Re: What a true Herx is.......

[Guest guest]

Hi PB,

I agree with your post. We simply do not know what is

happening to PWME and CFS who take antibiotics or

other meds, feel worse and are told that it is a good

thing and they are " herxing " .

In the mid-80's I belonged to a support group for PWME

and the fashionable theory for a while was Candida. We

had a doctor who prescribed Nystatin and we all felt

worse on it. None of us had reasonable health

improvements, although we took this drug, did the diet

etc.

We gave Nystatin to a group of relatives, friends and

co-workers to see the result. They largely reported

feeling terrible and " malaisy " on it. Just like the

PWME.

I know that this is not a good experiment, flawed and

open to all sorts of interpretations.

Another example of how much this varies is that I

belong to a group that looks at infections and

infertility.

They are tested for infections. Members are on high

dose antibiotics and they DO NOT report herxing or

major reactions. I asked the group and was amazed that

none of them had the severe reactions that I have.

This is a very complicated topic and not helped by the

fact we are all different on these groups and what

works for one harms another.

I've not had a " herx " reaction that has led to an

improvement in my health.

With warmest regards,

Annette

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[Guest guest]

I don't claim to know why doxy makes me better, nor why it caused " herx'ing " as

I ramped up. But nobody has a better explanation, and it seems like some of you

are just trying to make a point about definitions vs what happened with

Syphillis when Herx got its name from Herxeimer. If your point is that

sometimes people are just having bad reactions, I agree with you. I have had

plenty of bad reactions to things including other antibiotics. To me the

reaction I had to doxy where it would last the rest of the day when I took a

dose and lessened over time as I got better, that fits the definition of herx

which is reaction from die off of bacteria. Some posts are saying it could be

sinus bacteria, or whatever. Who cares? I never claimed to know what it is

killing. I don't even write off the fact that something else could be going on.

I posted several possibilities many times.

But other than to warn people that not all reactions are positive and should be

" worked through " , I don't get the point. Sure, but sometimes they should be

worked through. If I didn't work through I would never have gotten better.

Also although I have never had this situation, many people have to build up

things like glutahione or detoxing because doing it too fast makes them feel

sick. Probably they are overloading their liver's ability to detox, or

something like that. It is basically a concept that die-off too fast is too

much for your body to handle so you get side effects. You want to call it

something else than Herx, fine, come up with a better word. But for most people

it is useful and they understand it.

And as far as needing to take MORE antibiotics to kill the bacteria, sounds

great in theory, but that means a huge attack with the perfect antibiotic,

probably by IV which most people can't get even if they can get a lab test to

tell them what bacteria they have.

Anyway this is a dumb thread and now that I am well I have better things to do!

Feel free to continue to argue!

Doris

[Guest guest]

Doris, I am so glad you are well. I don't know if you are the same Doris but

I knew a Doris on another message board who was extremely ill a year or so

ago. If you are that same person I am really glad for you. I agree with this

thread. I don't know if it is a herx or whatever, but I do know I have been

severely sick from antibiotics but I persist and I continue to get better.

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of Doris Brown

Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 1:50 PM

Subject: Re: What a true " Herx " is.......

I don't claim to know why doxy makes me better, nor why it caused " herx'ing "

as I ramped up. But nobody has a better explanation, and it seems like some

of you are just trying to make a point about definitions vs what happened

with Syphillis when Herx got its name from Herxeimer. If your point is that

sometimes people are just having bad reactions, I agree with you. I have

had plenty of bad reactions to things including other antibiotics. To me

the reaction I had to doxy where it would last the rest of the day when I

took a dose and lessened over time as I got better, that fits the definition

of herx which is reaction from die off of bacteria. Some posts are saying

it could be sinus bacteria, or whatever. Who cares? I never claimed to

know what it is killing. I don't even write off the fact that something

else could be going on. I posted several possibilities many times.

But other than to warn people that not all reactions are positive and should

be " worked through " , I don't get the point. Sure, but sometimes they should

be worked through. If I didn't work through I would never have gotten

better. Also although I have never had this situation, many people have to

build up things like glutahione or detoxing because doing it too fast makes

them feel sick. Probably they are overloading their liver's ability to

detox, or something like that. It is basically a concept that die-off too

fast is too much for your body to handle so you get side effects. You want

to call it something else than Herx, fine, come up with a better word. But

for most people it is useful and they understand it.

