Re: New group to discuss toxification and oxidative stress/the F word

[Guest guest]

Hey Rob,

I love the idea for this group and have joined!

But I cringed at the use of " the 'fatigue' syndromes " to describe some target

disorders. Not just because of the putrid " F " and " S " words, but because this

phrase, which has creeped into our world (on it's belly) to my knowledge has one

source, and that is Simon Wessley, UK shrink and the " Wessley School " who have

wimped down the disease of Myalgic Encephalomyelitis...and the " original " CFS

into these even more vaguely titled " Fatigue Syndromes " . AND which he (SW) has

made quite clear that, according to him, these are modern day HYSTERIAS.

You might take special note, because this school and SW, with considerable

influence in medical journals, insurance industry, Department of Defense, etc.

has also trivialised any chemical cause of Gulf War Syndrome...AND testified

internationally that the primary concern after a Chemical Spill or Attack would

be psychological...ie: mass hysteria.

So, unless you agree with the psych pronouncements, PLEASE consider not using

those terms ( " Fatigue syndromes " ), because that is the only place they will lead

us...the psych basket.

I think it's important that we know these labelings' insideous origins/meanings,

so as not to unwittingly contribute to psych basketing ourselves.

Especially attached with the important focus of your new group!

Thanks,

Katrina

> I've been thinking lately about how we can get wider acceptance of the

> role that toxification and oxidative stress play in the development of a

> wide range of illnesses, especially the " fatigue " syndromes.

>

> I've decided that the best way forward will be to form a new discussion

> group dedicated to this subject so that we can achieve more focus than is

> possible in a general group, however good. The intention is to create a

> forum where a whole range of issues can be looked at; not just my views

> but those of others who are interested in this difficult and complex

> subject. I hope that it will be a place where experiences, observations

> and information can be shared and that we shall all be able to learn more.

>

> The group has been created, the description is below and members here who

> are interested are welcome to join now. Posting will start very shortly,

> and I look forward to seeing some of you there.

>

> Rob

>

> Group name: oxidative_stress

> Group home page: oxidative_stress

>

> If you are concerned about the growing level of pollutants in our air,

> water and food, are concerned about the ever-reducing levels of

> micronutrients in our diet due to intensive agriculture and food

> processing, and want to do something to counter these problems, this group

> could be for you. It will be of particular interest to those who have

> medical conditions such as fibromyalgia, CFS, CFIDS, ME, MCS or OPP and

> others who believe or suspect that an accumulation of environmental toxins

> has damaged their health. I hope that it will also interest researchers in

> the field.

>

> Detoxification or detox does not appear in the title to avoid confusion

> with groups that are concerned with recovery from alcoholism and

> drug-related problems. We shall be concerned with environmental

> pollutants, body chemistry, detoxification pathways, the immune system and

> the role of free radicals and antioxidants. We shall try to understand

> these difficult subjects better, and explore treatments and ways to get

> and stay healthy. The group will have a strong positive thrust and will

> concentrate on information gained from our own discoveries and from

> published papers.

>

> For security reasons, attachments will not be accepted and state

> that this option will also exclude HTML posts. New members will be

> moderated to exclude spam, MLM merchants and off-topic posts. Reasoned

> argument and constructive criticism will be encouraged; negative attitudes

> and personal attacks will not. Although humour and emotional support will

> be off-topic, I hope that this group will become a community, so all

> members will be required to post under their own names.

[Guest guest]

Hi Katrina,

Steady on. I put it in inverted commas so you know I'm on message.

I've campaigned against the psychs as hard as anybody but please tell me

what other collective term to use. I wanted for this reason but some

folks didn't listen. You notice I avoided fatigue in the group

description -- I listed them out, but it's hard to do that every time.

Actually, I'm just writing my first post to the new group so I'll keep the

F word out just for you :~}

Glad you've joined, tho. Welcome aboard. We now have well over forty

members less than 24 hours after I announced the formation of the group.

That's way higher than I expected at this stage. It's looking very good.

Rob

----- Original Message -----

From: " kattemayo " <kattemayo@...>

Hey Rob,

I love the idea for this group and have joined!

