Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 I use NT factor in their Propax product. I believe there is more of it for the buck in that one, if I have done the math correctly. I am very erratic in its use, as I am with a lot of my protocol, but I can really tell the difference if I don't use it at all. It gives me more energy for sure. I never use the max dose as it makes me nervous or hyper. I am just coming out of a crash caused by bronchitis, and it was the least worst crash I have ever had, (although I was very scared at first). It is the first crash I have had since I began b12 shots a couple of years ago. I think the b12 was, although indirectly I suppose, the critical factor. My brain kept working well enough for me to adopt a rational course of action; ie do everything I could to boost my immunity. So I got more regular w. my whey, took some kind of mushrooms, bunches of C-BIG bunches- more zinc, osha root (Porter's Lovage), extract. I continued w. the Propax, didn't think of increasing dosage. I am not quite where I was before, but I am exceedingly pleased at the rate of recovery this time. Oh yeah; lots of prayer was involved, too. Folks pray for me. Recovery from " crashes " Hi, all. I'm reposting a couple of messages I posted on the Research list, in case people hear might be interested in this topic: Doris is correct in saying that I think that glutathione depletion is at the root of the crashing phenomenon in CFS. In addition to taking things to build glutathione, such as undenatured or nondenatured whey protein products, it might also help to take a heavy dose of several antioxidants to try to quench the reactive oxygen species that I believe form in the muscle cells when glutathione goes down. Things like the OPCs (oligomeric proanthocyanadins, such as in Pycnogenol or grape seed extract), vitamin C (say, 2,000 mg) and vitamin E (say, 800 I.U.) might help to shorten the crashes. There are other antioxidants one could try as well, such as alpha lipoic acid (say, 100 mg) and coenzyme Q- 10 (say, 100 mg). I'm just suggesting approximate dosages. It's important to make sure your other nutrients are up sufficiently as well, and I suggest a heaping teaspoon of Sparx to supply them (http://www.krysalis-sparx.com). Rich After sending the previous message, I have been thinking about the crash phenomenon some more. As I've said, I think it results from glutathione depletion, which allows the rise of reactive oxygen species. I think this has two effects in the muscle cells. The first is to raise peroxynitrite, which puts a partial blockade into the Krebs cycle at aconitase, and perhaps also into the respiratory chain at cytochrome oxidase. These partial blockades are responsible for the physical fatigue, in my opinion. The second effect is that the reactive oxygen species attack molecules in the cells, such as fatty acids in the mitochondrial mebranes, proteins and DNA. These then need to be repaired, and I suspect that the long duration of the crash is involved with how long it takes to do the repairs. So, though building glutathione and adding antioxidants and other essential nutrients such as the vitamins and minerals in Sparx are important, I think that more is also needed to help repair the damage that has already occurred. I think a diet high in protein (the whey protein will help with this) and supplementary unsaturated fatty acids, perhaps in the form of phospholipids, should help in the repairs. For the latter, I am interested in the product called NT Factor, since I think it may help to rebuild the damaged mitochondria membranes faster. The treatment that Kane and colleagues have developed, which includes intravenous phospolipid pushes, would be another possibility, though a person in a crash might not have the energy needed to go to the doctor for an I.V., so the oral NT Factor or something similar that can supply phospholipids quickly might be a better solution in a crash. I note that NT Factor is sold by http://www.immunesupport.com as part of their product called Mitochondria Ignite. I wonder if anyone has tried that product during a crash. Rich This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Rich. FYI, I crash every time I ea refined sugar. Since I have lost ~35 pounds, several years ago I would eat anything, hoping to regain the weight/energy that I lost. I would gain some weight and then crash again. So I have reduced refined sugar to minimum and have had all my business suits altered-some I had taken in 2 inches at the waist. I am just dealing with the oversized jackets until I replace my old suits. BTW, the crashes several years ago were real bad-suicidal thought bad, seriously. Mike C. Hope this helps w/ your data collection > Hi, all. > > I'm reposting a couple of messages I posted on the Research list, in > case people hear might be interested in this topic: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Second