Re: Cheney, Heart Disease, CFIDS and...ARGININE?

[Guest guest]

I know what you mean about the increased NO helping to fight infection. I think

Cheney believes an unfortunate consequence of this NO is ultimately

peroxynitrite production and damage to the mitochondria in the heart cells. So

while NO is attempting to fight the infection that is infecting the cells it is

also damaging them! You just cant win for losing. Of course the immune system

can do a tremendous amount of damage if it is upregulated or misdirected for a

period of time.

Cheney's theories - and most CFS theories - are logical but based on little

evidence - no one has examined heart cell mitochondria that I know of., Dr.

Lerner has some, but not alot of evidence of heart infection, no one knows about

heavy metal contamination of the heart cells - the theory consists of a long

string of logical but unproven inferences. Of course thats all he has to go on

given the state of CFS research. Pall's theory makes sense - there is evidence

for it - but almost no work has been down actually studying it. Its a shame

kdrbrill <kdrbrill@...> wrote:

>

> L-Arginine always seems to get a bad rap when it comes to

> CFIDS, because it is a precursor to nitric oxide, and some

> research has shown elevated NO levels in some patients with

> CFIDS, plus, it also competes with l-lysine, which is purported

to

> have anti-viral properties.

>

> After the recent discussion re Dr. Cheney's heart disease

> hypothesis however, I'm wondering if the elevated NO levels

are

> the body's natural attempt to address the heart disease or

> bolster the immune function?

>

> After all, NO is essential for killing off bugs, germs, bacteria,

etc.,

> plus, NO is essential for proper cardiovascular function. This

> review of studies from 1966-2000 seems to support the use of

> l-arginine in those with cardiovascular disease:

>

> http://www.theannals.com/cgi/content/abstract/35/6/755

>

> L-arginine in the management of cardiovascular diseases

> JW Cheng, SN Baldwin, and SN Balwin

>

>

> OBJECTIVE: To examine the role of L-arginine in the

> management of cardiovascular diseases. DATA SOURCES: A

> MEDLINE search (1966-April 2000) of review articles, using the

> search terms arginine, nitric oxide, and cardiovascular

diseases,

> was conducted. After reviewing these articles, primary studies

> using the search terms arginine, hypercholesterolemia,

> hypertension, diabetes, smoking, ischemic heart disease, and

> heart failure were reviewed. STUDY SELECTION:

> English-language human studies were selected and

evaluated

> based on quality of review. DATA SYNTHESIS: Small-scale

> studies have demonstrated that intravenous L-arginine

> augments endothelial function by enhancing vasodilation and

> reducing monocyte adhesion. Oral supplementation

> demonstrated similar effects as well as improvement of

exercise

> ability in patients with cardiovascular diseases.

CONCLUSIONS:

> L-arginine improves the management of multiple

cardiovascular

> diseases. However, most published human studies are small.

> Before therapy can be routinely recommended, larger,

> well-designed studies are required to confirm its effect. "

>

> Personally, I took l-arginine/l-orthinine back in early 2001 for

> about 2 months. I felt much better for about 6-7 months after

> that. (I was also taking SAM-e, and a few other things, but the

> supplement I haven't taken in years is l-arginine.)

>

> Just putting this out there for discussion.

>

> Dan

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested

in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

>

[Guest guest]

This is interesting. I just read that Candida holds on to heavy metals,

and when it is killed off suddenly, such as with treatments, the heavy

metals are released suddenly and can cause damage to organs. Does

anyone know if a candida infection would cause increased NO levels?

Re: Cheney, Heart Disease, CFIDS

and...ARGININE?

I believe it is. Cheney said he believes the 'nexus' of this disease

has to do with infections and heavy metals and damage to the heart. The

increased NO levels come from iNOS responding to infection. SInce the

infection is never completely resolved increased NO becomes chronic.

You wouldnt think taking arginine would help since it increases NO

levels. There are different kinds of NO though - perhaps it assisted

endothelial NO and helped microcirculatory blood flows by opening the

blood vessels??? Who knows? Maybe we are NO increased in one area and

NO decreased - wouldn't that be great. NO is just going to remain a big

mystery until we get some extensive studies on it in CFS.

[Guest guest]

Does

> anyone know if a candida infection would cause increased NO

levels?

Hi Kurt,

I don't KNOW, but I would assume it might. But would that be a

bad thing or a good thing -- the body's natural attempt to fight the

candida overgrowth?

I remember a message posted by a woman who had had CFIDS

and fibro for 23 years. She said the treatment that gave her the

most benefit, especially energy-wise, was food-grade hydrogen

peroxide (starting with one drop in a glass of water 3 times a

day, and working up to 9 drops) along with some antioxidants.

What does hydrogen peroxide do? It releases a LOT of nitric

oxide...

d.

>

> Re: Cheney, Heart Disease,

CFIDS

> and...ARGININE?

>

> I believe it is. Cheney said he believes the 'nexus' of this

disease

> has to do with infections and heavy metals and damage to the

heart. The

> increased NO levels come from iNOS responding to infection.

SInce the

> infection is never completely resolved increased NO becomes

chronic.

