Re: Brain shrinkage

[Guest guest]

Adrienne,

I can really relate to your report of a different thinking decline (not earlier

fog-type etc). My doc once said he's look into a " trance " state, cause that's

what I said it feels like. (Did not hear back from him on this).

Actually, if I am not needing or forcing thoughts, I could be pretty peaceful

just blissing out, staring at beautiful trees for instance. However, I have to

think to survive or interact, which is getting increasingly difficult. Unlike

you, I do also have memory deficit, like from one second to the next, if I don't

force myself to focus and remind.

About the lack of stimulation as possibility...I recall from a friend's articles

on brain damage, (she had organic brain damage) and I think stroke,too. there is

something called " outside cues " that are needed for mental functioning.

I struggle with this dilemna...trancing out without outside cues, but easily

distracted by people or anything, as in forgetting I'm supposed to be somewhere.

This reminds me of the extreme pros and cons of being alone or in

partnership/with family. Without others as part of daily life, there are not the

outside cues, but with others around, distraction,draining and witnesses to this

whole debacle.

Katrina

> Good God, guys: did you see this from co-cure??

>

> Our brains are shrinking. That fits exactly with how I experience my mental

state, I am afraid. Along with the increasing disability over the years, my

brain has been changing, too. Not the fog of earlier years, and not memory

either.

> Well, maybe a little fog of a sort when I am tired.

> I take b12 shots and it has really helped with those two symptoms. My memory

is mostly adequate for my daily needs, but there is something else going on that

I don't quite know how to characterize.

> I think slower? I can handle less complexity? I just don't think as much?

> My first thought was that it is due to lack of circulation. And also due to

the sensory deprivation of staying home and doing so much nothing-which might

also lead to less circulation.. I feel much more dependent on being stimulated

by others than ever in my life. When I am alone, I kind of go on standby? Sigh.

> Adrienne

>

>

> Floris P. de Langea, Joke S. Kalkmanb, Gijs Bleijenbergb, Hagoorta,

> Jos W.M. van der Meerc and Ivan Toni

> " Gray matter volume reduction in the chronic fatigue syndrome "

> NeuroImage, Volume 26, Issue 3 , 1 July 2005, Pages 777-781

> doi:10.1016/j.neuroimage.2005.02.037

>

> -------

> Abstract

> " The chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is a disabling disorder of unknown

> etiology. The symptomatology of CFS (central fatigue, impaired

> concentration, attention and memory) suggests that this disorder could be

> related to alterations at the level of the central nervous system. In this

> study, we have used an automated and unbiased morphometric technique to test

> whether CFS patients display structural cerebral abnormalities.

>

> " We mapped structural cerebral morphology and volume in two cohorts of CFS

> patients (in total 28 patients) and healthy controls (in total 28 controls)

> from high-resolution structural magnetic resonance images, using voxel-based

> morphometry. Additionally, we recorded physical activity levels to explore

> the relation between severity of CFS symptoms and cerebral abnormalities.

>

> " We observed significant reductions in global gray matter volume in both

> cohorts of CFS patients, as compared to matched control participants.

> Moreover, the decline in gray matter volume was linked to the reduction in

> physical activity, a core aspect of CFS.

>

> " These findings suggest that the central nervous system plays a key role in

> the pathophysiology of CFS and point to a new objective and quantitative

> tool for clinical diagnosis of this disabling disorder. "

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Adrienne and all,

Hopefully all of us CFIDSers have realized that the chance we have

serious chronic infections including but not limited to borrelia is

highly likely. Hopefuly we have all been tested at IgeneX or Bowen.

Certainly borrelia, a spirochete, infects the CNS and brain. Here is

a study suggesting that borrelia may be the cause of Alzheimers.

a Carnes

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15894409 & query_hl=1

Neurobiol Aging. 2005 May 12; [Epub ahead of print]

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

db=pubmed & amp;cmd=Display & amp;dopt=pubmed_pubmed & amp;from_uid=15894409

& amp;tool=ExternalSearch>

<javascript:PopUpMenu2_Set(Menu15894409);>

Beta-amyloid deposition and Alzheimer's type changes induced by

Borrelia spirochetes.

