Re: What a true Herx is.......

August 2, 2005

herx has taken on a life of it's own , thanks to the internet.

A herx reaction only lasts 4 days , it can last 8 days in an elderly patient

simply because nothing works like it use to at 70.

> Hi,

>

> I see this word and term " I'm herxing " beyond overused on this

> forum. People say they are herxing from glutathione as well as many

> other treatments talked about on this forum.

>

> I'm no expert but this is the term defined:

>

> The Jarisch -Herxheimer, or Herxheimer reaction, was named for the

> German dermatologist, Karl Herxheimer (1844-1947). Dorlands Medical

> Dictionary refers to the Herxheimer reaction as a transient, short-

> term, immunological reaction commonly seen following antibiotic

> treatment of early and later stage [infectious] diseases which [may

> be] manifested by fever, chills, headache, myalgias (muscle pain),

> and exacerbations of cutaneous lesions. The reaction has been

> attributed to liberation of endotoxins-like substances or of

> antigens (a substance which causes an immune reaction) from the

> killed or dying microorganisms.

>

> Lyme experts and Syphilis experts as well I suppose know the last

> sentence the best. I believe Karl was treating Syphilis with

> antibiotics when he noticed this effect; I could be wrong. When a

> spirochette dies it releases an endotoxin and you feel worse. When

> your body eliminates these endotoxins the worsening of symptoms

> subsides. Some Lyme patients have noticed " herxes " that have lasted

> months so the definition isn't completely accurate. Others notice a

> more cyclical nature.

>

> Note that the definition states " ....a transient, short-term,

> immunological reaction commonly seen following ANTIBIOTIC

> treatment... "

>

> Many people using Rife frequencies for Lyme and other " alternative "

> therapies have noticed this effect as well.

>

> Now I ask those of you who have said you are herxing on glutathione,

> some kind of heavy metal detox agent, Vitamin D etc. or have started

> a therapy and are feeling worse, how do you know it is a true

> herxheimer reaction? How do you know you are killing a pathogen

> that is releasing an endotoxin causing an immune response? The

> answer is you don't and if you did you would know you probably have

> Lyme or Syphilis but according to what I've read, none of these

> agents kill Bb.

>

> I don't mean to preach, just understand what you are saying. Some

> people consider a worsening of symptoms a good thing, but in the

> past it has never been a good sign for me. For example I felt worse

> after injecting hGh and it took me months to get back to baseline.

> Not a herx. Please don't confuse many/most worsening of symptoms as

> a herx. Yes, some non antibiotic agents are capable of killing Bb

> and causing a herx, but not the most of the ones that are mentioned

> here.

>

> PB

>

August 2, 2005

> herx has taken on a life of it's own , thanks to the internet.

> A herx reaction only lasts 4 days , it can last 8 days in an elderly

patient

> simply because nothing works like it use to at 70.

Bob,

I suggest you go to Lymenet.org and make that statement and see what

kind of response you get. You will see that this is simply not true

in regard to Lyme disease. Numerous Lyme doctors and patients have

stated it can last weeks, even months and I know people who have had

it happen.

August 2, 2005

Guys

The whole herx thing is a complete joke. When you undermedicate or use

a substance that annoys bacteria you suffer from there antimicrobial

fight back mechanisms.I would never sit around suffering this nonsense

I would just pop another abx.Actually Mr. herxheimer died before

anyone uderstood the mechanisms of antibiotioc resistance. So why his

crap is being constantly rehatched as gospel is very troubling to me.

tony

> > herx has taken on a life of it's own , thanks to the internet.

> > A herx reaction only lasts 4 days , it can last 8 days in an

elderly

> patient

> > simply because nothing works like it use to at 70.

>

> Bob,

>

> I suggest you go to Lymenet.org and make that statement and see what

> kind of response you get. You will see that this is simply not true

> in regard to Lyme disease. Numerous Lyme doctors and patients have

> stated it can last weeks, even months and I know people who have had

> it happen.

August 2, 2005

I'm definitely no stranger to lyme or lymenet.org

The lymers have reinvented herx to a meaningful/meaningless term for

explaining something they don't understand.

I know somebody who has been herxing from lyme for 15 years. She's

convinced !!!

>

> > herx has taken on a life of it's own , thanks to the internet.

> > A herx reaction only lasts 4 days , it can last 8 days in an elderly

> patient

> > simply because nothing works like it use to at 70.

