Re: Mercury toxicity caused WWI & WWII?/jill1313

[Guest guest]

Hi, jill1313

" jill1313 " <jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

>

> WHat were your gene variants, ?

I'd be interested.

***Null for GSTM1, heterozygote for MTHFR and heterzygote for COMT.(All three

are problematic for glutathione building and metablolism).

ANd how much

> was the testing?

***I paid about $325 as I recall back in 2002. I think the price may have come

down at genovations.com who sends the test kits to your residence for you to

do(it's simple) then you send them back to them for analysis. This testing

covers the 5,000 most common genes for possibly having gene variants

predisposing a wide variety of possible health issues and diseases one might

experience over the course a lifetime.

I've avoided gene testing although I might do it

> if/when I try Amy Yasko's approach (I've avoided it because I can

> gather from my family history that there are celiac sensitivity

> genes, mold sensitivity genes, poor methylation genes, and that I got

> all of them apparently)

***I recommend it since it sounds as if she is testing gene variants and

including nutrigenomics for treatment recommendations. Glutathione boosting and

b-12 shots are examples of nutrigenomic therapies. It is very interesting to

get the testing though because it by far trumps family history analysis. It is

totally specific to you, no guess work or wondering which common family genes

for disease you have or don't have.

<davidhall@w...> wrote:

> >

> > Hi, Marcia.

> >

> >

> >

> > Yes. I think this well developed outline explains a lot of miscief

> for CFS and other illnesses, insane wars included. I can think of

> many people I've known who committed suicide, had trouble with the

> law or are still chronically ill where I'm sure mercury was or has

> never been suspected but nevertheless may indeed have been the root

> problem. In my case, I think the gene variants I found through

> http://www.genovations.com testing and the resulting lifetime of low

> glutathione set me up for mercury toxicity from the most ordinary

> levels of exposure.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , " Marcia " <mgrahn@t...> wrote:

> > >

> > > WOW, this is excellent, really ties so much together thats

> been happening in 'cfs' for so long, especially for me. Its about

> time people became aware of the places we get mercury. I remember

> some discussions about taking ACE on this list and it was pulled from

> the US market because it contains mercury! Even our 'cures' can kill

> us! This page is definitely a must read! I know my case is a

> mercury poisoning now that they pulled that leaking merc filling out

> the base of a root of a tooth, under the gumline, had been poisoning

> me for decades. Explains how it blocks the ATP and mitochondrial

> functions and affects the organs, etc. Eating leafy green vegetables

> isn't going to fix this problem! (which I nearly eat my weight in

> and always did)

> > >

> > > thanks for sending this.

> > >

> > > Marcia

> > > Mercury toxicity caused WWI & WWII?

> > >

> > >

> > > The correct and direct url for this is:

> > >

> > >

> > > http://www.pbraunmd.org/mercury.htm

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree, she offers solutions. Although as I said, when I

watched her lecture, I found I was doing many of the solutions on my

own because I noticed I felt better when I did them. Excess magnesium

(IV), less calcium, theanine (green tea decaf), IV glutathione, no

trytophan etc etc. So my body sort of tells me, but that doesn't mean

I've figured my way out of this maze. I'd like to try their RNA

therapies and see if I can dump metals that way--its my feeling that

then my body is doing at the rate IT wants to, and won't be

overwhelmed by a chelator pulling more out than it can handle or

excrete on its own. That is my concern, I do NOT want to remobilize

and deposit and that DOES happen to individuals.

You say you had 3 genes associated with glutathione problems. Do you

think those who have such rpoblems have clusters? I'd expect so,

because if only one was weak, others could pitch in.

Still, genetically testing the family woudl be interesting too .

> > > >

> > > > WOW, this is excellent, really ties so much together

thats

> > been happening in 'cfs' for so long, especially for me. Its about

> > time people became aware of the places we get mercury. I remember

> > some discussions about taking ACE on this list and it was pulled

from

> > the US market because it contains mercury! Even our 'cures' can

kill

> > us! This page is definitely a must read! I know my case is a

> > mercury poisoning now that they pulled that leaking merc filling

out

> > the base of a root of a tooth, under the gumline, had been

poisoning

> > me for decades. Explains how it blocks the ATP and mitochondrial

> > functions and affects the organs, etc. Eating leafy green

vegetables

> > isn't going to fix this problem! (which I nearly eat my weight

in

> > and always did)

> > > >

> > > > thanks for sending this.

> > > >

> > > > Marcia

> > > > Mercury toxicity caused WWI &

WWII?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The correct and direct url for this is:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > http://www.pbraunmd.org/mercury.htm

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Do you need a doctor to get this testing done? If not, will the lab

give you some kind of interpretation of the results?

thanks,

Helen

> > > >

> > > > WOW, this is excellent, really ties so much together

thats

> > been happening in 'cfs' for so long, especially for me. Its about

> > time people became aware of the places we get mercury. I remember

> > some discussions about taking ACE on this list and it was pulled

from

> > the US market because it contains mercury! Even our 'cures' can

kill

> > us! This page is definitely a must read! I know my case is a

> > mercury poisoning now that they pulled that leaking merc filling

out

> > the base of a root of a tooth, under the gumline, had been

poisoning

> > me for decades. Explains how it blocks the ATP and mitochondrial

> > functions and affects the organs, etc. Eating leafy green

vegetables

> > isn't going to fix this problem! (which I nearly eat my weight

in

> > and always did)

> > > >

> > > > thanks for sending this.

> > > >

> > > > Marcia

> > > > Mercury toxicity caused WWI &

WWII?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The correct and direct url for this is:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > http://www.pbraunmd.org/mercury.htm

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

" jill1313 " <jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

, did you make any changes in any protocol as a result? Just

curious.

***I am all about the glutathione building as a result. There are some

medications I now know I should avoid and other medications, that perhaps

another person should never take, that my genetics show my body might respond to

quite well. The tests made clear that TNFa upregulation would probably not ever

be a big concern for me and that my genes for SOD were perfect, quite opposite

one hypothesis by a doc who stated he thought problems with SOD genes may be the

core problem with PWCs. So this testing can help one rule out some theories of

cause that have been stated about CFS in general.

[Guest guest]

" jill1313 " <jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

> You say you had 3 genes associated with glutathione problems. Do you

> think those who have such rpoblems have clusters? I'd expect so,

> because if only one was weak, others could pitch in.

***Don't know what you mean by clusters? You'd need to clarify.

Some weak gene variants can be compensated by other gene strengths, but

sometimes the only thing that will help is a nutriceutical that specifically

makes up for a deficit.

An example of this is the supplement Folapro(or methyltetrahydrofolatereductase)

specifically makes up for the deficit created by a homozygote or heterzygote

gene variant of the MTHFR gene.

> > " jill1313 " <jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

> > >

> > > WHat were your gene variants, ?

> > I'd be interested.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***Null for GSTM1, heterozygote for MTHFR and heterzygote for COMT.

> (All three are problematic for glutathione building and metablolism).

> >

> >

> >

> > ANd how much

> > > was the testing?

> >

> >

> >

> > ***I paid about $325 as I recall back in 2002. I think the price

> may have come down at genovations.com who sends the test kits to your

> residence for you to do(it's simple) then you send them back to them

> for analysis. This testing covers the 5,000 most common genes for

> possibly having gene variants predisposing a wide variety of possible

> health issues and diseases one might experience over the course a

> lifetime.

> >

> >

> >

> > I've avoided gene testing although I might do it

> > > if/when I try Amy Yasko's approach (I've avoided it because I can

> > > gather from my family history that there are celiac sensitivity

> > > genes, mold sensitivity genes, poor methylation genes, and that I

> got

> > > all of them apparently)

> >

> >

> >

> > ***I recommend it since it sounds as if she is testing gene

> variants and including nutrigenomics for treatment recommendations.

> Glutathione boosting and b-12 shots are examples of nutrigenomic

> therapies. It is very interesting to get the testing though because

> it by far trumps family history analysis. It is totally specific to

> you, no guess work or wondering which common family genes for disease

> you have or don't have.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I meant you said all 3 were implicated in your glutathione issues.

since genes work in concert anyway, its likely you'd need a couple of

problems to manifest something clinically--except in cases where one

gene is so screwed up it creates a disease all on its own.

I probably should take that test or Yasko's. First I'm going to do my

cleansing routine. One thing at a time.

> > > >

> > > > WHat were your gene variants, ?

> > > I'd be interested.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***Null for GSTM1, heterozygote for MTHFR and heterzygote for

COMT.

> > (All three are problematic for glutathione building and

metablolism).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ANd how much

> > > > was the testing?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***I paid about $325 as I recall back in 2002. I think the

price

> > may have come down at genovations.com who sends the test kits to

your

> > residence for you to do(it's simple) then you send them back to

them

> > for analysis. This testing covers the 5,000 most common genes

for

> > possibly having gene variants predisposing a wide variety of

possible

> > health issues and diseases one might experience over the course a

> > lifetime.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I've avoided gene testing although I might do it

> > > > if/when I try Amy Yasko's approach (I've avoided it because I

can

> > > > gather from my family history that there are celiac

sensitivity

> > > > genes, mold sensitivity genes, poor methylation genes, and

that I

> > got

> > > > all of them apparently)

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***I recommend it since it sounds as if she is testing gene

> > variants and including nutrigenomics for treatment

recommendations.

> > Glutathione boosting and b-12 shots are examples of nutrigenomic

> > therapies. It is very interesting to get the testing though

because

> > it by far trumps family history analysis. It is totally specific

to

> > you, no guess work or wondering which common family genes for

disease

> > you have or don't have.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

" jill1313 " <jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

>

> I meant you said all 3 were implicated in your glutathione issues.

> since genes work in concert anyway, its likely you'd need a couple of

> problems to manifest something clinically--except in cases where one

> gene is so screwed up it creates a disease all on its own.

***Thanks for the clarification. I see what you are getting at now. Each one of

the gene variants I mentioned I have and discovered through genovations.com

testing can each, irrespective of the others, lead to glutathione problems.

Their mechanisms for leading to this are different for each one of course but

just having one of those should give rise to suspicions pertaining to

glutathione. And the fact that I show those three gene variants that can do

this does more greatly suggest that glutathione depletion illnesses

(Autism, CFS, Alzheimer's, Cardiomyopathy, etc) and conditions(intracellular

infection and heavy metal toxicity- mercury especially) will arise at some point

during the course of a lifetime.

> <davidhall@w...> wrote:

> >

> > " jill1313 " <jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

> > > You say you had 3 genes associated with glutathione problems. Do

> you

> > > think those who have such rpoblems have clusters? I'd expect so,

> > > because if only one was weak, others could pitch in.

> >

> >

> >

> > ***Don't know what you mean by clusters? You'd need to clarify.

> > Some weak gene variants can be compensated by other gene strengths,

> but sometimes the only thing that will help is a nutriceutical that

> specifically makes up for a deficit.

> > An example of this is the supplement Folapro(or

> methyltetrahydrofolatereductase) specifically makes up for the

> deficit created by a homozygote or heterzygote gene variant of the

> MTHFR gene.

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

That last comment of yours presents a big dilemma for me, one I have

been pondering.

My maternal grandmother had Parkinson's, and eventually ended her

life over it. My maternal aunt had celiac sprue, and later all kinds

of health issues including alcoholism that I think would've all not

happened had she not been told she'd grown out of her sprue and could

eat gluten. My mother has had health issues as well including

digestive, endocrine and other stuff. Both aunt and mother had

endocrine issues, as did other women on that side of the family back

a little further. SO did I. Aunt had a hard time getting pregnant, so

did I...in fact at the time in my life when I was ready and " trying "

it never happened.

My mother reacted so badly to anesthesia while giving birth to me she

had fibrillations.

Of course none of them had lyme/babesia, so their lives were much

healthier overall.

From my father's side I suspect I got mold sensitivity, and dog/cat

allergies. Dad had asthma. But most on my father's side are pretty

healthy.

But...I figure there were celiac genes, poor methylation, and who

knows what else. So some issues I've had in my life I attribute to

undiagnosed celiac sensitivity--same with all these women mentioned

above. I finally figured THAT part out.

And certainly I noticed the first downturn in my health after mercury

fillings, when braces were removed. At the same time, menstrual cycle

was delayed (its my belief it was celiac related) and I was given

hormones. And cortisone for bowel issues that once again I believe

were undiagnosed celiac. So clearly I was prepped with some health

issues prior to lyme through bad medicine. I *know* the mercury

harmed me (in the fillings).

Still, had I not encountered lyme at 21, and then lyme/babesia again

later on, I think I would've been pretty healthy. I certainly was in

college, except for relatively moderate gut issues that I'm sure were

gluten related. So, I'm not sure how inevitable these illnesses are.

I really do think the body is resilient in spite of genetic variation

unless it receives multiple assaults which may just be modern life

AND bad luck. I easily could've NOT been bitten by a tick. I don't go

camping. I don't hike much in the northeast. I could've gone to a

different house that summer at age 21 at Yale...one in town, no

ticks, my whole life would've been different. Same for more recent

and much more virulent tickbite that also had babesia...I could've

decided not to visit, and almost did cancel the visit. Or stood a

foot away from whatever tick did bite me and it wouldn't have had

time to reach me. It's really a case of luck there.

Yasko gives the metaphor of Princess Di. Had the papparazi not been

chasing, the chauffer not drunk, the weather not bad, the tunnel not

that long, her seatbelt unfastened, etc etc--had ONE thing been

different, just one, she'd be alive.

So I tend to attribute the problems more to environment. The

vulnerabilities are there--but its modern life, too. I mean for the

autistic kids look at the # of unecessary vaccines they're assaulted

with. Its just $ for the pharmas.

Funny thing is, in highschool I used to make breadless sandwiches for

lunch even tho I was skinny. My fatter girlfriends thought I was

trying to go on a diet and couldn't figure it out. I said, No, wheat

makes me tired. I didn't know more than that. I'd figured it out but

didn't know why. And I really wanted to ask for white fillings, I

recall distinctly wanting to ask my mother if I could have white

fillings when my braces were taken off. Really wish I'd asked! But

they were costlier and I thought she would say no.

In any case, once you do get sick its probably good to know the

details. Except I also think if you just do trial and error and pay

attention to your reactions you often end up with what is right for

you.

> > > > You say you had 3 genes associated with glutathione problems.

Do

> > you

> > > > think those who have such rpoblems have clusters? I'd expect

so,

> > > > because if only one was weak, others could pitch in.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ***Don't know what you mean by clusters? You'd need to clarify.

> > > Some weak gene variants can be compensated by other gene

strengths,

> > but sometimes the only thing that will help is a nutriceutical

that

> > specifically makes up for a deficit.

> > > An example of this is the supplement Folapro(or

> > methyltetrahydrofolatereductase) specifically makes up for the

> > deficit created by a homozygote or heterzygote gene variant of

the

> > MTHFR gene.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know much about celiac, but in case you didn't know, Shoemaker talks a

fair amount about people who are sensitive to mold toxins getting antigliadin

antibodies. He says yes, some people have celiac disease, but others just have

these antigliadin antibodies. If you solve the mold toxin problem and go on a

no-amylose diet (which is no gluten) they get much better.

Since you have continuing problems with Lyme and celiac type symptoms, it

wouldn't surprise me if you were one of the " multisusceptible " gene types.

Not trying to say this is all definitely true, but thought you might want to

read up on it.

Doris

----- Original Message -----

But...I figure there were celiac genes, poor methylation, and who

knows what else. So some issues I've had in my life I attribute to

undiagnosed celiac sensitivity--same with all these women mentioned

above. I finally figured THAT part out.

Still, had I not encountered lyme at 21, and then lyme/babesia again

later on, I think I would've been pretty healthy. I certainly was in

college, except for relatively moderate gut issues that I'm sure were

gluten related.

[Guest guest]

I don't have the antibodies...those tests are not too good. I ate

only a small amount of wheat at the time I was tested. Yo need to be

eating the equivalent of 4 pieces of bread a day. You really need to

test for the genes, but I don't need to, as I can tell from my family

history, and yes of course, I would be shocked if I did not end up

with some celiac genes, some HLA subtype associated with chronic

lyme, AND mold sensitivity genes. And methylation defects and

glutathione issues.

I am not sure what I think of Shoemaker--brilliant but HUGE ego and

too rash in some of his claims.

>

> I don't know much about celiac, but in case you didn't know,

Shoemaker talks a fair amount about people who are sensitive to mold

toxins getting antigliadin antibodies. He says yes, some people have

celiac disease, but others just have these antigliadin antibodies.

If you solve the mold toxin problem and go on a no-amylose diet

(which is no gluten) they get much better.

>

> Since you have continuing problems with Lyme and celiac type

symptoms, it wouldn't surprise me if you were one of

the " multisusceptible " gene types.

>

> Not trying to say this is all definitely true, but thought you

might want to read up on it.

> Doris

> ----- Original Message -----

>

> But...I figure there were celiac genes, poor methylation, and who

> knows what else. So some issues I've had in my life I attribute

to

> undiagnosed celiac sensitivity--same with all these women

mentioned

> above. I finally figured THAT part out.

>

> Still, had I not encountered lyme at 21, and then lyme/babesia

again

> later on, I think I would've been pretty healthy. I certainly was

in

> college, except for relatively moderate gut issues that I'm sure

were

> gluten related.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I would be shocked if I did not end up

> with some celiac genes, some HLA subtype associated with chronic

> lyme, AND mold sensitivity genes. And methylation defects and

> glutathione issues.

>

>

I did all of Shoemaker's tests in desperation after having my third

major mold exposure in a rented house. I was positive I must have the

worst possible mold genes, as well as the antigliadin antibodies.

As it turned out, I do not have any of the mold genes, but do have the

ones he considers susceptible to Lyme. When I consulted with

Shoemaker, he told me that any exposure to a potential neurotoxin

could trigger a susceptibility to all the others. So my Lyme infection

has set me up to react to everything else.

This makes sense in my case, because my initial presentation is

confusing, showing classic Lyme symptoms, minus the bull's eye, when I

moved into my first moldy environment.

Did the mold exposure trigger a latent Lyme infection? Did the Lyme

infection trigger the mold reaction, which no one else in the house

got so sick from? I can definitely count my MCS from that date.

I have been on the CSM for two months now, and seeing a tremendous

improvement, especially in pain levels. I started treatment for the

nasal Staph carriage one month ago, and had another jump forward.

Reading on this list about the woman who did so well on the treatments

and then relapsed is scary, so I would like to know more about that,

because this is the first time in 13 years that I could imagine a true

remission.

Anyway, just wanted to say, the genetic thing is more complex than we

even know, yet. Still, it has been really helpful to me, so far,and I

hope to keep learning in order to keep improving.

[Guest guest]

Glad for you, SUsan.

DOn't like CSM myself--makes me burp, and also, the dosing schedule

is trying because it absorbs good vitamins and minerals so nowhere

near food and I tend to snack all the time, because of latent

hypoglycemia.

My mold IgG from Marinkovich was so off the charts that I can't

imagine I don't have the mold genes.

> >

> > I would be shocked if I did not end up

> > with some celiac genes, some HLA subtype associated with chronic

> > lyme, AND mold sensitivity genes. And methylation defects and

> > glutathione issues.

> >

> >

>

> I did all of Shoemaker's tests in desperation after having my third

> major mold exposure in a rented house. I was positive I must have

the

> worst possible mold genes, as well as the antigliadin antibodies.

>

> As it turned out, I do not have any of the mold genes, but do have

the

> ones he considers susceptible to Lyme. When I consulted with

> Shoemaker, he told me that any exposure to a potential neurotoxin

> could trigger a susceptibility to all the others. So my Lyme

infection

> has set me up to react to everything else.

>

> This makes sense in my case, because my initial presentation is

> confusing, showing classic Lyme symptoms, minus the bull's eye,

when I

> moved into my first moldy environment.

>

> Did the mold exposure trigger a latent Lyme infection? Did the Lyme

> infection trigger the mold reaction, which no one else in the house

> got so sick from? I can definitely count my MCS from that date.

>

> I have been on the CSM for two months now, and seeing a tremendous

> improvement, especially in pain levels. I started treatment for the

> nasal Staph carriage one month ago, and had another jump forward.

> Reading on this list about the woman who did so well on the

treatments

> and then relapsed is scary, so I would like to know more about that,

> because this is the first time in 13 years that I could imagine a

true

> remission.

>

> Anyway, just wanted to say, the genetic thing is more complex than

we

> even know, yet. Still, it has been really helpful to me, so far,and

I

> hope to keep learning in order to keep improving.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Glad for you, SUsan.

> DOn't like CSM myself--makes me burp, and also, the dosing schedule

> is trying because it absorbs good vitamins and minerals so nowhere

> near food and I tend to snack all the time, because of latent

> hypoglycemia.

>

> My mold IgG from Marinkovich was so off the charts that I can't

> imagine I don't have the mold genes.

My IgG from Marinkovitch was also off the charts. He told me it was

the highest he had ever seen. I think he and Shoemaker are looking at

very different things. Shoe doesn't think the antibody tests are worth

anything, but there was a point when it was clear I was infected, not

just toxic. Sporanox caused tremendous herxing, and then resolution of

very specific symptoms. I've tried to talk to Shoemaker about the

information Marinkovitch has, which could be an important, overlooked

piece of the puzzle.

But anyway, apparently, high antibody response does not necessarily

mean your HLA will fit Shoe's profile as mold susceptible.

It was because I did not have the same kind of symptoms this time that

I decided to look into Shoemaker's ideas. That, and the thought of

being on Sporanox for the rest of my life! My osteopath is looking

into doing some studies on whether modified citrus pectin might have a

similar result in clearing toxins as the CSM.

I have the same concerns as you about the cholestyramine. But I was

going so extremely down hill last winter, that it seemed worth a try.

Once I am cleary out of the woods, we will use my labs to track how

well the MCP does as a substitute. It seems much more benign to take

in the long run than CSM, and it does look as though it will be the

long run. Even if I can get rid of all mold exposure, I still have the

neurotoxin exposure from any Lyme or coinfections that I kill off in

my battle with those chronic infections.

[Guest guest]

>

> It did nothing. It can be constipating for some folks too so watch

out for that, altho it didn't constipate me. It was another

disappointment for me as it was the 'cure of the month' at the time

:-/, I had let my hopes get too high.

>

> Marcia

>

Yes, it is constipating. You can take magnesium or Vit C to help with

that. I know other people who had no results from it. That is why I

waited so long to give it a try. Even then, I waited, did the whole

slew of testing Shoemaker recommends to see what made sense.

Everything that came back fit perfectly with what was going on for me.

The protocol is not just taking CSM, and even that has to be done

correctly.

Now I think its hard to know how many people really failed the

protocol, and how many shouldn't have even started it because they

didn't need it, and how many failed because they didn't do it

correctly. So few doctors understand it, and are willing to do all the

steps. Mine has complained all the way, but its hard to argue with the

kind of success I have had. But I don't think it is the answer for

everybody. And I have no idea if my improvement will last. But I'm

grateful for it however long it does.

[Guest guest]

So you had off the charts mold sensitivity, chronic fungal infection,

and no mold genes?

I can't decide whether the chronic fungal infection, which is

downstream from lyme infection, is simply opportunistic, or because

lyme downregulates toll like receptors and in some of us who have

vulnerable genes makes us very vulnerable to fungus, OR whether ticks

have fungal organisms in them too. Wouldn't put it past the suckers!

> >

> > Glad for you, SUsan.

> > DOn't like CSM myself--makes me burp, and also, the dosing

schedule

> > is trying because it absorbs good vitamins and minerals so

nowhere

> > near food and I tend to snack all the time, because of latent

> > hypoglycemia.

> >

> > My mold IgG from Marinkovich was so off the charts that I can't

> > imagine I don't have the mold genes.

>

> My IgG from Marinkovitch was also off the charts. He told me it was

> the highest he had ever seen. I think he and Shoemaker are looking

at

> very different things. Shoe doesn't think the antibody tests are

worth

> anything, but there was a point when it was clear I was infected,

not

> just toxic. Sporanox caused tremendous herxing, and then resolution

of

> very specific symptoms. I've tried to talk to Shoemaker about the

> information Marinkovitch has, which could be an important,

overlooked

> piece of the puzzle.

>

> But anyway, apparently, high antibody response does not necessarily

> mean your HLA will fit Shoe's profile as mold susceptible.

>

> It was because I did not have the same kind of symptoms this time

that

> I decided to look into Shoemaker's ideas. That, and the thought of

> being on Sporanox for the rest of my life! My osteopath is looking

> into doing some studies on whether modified citrus pectin might

have a

> similar result in clearing toxins as the CSM.

>

> I have the same concerns as you about the cholestyramine. But I was

> going so extremely down hill last winter, that it seemed worth a

try.

> Once I am cleary out of the woods, we will use my labs to track how

> well the MCP does as a substitute. It seems much more benign to take

> in the long run than CSM, and it does look as though it will be the

> long run. Even if I can get rid of all mold exposure, I still have

the

> neurotoxin exposure from any Lyme or coinfections that I kill off in

> my battle with those chronic infections.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

P.S. Riversinger...why would you have tos tay on sporonox for the rest

of your life, but if you take CSM/actos you won't--or am I

misunderstanding? Thanx.

[Guest guest]

>

> So you had off the charts mold sensitivity, chronic fungal infection,

> and no mold genes?

Yep! I do have the genes for Lyme susceptibility and a tendency to low

MSH with neurotoxin damage. And, I'm not sure about " chronic " fungal

infections, as they seem to have been there, and now are not.

Marinkovitch talks about three kinds of reactions to mold. Allergies,

colonization (infection), and toxicity reactions due to neurotoxic

elements. The colonization, he thinks, is most common on the skin and

mucous membranes, sinuses, lungs, and gut. It is more likely on areas

that have previous injury.