Miklossy J, Kis A, Radenovic A, L, Forro L, s R, Reiss

K, Darbinian N, Darekar P, Mihaly L, Khalili K.

Kinsmen Laboratory of Neurological Research, University of British

Columbia, 2255 Wesbrook Mall, Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Z3;

University Institute of Pathology, Division of Neuropathology,

University Medical School (CHUV), 1011 Lausanne, Switzerland.

The pathological hallmarks of Alzheimer's disease (AD) consist of

beta-amyloid plaques and neurofibrillary tangles in affected brain

areas. The processes, which drive this host reaction are unknown. To

determine whether an analogous host reaction to that occurring in AD

could be induced by infectious agents, we exposed mammalian glial and

neuronal cells in vitro to Borrelia burgdorferi spirochetes and to

the inflammatory bacterial lipopolysaccharide (LPS). Morphological

changes analogous to the amyloid deposits of AD brain were observed

following 2-8 weeks of exposure to the spirochetes. Increased levels

of beta-amyloid presursor protein (AbetaPP) and hyperphosphorylated

tau were also detected by Western blots of extracts of cultured cells

that had been treated with spirochetes or LPS. These observations

indicate that, by exposure to bacteria or to their toxic products,

host responses similar in nature to those observed in AD may be

induced.

PMID: 15894409 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

> Good God, guys: did you see this from co-cure??

>

> Our brains are shrinking. That fits exactly with how I experience

my mental state, I am afraid. Along with the increasing disability

over the years, my brain has been changing, too. Not the fog of

earlier years, and not memory either.

> Well, maybe a little fog of a sort when I am tired.

> I take b12 shots and it has really helped with those two symptoms.

My memory is mostly adequate for my daily needs, but there is

something else going on that I don't quite know how to characterize.

> I think slower? I can handle less complexity? I just don't think as

much?

> My first thought was that it is due to lack of circulation. And

also due to the sensory deprivation of staying home and doing so much

nothing-which might also lead to less circulation.. I feel much more

dependent on being stimulated by others than ever in my life. When I

am alone, I kind of go on standby? Sigh.

> Adrienne

[Guest guest]

The other explanation for any organ shrinkage, is reduced blood flow

delivery to the organ, for example caused by hypercoagulation and

thrombrosis.

That is an actionable item.

The report seems to say

> that the shrinkage happens due to inactivity (caused by illness). I

would

> like to think that if inactivity caused it, then maybe activity would

> reverse it.

[Guest guest]

> What if the brains are just shrunk because we have low blood

volume? Might mean nothing.

>

Good to see some logical thinking.

I don't see why a reduction of gray matter should be any surprise.

The brain basically is made of fats and water, about 3/4 of it being

water.

In a chronic dehydrated condition, which I would think that a person

with low blood volume could be categorized, water content of the

brain is more than likely going to be diminished too. The end

result would be less gray matter.

Reduced gray matter is not unique to people with CFS. People with

alzheimers disease have been found to have less gray matter. People

with anorexia have less grey matter. People with diabetes have less

gray matter.

As a person ages, gray matter tends to reduce (though it does not

have to). Do some googling and I'm sure that a number of other

groups could be put in the reduced GM category. (GM: gray matter,

not Genetically Modified, not General Motors, Not General Mills...)

Just being in chronic pain can cause a reduction in gray matter.

http://www.upliftprogram.com/h_mindbody.html#h42

Chronic back pain can result in as much as an 11% decrease in

gray-matter. In chronic back pain the finding is 5 - 11% reduction

in back pain. The average is very much like the 8% reduction in

gray matter found in people w/ CFS reported by these researchers.

I don't agree that this can be a viable diagnostic marker for

CFS-FMS since decreased gray matter can apply to so many different

groups. Making it a marker would just provide another test to put

the person through.

Maybe they're running out of tests and have found yet another

uniqueness " so they say " that they can run new tests on. What's the

price for an MRI these days?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/

query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15461817

this study shows decreased gray-matter in a specific part of the

brain. That, could be more a diagnostic marker than generalized

reduction in gray matter.

