Re: Whey revisited - denatured vs not - Rich et al

[Guest guest]

p.s. - at least one of the products infers that heat (in the

denaturing process?) causes damage - but does heat reduce the

efficacy? Also, I think Rich mentions cysteine and other ingredients

as desirable

> There's lots of good info in the forum re whey, including 73117,

> 73162, and adjacent msg #s.

>

> There's Immunocal, ImmunePro (renamed to RenewPro?), BioChem,

> DreamProtein, and probably more I can't recall.

>

> Do I understand correctly that nondenatured whey is, overall,

> pontentially better for us than denatured whey? Not only for boosting

> GSH but aslo for other present sub-ingredients that might be

> beneficial to us?

>

> With thanks,

> Lance

[Guest guest]

Hi, Lance.

Yes, I believe that's correct. Generally speaking, there are three

main categories of whey protein available. The cheapest is the whey

protein that is a byproduct of cheesemaking, and has thus been

through pasteurization and acid treatment, without any subsequent

efforts to remove denatured proteins. This is the stuff sold in the

big plastic jars in health food stores, drugstores, and bodybuilding

shops. It is very good protein for human nutrition in general, but

isn't very good for building glutathione, particularly in a person

who is depleted in it.

The second category includes the whey protein isolates, such as

Immunocal and Imuplus and now, quite a few others. These are still

byproducts of cheesemaking, but they have not been subjected to

additional high temperature processing, and efforts are made to

remove the denatured proteins. These isolate products are

called " undenatured, " which is really a misnomer, since a protein

cannot be " undenatured " after it has been denatured, but what they

mean is that the denatured proteins have been removed. These

products are quite a bit better for building glutathione, I think

because they have more of their cysteine in the form of cysteine,

rather than oxidized to cystine, as is the case in the first

category. The liver cells are much more able to import cysteine

than cystine in a person who is glutathione-depleted. Cysteine is

the rate-limiting amino acid for making glutathione, and the liver

is normally the biggest glutathione producer in the body, so this is

important.

The third category includes the whey protein concentrates. As far

as I know, the only ones in this category that are sold

commmercially are ImmunoPro Rx and RenewPro, both products of Well

Wisdom. These are not byproducts of cheesemaking. The starting

material for these products is raw cow's milk. The processing

temperatures are kept low, and there is no acid treatment. These

products include the peptides, immunoglobulins and lactoferrin that

are found in the original milk, as well as the other whey proteins

that are temperature sensitive. Though I do not have quantitative

numbers, I believe that more of the cysteine in these products is

present as actual unoxidized cysteine that in those of the second

category.

I think that the observed higher " potency " reported by PWCs for

ImmunoPro Rx compared to the whey protein isolates results from some

combination of the peptides, the immunoglobulins, the lactoferrin,

and the higher content of actual cysteine found in ImmunoPro Rx, and

now also RenewPro. Note that RenewPro is not exactly the same as

ImmunoPro Rx, but it is very similar in these respects. Note also

that some of the isolate products in the second category have

lactoferrin added back in from a separate process that does not

destroy the lactoferrin. Lactoferrin is important for killing

yeasts and undesirable bacteria in the gut, and for helping to

absorb iron.

I hope this addresses your questions.

Rich

> There's lots of good info in the forum re whey, including 73117,

> 73162, and adjacent msg #s.

>

> There's Immunocal, ImmunePro (renamed to RenewPro?), BioChem,

> DreamProtein, and probably more I can't recall.

>

> Do I understand correctly that nondenatured whey is, overall,

> pontentially better for us than denatured whey? Not only for

boosting

> GSH but aslo for other present sub-ingredients that might be

> beneficial to us?

>

> With thanks,

> Lance

[Guest guest]

Thanks very much Rich - that was very helpful and clarifying. Thank

you, too, Adrienne

It looks like

http://wellnesswatchers.com/member_back.php?name=product_protein

fits into Cat 2

Rgds,

Lance

> Hi, Lance.

>

> Yes, I believe that's correct. Generally speaking, there are three

> main categories of whey protein available. The cheapest is the whey

> protein that is a byproduct of cheesemaking, and has thus been

> snip

[Guest guest]

Rich;

The product I am using, Dream Protein,, contains a blend of three forms;

isolate, concentrate, and " hydrolyzed. " I am not sure, but I believe the

hydrolyzed started as isolate.

On the phone they said the product was " 100% " undenatured. Maybe in the

sense you explained?

Here is a bit I learned about the hydrolyzed whey while searching/surfing:

'Hydrolyzed Peptides are abundant in L-Glutamine, L-Glutamic Acid, and

naturally occurring L-Tryptophan.' (IS THE GLUTAMIC ACID SOMETHING TO BE

AVOIDED?)oops.

Hydrolized means the long aminos are broken down into shorter peptides; ie

partially predigested. More easily assimilated.

I have read that the point of combining them is each is differently

valuable.

adrienne

Hi, Lance.