time in the last few days my post did not get thru- so I am resending this: ----------------------------------------------------------- I use NT factor in their Propax product. I believe there is more of it for the buck in that one, if I have done the math correctly. I am very erratic in its use, as I am with a lot of my protocol, but I can really tell the difference if I don't use it at all. It gives me more energy for sure. I never use the max dose as it makes me nervous or hyper. I am just coming out of a crash caused by bronchitis, and it was the least worst crash I have ever had, (although I was very scared at first). It is the first crash I have had since I began b12 shots a couple of years ago. I think the b12 was, although indirectly I suppose, the critical factor. My brain kept working well enough for me to adopt a rational course of action; ie do everything I could to boost my immunity. So I got more regular w. my whey, took some kind of mushrooms, bunches of C-BIG bunches- more zinc, osha root (Porter's Lovage), extract. I continued w. the Propax, didn't think of increasing dosage. I am not quite where I was before, but I am exceedingly pleased at the rate of recovery this time. Oh yeah; lots of prayer was involved, too. Folks pray for me. Recovery from " crashes " Hi, all. I'm reposting a couple of messages I posted on the Research list, in case people hear might be interested in this topic: Doris is correct in saying that I think that glutathione depletion is at the root of the crashing phenomenon in CFS. In addition to taking things to build glutathione, such as undenatured or nondenatured whey protein products, it might also help to take a heavy dose of several antioxidants to try to quench the reactive oxygen species that I believe form in the muscle cells when glutathione goes down. Things like the OPCs (oligomeric proanthocyanadins, such as in Pycnogenol or grape seed extract), vitamin C (say, 2,000 mg) and vitamin E (say, 800 I.U.) might help to shorten the crashes. There are other antioxidants one could try as well, such as alpha lipoic acid (say, 100 mg) and coenzyme Q- 10 (say, 100 mg). I'm just suggesting approximate dosages. It's important to make sure your other nutrients are up sufficiently as well, and I suggest a heaping teaspoon of Sparx to supply them (http://www.krysalis-sparx.com). Rich After sending the previous message, I have been thinking about the crash phenomenon some more. As I've said, I think it results from glutathione depletion, which allows the rise of reactive oxygen species. I think this has two effects in the muscle cells. The first is to raise peroxynitrite, which puts a partial blockade into the Krebs cycle at aconitase, and perhaps also into the respiratory chain at cytochrome oxidase. These partial blockades are responsible for the physical fatigue, in my opinion. The second effect is that the reactive oxygen species attack molecules in the cells, such as fatty acids in the mitochondrial mebranes, proteins and DNA. These then need to be repaired, and I suspect that the long duration of the crash is involved with how long it takes to do the repairs. So, though building glutathione and adding antioxidants and other essential nutrients such as the vitamins and minerals in Sparx are important, I think that more is also needed to help repair the damage that has already occurred. I think a diet high in protein (the whey protein will help with this) and supplementary unsaturated fatty acids, perhaps in the form of phospholipids, should help in the repairs. For the latter, I am interested in the product called NT Factor, since I think it may help to rebuild the damaged mitochondria membranes faster. The treatment that Kane and colleagues have developed, which includes intravenous phospolipid pushes, would be another possibility, though a person in a crash might not have the energy needed to go to the doctor for an I.V., so the oral NT Factor or something similar that can supply phospholipids quickly might be a better solution in a crash. I note that NT Factor is sold by http://www.immunesupport.com as part of their product called Mitochondria Ignite. I wonder if anyone has tried that product during a crash. Rich This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Hi. What is NT and where do you get it. Also, it might be helpful if you describe what happens (symptoms) when you crash- headaches, inability to get out of bed, etc. Thanks, Mike C > I use NT factor in their Propax product. I believe there is more of it for the buck in that one, if I have done the math correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 > There are other antioxidants one could > try as well, such as alpha lipoic acid (say, 100 mg) and coenzyme Q- > 10 (say, 100 mg). I'm just suggesting approximate dosages. > > Rich Hi Rich, I have also been using Solgar SOD for years, it helps with burning