And as far as needing to take MORE antibiotics to kill the bacteria, sounds

great in theory, but that means a huge attack with the perfect antibiotic,

probably by IV which most people can't get even if they can get a lab test

to tell them what bacteria they have.

Anyway this is a dumb thread and now that I am well I have better things to

do! Feel free to continue to argue!

Doris

[Guest guest]

Doris

The reason why we are a little rough around the edges about this

term is that 'we want the best science to get us well'. Just in case

you haven't been around forum's the past few years- people get

better on doxy or mino yet they don't get the complete cure and

often relapse on the disconyinuation of the drug. The other ugly

fact is taht some people never get to a decent level on these drugs.

So I personally want to put the whole herxing story to bed because

none of it is true. Not even the killing of large numbers of gram

negative bacteria fit the description of herx.

It's basically a loose canon term that keeps people sick

unnecessarily. Yourself having progresed as you have can sit there

and say I don't give a rats but it's the poor souls that are dying

and violently ill ending up at ER rooms that your not observing that

need a better definition of what is happening to them.

So it would be smart for yourself even to know that adding a second

antibacterial agent may progress you forward and possably to a

complete remission, instead of supportung a dead duck call(herx).

> Doris, I am so glad you are well. I don't know if you are the same

Doris but

> I knew a Doris on another message board who was extremely ill a

year or so

> ago. If you are that same person I am really glad for you. I agree

with this

> thread. I don't know if it is a herx or whatever, but I do know I

have been

> severely sick from antibiotics but I persist and I continue to get

better.

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From:

> [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Doris Brown

> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 1:50 PM

>

> Subject: Re: What a true " Herx " is.......

>

>

>

> I don't claim to know why doxy makes me better, nor why it

caused " herx'ing "

> as I ramped up. But nobody has a better explanation, and it seems

like some

> of you are just trying to make a point about definitions vs what

happened

> with Syphillis when Herx got its name from Herxeimer. If your

point is that

> sometimes people are just having bad reactions, I agree with you.

I have

> had plenty of bad reactions to things including other

antibiotics. To me

> the reaction I had to doxy where it would last the rest of the day

when I

> took a dose and lessened over time as I got better, that fits the

definition

> of herx which is reaction from die off of bacteria. Some posts

are saying

> it could be sinus bacteria, or whatever. Who cares? I never

claimed to

> know what it is killing. I don't even write off the fact that

something

> else could be going on. I posted several possibilities many times.

>

> But other than to warn people that not all reactions are positive

and should

> be " worked through " , I don't get the point. Sure, but sometimes

they should

> be worked through. If I didn't work through I would never have

gotten

> better. Also although I have never had this situation, many

people have to

> build up things like glutahione or detoxing because doing it too

fast makes

> them feel sick. Probably they are overloading their liver's

ability to

> detox, or something like that. It is basically a concept that die-

off too

> fast is too much for your body to handle so you get side effects.

You want

> to call it something else than Herx, fine, come up with a better

word. But

> for most people it is useful and they understand it.

>

> And as far as needing to take MORE antibiotics to kill the

bacteria, sounds

> great in theory, but that means a huge attack with the perfect

antibiotic,

> probably by IV which most people can't get even if they can get a

lab test

> to tell them what bacteria they have.

>

> Anyway this is a dumb thread and now that I am well I have better

things to

> do! Feel free to continue to argue!

>

> Doris

>

>

[Guest guest]

Trying to find a post to reply to in this thread where it hasn't

twisted off into further debate. Just wanted to relate my experience

with different drug reactions.

I've definitely experienced herxing, mostly with Candida meds. 1st

Nystatin course was a strong herx, about a week of flu-like symptoms.

After that, herxing if going back on the nystating after slacking off

(and realising was having candida symptoms again of depression,

weakness, malaise) Or if I added something like Olive Leaf extract,

I'd get quite a strong herx.

Herx was always a specific pattern - 1st quite bad depression &

confusion & strange thoughts; then my head would clear & I'd feel a

flu-like achiness and burning in my muscles. But it was a shift in

pain from the usual, almost a more superficial pain & I'd feel

stronger deeper in the muscles, swelling would go down and I'd be

quite happy & clear mentally. These symptoms would pass and I'd feel

better than before the meds.