Yes, I believe that's correct. Generally speaking, there are three

main categories of whey protein available. The cheapest is the whey

protein that is a byproduct of cheesemaking, and has thus been

through pasteurization and acid treatment, without any subsequent

efforts to remove denatured proteins. This is the stuff sold in the

big plastic jars in health food stores, drugstores, and bodybuilding

shops. It is very good protein for human nutrition in general, but

isn't very good for building glutathione, particularly in a person

who is depleted in it.

The second category includes the whey protein isolates, such as

Immunocal and Imuplus and now, quite a few others. These are still

byproducts of cheesemaking, but they have not been subjected to

additional high temperature processing, and efforts are made to

remove the denatured proteins. These isolate products are

called " undenatured, " which is really a misnomer, since a protein

cannot be " undenatured " after it has been denatured, but what they

mean is that the denatured proteins have been removed. These

products are quite a bit better for building glutathione, I think

because they have more of their cysteine in the form of cysteine,

rather than oxidized to cystine, as is the case in the first

category. The liver cells are much more able to import cysteine

than cystine in a person who is glutathione-depleted. Cysteine is

the rate-limiting amino acid for making glutathione, and the liver

is normally the biggest glutathione producer in the body, so this is

important.

The third category includes the whey protein concentrates. As far

as I know, the only ones in this category that are sold

commmercially are ImmunoPro Rx and RenewPro, both products of Well

Wisdom. These are not byproducts of cheesemaking. The starting

material for these products is raw cow's milk. The processing

temperatures are kept low, and there is no acid treatment. These

products include the peptides, immunoglobulins and lactoferrin that

are found in the original milk, as well as the other whey proteins

that are temperature sensitive. Though I do not have quantitative

numbers, I believe that more of the cysteine in these products is

present as actual unoxidized cysteine that in those of the second

category.

I think that the observed higher " potency " reported by PWCs for

ImmunoPro Rx compared to the whey protein isolates results from some

combination of the peptides, the immunoglobulins, the lactoferrin,

and the higher content of actual cysteine found in ImmunoPro Rx, and

now also RenewPro. Note that RenewPro is not exactly the same as

ImmunoPro Rx, but it is very similar in these respects. Note also

that some of the isolate products in the second category have

lactoferrin added back in from a separate process that does not

destroy the lactoferrin. Lactoferrin is important for killing

yeasts and undesirable bacteria in the gut, and for helping to

absorb iron.

I hope this addresses your questions.

Rich

[Guest guest]

Actually, the website description as " isolate " does not match the ingredients on

the container itself. (See my recent post on the ingredients.) Unfortunate.

Adrienne

Re: Whey revisited - denatured vs not - Rich et

al

Thanks very much Rich - that was very helpful and clarifying. Thank

you, too, Adrienne

It looks like

http://wellnesswatchers.com/member_back.php?name=product_protein

fits into Cat 2

Rgds,

Lance

> Hi, Lance.

>

> Yes, I believe that's correct. Generally speaking, there are three

> main categories of whey protein available. The cheapest is the whey

> protein that is a byproduct of cheesemaking, and has thus been

> snip

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Here's a partial list of wheys

http://cfsgroups.org/discussion/view_topic.php?id=9662 & forum_id=7 & view_results=1

Some have reported good results with BioChem (google for " BioChem

whey " , and also reportedly available/orderable at WholeFoodsMarket

Lance

> Rich;

>

> The product I am using, Dream Protein,, contains a blend of three forms;

> isolate, concentrate, and " hydrolyzed. " I am not sure, but I believe the

> hydrolyzed started as isolate.

>

> On the phone they said the product was " 100% " undenatured. Maybe in the

> sense you explained?

>

> Here is a bit I learned about the hydrolyzed whey while

searching/surfing:

> 'Hydrolyzed Peptides are abundant in L-Glutamine, L-Glutamic Acid, and

> naturally occurring L-Tryptophan.' (IS THE GLUTAMIC ACID SOMETHING TO BE

> AVOIDED?)oops.

>

> Hydrolized means the long aminos are broken down into shorter

peptides; ie

> partially predigested. More easily assimilated.

> I have read that the point of combining them is each is differently

> valuable.

>

> adrienne

>

>

>

> Hi, Lance.

>

> Yes, I believe that's correct. Generally speaking, there are three

> main categories of whey protein available. The cheapest is the whey

> protein that is a byproduct of cheesemaking, and has thus been

> through pasteurization and acid treatment, without any subsequent

> efforts to remove denatured proteins. This is the stuff sold in the

> big plastic jars in health food stores, drugstores, and bodybuilding

> shops. It is very good protein for human nutrition in general, but

> isn't very good for building glutathione, particularly in a person

> who is depleted in it.