When it comes to gray matter, like most everything else, it's a use

it or lose it condition. People that are bilingual tend to have

more grey matter. Someone that vegetates in front of the TV is

going to have less grey matter (I'm not making accusations, just

stating a fact that applies to all.). What is interesting is that

when watching TV the bodies metabolism is even lower than if a

person is just sitting, not watching TV. Probably because brain

activity is higher when not in front of the boob tube. This is

probably not true for all TV viewing, just the mind-numbing bulk of

material presented on TV.

Thinking is exhausting. With CFS/FMS fatigue is a big factor and

there may be a tendency to avoid taxing the brain.

As I see it, if a person can keep hydrated, nourished, and exercises

their brain, they should be able to counter much of the natural

tendency of reduction of grey matter from aging. Of course the

trick with CFS/FMS is finding and reversing the blocks to

metabolism, which alse impedes the body from being hydrated and

nourished. Now, there is something to think about, google, and

ponder. Don't worry that grey matter is less, that may only

increase cortisol levels, which can cause gray matter to shrink.

Want to increase your gray matter? Learn a second language. If

your're already bilingual, go for a third. Never stop learning.

I've heard that it is estimated that we use less then 5% of our

brains capacity. So if you've lost 8% of you're brain, The way I

see it is you've still got an 88% buffer. Count your blessings.

All the best,

Jim

[Guest guest]

I found the following link, another study about a part of grey matter.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2377-4-14.pdf

I agree with Jim. I can well imagin that grey matter has something to

do with fatigue, but this study found a reduction of 11% only, what is

significant, but you cannot say that one is unable to work because of

that. (I did not google deeper into that issue, but grey matter seems

to be something that is very variable).

Actually my brain does not feel like an 11% reduction, rather like at

least an 90% reduction ;-)

Best wishes

[Guest guest]

I am sending this a second time, because my first attempt has disappeared:

Adrienne

Re: Brain shrinkage

> What if the brains are just shrunk because we have low blood

volume? Might mean nothing.

>

Good to see some logical thinking.

I don't see why a reduction of gray matter should be any surprise.

The brain basically is made of fats and water, about 3/4 of it being

water.

In a chronic dehydrated condition, which I would think that a person

with low blood volume could be categorized, water content of the

brain is more than likely going to be diminished too. The end

result would be less gray matter.

Reduced gray matter is not unique to people with CFS. People with

alzheimers disease have been found to have less gray matter. People

with anorexia have less grey matter. People with diabetes have less

gray matter.

As a person ages, gray matter tends to reduce (though it does not

have to). Do some googling and I'm sure that a number of other

groups could be put in the reduced GM category. (GM: gray matter,

not Genetically Modified, not General Motors, Not General Mills...)

Just being in chronic pain can cause a reduction in gray matter.

http://www.upliftprogram.com/h_mindbody.html#h42

Chronic back pain can result in as much as an 11% decrease in

gray-matter. In chronic back pain the finding is 5 - 11% reduction

in back pain. The average is very much like the 8% reduction in

gray matter found in people w/ CFS reported by these researchers.

I don't agree that this can be a viable diagnostic marker for

CFS-FMS since decreased gray matter can apply to so many different

groups. Making it a marker would just provide another test to put

the person through.

Maybe they're running out of tests and have found yet another

uniqueness " so they say " that they can run new tests on. What's the

price for an MRI these days?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/

query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=15461817

this study shows decreased gray-matter in a specific part of the

brain. That, could be more a diagnostic marker than generalized

reduction in gray matter.

When it comes to gray matter, like most everything else, it's a use

it or lose it condition. People that are bilingual tend to have

more grey matter. Someone that vegetates in front of the TV is

going to have less grey matter (I'm not making accusations, just

stating a fact that applies to all.). What is interesting is that

when watching TV the bodies metabolism is even lower than if a

person is just sitting, not watching TV. Probably because brain

activity is higher when not in front of the boob tube. This is

probably not true for all TV viewing, just the mind-numbing bulk of

material presented on TV.

Thinking is exhausting. With CFS/FMS fatigue is a big factor and

there may be a tendency to avoid taxing the brain.

As I see it, if a person can keep hydrated, nourished, and exercises

their brain, they should be able to counter much of the natural

tendency of reduction of grey matter from aging. Of course the

trick with CFS/FMS is finding and reversing the blocks to

metabolism, which alse impedes the body from being hydrated and

nourished. Now, there is something to think about, google, and

ponder. Don't worry that grey matter is less, that may only

increase cortisol levels, which can cause gray matter to shrink.

