Re: Flashlight adrenal test and a glutathione connection

[Guest guest]

Rich,

here is part of the article

http://askwaltstollmd.com/archives/cliffs/34028.html. by Cliff Garner

" Another test you can do relates more to deficiency in mineralcorticoids,

which control mineral

balances. For nerve impulses to be transmitted properly there must be enough

sodium ions

outside the cell and enough potassium inside the cell. In hypoadrenia there

may be too much

sodium loss and too much potassium retention. This shows up not only in

muscle spasm and

heart palpitation, but also in abnormal eye pupil change. To do the test it

is easier to have

someone help you, although you can do it alone with a mirror. Sit in a

darkened room for a few

minutes to dark-adapt the eyes, then shine the light from a not-to-strong

penlight from about 6

inches away onto the center of one eye, keeping it there for at least 30

seconds. Normally the

light will constrict the pupil (dark center of eye), which will remain

constricted. In hypoadrenia

one of three abnormal responses occurs: 1) The pupil opens at once; 2) The

pupil yoyos between

closed and open; 3) The pupil closes at first, but reopens within 10-30

seconds of light exposure.

This is why hypoadrenal people often wear dark glasses, complain about

bright sunlight, have

difficulty driving at night, etc. "

There is also similar explanation at below article

http://www.holistic-mind.com/general_adaptation_syndrome.htm

Hope these give some clue.

Nil

Flashlight adrenal test and a glutathione

connection

> Hi, all.

>

> Dr. L. , in his book " Adrenal Fatigue, the 21st Century

> Stress Syndrome, " describes a flashlight test for adrenal fatigue on

> pages 77-79, based on work published by Arroyo in 1924. By " adrenal

> fatigue " Dr. is referring to a deficient secretion of

> cortisol by the adrenal cortices.

>

> In this test, a person goes into a darkened room and shines a

> flashlight across one eye from the side of the head, while watching

> the eyes in a mirror. The size of the pupils is observed while doing

> this for two minutes. In a normal, healthy person, the irises of

> both eyes will contract when the light is shined across one of the

> eyes, so that the pupils become small in size, and they will remain

> small for the entire two minutes. If a person with adrenal fatigue

> runs this test, the pupils will become small at first, and then will

> dilate before the two-minute period is over. After about 30 to 45

> seconds, they will contract again.

>

> No explanation was given by Dr. for the physiological basis

> of this test. I have been puzzling over what goes on in this test,

> and now I think I understand it, so I want to share this

> hypothesis.

>

> It is known that the dilation of the iris (mydriasis) involves a

> part of the autonomic nervous system that uses norepinephine as a

> neurotransmitter, acting on alpha-1 adrenocepters. The contraction

> of the iris (miosis), on the other hand, makes use of acetylcholine

> and its receptors (Ganong, W.F., Review of Medical Physiology, 21st.

> edition, Lange, 2003, p.229).

>

> In a person with adrenal fatigue, it appears to me that what is

> going on in this test is that there is a tendency toward dilation of

> the irises, which the effort to contract (in response to light

> input) is not fully able to overcome, and this gives rise to the

> oscillating behavior of the irises. I think that what is causing

> this is an elevated level of systemic adrenaline (epinephrine), to

> which the alpha-1 adrenoceptors are also sensitive. I suspect that

> what is going on in a person with adrenal fatigue is that their

> adrenal cortices (as part of the HPA or hypothalamus-pituitary-

> adrenal axis) are not putting out enough cortisol, and that their

> adrenal medullas (as part of the hypothalamus-sympathetic-adrenal

> medulla system) are attempting to compensate by putting out excess

> adrenaline. (Note that cortisol and adrenaline produce some of the

> same effects in the body.) This stimulates the various

> adrenoceptors in the body and produces a variety of effects, one

> (which is produced by adrenaline but not cortisol) being difficulty

> in contracting the irises of the eyes.

>

> In a healthy, normal person, adrenaline is secreted mainly in highly

> stressful, fight-or-flight situations. In such situations, the

> function of adrenaline in dilating the irises is probably intended

> to ensure maximum ability to see, even in low-light situations.

> However, in a person with adrenal fatigue, this apparently goes on

> more or less continuously, and probably causes the photosensitivity

> and problems with headlights when driving at night that many PWCs

> report.

>

> This hypothesis still does not explain why the HPA axis is

> dysfunctional in CFS, which is what usually produces the so-called

> adrenal fatigue in CFS (Note that there is a paper in the literature

> reporting shrinkage of adrenal glands in PWCs. This most likely

> occurs because of lack of sufficient drive by ACTH secreted by the

> pituitary. This in turn probably results from lack of sufficient

> CRH from the hypothalamus, and it isn't yet understood why this

> occurs in CFS.) However, this hypothesis does suggest that PWCs who

> show up with adrenal fatigue on this test may be running more or

> less continuously at higher than normal levels of adrenaline

> secretion. The likely resulting formation of adrenochrome from

> autoxidation of the excessive adrenaline can be expected to place a

> demand on glutathione, which is needed for its Phase II

> detoxification, and this may constitute one of the vicious circle

> mechanisms tending to hold down glutathione in CFS. This in turn

> emphasizes the need to decrease the level of stress in PWCs in order

> to lower the secretion of adrenaline and thus relieve this vicious

> circle.

>

> It would be interesting to know if there is a positive correlation

> between positive results on this flashlight test and elevation of

> the metabolite of adrenaline (vanilmandelic acid) in the urinary

> organic acids test. This hypothesis would suggest such a

> correlation.

>

> As always, comments are welcome.

>

> Rich

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

> Hi, all.

>

> Dr. L. , in his book " Adrenal Fatigue, the 21st

Century

> Stress Syndrome, " describes a flashlight test for adrenal fatigue

on

> pages 77-79, based on work published by Arroyo in 1924.

By " adrenal

> fatigue " Dr. is referring to a deficient secretion of

> cortisol by the adrenal cortices.