>

> The second category includes the whey protein isolates, such as

> Immunocal and Imuplus and now, quite a few others. These are still

> byproducts of cheesemaking, but they have not been subjected to

> additional high temperature processing, and efforts are made to

> remove the denatured proteins. These isolate products are

> called " undenatured, " which is really a misnomer, since a protein

> cannot be " undenatured " after it has been denatured, but what they

> mean is that the denatured proteins have been removed. These

> products are quite a bit better for building glutathione, I think

> because they have more of their cysteine in the form of cysteine,

> rather than oxidized to cystine, as is the case in the first

> category. The liver cells are much more able to import cysteine

> than cystine in a person who is glutathione-depleted. Cysteine is

> the rate-limiting amino acid for making glutathione, and the liver

> is normally the biggest glutathione producer in the body, so this is

> important.

>

> The third category includes the whey protein concentrates. As far

> as I know, the only ones in this category that are sold

> commmercially are ImmunoPro Rx and RenewPro, both products of Well

> Wisdom. These are not byproducts of cheesemaking. The starting

> material for these products is raw cow's milk. The processing

> temperatures are kept low, and there is no acid treatment. These

> products include the peptides, immunoglobulins and lactoferrin that

> are found in the original milk, as well as the other whey proteins

> that are temperature sensitive. Though I do not have quantitative

> numbers, I believe that more of the cysteine in these products is

> present as actual unoxidized cysteine that in those of the second

> category.

>

> I think that the observed higher " potency " reported by PWCs for

> ImmunoPro Rx compared to the whey protein isolates results from some

> combination of the peptides, the immunoglobulins, the lactoferrin,

> and the higher content of actual cysteine found in ImmunoPro Rx, and

> now also RenewPro. Note that RenewPro is not exactly the same as

> ImmunoPro Rx, but it is very similar in these respects. Note also

> that some of the isolate products in the second category have

> lactoferrin added back in from a separate process that does not

> destroy the lactoferrin. Lactoferrin is important for killing

> yeasts and undesirable bacteria in the gut, and for helping to

> absorb iron.

>

> I hope this addresses your questions.

>

> Rich

[Guest guest]

Adrienne,

As Dr. Phil would say, " So, how's that workin' for ya? "

If part of this product has been hydrolyzed, I don't think it would

be accurate to call it " undenatured, " even though that in itself is

a misnomer. Any protein that has been hydrolyzed is no longer in

its native state, and is thus very much denatured.

That's not to say that it might not be a helpful product. If there

is very much easily assimilated glutamic acid in it, though, this

might be an issue for people who have an MSG sensitivity.

Rich

> Rich;

>

> The product I am using, Dream Protein,, contains a blend of three

forms;

> isolate, concentrate, and " hydrolyzed. " I am not sure, but I

believe the

> hydrolyzed started as isolate.

>

> On the phone they said the product was " 100% " undenatured. Maybe

in the

> sense you explained?

>

> Here is a bit I learned about the hydrolyzed whey while

searching/surfing:

> 'Hydrolyzed Peptides are abundant in L-Glutamine, L-Glutamic Acid,

and

> naturally occurring L-Tryptophan.' (IS THE GLUTAMIC ACID SOMETHING

TO BE

> AVOIDED?)oops.

>

> Hydrolized means the long aminos are broken down into shorter

peptides; ie

> partially predigested. More easily assimilated.

> I have read that the point of combining them is each is differently

> valuable.

>

> adrienne

[Guest guest]

Adrienne-could you tell me the name of the whey and how to get it?

I assume it has to be ordered online. Thanks,

Mike C

> > It's workin', it's workin'. It is the most distinctively helpful

> of all the wheys I have tried, which is most but not all mentioned

> here and then some.

> > I had my doubts about the factuality of their claim of 100%

> denatured. I don't think the description on the container is that

> precise. But so long as it works. I will warn the doc who

> recommended it though.

> > Thanks,

> > Adrienne

]

[Guest guest]

Hi Mike

Here's an info link

http://wellnesswatchers.com/member_back.php?name=product_protein

a google search revealed this (and more, which I didn't go through)

http://www.qfac.com/supps/dream_protein.html

I would compare the price to RenewPro & ImmunoPro Rx

hth

Lance

> > > It's workin', it's workin'. It is the most distinctively helpful

> > of all the wheys I have tried, which is most but not all mentioned

> > here and then some.

> > > I had my doubts about the factuality of their claim of 100%

> > denatured. I don't think the description on the container is that

> > precise. But so long as it works. I will warn the doc who

> > recommended it though.

> > > Thanks,

> > > Adrienne

> ]

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have been using Optimum Nutrition`s 100% Whey Protein for over a

year now. Have had good results with it (it clearly improved my immune

system, as my blood results showed). This supplement is not that

expensive. You can order it from various websites.

Katrien

> > > > It's workin', it's workin'. It is the most distinctively helpful

> > > of all the wheys I have tried, which is most but not all mentioned

> > > here and then some.

> > > > I had my doubts about the factuality of their claim of 100%

> > > denatured. I don't think the description on the container is that

> > > precise. But so long as it works. I will warn the doc who

> > > recommended it though.

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Adrienne

> > ]