Re: Niacin in PWCFS, niacin metabolism - niacin benzo/gaba-like effect

September 17, 2005

The other thing i wanted to say about niacin is that i feel an

almost - benzodiazpine-like effect from it, at the higher end

dosages. I think Niacin and Gaba may have some relation though this

is jus speculation.

> I have recently began expreimenting with niacin (plain) vitamin b-

3,

> the one that prevents pellegra. There is a theory out by someone

who

> thinks B3 (niacin) somehow protects against diseases spesecially

> spirocites like Lyme due to similarities in pellagra documention

in

> history and spirocite related issues and issues related to

> tryptophan and niacin intake.

>

> Keep in mind niacin (despite what is said about it) is NOT

essential

> in the diet. Niacin can be made from tryptophan, although the

ratio

> is like 50 tryptophan = 1 niacin , so its not the best source, but

> still, it could be considered " conditionally esential " , whereas

> tryptophan is essential. There is still debate if pellegra is a

> disease, a prevention of a disease, or if niacin is even a vitamin

> at all since it can be made from tryptophan.

>

> It is very interesting. I started taking plain niacin 500mg at

> first. i got the typical niacin flush for about 20 min, it was

> unpleasent but bearable. I have done this for almost a week now.

>

> I have noticed this :

>

> 1) tolerance to the flushing, which in my view means my body

doesnt

> need anymore perhaps and is saturated in niacin.

> 2) to get the flushing effects i need to raise the dose to around

> 1500mg daily now, usually on an empty stomach.

> 3) I am happier, in a better mood and I believe this could be due

to

> the freeing up of tryptophan for serotonin sythesis, rather than

> going towards niacin

> 4) In Addition, since freeing up tryptophan by adding the niacin,

I

> am getting extradinarily better sleep (this was before xyrem etc,

> which i just quit to make sure), I am pretty sure with the extra

> tryptophan, I am now able to get sleep.

>

> Was I niacin deficient I wonder, protein defienct in general, or

> tryptophan defcient, or perhaps a combination of these.

>

> RE: thiamine injectable IM was taken for about a month or 2

several

> months back. It as called Neurobion with was an IM of B6 100mg, B1

> 100mg and 10,000mcg of b12.

>

> There was a noticeable improement upon the first injection of

> energy, mood and cognition. I was not on it long enoungh to judge

> the full effects but the B-Vitamins, electrolytes & amino acid

> metabolism in CFS & Lyme are increasingly gaining my interest.

>

> I Highly suggest trying niacin (make sure its plain). It can cause

> liver problems at greatly high doses but this is not common.

> Nicotinamide cannot be substituded nor can no flush niacin.

>

> The flush is essential to the sleep/mood promoting properties IMO.

I

> think either its using up histamine, creating a lower histamine

> level, (first gen antihistamines make you tried remember?) and

> therefore promote sleep via less histamine or rather more

tryptophan

> availbility is the key which might make more sense.

>

> Dementia often responds to niacin therapy such as schizophrenia,

> spirocites(such as neuroshypilis or neuroborreles = lyme) are one

of

> the main causes of dementias which i thought was interesting as

well

> that niacin helps Alzhierms. Niacin seems to to protect against

> dementias and also many diseases have been implicated in

specieific

> dementias like toxoplasmosis can cause for example. I will be

> experimenting with B vitamin ratios in the near future.

>

> JL

September 17, 2005

Interesting about niacin.

I would think its related to histamine being lowered. The niacin

flush does use up histamine.

Also Klinghardt, and Amy Yasko, talk about niacin's anti-infective

properties.

I think I will try some niacin.

Magnesium is also the mineral most like benzos.

Kurt, I thought you had gotten off benzos and treated your insomnia a

long time ago--that's my memory from your emails and your blog, but I

could bewrong. You were still having insomnia until what dose of

salt/c? How are you feeling? My recollection is you feel you were

herxing or feeling cruddy most of the summer--what do you think the

salt/c is doing for you? I still lurk on lymestrategies as you know

but I still can't make head or tails of what's happening to anybody.

Some of the people who seemed to be the best reponders don't post

recently (bernadette) and others like cactuskickers, her recent post

seems to indicate she's been feeling really lousy for a while. People

call this a herx but it reminds me of people calling everything on

antibiotics a herx. I have no idea and they probably don't, either,

as to what is a herx, what is lyme's fluctuations, and what are side

effects from the therapy. I still think its interesting but I can't

get any clarity as to what's happening with people.

> > I have recently began expreimenting with niacin (plain) vitamin b-

> 3,

> > the one that prevents pellegra. There is a theory out by someone

> who

> > thinks B3 (niacin) somehow protects against diseases spesecially

> > spirocites like Lyme due to similarities in pellagra documention

> in

> > history and spirocite related issues and issues related to

> > tryptophan and niacin intake.

> >

> > Keep in mind niacin (despite what is said about it) is NOT

> essential

> > in the diet. Niacin can be made from tryptophan, although the

> ratio

> > is like 50 tryptophan = 1 niacin , so its not the best source,

but

> > still, it could be considered " conditionally esential " , whereas

> > tryptophan is essential. There is still debate if pellegra is a

> > disease, a prevention of a disease, or if niacin is even a

vitamin

> > at all since it can be made from tryptophan.

> >

> > It is very interesting. I started taking plain niacin 500mg at

> > first. i got the typical niacin flush for about 20 min, it was

> > unpleasent but bearable. I have done this for almost a week now.