>

> In this test, a person goes into a darkened room and shines a

> flashlight across one eye from the side of the head, while

watching

> the eyes in a mirror. The size of the pupils is observed while

doing

> this for two minutes. In a normal, healthy person, the irises of

> both eyes will contract when the light is shined across one of the

> eyes, so that the pupils become small in size, and they will

remain

> small for the entire two minutes. If a person with adrenal

fatigue

> runs this test, the pupils will become small at first, and then

will

> dilate before the two-minute period is over. After about 30 to 45

> seconds, they will contract again.

>

> No explanation was given by Dr. for the physiological basis

> of this test. I have been puzzling over what goes on in this

test,

> and now I think I understand it, so I want to share this

> hypothesis.

>

> It is known that the dilation of the iris (mydriasis) involves a

> part of the autonomic nervous system that uses norepinephine as a

> neurotransmitter, acting on alpha-1 adrenocepters. The

contraction

> of the iris (miosis), on the other hand, makes use of

acetylcholine

> and its receptors (Ganong, W.F., Review of Medical Physiology,

21st.

> edition, Lange, 2003, p.229).

>

> In a person with adrenal fatigue, it appears to me that what is

> going on in this test is that there is a tendency toward dilation

of

> the irises, which the effort to contract (in response to light

> input) is not fully able to overcome, and this gives rise to the

> oscillating behavior of the irises. I think that what is causing

> this is an elevated level of systemic adrenaline (epinephrine), to

> which the alpha-1 adrenoceptors are also sensitive. I suspect

that

> what is going on in a person with adrenal fatigue is that their

> adrenal cortices (as part of the HPA or hypothalamus-pituitary-

> adrenal axis) are not putting out enough cortisol, and that their

> adrenal medullas (as part of the hypothalamus-sympathetic-adrenal

> medulla system) are attempting to compensate by putting out excess

> adrenaline. (Note that cortisol and adrenaline produce some of

the

> same effects in the body.) This stimulates the various

> adrenoceptors in the body and produces a variety of effects, one

> (which is produced by adrenaline but not cortisol) being

difficulty

> in contracting the irises of the eyes.

>

> In a healthy, normal person, adrenaline is secreted mainly in

highly

> stressful, fight-or-flight situations. In such situations, the

> function of adrenaline in dilating the irises is probably intended

> to ensure maximum ability to see, even in low-light situations.

> However, in a person with adrenal fatigue, this apparently goes on

> more or less continuously, and probably causes the

photosensitivity

> and problems with headlights when driving at night that many PWCs

> report.

>

> This hypothesis still does not explain why the HPA axis is

> dysfunctional in CFS, which is what usually produces the so-called

> adrenal fatigue in CFS (Note that there is a paper in the

literature

> reporting shrinkage of adrenal glands in PWCs. This most likely

> occurs because of lack of sufficient drive by ACTH secreted by the

> pituitary. This in turn probably results from lack of sufficient

> CRH from the hypothalamus, and it isn't yet understood why this

> occurs in CFS.) However, this hypothesis does suggest that PWCs

who

> show up with adrenal fatigue on this test may be running more or

> less continuously at higher than normal levels of adrenaline

> secretion. The likely resulting formation of adrenochrome from

> autoxidation of the excessive adrenaline can be expected to place

a

> demand on glutathione, which is needed for its Phase II

> detoxification, and this may constitute one of the vicious circle

> mechanisms tending to hold down glutathione in CFS. This in turn

> emphasizes the need to decrease the level of stress in PWCs in

order

> to lower the secretion of adrenaline and thus relieve this vicious

> circle.

>

> It would be interesting to know if there is a positive correlation

> between positive results on this flashlight test and elevation of

> the metabolite of adrenaline (vanilmandelic acid) in the urinary

> organic acids test. This hypothesis would suggest such a

> correlation.

>

> As always, comments are welcome.

>

> Rich

Hi Rich

I have known mild adrenal insufficiency and CFS (from 24 hours

saliva cortisol tests) and I have this oscillating pattern you

describe above so it is definitely indicative of underfunctioning

adrenals.

Last week I had to double my dose of Prednisolone after 2 weeks of

becoming hyperthyroid due to too much medication. This of course

eventually stressed my adrenals further, they couldn't cope with the

massive amount of adrenaline that was being produced and I had the

resulting insomnia, anxiety and inabliity to do anything, I felt

terrible.

After doubling up my dose of Prednisolone at the end of last week

the symptoms quickly subsided except that I now have poor stamina

again due to no thyroid meds for a couple of weeks plus the weak

adrenals. However my doctor is going to give me a plan to restart

thyroid meds at a lower dose plus I don't know how long I will have

to stay on the 5mg Pred.

I will have to retest my pupil's response later in the week once the

adrenals have built up a bit with the extra Pred and see if my

pupils react more normally. Will let you know. I rather tend to

think they will because whereas I was experiencing horrendous

adrenaline symptoms last week, now I am not experiencing any

thankfully.

Thanks again for explaining this Rich and bringing this useful test

to the attention of others on this list. (I bet traditional docs

won't agree with it though).

Best Wishes

Pam

[Guest guest]

Hi, Pam.

Thanks for the information. I hope your endocrine situation settles

back down again soon. I'll be interested to hear how your repeat

pupillary response test goes.

Rich

> > Hi, all.

> >

> > Dr. L. , in his book " Adrenal Fatigue, the 21st

> Century

> > Stress Syndrome, " describes a flashlight test for adrenal

fatigue

> on

> > pages 77-79, based on work published by Arroyo in 1924.

> By " adrenal

> > fatigue " Dr. is referring to a deficient secretion of

> > cortisol by the adrenal cortices.

> >

> > In this test, a person goes into a darkened room and shines a

> > flashlight across one eye from the side of the head, while

> watching

> > the eyes in a mirror. The size of the pupils is observed while

> doing

> > this for two minutes. In a normal, healthy person, the irises

of

> > both eyes will contract when the light is shined across one of

the

> > eyes, so that the pupils become small in size, and they will

> remain

> > small for the entire two minutes. If a person with adrenal

> fatigue

> > runs this test, the pupils will become small at first, and then

> will

> > dilate before the two-minute period is over. After about 30 to

45

> > seconds, they will contract again.