>

> Bob,

>

> I suggest you go to Lymenet.org and make that statement and see what

> kind of response you get. You will see that this is simply not true

> in regard to Lyme disease. Numerous Lyme doctors and patients have

> stated it can last weeks, even months and I know people who have had

> it happen.

>

August 2, 2005

>

> Guys

> The whole herx thing is a complete joke. When you undermedicate or

use

> a substance that annoys bacteria you suffer from there antimicrobial

> fight back mechanisms.I would never sit around suffering this

nonsense

> I would just pop another abx.Actually Mr. herxheimer died before

> anyone uderstood the mechanisms of antibiotioc resistance. So why his

> crap is being constantly rehatched as gospel is very troubling to me.

> tony.

Tony, There is no doubt a herx reaction as I have felt it many times.

Now if I understand you right when I have it from taking a teaspoon of

lipoceutical GSH that I just need to take another teaspoon or maybe 4-5

tablespoons?

Bob

August 2, 2005

I agree with Bob, although we are obviously in the minority.

I have posted this on Lymenet.. and for several years in fact.

And on this list and on other lists.

I have come to the conclusion, that the word is just being used

incorrectly, and for lack of another word... and that sometimes drug

reactions are called 'herx' and sometimes a herx is confused with a

drug reaction.

So I don't argue my case anymore..

But I have never seen any one able to offer data in their defense of

statements like 'herx's can last weeks and months'... Herx is

similar to sepsis. There are immune blood markers that can be

measured onjectively, rather than subjective discription.

Barb

> > herx has taken on a life of it's own , thanks to the internet.

> > A herx reaction only lasts 4 days , it can last 8 days in an

elderly

> patient

> > simply because nothing works like it use to at 70.

>

> Bob,

>

> I suggest you go to Lymenet.org and make that statement and see

what

> kind of response you get. You will see that this is simply not

true

> in regard to Lyme disease. Numerous Lyme doctors and patients have

> stated it can last weeks, even months and I know people who have

had

> it happen.

August 2, 2005

> There is no doubt

That's exactly my point. You are sure of your herx reaction - why -

because you BELIEVE you are herxing. It seems like you figured it out in

your own head.

Bob - I have noticed that you never mentioned what herxing IS.

>

> >

> > Guys

> > The whole herx thing is a complete joke. When you undermedicate or

> use

> > a substance that annoys bacteria you suffer from there antimicrobial

> > fight back mechanisms.I would never sit around suffering this

> nonsense

> > I would just pop another abx.Actually Mr. herxheimer died before

> > anyone uderstood the mechanisms of antibiotioc resistance. So why his

> > crap is being constantly rehatched as gospel is very troubling to me.

> > tony.

>

> Tony, There is no doubt a herx reaction as I have felt it many times.

> Now if I understand you right when I have it from taking a teaspoon of

> lipoceutical GSH that I just need to take another teaspoon or maybe 4-5

> tablespoons?

>

> Bob

>

August 2, 2005

Bob

Many have what is known as allergies? The problem is what do you

consider an allergy to be?It's either something your immune system

reacts to,or someothing between your immune system and the

envoironment. As you can observe when you come to this forum there's

a high percentage of antibiotic responders? Now if you have some

bacterial organism between your immune system and the envronment

you have the perfect trigger when certain requirements are met.You

take a substance and depending on it's perceived threat level,your

bacteria responds, you go to an allergy driven enmvironment,the

bacteria responds due to it's threat level being triggered.(oh I

think I'm under antibiotic attack,thinks the highly resistant

bacteria that normally resides in your sinus)..

So basically putting an agent in low dosage that kills bacteria,

islso placing a response requiremnt when your dealing with high

antibiotic resistance in organisms.Remembre in real medicine people

go into hospital and get drugs administered at levels sometimes a

hundred times greater than what occurs in autoimmune circles.If you

took a huge infection and dealt with it inappropriately you'd be

stupid not to expect a reaction.

> >

> > Guys

> > The whole herx thing is a complete joke. When you undermedicate

or

> use

> > a substance that annoys bacteria you suffer from there

antimicrobial

> > fight back mechanisms.I would never sit around suffering this

> nonsense

> > I would just pop another abx.Actually Mr. herxheimer died before

> > anyone uderstood the mechanisms of antibiotioc resistance. So

why his

> > crap is being constantly rehatched as gospel is very troubling

to me.

> > tony.

>

> Tony, There is no doubt a herx reaction as I have felt it many

times.