legs and is not so expensive, compared to other antioxydants. Sylvie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 Sorry; Bill's post was earlier today, the 20th. Re: Recovery from " crashes " Hi. What is NT and where do you get it. Also, it might be helpful if you describe what happens (symptoms) when you crash- headaches, inability to get out of bed, etc. Thanks, Mike C > I use NT factor in their Propax product. I believe there is more of it for the buck in that one, if I have done the math correctly. This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Hi, Mike. Thanks for the information. It sounds as though you are part of that somewhat exclusive group known as the " skinny PWCs. " As you may know, most PWCs gain weight and have difficulty getting rid of it, while a smaller subset lose weight and have difficulty getting it back. I don't understand what goes on in the skinny PWC. Apparently there is a problem with malabsorption or inability to metabolize carbohydrates. The fact that sugar produced crashes in you suggests that you did absorb it, because if you didn't, I think it would only produce intestinal problems, such as feeding yeasts or bacteria in your gut and producing bloating and gas. It sounds as though your intestine absorbed the sugar alright, but that the problem was involved with metabolizing it properly. Have you had your fasting glucose and insulin measured? I don't suppose you would be very enthusiastic about taking a 5-hour glucose tolerance test, and I wouldn't blame you if you weren't, but maybe even a modified version that used less glucose might reveal something. Another test that might give you a clue about what's going on would be the urine organic acids test, I think (http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com). A measurement of lactic acid in your blood after eating carbohydrates might also give a clue about what's going on. Rich > > Hi, all. > > > > I'm reposting a couple of messages I posted on the Research list, in > > case people hear might be interested in this topic: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Hi, Adrienne. Thanks for the information. I'm glad you had a fast recovery on the last crash. (I'm a big believer in prayer, too. When I had rectal cancer over 6 years ago, I was told that there were even people in Peru praying for me, and I don't know anyone in Peru!) I just compared the Propax and the Mitochondrial Ignite, and it looks to me as though for the same cost the Mitochondrial Ignite gives more NT Factor. But the Propax also has a multivitamin formula, while the Mitochondrial Ignite has other ingredients, so it's difficult to compare them for total value. Since the Mitochondrial Ignite was the one tested by Garth Nicolson and coworkers, and they found good results with it, I think I would still suggest that one. Rich > I use NT factor in their Propax product. I believe there is more of it for the buck in that one, if I have done the math correctly. > > I am very erratic in its use, as I am with a lot of my protocol, but I can really tell the difference if I don't use it at all. It gives me more energy for sure. I never use the max dose as it makes me nervous or hyper. > I am just coming out of a crash caused by bronchitis, and it was the least worst crash I have ever had, (although I was very scared at first). > It is the first crash I have had since I began b12 shots a couple of years ago. > I think the b12 was, although indirectly I suppose, the critical factor. My brain kept working well enough for me to adopt a rational course of action; ie do everything I could to boost my immunity. > So I got more regular w. my whey, took some kind of mushrooms, bunches of C-BIG bunches- more zinc, osha root (Porter's Lovage), extract. I continued w. the Propax, didn't think of increasing dosage. > I am not quite where I was before, but I am exceedingly pleased at the rate of recovery this time. > Oh yeah; lots of prayer was involved, too. Folks pray for me. > Recovery from " crashes " > > > Hi, all. > > I'm reposting a couple of messages I posted on the Research list, in > case people hear might be interested in this topic: > > Doris is correct in saying that I think that glutathione depletion > is at the root of the crashing phenomenon in CFS. In addition to > taking things to build glutathione, such as undenatured or > nondenatured whey protein products, it might also help to take a > heavy dose of several antioxidants to try to quench the reactive > oxygen species that I believe form in the muscle cells when > glutathione goes down. Things like the OPCs (oligomeric > proanthocyanadins, such as in Pycnogenol or grape seed extract), > vitamin C (say, 2,000 mg) and vitamin E (say, 800 I.U.) might help > to shorten the crashes. There are other antioxidants one could > try as well, such as alpha lipoic acid (say, 100 mg) and coenzyme Q- > 10 (say, 100 mg). I'm