> >

> > No explanation was given by Dr. for the physiological

basis

> > of this test. I have been puzzling over what goes on in this

> test,

> > and now I think I understand it, so I want to share this

> > hypothesis.

> >

> > It is known that the dilation of the iris (mydriasis) involves a

> > part of the autonomic nervous system that uses norepinephine as

a

> > neurotransmitter, acting on alpha-1 adrenocepters. The

> contraction

> > of the iris (miosis), on the other hand, makes use of

> acetylcholine

> > and its receptors (Ganong, W.F., Review of Medical Physiology,

> 21st.

> > edition, Lange, 2003, p.229).

> >

> > In a person with adrenal fatigue, it appears to me that what is

> > going on in this test is that there is a tendency toward

dilation

> of

> > the irises, which the effort to contract (in response to light

> > input) is not fully able to overcome, and this gives rise to the

> > oscillating behavior of the irises. I think that what is causing

> > this is an elevated level of systemic adrenaline (epinephrine),

to

> > which the alpha-1 adrenoceptors are also sensitive. I suspect

> that

> > what is going on in a person with adrenal fatigue is that their

> > adrenal cortices (as part of the HPA or hypothalamus-pituitary-

> > adrenal axis) are not putting out enough cortisol, and that

their

> > adrenal medullas (as part of the hypothalamus-sympathetic-

adrenal

> > medulla system) are attempting to compensate by putting out

excess

> > adrenaline. (Note that cortisol and adrenaline produce some of

> the

> > same effects in the body.) This stimulates the various

> > adrenoceptors in the body and produces a variety of effects, one

> > (which is produced by adrenaline but not cortisol) being

> difficulty

> > in contracting the irises of the eyes.

> >

> > In a healthy, normal person, adrenaline is secreted mainly in

> highly

> > stressful, fight-or-flight situations. In such situations, the

> > function of adrenaline in dilating the irises is probably

intended

> > to ensure maximum ability to see, even in low-light situations.

> > However, in a person with adrenal fatigue, this apparently goes

on

> > more or less continuously, and probably causes the

> photosensitivity

> > and problems with headlights when driving at night that many

PWCs

> > report.

> >

> > This hypothesis still does not explain why the HPA axis is

> > dysfunctional in CFS, which is what usually produces the so-

called

> > adrenal fatigue in CFS (Note that there is a paper in the

> literature

> > reporting shrinkage of adrenal glands in PWCs. This most likely

> > occurs because of lack of sufficient drive by ACTH secreted by

the

> > pituitary. This in turn probably results from lack of

sufficient

> > CRH from the hypothalamus, and it isn't yet understood why this

> > occurs in CFS.) However, this hypothesis does suggest that PWCs

> who

> > show up with adrenal fatigue on this test may be running more or

> > less continuously at higher than normal levels of adrenaline

> > secretion. The likely resulting formation of adrenochrome from

> > autoxidation of the excessive adrenaline can be expected to

place

> a

> > demand on glutathione, which is needed for its Phase II

> > detoxification, and this may constitute one of the vicious

circle

> > mechanisms tending to hold down glutathione in CFS. This in

turn

> > emphasizes the need to decrease the level of stress in PWCs in

> order

> > to lower the secretion of adrenaline and thus relieve this

vicious

> > circle.

> >

> > It would be interesting to know if there is a positive

correlation

> > between positive results on this flashlight test and elevation

of

> > the metabolite of adrenaline (vanilmandelic acid) in the urinary

> > organic acids test. This hypothesis would suggest such a

> > correlation.

> >

> > As always, comments are welcome.

> >

> > Rich

>

> Hi Rich

>

> I have known mild adrenal insufficiency and CFS (from 24 hours

> saliva cortisol tests) and I have this oscillating pattern you

> describe above so it is definitely indicative of underfunctioning

> adrenals.

>

> Last week I had to double my dose of Prednisolone after 2 weeks of

> becoming hyperthyroid due to too much medication. This of course

> eventually stressed my adrenals further, they couldn't cope with

the

> massive amount of adrenaline that was being produced and I had the

> resulting insomnia, anxiety and inabliity to do anything, I felt

> terrible.

>

> After doubling up my dose of Prednisolone at the end of last week

> the symptoms quickly subsided except that I now have poor stamina

> again due to no thyroid meds for a couple of weeks plus the weak

> adrenals. However my doctor is going to give me a plan to restart

> thyroid meds at a lower dose plus I don't know how long I will

have

> to stay on the 5mg Pred.

>

> I will have to retest my pupil's response later in the week once

the

> adrenals have built up a bit with the extra Pred and see if my

> pupils react more normally. Will let you know. I rather tend to

> think they will because whereas I was experiencing horrendous

> adrenaline symptoms last week, now I am not experiencing any

> thankfully.

>

> Thanks again for explaining this Rich and bringing this useful

test

> to the attention of others on this list. (I bet traditional docs

> won't agree with it though).

>

> Best Wishes

>

> Pam

[Guest guest]

Hi, Nil.

Thanks for this explanation of the pupillary adrenal test. I hadn't

read about it before. I wonder if there is good evidence behind

it. Maybe blood plasma levels of sodium and potassium in people who

have a positive " flashight test " would shed some light on whether

this is the correct explanation, and maybe such data exist in the

literature.

As I said, my suggested explanation is just a hypothesis. It would

be nice to know for sure what the true physiological basis of this

test is.