> Now if I understand you right when I have it from taking a

teaspoon of

> lipoceutical GSH that I just need to take another teaspoon or

maybe 4-5

> tablespoons?

>

> Bob

August 2, 2005

I must admit , you lost me. I have no idea what the point is.

Allergic reaction is another one of those redefined medical terms. An allergic

reaction is well defined and easily measured.

The perfect example is someone being allergic to cows milk. Once the person

realizes they are lactose intolerant they can't say they are allergic to it

anymore.

> Bob

> Many have what is known as allergies? The problem is what do you

> consider an allergy to be?It's either something your immune system

> reacts to,or someothing between your immune system and the

> envoironment. As you can observe when you come to this forum there's

> a high percentage of antibiotic responders? Now if you have some

> bacterial organism between your immune system and the envronment

> you have the perfect trigger when certain requirements are met.You

> take a substance and depending on it's perceived threat level,your

> bacteria responds, you go to an allergy driven enmvironment,the

> bacteria responds due to it's threat level being triggered.(oh I

> think I'm under antibiotic attack,thinks the highly resistant

> bacteria that normally resides in your sinus)..

> So basically putting an agent in low dosage that kills bacteria,

> islso placing a response requiremnt when your dealing with high

> antibiotic resistance in organisms.Remembre in real medicine people

> go into hospital and get drugs administered at levels sometimes a

> hundred times greater than what occurs in autoimmune circles.If you

> took a huge infection and dealt with it inappropriately you'd be

> stupid not to expect a reaction.

>

August 2, 2005

I agree. " Herx " is being used incorrectly much too frequently, and

possibly dangerously, especially when it encourages people to stick

with bad protocols just because they feel worse and that's supposed

to be a good thing (rather than a possibly ineffective thing, or a

downright toxic thing).

You don't hear of people on major i.v. abx in the hospital with life

threatening infections, " herxing " . They start feeling better as soon

as the drug starts to work.

I've had some mild herxes when I take a really effective drug, which

are gone in a couple of days and I start feeling better, fast.

penny

> > > herx has taken on a life of it's own , thanks to the internet.

> > > A herx reaction only lasts 4 days , it can last 8 days in an

> elderly

> > patient

> > > simply because nothing works like it use to at 70.

> >

> > Bob,

> >

> > I suggest you go to Lymenet.org and make that statement and see

> what

> > kind of response you get. You will see that this is simply not

> true

> > in regard to Lyme disease. Numerous Lyme doctors and patients

have

> > stated it can last weeks, even months and I know people who have

> had

> > it happen.

August 2, 2005

Bobjoy herx-

You just quoted someone relaying an experience from watching a late

stage syphilis sufferer and it's known as 'HERXHEIMER REACTION'.How

can anyone in 1947 know anything about antibiotics and there

interactions with bacteria?They have only received them in the past

year or so. The other thing that is not evident is how so frequently

the early diagnosed syphilis sufferer just gets well without any

type of fanfare.My point is that we must alway's put the patient and

his requirements of traetment to fit snugly with the therapy

correctly.

Then, when you have allergies to me your a responder. What I mean by

this is that somethjing in your body gets a smell it doesn't like or

hits an environment like an old clothing shop and responds. This

response and the herxheimer reaction to me are giving the same

signal.You either have an immune system which is sensitive and fires

off at any allergic oppurtunity or there's something in the middle

like the 700billion bacteria that live all over your body that

stimulate the response.Just saying allergy means nothing, as does

herx.

The fact that 96.8% of cfs sufferers have sinusitis tends to lead me

to believe that we have an infective agent that can be that missing

link(responder).

Anyways I'll try it a different way later, if I can think of anyway

of putting it differently.

tony

> I must admit , you lost me. I have no idea what the point is.

>

> Allergic reaction is another one of those redefined medical

terms. An allergic reaction is well defined and easily measured.

>

> The perfect example is someone being allergic to cows milk. Once

the person realizes they are lactose intolerant they can't say they

are allergic to it anymore.

>

> > Bob

> > Many have what is known as allergies? The problem is what do you

> > consider an allergy to be?It's either something your immune

system

> > reacts to,or someothing between your immune system and the

> > envoironment. As you can observe when you come to this forum

there's

> > a high percentage of antibiotic responders? Now if you have some

> > bacterial organism between your immune system and the envronment

> > you have the perfect trigger when certain requirements are

met.You

> > take a substance and depending on it's perceived threat

level,your

> > bacteria responds, you go to an allergy driven enmvironment,the

> > bacteria responds due to it's threat level being triggered.(oh I

> > think I'm under antibiotic attack,thinks the highly resistant

> > bacteria that normally resides in your sinus)..

