He does that by correctly picking the next-fitting piece out of all

the loose pieces, usually on the first try. Many autistics learn by

recognizing shapes. They appear to have built specialized neuronal

networks that may not integrate well with other networks in a

different part of the brain, but that operate very efficiently on

their own. Our task is to fix the broken chemistry so that learning

programs, like ABA, can get them to integrate neuronal networks and

thus gain more integrative mental capabilities.'

" On the other hand, the dominance of females in the prevalence of

CFS involves onsets during the years that the females have a

mentrual cycle. In my poster paper, I advanced the hypothesis that

the monthly endometrial tissue growth in women places an additional

demand on their glutathione capacity, and that that is what biases

them toward a greater prevalence of CFS. I cited a literature

reference supporting the elevation of glutathione peroxidase by

estradiol during part of the menstrual cycle and a decrease in the

endometrial glutathione level during this time. I suggested that

the faster metabolism required for rapid endometrial tissue growth

necessarily produces higher quantities of reactive oxygen species

during this time, and the stimulation of glutathione peroxidase by

estradiol is there to compensate for this. "

>

> Many thanks and best wishes

>

>

***Thank you, , and the same to you!

Rich

[Guest guest]

Hello Rich

500mg per day of B6!! That's 250 times what I am taking, I'll order

some straight away. I like the idea that I might know if B12 is going

to help after only 5 days as Jon Pangborn suggests but if, as you

said, Dr Neubrander recommends a 5 week trial (before adding folinic

acid)I shall have to be patient if nothing happens for a while.

Thanks for your detailed thoughts on the gender differences in autism

and ME/CFS. I am printing out most of this stuff for my doctor.

Spreading the word.

I shall keep you and the list abreast of how I respond to the supplements.

Yours with hope (that I am trying to keep under control)

[Guest guest]

Hi, .

I'm hopeful for you, too!

I would suggest starting low on the B6 and working up. It's

important to make sure that you have a good quality B6 when taking

large doses. Bernie Rimland thinks that the reports of reversible

neuropathy in the fingers from high-dose B6 (gram quantities) may

actually be due to impurities in the B6, not to the B6 itself. He

noted that taking P5P makes this less of a problem, because it is

more highly refined. So I think the DAN! recommendation of going up

to 500 mg of B6, and making part of it P5P is an effort to avoid

problems and still get the benefits at reasonable cost.

Rich

>

> Hello Rich

>

> 500mg per day of B6!! That's 250 times what I am taking, I'll order

> some straight away. I like the idea that I might know if B12 is

going

> to help after only 5 days as Jon Pangborn suggests but if, as you

> said, Dr Neubrander recommends a 5 week trial (before adding

folinic

> acid)I shall have to be patient if nothing happens for a while.

>

> Thanks for your detailed thoughts on the gender differences in

autism

> and ME/CFS. I am printing out most of this stuff for my doctor.

> Spreading the word.

>

> I shall keep you and the list abreast of how I respond to the

supplements.

>

> Yours with hope (that I am trying to keep under control)

>

>

[Guest guest]

Rich, as it will be some time before our book will arrive over here in the UK

could yu please tell me how long you are supposed to take the high B6 for, is it

just for a week or so like the taurine, or is it for the duration of the

treatment? And similarly for the magnesium.

With thanks and my sincere thanks for all your help, you are an angel.

BW,

Sheila

Monday, January 9, 2006, 6:25:38 PM, you wrote:

r> Hi, .

r> I'm hopeful for you, too!

r> I would suggest starting low on the B6 and working up. It's

r> important to make sure that you have a good quality B6 when taking

r> large doses. Bernie Rimland thinks that the reports of reversible

r> neuropathy in the fingers from high-dose B6 (gram quantities) may

r> actually be due to impurities in the B6, not to the B6 itself. He

r> noted that taking P5P makes this less of a problem, because it is

r> more highly refined. So I think the DAN! recommendation of going up

r> to 500 mg of B6, and making part of it P5P is an effort to avoid

r> problems and still get the benefits at reasonable cost.

r> Rich

r>

>> Hello Rich

>>

>> 500mg per day of B6!! That's 250 times what I am taking, I'll order

>> some straight away. I like the idea that I might know if B12 is

r> going

>> to help after only 5 days as Jon Pangborn suggests but if, as you

>> said, Dr Neubrander recommends a 5 week trial (before adding

r> folinic

>> acid)I shall have to be patient if nothing happens for a while.