Rich

> Rich,

>

> here is part of the article

> http://askwaltstollmd.com/archives/cliffs/34028.html. by Cliff

Garner

>

> " Another test you can do relates more to deficiency in

mineralcorticoids,

> which control mineral

> balances. For nerve impulses to be transmitted properly there must

be enough

> sodium ions

> outside the cell and enough potassium inside the cell. In

hypoadrenia there

> may be too much

> sodium loss and too much potassium retention. This shows up not

only in

> muscle spasm and

> heart palpitation, but also in abnormal eye pupil change. To do

the test it

> is easier to have

> someone help you, although you can do it alone with a mirror. Sit

in a

> darkened room for a few

> minutes to dark-adapt the eyes, then shine the light from a not-to-

strong

> penlight from about 6

> inches away onto the center of one eye, keeping it there for at

least 30

> seconds. Normally the

> light will constrict the pupil (dark center of eye), which will

remain

> constricted. In hypoadrenia

> one of three abnormal responses occurs: 1) The pupil opens at

once; 2) The

> pupil yoyos between

> closed and open; 3) The pupil closes at first, but reopens within

10-30

> seconds of light exposure.

> This is why hypoadrenal people often wear dark glasses, complain

about

> bright sunlight, have

> difficulty driving at night, etc. "

>

> There is also similar explanation at below article

> http://www.holistic-mind.com/general_adaptation_syndrome.htm

> Hope these give some clue.

>

>

> Nil

>

[Guest guest]

I looked up Selye and this syndrome in PubMed and couldn't find any

information. Have there been actual studies supporting these concepts?

Thanks.

Kris

Re: Flashlight adrenal test and a glutathione

connection

> Hi, Nil.

>

> Thanks for this explanation of the pupillary adrenal test. I hadn't

> read about it before. I wonder if there is good evidence behind

> it. Maybe blood plasma levels of sodium and potassium in people who

> have a positive " flashight test " would shed some light on whether

> this is the correct explanation, and maybe such data exist in the

> literature.

>

> As I said, my suggested explanation is just a hypothesis. It would

> be nice to know for sure what the true physiological basis of this

> test is.

>

> Rich

>

>

>> Rich,

>>

>> here is part of the article

>> http://askwaltstollmd.com/archives/cliffs/34028.html. by Cliff

> Garner

>>

>> " Another test you can do relates more to deficiency in

> mineralcorticoids,

>> which control mineral

>> balances. For nerve impulses to be transmitted properly there must

> be enough

>> sodium ions

>> outside the cell and enough potassium inside the cell. In

> hypoadrenia there

>> may be too much

>> sodium loss and too much potassium retention. This shows up not

> only in

>> muscle spasm and

>> heart palpitation, but also in abnormal eye pupil change. To do

> the test it

>> is easier to have

>> someone help you, although you can do it alone with a mirror. Sit

> in a

>> darkened room for a few

>> minutes to dark-adapt the eyes, then shine the light from a not-to-

> strong

>> penlight from about 6

>> inches away onto the center of one eye, keeping it there for at

> least 30

>> seconds. Normally the

>> light will constrict the pupil (dark center of eye), which will

> remain

>> constricted. In hypoadrenia

>> one of three abnormal responses occurs: 1) The pupil opens at

> once; 2) The

>> pupil yoyos between

>> closed and open; 3) The pupil closes at first, but reopens within

> 10-30

>> seconds of light exposure.

>> This is why hypoadrenal people often wear dark glasses, complain

> about

>> bright sunlight, have

>> difficulty driving at night, etc. "

>>

>> There is also similar explanation at below article

>> http://www.holistic-mind.com/general_adaptation_syndrome.htm

>> Hope these give some clue.

>>

>>

>> Nil

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Kris.

I suggest that you take a look at the review I wrote of

Goldstein's talk at the NIH workshop two years ago. It discusses the

current view of stress researchers concerning Hans Selye's work.

It can be found at this website:

http://www.fibromyalgiasupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/ID/5168/e/

1/T/CFIDS_FM/

Rich

> >> Rich,

> >>

> >> here is part of the article

> >> http://askwaltstollmd.com/archives/cliffs/34028.html. by Cliff

> > Garner

> >>

> >> " Another test you can do relates more to deficiency in

> > mineralcorticoids,

> >> which control mineral

> >> balances. For nerve impulses to be transmitted properly there

must

> > be enough

> >> sodium ions

> >> outside the cell and enough potassium inside the cell. In

> > hypoadrenia there

> >> may be too much

> >> sodium loss and too much potassium retention. This shows up not

> > only in

> >> muscle spasm and

> >> heart palpitation, but also in abnormal eye pupil change. To do

> > the test it

> >> is easier to have

> >> someone help you, although you can do it alone with a mirror.

Sit

> > in a

> >> darkened room for a few

> >> minutes to dark-adapt the eyes, then shine the light from a not-

to-

> > strong

> >> penlight from about 6

> >> inches away onto the center of one eye, keeping it there for at

> > least 30

> >> seconds. Normally the

> >> light will constrict the pupil (dark center of eye), which will

> > remain

> >> constricted. In hypoadrenia

> >> one of three abnormal responses occurs: 1) The pupil opens at

> > once; 2) The

> >> pupil yoyos between

> >> closed and open; 3) The pupil closes at first, but reopens

within

> > 10-30

> >> seconds of light exposure.

> >> This is why hypoadrenal people often wear dark glasses, complain

> > about

> >> bright sunlight, have

> >> difficulty driving at night, etc. "

> >>

> >> There is also similar explanation at below article

> >> http://www.holistic-mind.com/general_adaptation_syndrome.htm

> >> Hope these give some clue.

> >>

> >>

> >> Nil

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each

> > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment

> > discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

Your hypothesis really seems to fit my situation, especially the systemic

adrenaline part. I have always tested positive for adrenal fatigue when doing

the flashlight test, but I just checked and my OA test shows my VMA pretty much

OK at 1.90 (range 0.0-3.5). Does this mean that systemic elevation of

norepinephrine would not be a problem for me after all?

rvankonynen <richvank@...> wrote:

Hi, all.