Want to increase your gray matter? Learn a second language. If

your're already bilingual, go for a third. Never stop learning.

I've heard that it is estimated that we use less then 5% of our

brains capacity. So if you've lost 8% of you're brain, The way I

see it is you've still got an 88% buffer. Count your blessings.

All the best,

Jim

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Natasha and all,

The brain SPECT scan certainly means something. Dr. Byron Hyde uses the brain

SPECT scan to monitor the progress of the disease in Canada, and in his landmark

book, The Clinical & Scientific Basis for Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, he shows

the SPECT scan as being a definitive marker in the disease.

I was able to get my disability without any problems here in California with the

objective evidence of a very abnormal brain SPECT scan and a diagnosis of

Myalgic Encephalomyelitis.

Du Pre

Website: http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/soareagle/index.html

" By words the mind is winged. " Aristophanes

Re: Brain shrinkage

Hi Doris:

I'm just curious; do your drs believe in the SPECT scan-any of them? I ask

because in this state, non of the drs believe in the SPECT. they call it a scam.

my spec came out very abnormal but here it's of no use.

Natasha

[Guest guest]

Natasha & Group,

Below is a web site for Dr. Byron Hyde and below that is some useful information

regarding the brain injury in M. E. from his web site which would be very useful

for your Dr.

Du Pre

Website: http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/soareagle/index.html

" By words the mind is winged. " Aristophanes

http://www.nightingale.ca/nightb.html

The Nightingale Research Foundation

What is M.E./CFS?

Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (M.E./CFS ) is an endemic

disorder, associated with an initial viral infection, that occurs in both

epidemic and sporadic forms.

M.E./CFS is an acquired brain dysfunction and results in a rapid and persistent

exhaustion of both physical and cognitive abilities, an autonomic disregulation

and a reduction of more than 50% of the individual's previous ability to carry

out work, school or social activities. This Central Nervous System dysfunction

can be exacerbated by levels of physical, sensory, cognitive, or emotional

stress that would have been of no consequence in the same patient prior to the

infectious or traumatic injury.

This neuroimmunological injury can usually be identified by studying SPECT or

PET Scan Images of the patient's brain.

The following information is only a brief review of M.E./CFS originally compiled

as a physician's guide. Interested physicians and patients are encouraged to

order the comprehensive and authoritative text The Clinical and Scientific Basis

of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Patient's have found the

book an " easy-to-read and understand " source of information on the various

aspects of M.E./CFS.

A Myalgic Encephalomyelopathy

In its complete form, M.E./CFS can be characterized as a Myalgic

Encephalomyelopathy.

Myalgic incorporates fibromyalgia, migratory and post-exertion muscle pain and

spasm that is routinely observed in 70% of M.E./CFS patients.

Encephalopathy can be demonstrated by autopsy, SPECT, QEEG, and PET scan and

sometimes MRI.

Myelopathy refers to spinal cord pathology as first noted by U.S. neurologist,

Alberto Marinacci in California in the 1950's. Complaints of headaches,

causalgia, neck and spinal pain are common.

A description of M.E./CFS in Adults

Acute onset M.E./CFS consists of a short prodromal illness, often described as

starting with a " flu-like illness " , but in reality occuring after any of several

infectious insults, including encephalitis with severe headaches, an upper or

lower respiratory infection, gastroenteritis, conjuctivitis, or Borneholme's

disease with or without acute onset of peresis or pain syndromes. In children,

Hand, Foot and Mouth-like rash is common. This is followed by the primary acute

illness:

The following Dr. A.L. Wallis " 1955, Edinburgh Definition, with modifications by

Dr. Melvin Ramsay, represents an accurate, clinical description of a full-blown

case of M.E./CFS.

General Characteristics:

The systemic illness is accompanied by a relatively low fever or subnormal (and

highly variable) temperatures and " an alarming tendency to become chronic " .

There is a marked variability and fluctuation of both symptoms and physical

findings in the course of a day.