That's how I know a candida herx - if I'm worse, but in another way

feel better and stronger, and then as herx symptoms go, feel better

overall. I've had this with abx too; but from neither antifungals nor

abx for a long time. I don't believe the reaction is from underdosing

- I've had more intense reactions the more I took. And Nizoral

(stronger) equalled too much die-off. It followed the herx pattern,

but so much more intensely - I felt suicidal and psychotic, and the

muscle pain and inflammation was excruciating and unendurable.

I don't believe that even that was underdosing and if I'd stepped it

up or had IV it would magically get better with no die-off... I can't

imagine how with all those chemicals the little beasts produce. I

stupidly tried to stick it out, but only got better once I stopped the

med.

A bad reaction to a drug (which is almost every drug for me) is very

different - I get very weak and have motor skill trouble, oedema that

restricts muscle movement, bad depression and confusion, and liver

symptoms.

Another reaction I've identified that I sometimes wonder if other

people maybe mistake for a herx is where something like a herb,

vitamin, supplement is quite energising and does its job of making you

feel better in some way, but is sort of forcefully stimulating your

body, just like exercise would. It's a very similar feeling to me to

when you try to do exercise and the flu-like achiness and inflammation

comes on. I worry that people mistake that for a herx but otherwise I

do believe most here know their reactions well, and can distinguish

herx vs drug reaction.

> > > > herx has taken on a life of it's own , thanks to the internet.

> > > > A herx reaction only lasts 4 days , it can last 8 days in an

> > elderly

> > > patient

> > > > simply because nothing works like it use to at 70.

> > >

> > > Bob,

> > >

> > > I suggest you go to Lymenet.org and make that statement and see

> > what

> > > kind of response you get. You will see that this is simply not

> > true

> > > in regard to Lyme disease. Numerous Lyme doctors and patients

> have

> > > stated it can last weeks, even months and I know people who have

> > had

> > > it happen.

[Guest guest]

What your trying to describe here smells to me a lot

like 'fasciitis' type infection. You have an infection between

area's that comes on line when it's irritated by bringing on

inflammation and whatever else infections like this do.Your bugs are

virtually siting in a no mans zone until you start moving- then

they start hurting you is possably another way of looking at it.

I'm sure many here have many don't touch me there zones?

tony

> > > > > herx has taken on a life of it's own , thanks to the

internet.

> > > > > A herx reaction only lasts 4 days , it can last 8 days in

an

> > > elderly

> > > > patient

> > > > > simply because nothing works like it use to at 70.

> > > >

> > > > Bob,

> > > >

> > > > I suggest you go to Lymenet.org and make that statement and

see

> > > what

> > > > kind of response you get. You will see that this is simply

not

> > > true

> > > > in regard to Lyme disease. Numerous Lyme doctors and

patients

> > have

> > > > stated it can last weeks, even months and I know people who

have

> > > had

> > > > it happen.

[Guest guest]

Interesting Tony... I do have very severe myofascial pain, and just

looking up fasciitis then I found out it can be like scleroderma but

with the fascia instead of the skin. I've always thought my case had a

lot of scleroderma parallels, and finding out there's a condition

where fascia could be affected rather than skin is quite enlightening

- so thank you for mentioning this.

Yeah the movement thing sounds about right. I have to stay as still as

possible all day, and even things that don't sound strenous like

standing in a pool can bring on a bodywide inflammatory attack. I know

it's meant to take strain off the muscles, but for me it challenges my

weakened postural muscles.

I wonder if the hypermobility since childhood predisposes me to these

problems, because you're subject to constant low-level injury and

inflammation.

> > > > > > herx has taken on a life of it's own , thanks to the

> internet.

> > > > > > A herx reaction only lasts 4 days , it can last 8 days in

> an

> > > > elderly

> > > > > patient

> > > > > > simply because nothing works like it use to at 70.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bob,

> > > > >

> > > > > I suggest you go to Lymenet.org and make that statement and

> see

> > > > what

> > > > > kind of response you get. You will see that this is simply

> not

> > > > true

> > > > > in regard to Lyme disease. Numerous Lyme doctors and

> patients

> > > have

> > > > > stated it can last weeks, even months and I know people who

> have

> > > > had

> > > > > it happen.