Dr. L. , in his book " Adrenal Fatigue, the 21st Century

Stress Syndrome, " describes a flashlight test for adrenal fatigue on

pages 77-79, based on work published by Arroyo in 1924. By " adrenal

fatigue " Dr. is referring to a deficient secretion of

cortisol by the adrenal cortices.

In this test, a person goes into a darkened room and shines a

flashlight across one eye from the side of the head, while watching

the eyes in a mirror. The size of the pupils is observed while doing

this for two minutes. In a normal, healthy person, the irises of

both eyes will contract when the light is shined across one of the

eyes, so that the pupils become small in size, and they will remain

small for the entire two minutes. If a person with adrenal fatigue

runs this test, the pupils will become small at first, and then will

dilate before the two-minute period is over. After about 30 to 45

seconds, they will contract again.

No explanation was given by Dr. for the physiological basis

of this test. I have been puzzling over what goes on in this test,

and now I think I understand it, so I want to share this

hypothesis.

It is known that the dilation of the iris (mydriasis) involves a

part of the autonomic nervous system that uses norepinephine as a

neurotransmitter, acting on alpha-1 adrenocepters. The contraction

of the iris (miosis), on the other hand, makes use of acetylcholine

and its receptors (Ganong, W.F., Review of Medical Physiology, 21st.

edition, Lange, 2003, p.229).

In a person with adrenal fatigue, it appears to me that what is

going on in this test is that there is a tendency toward dilation of

the irises, which the effort to contract (in response to light

input) is not fully able to overcome, and this gives rise to the

oscillating behavior of the irises. I think that what is causing

this is an elevated level of systemic adrenaline (epinephrine), to

which the alpha-1 adrenoceptors are also sensitive. I suspect that

what is going on in a person with adrenal fatigue is that their

adrenal cortices (as part of the HPA or hypothalamus-pituitary-

adrenal axis) are not putting out enough cortisol, and that their

adrenal medullas (as part of the hypothalamus-sympathetic-adrenal

medulla system) are attempting to compensate by putting out excess

adrenaline. (Note that cortisol and adrenaline produce some of the

same effects in the body.) This stimulates the various

adrenoceptors in the body and produces a variety of effects, one

(which is produced by adrenaline but not cortisol) being difficulty

in contracting the irises of the eyes.

In a healthy, normal person, adrenaline is secreted mainly in highly

stressful, fight-or-flight situations. In such situations, the

function of adrenaline in dilating the irises is probably intended

to ensure maximum ability to see, even in low-light situations.

However, in a person with adrenal fatigue, this apparently goes on

more or less continuously, and probably causes the photosensitivity

and problems with headlights when driving at night that many PWCs

report.

This hypothesis still does not explain why the HPA axis is

dysfunctional in CFS, which is what usually produces the so-called

adrenal fatigue in CFS (Note that there is a paper in the literature

reporting shrinkage of adrenal glands in PWCs. This most likely

occurs because of lack of sufficient drive by ACTH secreted by the

pituitary. This in turn probably results from lack of sufficient

CRH from the hypothalamus, and it isn't yet understood why this

occurs in CFS.) However, this hypothesis does suggest that PWCs who

show up with adrenal fatigue on this test may be running more or

less continuously at higher than normal levels of adrenaline

secretion. The likely resulting formation of adrenochrome from

autoxidation of the excessive adrenaline can be expected to place a

demand on glutathione, which is needed for its Phase II

detoxification, and this may constitute one of the vicious circle

mechanisms tending to hold down glutathione in CFS. This in turn

emphasizes the need to decrease the level of stress in PWCs in order

to lower the secretion of adrenaline and thus relieve this vicious

circle.

It would be interesting to know if there is a positive correlation

between positive results on this flashlight test and elevation of

the metabolite of adrenaline (vanilmandelic acid) in the urinary

organic acids test. This hypothesis would suggest such a

correlation.

As always, comments are welcome.

Rich

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

> Rich,

>

> here is part of the article

> http://askwaltstollmd.com/archives/cliffs/34028.html. by Cliff

Garner

>

> " Another test you can do relates more to deficiency in

mineralcorticoids,

> which control mineral

> balances. For nerve impulses to be transmitted properly there must

be enough

> sodium ions

> outside the cell and enough potassium inside the cell. In

hypoadrenia there

> may be too much

> sodium loss and too much potassium retention. This shows up not

only in

> muscle spasm and

> heart palpitation, but also in abnormal eye pupil change. To do

the test it

> is easier to have

> someone help you, although you can do it alone with a mirror. Sit

in a

> darkened room for a few

> minutes to dark-adapt the eyes, then shine the light from a not-to-

strong

> penlight from about 6

> inches away onto the center of one eye, keeping it there for at

least 30

> seconds. Normally the

> light will constrict the pupil (dark center of eye), which will

remain

> constricted. In hypoadrenia

> one of three abnormal responses occurs: 1) The pupil opens at

once; 2) The

> pupil yoyos between

> closed and open; 3) The pupil closes at first, but reopens within

10-30

> seconds of light exposure.

> This is why hypoadrenal people often wear dark glasses, complain

about

> bright sunlight, have

> difficulty driving at night, etc. "

>

> There is also similar explanation at below article

> http://www.holistic-mind.com/general_adaptation_syndrome.htm

> Hope these give some clue.

>

>

> Nil

>

Hi Nil

I said I would report back about this test. Did it last night

having doubled up my dose of steroid to 5mg Prednisolone for one

week before dropping back to my normal 2.5mg.

Well obviously my adrenals still aren't normal because the pupils

opened at once and stayed that way, never constricting at all. I

did this for about a minute.

However the pupil response has changed because prior to treatment it

used to yo-yo back and forth all the time. Don't know what this

means but now it just stays very large.

I will have to retry in about a month when my thyroid meds should be

stabalised, never forgetting the thyroid and adrenals work together.

Best Wishes

Pam

[Guest guest]

Hi Pam,

It takes time,unfortunately.You might have already heard that but it is said

that it might take 6 months to 2 years for adrenal recovery.

best wishes.