>

> You wouldnt think taking arginine would help since it increases

NO

> levels. There are different kinds of NO though - perhaps it

assisted

> endothelial NO and helped microcirculatory blood flows by

opening the

> blood vessels??? Who knows? Maybe we are NO increased

in one area and

> NO decreased - wouldn't that be great. NO is just going to

remain a big

> mystery until we get some extensive studies on it in CFS.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting. I have a relative who was a patient of Cheney and had a

very bad case of CFIDS. She went through years of Cheney treatment and

improved marginally enough to be functional again, but not well. Then

she met up with an alt med practitioner who insisted that his patients

were getting well from H2O2. So she took the peroxide as IV for a few

months, I believe a week or two apart. It was a miserable experience,

she was very glad to finish the regimen. But she got completely well.

She has a life now. I don't know if it will last, but so far so good

(this was over a year ago). I don't think she knows why it worked, but

she was classic CFIDS per Cheney, with DI, etc.

Might be interesting to find out what H2O2 does - is it the NO? Or

maybe does it kill a blood-borne infection, maybe candida or something

like that?

--Kurt

Re: Cheney, Heart Disease,

CFIDS

> and...ARGININE?

>

> I believe it is. Cheney said he believes the 'nexus' of this

disease

> has to do with infections and heavy metals and damage to the

heart. The

> increased NO levels come from iNOS responding to infection.

SInce the

> infection is never completely resolved increased NO becomes

chronic.

>

> You wouldnt think taking arginine would help since it increases

NO

> levels. There are different kinds of NO though - perhaps it

assisted

> endothelial NO and helped microcirculatory blood flows by

opening the

> blood vessels??? Who knows? Maybe we are NO increased

in one area and

> NO decreased - wouldn't that be great. NO is just going to

remain a big

> mystery until we get some extensive studies on it in CFS.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was interested in this H2O2 treatment until I googled it and came

across a story about someone who died after having intravenous H2O2.

Helen

> Does

> > anyone know if a candida infection would cause increased NO

> levels?

>

> Hi Kurt,

>

> I don't KNOW, but I would assume it might. But would that be a

> bad thing or a good thing -- the body's natural attempt to fight

the

> candida overgrowth?

>

> I remember a message posted by a woman who had had CFIDS

> and fibro for 23 years. She said the treatment that gave her the

> most benefit, especially energy-wise, was food-grade hydrogen

> peroxide (starting with one drop in a glass of water 3 times a

> day, and working up to 9 drops) along with some antioxidants.

>

> What does hydrogen peroxide do? It releases a LOT of nitric

> oxide...

>

> d.

>

>

> >

> > Re: Cheney, Heart Disease,

> CFIDS

> > and...ARGININE?

> >

> > I believe it is. Cheney said he believes the 'nexus' of this

> disease

> > has to do with infections and heavy metals and damage to the

> heart. The

> > increased NO levels come from iNOS responding to infection.

> SInce the

> > infection is never completely resolved increased NO becomes

> chronic.

> >

> > You wouldnt think taking arginine would help since it increases

> NO

> > levels. There are different kinds of NO though - perhaps it

> assisted

> > endothelial NO and helped microcirculatory blood flows by

> opening the

> > blood vessels??? Who knows? Maybe we are NO increased

> in one area and

> > NO decreased - wouldn't that be great. NO is just going to

> remain a big

> > mystery until we get some extensive studies on it in CFS.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

>

> I was interested in this H2O2 treatment until I googled it and came

> across a story about someone who died after having intravenous H2O2.

>

> Helen

Helen,

Once again.............what is good for one person may be rotten for

another. A friend of mine who has cfs also had H202 IV treatments and

it actually made her worse. I am glad it worked for Kurts' relative

but we all must tread with caution.

Tammy

[Guest guest]

I believe it kills pathogens. I took it early on - about 20 years ago. My

doctor did it as a last resort. It didnt do anything positive or negative then.

When I saw Dr. Rea - who treats MS, one of his assistants said I was lucky it

didnt kill me. Obviously its very controversial . As I remember H202 is a mild

oxidant; as it devolves, however, I think it can create alot of free radicals.

Maybe thats how it kills the pathogens.

helen9jora <helen9jora@...> wrote:

I was interested in this H2O2 treatment until I googled it and came

across a story about someone who died after having intravenous H2O2.

Helen

> Does

> > anyone know if a candida infection would cause increased NO

> levels?

>

> Hi Kurt,

>

> I don't KNOW, but I would assume it might. But would that be a

> bad thing or a good thing -- the body's natural attempt to fight

the

> candida overgrowth?

>

> I remember a message posted by a woman who had had CFIDS

> and fibro for 23 years. She said the treatment that gave her the

> most benefit, especially energy-wise, was food-grade hydrogen

> peroxide (starting with one drop in a glass of water 3 times a

> day, and working up to 9 drops) along with some antioxidants.

>

> What does hydrogen peroxide do? It releases a LOT of nitric

> oxide...

>

> d.

>

>

> >

> > Re: Cheney, Heart Disease,

> CFIDS

> > and...ARGININE?