>>

>> Thanks for your detailed thoughts on the gender differences in

r> autism

>> and ME/CFS. I am printing out most of this stuff for my doctor.

>> Spreading the word.

>>

>> I shall keep you and the list abreast of how I respond to the

r> supplements.

>>

>> Yours with hope (that I am trying to keep under control)

>>

r> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

r> with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested

r> in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

r>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/12/2006 1:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,

blue74730@... writes:

I posted a question to rich on another post, that I read that B2 needed

to be taken with B6. Is that correct.

Bob

Bob

THe cofactor for B6 is MAGNESIUM. And B vitamins should not be taken in

isolation for a long period.

mjh

" The Basil Book "

http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/12/2006 1:42:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,

richvank@... writes:

Bob,

It's a good idea to take all the B vitamins together, because they all

have roles to play in the intermediary metabolism.

Rich

Rich

I understand amino acids are the same way....... individual aminos should be

taken in addition to the full complex in free form.

mjh

" The Basil Book "

http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/

[Guest guest]

>

> Hello Rich

>

> 500mg per day of B6!! That's 250 times what I am taking,

I posted a question to rich on another post, that I read that B2 needed

to be taken with B6. Is that correct.

Bob

[Guest guest]

Bob,

It's a good idea to take all the B vitamins together, because they all

have roles to play in the intermediary metabolism.

Rich

> >

> > Hello Rich

> >

> > 500mg per day of B6!! That's 250 times what I am taking,

>

> I posted a question to rich on another post, that I read that B2

needed

> to be taken with B6. Is that correct.

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

Hi rich

Im going to to purchase the book that you recommended.

Are there any other books that you are looking to purchase in terms of

Autism which will clarify issues linked with CFS - if so which ones?

Regards

CS

[Guest guest]

Hi, mjh.

That's right. Most of the amino acids we consume go into making

proteins, and proteins need a mix of amino acids. If a person takes

too much of only one or a few, the body can't utilize it or them,

and most gets broken down. So having a base of mixed amino acids

will satisfy the need to make protein, and then any amino acids

needed for special reasons can be added on top of that.

Rich

>

>

>

> In a message dated 1/12/2006 1:42:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> richvank@a... writes:

>

> Bob,

>

> It's a good idea to take all the B vitamins together, because they

all

> have roles to play in the intermediary metabolism.

>

> Rich

>

>

> Rich

>

> I understand amino acids are the same way....... individual aminos

should be

> taken in addition to the full complex in free form.

>

>

> mjh

> " The Basil Book "

> http://foxhillfarm.us/FireBasil/

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, CS.

I haven't looked into all the other autism books on the market.

Anything published more than a year ago would have been published

before the work of S. Jill et al. was published in late 2004.

Since that work is so important in helping to understand what is

going on biochemically, I would focus on newer books. It's hard to

beat the one by Pangborn and Baker. I have the earlier book by

Gordon and Yasko entitled " The Puzzle of Autism: Putting It All

Together, " but I think subsequent work has eclipsed it, and I

wouldn't recommend it particularly, though it does have some

interesting info. I'm looking for Amy Yasko to put out something

new, and I think that if she does, it would be worth taking a look

at.

Rich

>

> Hi rich

>

> Im going to to purchase the book that you recommended.

>

> Are there any other books that you are looking to purchase in

terms of

> Autism which will clarify issues linked with CFS - if so which

ones?

>

> Regards

> CS

>

>

>