System Dysfunction:

There is a unique form of (marked) muscle, sensory and cognitive fatigability,

whereby, even after a minor degree of physical (sensory, cognitive or emotional)

effort, 3-5 days or longer elapse before adequate muscle (cognitive and

emotional) powers are restored.

There are CNS changes, impairment of memory, changes in mood, sleep disorders

and irritability or depression.

There may be significant involvement of the autonomic nervous system resulting

in orthostatic tachycardia and hypotension, coldness of the extremities,

episodes of sweating or profound pallor, sluggish pupils, bowel changes and

micturition, possibly as a result of a lesion of the hypothalamus.

There is diffuse and variable involvement of the central nervous system, leading

to ataxia, weakness and/or sensory changes in a limb, nerve root or peripheral

nerve.

Myalgias and Cephalgias:

There may be muscular pain, tenderness and myalgia in up to 70% of these

patients.

There are usually cephalgias, characterized in mild cases with retro-orbital and

occipital headaches in the early stages of the disease process. In severe cases,

the illness may debut with a severe incapacitating pancephalic pain that may

persist for months. In addition, cervical and upper thoracic vertebrae pain,

often with causalgia, is regularly encountered.

The Chronic Illness

If the illness persists for a period of more than one year, there is an alarming

tendency for the disease process to become chronic.

Chronic illness represents an extension of the features of the acute illness.

However, the symptoms tend to be less fulminant, less variable and compounded

frequently by a financial and social poverty that occur as a direct result of

the disabling features of the M.E./CFS illness.

Re: Brain shrinkage

Hi :

Thank you so very much for the info. Would you have Bryon Hyde's website?

I see my neurologist monday and I want to take more stuff in to him-

Blessings,

natasha

[Guest guest]

This does not mean that brains of CFS people are shrinking. The

reduction of grey matter IS NOT brain shrinkage and has been observed

in a number of other conditions in many of which is only transient and

short lived. It is quite dynamic and can change over time.

> Good God, guys: did you see this from co-cure??

>

> Our brains are shrinking. That fits exactly with how I experience my

mental state, I am afraid. Along with the increasing disability over

the years, my brain has been changing, too. Not the fog of earlier

years, and not memory either.

> Well, maybe a little fog of a sort when I am tired.

> I take b12 shots and it has really helped with those two symptoms.

My memory is mostly adequate for my daily needs, but there is

something else going on that I don't quite know how to characterize.

> I think slower? I can handle less complexity? I just don't think as

much?

> My first thought was that it is due to lack of circulation. And also

due to the sensory deprivation of staying home and doing so much

nothing-which might also lead to less circulation.. I feel much more

dependent on being stimulated by others than ever in my life. When I

am alone, I kind of go on standby? Sigh.

> Adrienne

>

>

> Floris P. de Langea, Joke S. Kalkmanb, Gijs Bleijenbergb,

Hagoorta,

> Jos W.M. van der Meerc and Ivan Toni

> " Gray matter volume reduction in the chronic fatigue syndrome "

> NeuroImage, Volume 26, Issue 3 , 1 July 2005, Pages 777-781

> doi:10.1016/j.neuroimage.2005.02.037

>

> -------

> Abstract

> " The chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) is a disabling disorder of unknown

> etiology. The symptomatology of CFS (central fatigue, impaired

> concentration, attention and memory) suggests that this disorder

could be

> related to alterations at the level of the central nervous system.

In this

> study, we have used an automated and unbiased morphometric technique

to test

> whether CFS patients display structural cerebral abnormalities.

>

> " We mapped structural cerebral morphology and volume in two cohorts

of CFS

> patients (in total 28 patients) and healthy controls (in total 28

controls)

> from high-resolution structural magnetic resonance images, using

voxel-based

> morphometry. Additionally, we recorded physical activity levels to

explore

> the relation between severity of CFS symptoms and cerebral

abnormalities.

>

> " We observed significant reductions in global gray matter volume in both

> cohorts of CFS patients, as compared to matched control participants.

> Moreover, the decline in gray matter volume was linked to the

reduction in

> physical activity, a core aspect of CFS.

>

> " These findings suggest that the central nervous system plays a key

role in

> the pathophysiology of CFS and point to a new objective and quantitative

> tool for clinical diagnosis of this disabling disorder. "

>

>

>