> >

> > I believe it is. Cheney said he believes the 'nexus' of this

> disease

> > has to do with infections and heavy metals and damage to the

> heart. The

> > increased NO levels come from iNOS responding to infection.

> SInce the

> > infection is never completely resolved increased NO becomes

> chronic.

> >

> > You wouldnt think taking arginine would help since it increases

> NO

> > levels. There are different kinds of NO though - perhaps it

> assisted

> > endothelial NO and helped microcirculatory blood flows by

> opening the

> > blood vessels??? Who knows? Maybe we are NO increased

> in one area and

> > NO decreased - wouldn't that be great. NO is just going to

> remain a big

> > mystery until we get some extensive studies on it in CFS.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I think there probably have been MANY unreported cases of death from

H2O2. Even though I have one relative who got well from H2O2, it was a

very difficult experience for her. But there is another story, also in

my extended family (the step-father of one of my brothers-in-law to be

precise) of a probable death from H2O2. He was being treated with IV

H2O2, and was not improving. He was in his late 50s or early 60s I

believe. The practitioner insisted that he was about to 'turn the

corner' and just needed more. So he relented, he was really 'into'

alternative medicine, and the practitioner increased the dose. He died

that week of a strange and unknown cause. Impossible to pin down what

really happened, but the correlation with the H2O2 treatment is

undeniable. My brother-in-law believes the H2O2 was the cause. He will

never know for sure of course.

The problem is that many deaths like this, from many treatments, not

just H2O2, are not properly classified. I think you practically have to

die in your doctor's office minutes after a treatment to get these

things properly classified. Even then they will find ways to attribute

the death to other causes, or 'pre-existing' conditions. And this

happens throughout all health-care, probably even more common in

'mainstream' medicine. And many drug trials result in test subject

deaths, and almost always the deaths are attributed to other causes.

But the drug certainly helped them out the door. Anyway, there are

lots of cases of death on both sides of this aisle.

I don't really want to get too morbid, we all will die sooner or later,

we are just trying to make that later, right? :-) There are always

risks, and in my opinion a simple rule is the stronger the therapy, the

greater the risk. H2O2 can be either strong or weak, depends on how

you approach the therapy. I like gentle and gradual therapies. We can

only 'evolve' our own body so fast towards better health.

--Kurt

Re: Re: Cheney, Heart Disease, CFIDS

and...ARGININE?

IV H2O2 is perfectly safe as along as it is properly adminerstered.

There has been one case of death, this was not due to to the h2o2 but

other causes relating to his medications. Mainstream medicine has jumped

on this ONE case, when thousdands of people die annually from 'properly'

prescribed medications.

Blake

cort johnson wrote:

..

[Guest guest]

IV H2O2 is perfectly safe as along as it is properly adminerstered.

There has been one case of death, this was not due to to the h2o2 but

other causes relating to his medications. Mainstream medicine has jumped

on this ONE case, when thousdands of people die annually from 'properly'

prescribed medications.

Blake

cort johnson wrote:

> I believe it kills pathogens. I took it early on - about 20 years

> ago. My doctor did it as a last resort. It didnt do anything

> positive or negative then. When I saw Dr. Rea - who treats MS, one of

> his assistants said I was lucky it didnt kill me. Obviously its very

> controversial . As I remember H202 is a mild oxidant; as it devolves,

> however, I think it can create alot of free radicals. Maybe thats how

> it kills the pathogens.

>

> helen9jora <helen9jora@...> wrote:

> I was interested in this H2O2 treatment until I googled it and came

> across a story about someone who died after having intravenous H2O2.

>

> Helen

>

>

>

> > Does

> > > anyone know if a candida infection would cause increased NO

> > levels?

> >

> > Hi Kurt,

> >

> > I don't KNOW, but I would assume it might. But would that be a

> > bad thing or a good thing -- the body's natural attempt to fight

> the

> > candida overgrowth?

> >

> > I remember a message posted by a woman who had had CFIDS

> > and fibro for 23 years. She said the treatment that gave her the

> > most benefit, especially energy-wise, was food-grade hydrogen

> > peroxide (starting with one drop in a glass of water 3 times a

> > day, and working up to 9 drops) along with some antioxidants.

> >

> > What does hydrogen peroxide do? It releases a LOT of nitric

> > oxide...

> >

> > d.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Re: Cheney, Heart Disease,

> > CFIDS

> > > and...ARGININE?

> > >

> > > I believe it is. Cheney said he believes the 'nexus' of this

> > disease

> > > has to do with infections and heavy metals and damage to the

> > heart. The

> > > increased NO levels come from iNOS responding to infection.

> > SInce the

> > > infection is never completely resolved increased NO becomes

> > chronic.

> > >

> > > You wouldnt think taking arginine would help since it increases

> > NO

> > > levels. There are different kinds of NO though - perhaps it

> > assisted

> > > endothelial NO and helped microcirculatory blood flows by

> > opening the

> > > blood vessels??? Who knows? Maybe we are NO increased

> > in one area and

> > > NO decreased - wouldn't that be great. NO is just going to

> > remain a big

> > > mystery until we get some extensive studies on it in CFS.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >