Guest guest Posted June 16, 2005 Report Share Posted June 16, 2005 hi a, did you also know about Judit Miklossys earlier work on alz, where she found high numbers of spirochetes in brain, csf, and blood? It is very striking. It was disconfirmed by various followups - personally I discount those using PCR and serology only. That leaves just MacLaughlins investigation. I strongly suspect he is an earnest and alert worker. He found no spirochetes save in one subject. I think certain differences in the sample handling could possibly account for some of the different results, but I dont have ideas for certain other of the results. Eg, Miklossy used autopsy blood, whereas MacLaughlin used live blood. This could conceivably have an effect on conversion of L-forms to classical forms. Yet, MacLaughlin did use two autopsy cerebra, and seems to have handled them much as Miklossy handled her autopsy cerebra, yet with no spirochetes found. That descrepancy I have no ideas about. > > Good God, guys: did you see this from co-cure?? > > > > Our brains are shrinking. That fits exactly with how I experience > my mental state, I am afraid. Along with the increasing disability > over the years, my brain has been changing, too. Not the fog of > earlier years, and not memory either. > > Well, maybe a little fog of a sort when I am tired. > > I take b12 shots and it has really helped with those two symptoms. > My memory is mostly adequate for my daily needs, but there is > something else going on that I don't quite know how to characterize. > > I think slower? I can handle less complexity? I just don't think as > much? > > My first thought was that it is due to lack of circulation. And > also due to the sensory deprivation of staying home and doing so much > nothing-which might also lead to less circulation.. I feel much more > dependent on being stimulated by others than ever in my life. When I > am alone, I kind of go on standby? Sigh. > > Adrienne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2005 Report Share Posted June 17, 2005 , having had the privilege to hear Lida Mattman speak in chicago, I would suggest that many people don't know how to find spirochetes. She was quite sarcastic about how she told scientists how to fail - what not to do. I also agree that PCR would not be the most reliable way to detect spirochetes. a > > > Good God, guys: did you see this from co-cure?? > > > > > > Our brains are shrinking. That fits exactly with how I experience > > my mental state, I am afraid. Along with the increasing disability > > over the years, my brain has been changing, too. Not the fog of > > earlier years, and not memory either. > > > Well, maybe a little fog of a sort when I am tired. > > > I take b12 shots and it has really helped with those two > symptoms. > > My memory is mostly adequate for my daily needs, but there is > > something else going on that I don't quite know how to characterize. > > > I think slower? I can handle less complexity? I just don't think > as > > much? > > > My first thought was that it is due to lack of circulation. And > > also due to the sensory deprivation of staying home and doing so > much > > nothing-which might also lead to less circulation.. I feel much > more > > dependent on being stimulated by others than ever in my life. When > I > > am alone, I kind of go on standby? Sigh. > > > Adrienne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2005 Report Share Posted June 17, 2005 I saw that talk recently. I was surprised that she has extended spirochetal explorations to Parkinson's disease. It seems like borrelial spirochetes should be easy to visualize in situ in blood and CSF using fluorescent antibody (no real reason to culture them). Its very simple, just like the Bowen test. So I am rather confused as to why it has been so difficult to establish the spirochetal nature of all these diseases (assuming for the moment that spirochetosis does cause them). After all, fluorescent Ab has been around for decades and I believe Mattman has been working with it for many years. > , having had the privilege to hear Lida Mattman speak in chicago, > I would suggest that many people don't know how to find spirochetes. > She was quite sarcastic about how she told scientists how to fail - > what not to do. > > I also agree that PCR would not be the most reliable way to detect > spirochetes. > > a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 , could it be that just seeing them doesn't tell you what they are? My dentist does a photo of bacteria in saliva. I had spirochetes in mine, but the dentist had no idea what kind. My understanding, limited, is that culturing is the gold standard of determining if bacteria are actually present. Of course we know culturing borrelia or mycoplasma is very difficult. The interesting point Mattman makes is that culturing is easy if you know how to do it. My diagnosis would be there is too much arrogance and unwillingness to learn humbly from each other among the scientists. How many times have I seen that. I will not name names, but there are several on my short list. a Carnes > > , having had the privilege to hear Lida Mattman speak in chicago, > > I would suggest that many people don't know how to find spirochetes. > > She was quite sarcastic about how she told scientists how to fail - > > what not to do. > > > > I also agree that PCR would not be the most reliable way to detect > > spirochetes. > > > > a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2005 Report Share Posted June 18, 2005 Many commensal spirochetes live in the mouth, including some Treponema (harmless sisters of Treponema pallidum, syphilis). However, to see any spirochete in the blood or tissues would be a red alert. In fact, these areas are still generally thought to be completely sterile of bacteria in health, but that is just wrong, as MacLaughlin himself demonstrated. Re scientists missing things because of arrogance, I definitely think it is a huge problem. But MacLaughlin, who disconfimed Miklossy, and Sheldon Brown, who disconfirmed Mattmans finding of a TB-like mycobacterium in sarc, have struck me as earnest workers, and I think Brown said some of his group actually trained at Mattmans lab. So I think they tried pretty hard. Brown said it was a big bummer that it didnt pan out for his group. I wish groups getting varying results would get together to redo the work, together. In fact, it should be an instantaneous reflex. It would be so great, it would be worth any inconveniences involved. Instead we have these things languishing in uncertainty. " pjeanneus " <pj7@c...> wrote: > , could it be that just seeing them doesn't tell you what they > are? My dentist does a photo of bacteria in saliva. I had spirochetes > in mine, but the dentist had no idea what kind. > > My understanding, limited, is that culturing is the gold standard of > determining if bacteria are actually present. Of course we know > culturing borrelia or mycoplasma is very difficult. The interesting > point Mattman makes is that culturing is easy if you know how to do > it. My diagnosis would be there is too much arrogance and > unwillingness to learn humbly from each other among the scientists. > How many times have I seen that. I will not name names, but there are > several on my short list. > > a Carnes > > > > > , having had the privilege to hear Lida Mattman speak in > chicago, > > > I would suggest that many people don't know how to find > spirochetes. > > > She was quite sarcastic about how she told scientists how to > fail - > > > what not to do. > > > > > > I also agree that PCR would not be the most reliable way to > detect > > > spirochetes. > > > > > > a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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