I had very specific sinus, gut and lung symptoms that he felt were

colonizations, but that I also was showing toxicity reactions. That

the people who were colonized were the ones who stay sick even when

they get away from the mold exposure, because really they carry the

exposure with them. That is when he treats with antifungals.

The asthma like symptoms that he felt showed a lung infection went

away on Sporanox, and have never returned. Also, the sinus, and mouth

pain that went with a possible sinus infection have not come back, in

spite of this more recent exposure. It is possible that differnt

fungal organisms are more or less likley to colonize, and this

exposure may have been with a different species than the last.

Interestingly, Candida species are the one fungal species I do NOT

have trouble with, shown by the much lower IgG as well as by symptoms,

in spite of two years of Lyme treatment.

This more recent exposure, I did not have the symptoms I had with the

colonization. It felt more like the toxicity that lingered in the last

exposure. That is why I became interested in Shoemaker's ideas.

Marinkovitch doesn't really have a treatment for toxicity, at least

the last I heard. And, of course, Shoemaker doesn't believe that

colonization is very common. He was very surprised when I told him

what happened for me in treatment.

>

> I can't decide whether the chronic fungal infection, which is

> downstream from lyme infection, is simply opportunistic, or because

> lyme downregulates toll like receptors and in some of us who have

> vulnerable genes makes us very vulnerable to fungus, OR whether ticks

> have fungal organisms in them too. Wouldn't put it past the suckers

You might find it worth reading Shoemaker's newer book. He has a

pretty detailed theory on the chemistry of how Lyme or mold can make

us more vulnerable to damage from other neurotoxin producers. He has

come a long way from Desperation Medicine. He is looking at multiple

endocrine/cytokine pathways that can be disrupted, and has a variety

of interventions now. He doesn't have everything figured out, by any

means. And he still believes three weeks of antibiotics will treat Lyme.

In spite of that, the theory at least hangs together, and I am pleased

with the improvements I am seeing. I still have very low VEGF,

non-existent MSH, dysregulated cortisol and ADH, and high C3a

complement. I'm not sure how long it will take to kick the Staph. But

I'm down to 40mg of oxycontin a day, from 200. I'm planning how to

wean off Topamax, once I finish weaning down the oxy. I'm sleeping

better, and very slowly gaining strength back. I'm pretty happy with that.

[Guest guest]

low dose naltrexone, a pretty much side effect free cheap medicine

could in theory bring the MSH-alpha up. LDN ends up creating more

beta-endorphins and MSH shares the same precursor as beta-endorphin

and I think the way LDN does it upstream is by increases expression

of proopiomelanocortin or whatever its called (the precursor to both

of them).

Its worth a trial at least, then retest after 3-6 months.

> >

> > So you had off the charts mold sensitivity, chronic fungal

infection,

> > and no mold genes?

>

> Yep! I do have the genes for Lyme susceptibility and a tendency to

low

> MSH with neurotoxin damage. And, I'm not sure about " chronic "

fungal

> infections, as they seem to have been there, and now are not.

>

> Marinkovitch talks about three kinds of reactions to mold.

Allergies,

> colonization (infection), and toxicity reactions due to neurotoxic

> elements. The colonization, he thinks, is most common on the skin

and

> mucous membranes, sinuses, lungs, and gut. It is more likely on

areas

> that have previous injury.

>

> I had very specific sinus, gut and lung symptoms that he felt were

> colonizations, but that I also was showing toxicity reactions. That

> the people who were colonized were the ones who stay sick even when

> they get away from the mold exposure, because really they carry the

> exposure with them. That is when he treats with antifungals.

>

> The asthma like symptoms that he felt showed a lung infection went

> away on Sporanox, and have never returned. Also, the sinus, and

mouth

> pain that went with a possible sinus infection have not come back,

in

> spite of this more recent exposure. It is possible that differnt

> fungal organisms are more or less likley to colonize, and this

> exposure may have been with a different species than the last.

>

> Interestingly, Candida species are the one fungal species I do NOT

> have trouble with, shown by the much lower IgG as well as by

symptoms,

> in spite of two years of Lyme treatment.

>

> This more recent exposure, I did not have the symptoms I had with

the

> colonization. It felt more like the toxicity that lingered in the

last

> exposure. That is why I became interested in Shoemaker's ideas.

> Marinkovitch doesn't really have a treatment for toxicity, at least

> the last I heard. And, of course, Shoemaker doesn't believe that

> colonization is very common. He was very surprised when I told him

> what happened for me in treatment.

> >

> > I can't decide whether the chronic fungal infection, which is

> > downstream from lyme infection, is simply opportunistic, or

because

> > lyme downregulates toll like receptors and in some of us who

have

> > vulnerable genes makes us very vulnerable to fungus, OR whether

ticks

> > have fungal organisms in them too. Wouldn't put it past the

suckers

>

>

> You might find it worth reading Shoemaker's newer book. He has a

> pretty detailed theory on the chemistry of how Lyme or mold can

make

> us more vulnerable to damage from other neurotoxin producers. He

has

> come a long way from Desperation Medicine. He is looking at

multiple

> endocrine/cytokine pathways that can be disrupted, and has a

variety

> of interventions now. He doesn't have everything figured out, by

any

> means. And he still believes three weeks of antibiotics will treat

Lyme.

>

> In spite of that, the theory at least hangs together, and I am

pleased

> with the improvements I am seeing. I still have very low VEGF,

> non-existent MSH, dysregulated cortisol and ADH, and high C3a

> complement. I'm not sure how long it will take to kick the Staph.

But

> I'm down to 40mg of oxycontin a day, from 200. I'm planning how to

> wean off Topamax, once I finish weaning down the oxy. I'm sleeping

> better, and very slowly gaining strength back. I'm pretty happy

with that.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> P.S. Riversinger...why would you have tos tay on sporonox for the rest

> of your life, but if you take CSM/actos you won't--or am I

> misunderstanding? Thanx.

>

It seems like it takes only a very tiny exposure to mold to make me

sick now. It is almost impossible to avoid mold totally, especially

out in CA, where I live. If Sporanox, or some other antifungal is the

only available treatment, it looks to me like I'm stuck with it for a

long time. Every time you get colonized you have to treat for at least

6-9 months. By then I'm on to the next exposure!

With CSM, I may have to take that forever, too. That is why I want to

see if the modified citrus pectin, or some other binder might work,

cause I don't like the idea of CSM forever, either. Too hard on the

body. BTW, I never took Actos. Because I had the full range of tests,

we found my Leptin was too low to use Actos. Actos is only used to

lower MMP-9 and Leptin. High leptin is bad, but you need some to

trigger MSH production, so if it is low, you don't want to take Actos.

Anyway, as long as I am treating Lyme or coinfections, I will need

some kind of neurotoxin binder to remove the endotoxin from the dead

bacteria. And whenever I have mold exposures, I'll need the same. Not

great, but better than needing it, and not knowing.

I'm reading Buhner's book on Healing Lyme now, and he claims some of

the herbs affect VEGF, MMP-9, complement, and some of the other

factors in Ritchie's neurotoxin pathway. It would be interesting to

see how some of those work, over time. Looks like I have a lifetime to

experiment. Buhner even claims smilax (sarasparilla) is an

endotoxin binder. Don't know if his definition of endotoxin is the

same as Shoe's, but it is worth looking into.

[Guest guest]

>

> low dose naltrexone, a pretty much side effect free cheap medicine

> could in theory bring the MSH-alpha up. LDN ends up creating more

> beta-endorphins and MSH shares the same precursor as beta-endorphin

> and I think the way LDN does it upstream is by increases expression

> of proopiomelanocortin or whatever its called (the precursor to both

> of them).

>

> Its worth a trial at least, then retest after 3-6 months.

Thanks! I am waiting to retest MSH after the most recent protocol, to

see if there was any improvement. I'll keep the naltrexone in mind, if

it looks like it isn't coming back on its own.

[Guest guest]

Well it's really good youre improving and persisting.

I just avoid Shoemaker for now. For various reasons I somewhat

distrust his approach and I don't really want to read his book. Now,

maybe someday I'll regret that and wish I'd done it sooner .

But for now, no. If I'm going to pay for anything it would be the

Yasko/Gordon protocol. Everything they say makes such good sense to

me. A lot of stuff Shoemaker says doesn't. For instance, I do not

think the body is unable to eliminate neurotoxins, I think CSM is

mostly symptomatic treatment. Once you eliminate the infections, the

endotoxins go, too.

-- In , " riversinger48 "

<sfriedl@s...> wrote:

>

>

> >

> > So you had off the charts mold sensitivity, chronic fungal

infection,

> > and no mold genes?

>

> Yep! I do have the genes for Lyme susceptibility and a tendency to

low

> MSH with neurotoxin damage. And, I'm not sure about " chronic " fungal

> infections, as they seem to have been there, and now are not.

>

> Marinkovitch talks about three kinds of reactions to mold.

Allergies,

> colonization (infection), and toxicity reactions due to neurotoxic

> elements. The colonization, he thinks, is most common on the skin

and

> mucous membranes, sinuses, lungs, and gut. It is more likely on

areas

> that have previous injury.

>

> I had very specific sinus, gut and lung symptoms that he felt were

> colonizations, but that I also was showing toxicity reactions. That

> the people who were colonized were the ones who stay sick even when

> they get away from the mold exposure, because really they carry the

> exposure with them. That is when he treats with antifungals.

>

> The asthma like symptoms that he felt showed a lung infection went

> away on Sporanox, and have never returned. Also, the sinus, and

mouth

> pain that went with a possible sinus infection have not come back,

in

> spite of this more recent exposure. It is possible that differnt

> fungal organisms are more or less likley to colonize, and this

> exposure may have been with a different species than the last.

>

> Interestingly, Candida species are the one fungal species I do NOT

> have trouble with, shown by the much lower IgG as well as by

symptoms,

> in spite of two years of Lyme treatment.

>

> This more recent exposure, I did not have the symptoms I had with

the

> colonization. It felt more like the toxicity that lingered in the

last

> exposure. That is why I became interested in Shoemaker's ideas.

> Marinkovitch doesn't really have a treatment for toxicity, at least

> the last I heard. And, of course, Shoemaker doesn't believe that

> colonization is very common. He was very surprised when I told him

> what happened for me in treatment.