> >

> > I have noticed this :

> >

> > 1) tolerance to the flushing, which in my view means my body

> doesnt

> > need anymore perhaps and is saturated in niacin.

> > 2) to get the flushing effects i need to raise the dose to around

> > 1500mg daily now, usually on an empty stomach.

> > 3) I am happier, in a better mood and I believe this could be due

> to

> > the freeing up of tryptophan for serotonin sythesis, rather than

> > going towards niacin

> > 4) In Addition, since freeing up tryptophan by adding the niacin,

> I

> > am getting extradinarily better sleep (this was before xyrem etc,

> > which i just quit to make sure), I am pretty sure with the extra

> > tryptophan, I am now able to get sleep.

> >

> > Was I niacin deficient I wonder, protein defienct in general, or

> > tryptophan defcient, or perhaps a combination of these.

> >

> > RE: thiamine injectable IM was taken for about a month or 2

> several

> > months back. It as called Neurobion with was an IM of B6 100mg,

B1

> > 100mg and 10,000mcg of b12.

> >

> > There was a noticeable improement upon the first injection of

> > energy, mood and cognition. I was not on it long enoungh to judge

> > the full effects but the B-Vitamins, electrolytes & amino acid

> > metabolism in CFS & Lyme are increasingly gaining my interest.

> >

> > I Highly suggest trying niacin (make sure its plain). It can

cause

> > liver problems at greatly high doses but this is not common.

> > Nicotinamide cannot be substituded nor can no flush niacin.

> >

> > The flush is essential to the sleep/mood promoting properties

IMO.

> I

> > think either its using up histamine, creating a lower histamine

> > level, (first gen antihistamines make you tried remember?) and

> > therefore promote sleep via less histamine or rather more

> tryptophan

> > availbility is the key which might make more sense.

> >

> > Dementia often responds to niacin therapy such as schizophrenia,

> > spirocites(such as neuroshypilis or neuroborreles = lyme) are one

> of

> > the main causes of dementias which i thought was interesting as

> well

> > that niacin helps Alzhierms. Niacin seems to to protect against

> > dementias and also many diseases have been implicated in

> specieific

> > dementias like toxoplasmosis can cause for example. I will be

> > experimenting with B vitamin ratios in the near future.

> >

> > JL

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with

> each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in

any

> treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

September 18, 2005

Good catch! This was a complicated issue (getting over insomnia). And

recently I have put things together a little better. The salt/c

protocol was more important than I had realized.

I really did solve the insomnia problem just before starting salt/c for

the second time last December (2004), and it was done by a process of

desensitization and relaxation therapies. I have documented this on my

blog. However, I had experimented with Salt/C about six months prior,

from the LymePhotos site (Spring of 2004), before LymeStrategies. But

that first time I stopped Salt/C when I hit my first major herx, as I

did not understand the herx phenomenon very well. Still, I think that

first month on Salt/C changed some things, I could relax better. And

then this was when I was finally able to have success getting off the

benzo, which took about 5-6 months of concerted effort (learning to

relax through pain, desensitizing an overactive anxiety response, etc.).

So I was not on the complete salt/c protocol, but had spent a month on

salt/c before getting serious about getting off benzo. When I finally

started sleeping about 6 months after I stopped Salt/C the first time,

something 'clicked' in my mind and I sensed the need to get back on

Salt/C more seriously, and that was conveniently when LymeStrategies

started-up. But I started having a lot of problems about 2 months into

the LymeStrategies version of Salt/C and started having sleep and

anxiety problems again (major herx). This was when I added Recup,

slowed down my ramp-up rate to 1g per month increase, and that along

with a few other adjuncts have keep me sleeping. So I believe that

Salt/C and later Recup helped me get through the Benzo withdrawal (which

is still ongoing after 9 months!), and played a role in both solving the

insomnia and keeping it solved while I go through the Lyme herx.

BTW, I had complete insomnia for 8 years, I would be dead today if not

for Benzo. So I am NOT against Benzo. When you need it, you need it,

it is my friend. I simply have learned more of the reasons I needed the

Benzo, and have finally started to make corrections. And it is

definitely a holistic problem.part nature part nurture. It only

resolved when I worked on both nature and nurture (both salt therapies

and relaxation therapies).

As far as 'what is going on in LymeStrategies' I have all of the posts

from the beginning, and have sorted them by author, and have started

reviewing the reports given. A lot of people have been helped, but I do

not see many reporting the complete cure that the moderator experienced.

However, he was only sick for 4 years, and took 9 months to get well, a

2 months per year of illness rate. IF reversal on Salt/C is partly a

detox phenomenon, then perhaps the time-frame should be to multiply two

months by the number of years of illness, rather than expect everyone to

get well within 9 months. Most people posting to LymeStrategies have

been ill for many years. So this could be part of the reason that

although there are many improvements, full cures are coming slower than

expected. And slow is fine, I worry about any fast cure for CFS or

Lyme, and do not think that would be good for our health in the

long-run. We need time to change, re-train, heal, recuperate, etc.

Maybe Salt/C will eventually turn out to be just one part of a

comprehensive therapy. That is how Klinghardt views Salt/C, and really

that is also the LymeStrategies role (given the adjuncts recommended

there).

--Kurt

Re: Niacin in PWCFS, niacin metabolism -

niacin benzo/gaba-like effect