> > So basically putting an agent in low dosage that kills bacteria,

> > islso placing a response requiremnt when your dealing with high

> > antibiotic resistance in organisms.Remembre in real medicine

people

> > go into hospital and get drugs administered at levels sometimes a

> > hundred times greater than what occurs in autoimmune circles.If

you

> > took a huge infection and dealt with it inappropriately you'd be

> > stupid not to expect a reaction.

> >

>

August 3, 2005

Tony,

It could be that you meant intolerance but not allergy. For example I am

intolerant of magnesium stearate in supplements. When ever I have something

that contains it,I get inflamed,my brain fog increases and I start feeling

aches all over. If I continue using that product thinking that I am herxing

for long time than it would harm me. Best wishes

Nil

Re: What a true " Herx " is.......

> Bobjoy herx-

> You just quoted someone relaying an experience from watching a late

> stage syphilis sufferer and it's known as 'HERXHEIMER REACTION'.How

> can anyone in 1947 know anything about antibiotics and there

> interactions with bacteria?They have only received them in the past

> year or so. The other thing that is not evident is how so frequently

> the early diagnosed syphilis sufferer just gets well without any

> type of fanfare.My point is that we must alway's put the patient and

> his requirements of traetment to fit snugly with the therapy

>

August 3, 2005

Tony-

Neither Bob or I are saying there ISN'T a reaction between abx and

bugs - or the immune system and allergens.

There are loalized reactions, mild, moderate and severe reactions to

alot of things - but Herx is a severe systemic reaction with fever.

Herx reactions are similar to sepsis - severe.. you don't see people

with a bronchitis going around saying they have sepsis when they take

abx.

There needs to be another word for the many reactions people get when

of abx, especially for gram neg bacteria.

Barb

> > >

> > > Guys

> > > The whole herx thing is a complete joke. When you undermedicate

> or

> > use

> > > a substance that annoys bacteria you suffer from there

> antimicrobial

> > > fight back mechanisms.I would never sit around suffering this

> > nonsense

> > > I would just pop another abx.Actually Mr. herxheimer died

before

> > > anyone uderstood the mechanisms of antibiotioc resistance. So

> why his

> > > crap is being constantly rehatched as gospel is very troubling

> to me.

> > > tony.

> >

> > Tony, There is no doubt a herx reaction as I have felt it many

> times.

> > Now if I understand you right when I have it from taking a

> teaspoon of

> > lipoceutical GSH that I just need to take another teaspoon or

> maybe 4-5

> > tablespoons?

> >

> > Bob

August 3, 2005

An allergic reaction is a histamine reaction. And don't lose the concept that

a histamine reaction is an immune system reaction.

An infection is autonomous bacteria releasing small amounts of toxins into the

body. These toxins might better be understood as small amounts of poisons.

A herx is when a lot of these bacteria die and break apart releasing it's entire

existence into the body , lots of poison. The body partly must switch from

infection to cleaning up the poison. That doesn't mean that if you have a bad

day or week that you are herxing.

When you have staph poisoning you are not reacting to a bacteria. Your nerves

are being stimulated by one of the waste products of the staph.

My main point is the many people are mixing and matching all of these well known

concepts to the point that they are meaningless babble due to redefinition of

the concepts. Lymers herx yet FMSers cycle , CFSers crash , healthy people

have bad days or weeks. Pick your medical religion on the net, defend it

with a vengence , make a mess of everything.

I must admit I do the same thing. When I get a very bad cold I call it the

flu. When I say I'm dying I don't mean that either. I've had the flu

twice and see why it kills the very young and very old.

I say I'm allergic to eggs , they make my knees hurt. Yet I know I'm not

allergic to eggs because I don't have a histamine reaction. I have/had

osteoarthritis which is aggravated by egg protein.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note before penicillin the concept of antibiotics was well known. The problem

was that drugs like quinine weren't very good next to penicillin.

96.8% of cfs sufferers have sinusitis tends to lead me to believe that we have

lousy immune systems with inappropriate responses. Healthy people keep these

common pathogens in check symptom free.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My site = http://www.geocities.com/GuaiWhey/

- Bob Joy