> >

> > I can't decide whether the chronic fungal infection, which is

> > downstream from lyme infection, is simply opportunistic, or

because

> > lyme downregulates toll like receptors and in some of us who have

> > vulnerable genes makes us very vulnerable to fungus, OR whether

ticks

> > have fungal organisms in them too. Wouldn't put it past the

suckers

>

>

> You might find it worth reading Shoemaker's newer book. He has a

> pretty detailed theory on the chemistry of how Lyme or mold can make

> us more vulnerable to damage from other neurotoxin producers. He has

> come a long way from Desperation Medicine. He is looking at multiple

> endocrine/cytokine pathways that can be disrupted, and has a variety

> of interventions now. He doesn't have everything figured out, by any

> means. And he still believes three weeks of antibiotics will treat

Lyme.

>

> In spite of that, the theory at least hangs together, and I am

pleased

> with the improvements I am seeing. I still have very low VEGF,

> non-existent MSH, dysregulated cortisol and ADH, and high C3a

> complement. I'm not sure how long it will take to kick the Staph.

But

> I'm down to 40mg of oxycontin a day, from 200. I'm planning how to

> wean off Topamax, once I finish weaning down the oxy. I'm sleeping

> better, and very slowly gaining strength back. I'm pretty happy

with that.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

<jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

>

> Well it's really good youre improving and persisting.

> I just avoid Shoemaker for now. For various reasons I somewhat

> distrust his approach and I don't really want to read his book.

Now, maybe someday I'll regret that and wish I'd done it sooner .

A lot of stuff Shoemaker says doesn't. For instance, I do not

> think the body is unable to eliminate neurotoxins, I think CSM is

> mostly symptomatic treatment. Once you eliminate the infections,

the endotoxins go, too.

>

Well, just look at Ciguatoxin poisoning for example.

The toxins build up in the " food chain " and are concentrated in the

tissues of the larger fish? (don't eat the big 'uns).

Not an infection - just an accumulation of toxins from ingesting

OTHER fish who have been exposed to the dinoflagellates and absorbed

THEIR toxins.

If Dr Hokama had identified an epitope in CFS that is similar enough

to act like ciguatoxin, isn't it reasonable to suspect that it may

also have this property and cannot be metabolized?

I can't say that I have all the answers, but I do know this.

When all the doctors gave me up as a lost cause and there was no

apparent way out of Living Hell - I jumped into biotoxin avoidance

in a huge way and have had the pleasure of climbing Mt Whitney six

times since I left the ampligen program protocols.

And Dr Shoemaker is the ONLY doctor who knows exactly what I am

describing the moment I say it.

Think I'll stick with what works for me.

-

[Guest guest]

You avoided molds.

Or are you saying you only got well taking CSM? I thought it was abx

that have helped you, that and avoiding molds.

> >

> > Well it's really good youre improving and persisting.

> > I just avoid Shoemaker for now. For various reasons I somewhat

> > distrust his approach and I don't really want to read his book.

> Now, maybe someday I'll regret that and wish I'd done it sooner .

>

> A lot of stuff Shoemaker says doesn't. For instance, I do not

> > think the body is unable to eliminate neurotoxins, I think CSM is

> > mostly symptomatic treatment. Once you eliminate the infections,

> the endotoxins go, too.

> >

>

> Well, just look at Ciguatoxin poisoning for example.

> The toxins build up in the " food chain " and are concentrated in the

> tissues of the larger fish? (don't eat the big 'uns).

> Not an infection - just an accumulation of toxins from ingesting

> OTHER fish who have been exposed to the dinoflagellates and

absorbed

> THEIR toxins.

> If Dr Hokama had identified an epitope in CFS that is similar

enough

> to act like ciguatoxin, isn't it reasonable to suspect that it may

> also have this property and cannot be metabolized?

> I can't say that I have all the answers, but I do know this.

> When all the doctors gave me up as a lost cause and there was no

> apparent way out of Living Hell - I jumped into biotoxin avoidance

> in a huge way and have had the pleasure of climbing Mt Whitney six

> times since I left the ampligen program protocols.

> And Dr Shoemaker is the ONLY doctor who knows exactly what I am

> describing the moment I say it.

> Think I'll stick with what works for me.

> -

>

[Guest guest]

<jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

>

> You avoided molds.

> Or are you saying you only got well taking CSM? I thought it was abx

that have helped you, that and avoiding molds.

>

CSM wasn't around when I started mold avoidance.

I did try Doxy in '99 and CSM in 2001 but the relief I get from

avoiding mycotoxins is so much better than anything else that I just

concentrated on extreme avoidance alone - while I await definitive

information on what the heck is going on with this damned illness.

-

[Guest guest]

>

>

> CSM wasn't around when I started mold avoidance.

> I did try Doxy in '99 and CSM in 2001 but the relief I get from

> avoiding mycotoxins is so much better than anything else that I just

> concentrated on extreme avoidance alone - while I await definitive

> information on what the heck is going on with this damned illness.

> -

>

, did you ever have the HLA testing to see if you fit into

Shoemaker's model? It sounds like, at least for you, your body is able

to clear out any toxins as long as there are no new ones.

My first bad exposure 13 years ago, I did eventually recover, at least

mostly, even while still living in the moldy house. Now, I don't seem

to recover even when leaving or avoiding exposure, without some kind

of intervention. I don't know if that is because the treatment of Lyme

has increased the toxin levels over what my body can possibly handle

on its own, or if I am slowly deteriorating. That is why I was willing

to try Shoe's protocol.