Nil

Re: Flashlight adrenal test and a glutathione

connection

>

>> Rich,

>>

>> here is part of the article

>> http://askwaltstollmd.com/archives/cliffs/34028.html. by Cliff

> Garner

>>

>> " Another test you can do relates more to deficiency in

> mineralcorticoids,

>> which control mineral

[Guest guest]

> Hi Pam,

>

> It takes time,unfortunately.You might have already heard that but

it is said

> that it might take 6 months to 2 years for adrenal recovery.

>

> best wishes.

> Nil

Hi Nil

I have been on adrenal meds for nearly 3 years but keep the dose to

a minimum. Often I feel as if I need more though. As I probably

have Sheehan's Syndrome it means permanent damage to the HPA axis

but I am resigned to this and try and lead my life accordingly. At

least its a lot better than it was in 2000.

Best Wishes

Pam

[Guest guest]

PAM;

I have just been tested for Sheehan's and don't have the results yet. (I

hemorrhaged massively after surgery in the eighties, and felt the full brunt

of ME shortly after.)

I didn't know it had a name until I read your post, so I just went and

googled a bit, and that leads me to ask you two questions; how come you

don't have a definitive diagnosis, and why only adrenal meds and not thyroid

too?

Adrienne

Hi Nil

I have been on adrenal meds for nearly 3 years but keep the dose to

a minimum. Often I feel as if I need more though. As I probably

have Sheehan's Syndrome it means permanent damage to the HPA axis

but I am resigned to this and try and lead my life accordingly. At

least its a lot better than it was in 2000.

Best Wishes

Pam

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

> PAM;

> I have just been tested for Sheehan's and don't have the results

yet. (I

> hemorrhaged massively after surgery in the eighties, and felt the

full brunt

> of ME shortly after.)

>

> I didn't know it had a name until I read your post, so I just went

and

> googled a bit, and that leads me to ask you two questions; how

come you

> don't have a definitive diagnosis, and why only adrenal meds and

not thyroid

> too?

>

>

Hi Adrienne

I was diagnosed by a private doctor when he saw my saliva test

results showing the pattern of lowish cortisol especially at midday

and 4 pm plus above range DHEA, together with thyroid results (I

have Hashimotos and thyroglobulin antibodies) plus of course my

history. I got nowhere with NHS doctors and have given up on them

and don't want to go through a barrage of tests now that I am so

much improved.

Yes, I do take thyroid meds and have great difficulty getting the

combination of T3 to T4 right. Armour seems to contain too much T3

for me so today I have switched to 25 T4 and just half a grain

Armour plus 3.5mg Prednisolone. Probably I will have to raise this

dose when it gets colder.

I have often wondered how many others are diagnosed with ME or CFS

when in fact they have the combination of underfunctioning adrenals

and thyroid that are not treated because of a pituitary problem

keeping the TSH normal plus of course the traditional docs don't

recognised mild adrenal insufficiency only the extreme of s

disease when the adrenals have failed completely.

If the endocrine system is underfunctioning it will effect the

immune system massively as I found out. BTW I also had mercury

poisoning which I guess would also be due to the weak endocrine

system.

Hope you get some positive results so you can be treated. I felt

the difference within days of starting treatment but it has taken

much longer to get the immune system working well.

Best Wishes

Pam

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I am very hopeful to find my way out of this

decades long incapacity and misery.

The only test my doc has requested to diagnose the pituitary was a 24 hr

urine sample. I hope it is not messed up by my taking pituitary extract. I

told him I was and he said nevermind. Maybe he doesn't believe in the

efficacy of tissue extracts, I don't know. I took it withouth thinking.

Even if the traditional doc refuses to treat, my naturopath will. He

diagnosed a pituitary problem lately using some kind of electrical device.

Adrienne

Re: Flashlight adrenal test and a glutathione

connection

> PAM;

> I have just been tested for Sheehan's and don't have the results

yet. (I

> hemorrhaged massively after surgery in the eighties, and felt the

full brunt

> of ME shortly after.)

>

> I didn't know it had a name until I read your post, so I just went

and

> googled a bit, and that leads me to ask you two questions; how

come you

> don't have a definitive diagnosis, and why only adrenal meds and

not thyroid

> too?

>

>

Hi Adrienne

I was diagnosed by a private doctor when he saw my saliva test

results showing the pattern of lowish cortisol especially at midday

and 4 pm plus above range DHEA, together with thyroid results (I

have Hashimotos and thyroglobulin antibodies) plus of course my

history. I got nowhere with NHS doctors and have given up on them

and don't want to go through a barrage of tests now that I am so

much improved.

Yes, I do take thyroid meds and have great difficulty getting the

combination of T3 to T4 right. Armour seems to contain too much T3

for me so today I have switched to 25 T4 and just half a grain

Armour plus 3.5mg Prednisolone. Probably I will have to raise this

dose when it gets colder.

I have often wondered how many others are diagnosed with ME or CFS

when in fact they have the combination of underfunctioning adrenals

and thyroid that are not treated because of a pituitary problem

keeping the TSH normal plus of course the traditional docs don't

recognised mild adrenal insufficiency only the extreme of s

disease when the adrenals have failed completely.

If the endocrine system is underfunctioning it will effect the

immune system massively as I found out. BTW I also had mercury

poisoning which I guess would also be due to the weak endocrine

system.

Hope you get some positive results so you can be treated. I felt

the difference within days of starting treatment but it has taken

much longer to get the immune system working well.

Best Wishes

Pam

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Adrienne,

How is the pituitary extract working? Are you continuing to get the

benefits you initially reported (was it about two months ago?).

--Kurt

Re: Re: Flashlight adrenal test and a

glutathione connection

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I am very hopeful to find my way out of this

decades long incapacity and misery.

The only test my doc has requested to diagnose the pituitary was a 24 hr

urine sample. I hope it is not messed up by my taking pituitary extract.