just suggesting approximate dosages. It's > important to make sure your other nutrients are up sufficiently as > well, and I suggest a heaping teaspoon of Sparx to supply them > (http://www.krysalis-sparx.com). > > Rich > > After sending the previous message, I have been thinking about the > crash phenomenon some more. As I've said, I think it results from > glutathione depletion, which allows the rise of reactive oxygen > species. I think this has two effects in the muscle cells. The > first is to raise peroxynitrite, which puts a partial blockade into > the Krebs cycle at aconitase, and perhaps also into the respiratory > chain at cytochrome oxidase. These partial blockades are > responsible for the physical fatigue, in my opinion. > > The second effect is that the reactive oxygen species attack > molecules in the cells, such as fatty acids in the mitochondrial > mebranes, proteins and DNA. These then need to be repaired, and I > suspect that the long duration of the crash is involved with how > long it takes to do the repairs. > > So, though building glutathione and adding antioxidants and other > essential nutrients such as the vitamins and minerals in Sparx are > important, I think that more is also needed to help repair the > damage that has already occurred. I think a diet high in protein > (the whey protein will help with this) and supplementary unsaturated > fatty acids, perhaps in the form of phospholipids, should help in > the repairs. For the latter, I am interested in the product called > NT Factor, since I think it may help to rebuild the damaged > mitochondria membranes faster. The treatment that Kane and > colleagues have developed, which includes intravenous phospolipid > pushes, would be another possibility, though a person in a crash > might not have the energy needed to go to the doctor for an I.V., so > the oral NT Factor or something similar that can supply > phospholipids quickly might be a better solution in a crash. I note > that NT Factor is sold by http://www.immunesupport.com as part of > their product called Mitochondria Ignite. I wonder if anyone has > tried that product during a crash. > > Rich > > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Hi, Sylvie. Thanks for the information. This one is a puzzle to me. Superoxide dismutase is a large molecule. I don't think it can be absorbed intact by the gut. So how does it help? Could it be the mineral content? What do you think about this? Rich > > There are other antioxidants one could > > try as well, such as alpha lipoic acid (say, 100 mg) and coenzyme Q- > > 10 (say, 100 mg). I'm just suggesting approximate dosages. > > > > Rich > > Hi Rich, > > I have also been using Solgar SOD for years, it helps with burning legs and > is not so expensive, compared to other antioxydants. > > Sylvie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2005 Report Share Posted June 22, 2005 Rich-I think it is a lack of motility that is causing my weight loss. It is as if the muscles that propel solid food through my intestines aren't working in the same way that the rest of my muscles have shrunk. That is my opinion only, could be something else. Mike C. In , " rvankonynen " <richvank@a...> wrote: > Hi, Mike. > > Thanks for the information. It sounds as though you are part of > that somewhat exclusive group known as the " skinny PWCs. " As you > may know, most PWCs gain weight and have difficulty getting rid of > it, while a smaller subset lose weight and have difficulty getting > it back. > > I don't understand what goes on in the skinny PWC. Apparently there > is a problem with malabsorption or inability to metabolize > carbohydrates. The fact that sugar produced crashes in you suggests > that you did absorb it, because if you didn't, I think it would only Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 Resending this: it got returned to me the first time. Re: Recovery from " crashes " Rich-I think it is a lack of motility that is causing my weight loss. It is as if the muscles that propel solid food through my intestines aren't working in the same way that the rest of my muscles have shrunk. That is my opinion only, could be something else. Mike C. In , " rvankonynen " <richvank@a...> wrote: > Hi, Mike. > > Thanks for the information. It sounds as though you are part of > that somewhat exclusive group known as the " skinny PWCs. " As you > may know, most PWCs gain weight and have difficulty getting rid of > it, while a smaller subset lose weight and have difficulty getting > it back. > > I don't understand what goes on in the skinny PWC. Apparently there > is a problem with malabsorption or inability to metabolize > carbohydrates. The fact that sugar produced crashes in you suggests > that you did absorb it, because if you didn't, I think it would only This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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