I

told him I was and he said nevermind. Maybe he doesn't believe in the

efficacy of tissue extracts, I don't know. I took it withouth thinking.

Even if the traditional doc refuses to treat, my naturopath will. He

diagnosed a pituitary problem lately using some kind of electrical

device.

Adrienne

Re: Flashlight adrenal test and a

glutathione

connection

> PAM;

> I have just been tested for Sheehan's and don't have the results

yet. (I

> hemorrhaged massively after surgery in the eighties, and felt the

full brunt

> of ME shortly after.)

>

> I didn't know it had a name until I read your post, so I just went

and

> googled a bit, and that leads me to ask you two questions; how

come you

> don't have a definitive diagnosis, and why only adrenal meds and

not thyroid

> too?

>

>

Hi Adrienne

_____

[Guest guest]

Hi, Kurt.

Thanks for asking . I hadn't realized that it was that long. My most

immediate answer is definitely yes , things have changed for the better. I

have the feeling that it is a long haul kind of thing , like the b12 has

been. I am doing more , have more endurance but it's a rocky road . Lots

of ups and downs . The rhythms of my life have changed ; I go long enough

without any kind of (mini)crash to be surprised when the next one comes.

Once again I am planning things because it seems I can but then can't do

them.

I feel like my bottom is higher, so that , for instance , when I am tired I

can stay in bed and read . I used to be so tired at the bottom that all I

could do was watch TV. Reading was too hard . But tonight was the second

night in a row that I have not watched TV it all . It's been years since

that happened .

My mental life is different too ; I can track much more complex situations

and have created them since I can. I've also been taking more supplements

more regularly and I'm almost thinking that that confounds the situation ,

but really I think I am taking more because I'm able to pay attention to it

and do it .

Same with my spiritual life ; I know that the more I am attentive to

spiritual practices the better my life and health are and I have been doing

more, but again I think that's because I am able to do more .

I'm really quite confused a lot of the time because everything is changing

, the parameters are not what they were for so long , but I'm not getting

overwhelmed , at least not most of the time . Right after I started using

the extract it got very hot and I attempted to compensate for the exhaustion

by taking more extract and growth hormone and messed myself up for while

mentally . Can't describe it; too much was paralyzing.

So that's about it with me and pituitary extract right now . I'm going to

continue with it . But I've been feeling like I now need to adjust the dose

of the growth hormone so I am messing around with that, too.

Adrienne

Re: Flashlight adrenal test and a

glutathione

connection

> PAM;

> I have just been tested for Sheehan's and don't have the results

yet. (I

> hemorrhaged massively after surgery in the eighties, and felt the

full brunt

> of ME shortly after.)

>

> I didn't know it had a name until I read your post, so I just went

and

> googled a bit, and that leads me to ask you two questions; how

come you

> don't have a definitive diagnosis, and why only adrenal meds and

not thyroid

> too?

>

>

Hi Adrienne

_____

[Guest guest]

Kurt,

Whenever I use Pituitary extract.I feel a lot better.Don't know how to

describe it. better brain I guess. Just wishes to inform.

Nil

Re: Flashlight adrenal test and a

> glutathione

> connection

>

>

>

>> PAM;

>> I have just been tested for Sheehan's and don't have the results

> yet. (I

>> hemorrhaged massively after surgery in the eighties, and felt the

> full brunt

>> of ME shortly after.)

>>

>> I didn't know it had a name until I read your post, so I just went

> and

>> googled a bit, and that leads me to ask you two questions; how

> come you

>> don't have a definitive diagnosis, and why only adrenal meds and

> not thyroid

>> too?

>>

>>

> Hi Adrienne

> _____

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Which pituitary extract do you use?

thanks,

yildiz wrote:

> Kurt,

>

> Whenever I use Pituitary extract.I feel a lot better.Don't know how to

> describe it. better brain I guess. Just wishes to inform.

> Nil

> Re: Flashlight adrenal test and a

> > glutathione

> > connection

> >

> >

> >

> >> PAM;

> >> I have just been tested for Sheehan's and don't have the results

> > yet. (I

> >> hemorrhaged massively after surgery in the eighties, and felt the

> > full brunt

> >> of ME shortly after.)

> >>

> >> I didn't know it had a name until I read your post, so I just went

> > and

> >> googled a bit, and that leads me to ask you two questions; how

> > come you

> >> don't have a definitive diagnosis, and why only adrenal meds and

> > not thyroid

> >> too?

> >>

> >>

> > Hi Adrienne

> > _____

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Cytozyme PT/HPT by Biotics research.

It has

Lamb Pituitary/hypothalamus 40 mg

Super Oxide Dismutase 30 mcg

catalase 30 mcg.

Blake,

I had some questions in mind but I hesitated to ask you as I still could not

have my cu/zn/ceruloplasmin tests done due to some unexpected problems with

my lab tests..It seems that I won't be able to have them done soon as I am

quite tired at this point and I will have to leave the city soon for couple

of month.During that time I won't be able to have any tests done or contact

with anyone at web.I don't know what I should do with this regimen during

that time.As I saw your note,I thought may be it would be better for me to

ask before I leave.

I have been using 500 mg of l methionine,about 30 mg of zinc,8 mg of

manganese,150 mcg molybdenum,100 mcg chromium,50 mg p5p daily for my copper

toxicity and high histamine problems for the last 3.5 months. I also use 1

tablet of b-50(Only one because I was tested high in folic acid. This B-50

contains 100 mcg folic acid.Lowest I could find) and EPO.(Also taking about

400 mg of Ca,300 mg of mag,vit c,E,D,etc,)

I was only able to have my folic acid test recently. It was out of top limit

4 months ago. It is within the limits now.

When I first began this regimen I saw great improvement.My insomnia almost

disappeared,dream recall started,constipation decreased.my brain problems

lessened. I know that this regimen helped me but for the last month I don't

seem to have the benefits continue. I started not having dream recall again.

Started having some insomnia from time to time and my brain problems started

to increase.I wonder what could be the cause for this? Is this due to a

problem in this regimen or is it due to another problem(I had some stress

lately). I don't have any idea on that.I wanted to ask you if there could be

any possible causes of this due to my copper toxicity regimen. Do I need

other b vitamins more? Is there anything missing? Did I develop another

deficiency due to being on this protocol for 3.5 months? I could not

understand. My serum (or blood) B12 was high a year ago so I did not take

B12 this year.Would you think I also need B12 to support this regimen? There

must be a problem somewhere.Would you think above supplements in above given

quantities may create a problem within 3.5 months?Lately I started trying to

give brake to l-methionine but I see that it is not the time yet to stop as

my insomnia turns back. Also whenever I try to decrease any of the

supplements given above my insomnia comes back.I am aware that I don't have

much data in hand to forward you a question but still wished to take your

opinion thinking that you might have some insight..

Thanks and best wishes.

Nil

Re: Flashlight adrenal test and a

>> > glutathione

>> > connection

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >> PAM;

>> >> I have just been tested for Sheehan's and don't have the results

>> > yet. (I

>> >> hemorrhaged massively after surgery in the eighties, and felt the

>> > full brunt

>> >> of ME shortly after.)

>> >>

>> >> I didn't know it had a name until I read your post, so I just went

>> > and

>> >> googled a bit, and that leads me to ask you two questions; how

>> > come you

>> >> don't have a definitive diagnosis, and why only adrenal meds and

>> > not thyroid

>> >> too?

>> >>

>> >>

>> > Hi Adrienne

>> > _____

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Nil,

It's hard to say, Could be due to a copper detoxification reaction or

something unrelated (e.g. stress) or a negative reaction to one or more

of the supplements. You don't need more B-vitamins. Testing homocysteine

is recommended periodically with methionine supplementation. Not

knowing/remembering much of your history it is a bit hard for me to

comment. Maybe you are not compatible with methionine and it takes a few

months for the effects to catch up with you. Some people have excess

manganese levels. B6 are best taken first thing in the morning to avoid

causing sleep problems. I think you have enough B12 to support these

pathways. If you have a MTHFR polymorphism this makes things a bit more

complecated. Magnesium should be chelated with chemicals such as

glycinate, aspartate, malate, orotate, etc.

Regards, Blake

yildiz wrote:

> Blake,

>

> I had some questions in mind but I hesitated to ask you as I still

> could not

> have my cu/zn/ceruloplasmin tests done due to some unexpected problems

> with

> my lab tests..It seems that I won't be able to have them done soon as

> I am

> quite tired at this point and I will have to leave the city soon for

> couple

> of month.During that time I won't be able to have any tests done or

> contact

> with anyone at web.I don't know what I should do with this regimen during

> that time.As I saw your note,I thought may be it would be better for

> me to

> ask before I leave.

>

> I have been using 500 mg of l methionine,about 30 mg of zinc,8 mg of

> manganese,150 mcg molybdenum,100 mcg chromium,50 mg p5p daily for my

> copper

> toxicity and high histamine problems for the last 3.5 months. I also

> use 1

> tablet of b-50(Only one because I was tested high in folic acid. This

> B-50

> contains 100 mcg folic acid.Lowest I could find) and EPO.(Also taking

> about

> 400 mg of Ca,300 mg of mag,vit c,E,D,etc,)

>

> I was only able to have my folic acid test recently. It was out of top

> limit

> 4 months ago. It is within the limits now.

>

> When I first began this regimen I saw great improvement.My insomnia

> almost

> disappeared,dream recall started,constipation decreased.my brain problems

> lessened. I know that this regimen helped me but for the last month I

> don't

> seem to have the benefits continue. I started not having dream recall

> again.

> Started having some insomnia from time to time and my brain problems

> started

> to increase.I wonder what could be the cause for this? Is this due to a

> problem in this regimen or is it due to another problem(I had some stress

> lately). I don't have any idea on that.I wanted to ask you if there

> could be

> any possible causes of this due to my copper toxicity regimen. Do I need

> other b vitamins more? Is there anything missing? Did I develop another

> deficiency due to being on this protocol for 3.5 months? I could not

> understand. My serum (or blood) B12 was high a year ago so I did not take

> B12 this year.Would you think I also need B12 to support this regimen?

> There

> must be a problem somewhere.Would you think above supplements in above

> given

> quantities may create a problem within 3.5 months?Lately I started

> trying to

> give brake to l-methionine but I see that it is not the time yet to

> stop as

> my insomnia turns back. Also whenever I try to decrease any of the

> supplements given above my insomnia comes back.I am aware that I don't

> have

> much data in hand to forward you a question but still wished to take your

> opinion thinking that you might have some insight..

>

> Thanks and best wishes.

> Nil

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much Blake for insights.These were very valuable.

> It's hard to say, Could be due to a copper detoxification reaction or

> something unrelated (e.g. stress) or a negative reaction to one or more

> of the supplements. You don't need more B-vitamins.

Great,thanks I was worried about this.

Testing homocysteine

> is recommended periodically with methionine supplementation.

Thanks for warning. I will do my best to have a test.

Not

> knowing/remembering much of your history it is a bit hard for me to

> comment. Maybe you are not compatible with methionine and it takes a few

> months for the effects to catch up with you. Some people have excess

> manganese levels.

Yes,it might be manganese. I had noticed no significant positive effect

after incorporating it to my regimen but I kept taking it as it was said at

web that taking zinc for long terms without manganese would create problems.

I will give a brake to that for a while or at least decrease the dosage.

B6 are best taken first thing in the morning to avoid

> causing sleep problems. I think you have enough B12 to support these

> pathways. If you have a MTHFR polymorphism this makes things a bit more

> complecated. Magnesium should be chelated with chemicals such as

> glycinate, aspartate, malate, orotate, etc.

>

>

I made a quick search on MTHFR polymorphism but could not understand it well

at this point. I might forward questions to you later about that.

Thanks a again. this was very helpful.

Nil