But I cringed at the use of " the 'fatigue' syndromes " to describe some

target disorders. Not just because of the putrid " F " and " S " words, but

because this phrase, which has creeped into our world (on it's belly) to

my knowledge has one source, and that is Simon Wessley, UK shrink and the

" Wessley School " who have wimped down the disease of Myalgic

Encephalomyelitis...and the " original " CFS into these even more vaguely

titled " Fatigue Syndromes " . AND which he (SW) has made quite clear that,

according to him, these are modern day HYSTERIAS.

You might take special note, because this school and SW, with considerable

influence in medical journals, insurance industry, Department of Defense,

etc. has also trivialised any chemical cause of Gulf War Syndrome...AND

testified internationally that the primary concern after a Chemical Spill

or Attack would be psychological...ie: mass hysteria.

So, unless you agree with the psych pronouncements, PLEASE consider not

using those terms ( " Fatigue syndromes " ), because that is the only place

they will lead us...the psych basket.

I think it's important that we know these labelings' insideous

origins/meanings, so as not to unwittingly contribute to psych basketing

ourselves.

Especially attached with the important focus of your new group!

Thanks,

Katrina

> I've been thinking lately about how we can get wider acceptance of the

> role that toxification and oxidative stress play in the development of a

> wide range of illnesses, especially the " fatigue " syndromes.

>

> I've decided that the best way forward will be to form a new discussion

> group dedicated to this subject so that we can achieve more focus than

> is

> possible in a general group, however good. The intention is to create a

> forum where a whole range of issues can be looked at; not just my views

> but those of others who are interested in this difficult and complex

> subject. I hope that it will be a place where experiences, observations

> and information can be shared and that we shall all be able to learn

> more.

>

> The group has been created, the description is below and members here

> who

> are interested are welcome to join now. Posting will start very shortly,

> and I look forward to seeing some of you there.

>

> Rob

>

> Group name: oxidative_stress

> Group home page: oxidative_stress

>

> If you are concerned about the growing level of pollutants in our air,

> water and food, are concerned about the ever-reducing levels of

> micronutrients in our diet due to intensive agriculture and food

> processing, and want to do something to counter these problems, this

> group

> could be for you. It will be of particular interest to those who have

> medical conditions such as fibromyalgia, CFS, CFIDS, ME, MCS or OPP and

> others who believe or suspect that an accumulation of environmental

> toxins

> has damaged their health. I hope that it will also interest researchers

> in

> the field.

>

> Detoxification or detox does not appear in the title to avoid confusion

> with groups that are concerned with recovery from alcoholism and

> drug-related problems. We shall be concerned with environmental

> pollutants, body chemistry, detoxification pathways, the immune system

> and

> the role of free radicals and antioxidants. We shall try to understand

> these difficult subjects better, and explore treatments and ways to get

> and stay healthy. The group will have a strong positive thrust and will

> concentrate on information gained from our own discoveries and from

> published papers.

>

> For security reasons, attachments will not be accepted and state

> that this option will also exclude HTML posts. New members will be

> moderated to exclude spam, MLM merchants and off-topic posts. Reasoned

> argument and constructive criticism will be encouraged; negative

> attitudes

> and personal attacks will not. Although humour and emotional support

> will

> be off-topic, I hope that this group will become a community, so all

> members will be required to post under their own names.

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

> > I've been thinking lately about how we can get wider acceptance of the

> > role that toxification and oxidative stress play in the development of a

> > wide range of illnesses, especially the " fatigue " syndromes.

> >

> > I've decided that the best way forward will be to form a new discussion

> > group dedicated to this subject so that we can achieve more focus than

> > is

> > possible in a general group, however good. The intention is to create a

> > forum where a whole range of issues can be looked at; not just my views

> > but those of others who are interested in this difficult and complex

> > subject. I hope that it will be a place where experiences, observations

> > and information can be shared and that we shall all be able to learn

> > more.

> >

> > The group has been created, the description is below and members here

> > who

> > are interested are welcome to join now. Posting will start very shortly,

> > and I look forward to seeing some of you there.

> >

> > Rob

> >

> > Group name: oxidative_stress

> > Group home page: oxidative_stress

> >

> > If you are concerned about the growing level of pollutants in our air,

> > water and food, are concerned about the ever-reducing levels of

> > micronutrients in our diet due to intensive agriculture and food

> > processing, and want to do something to counter these problems, this

> > group

> > could be for you. It will be of particular interest to those who have

> > medical conditions such as fibromyalgia, CFS, CFIDS, ME, MCS or OPP and

> > others who believe or suspect that an accumulation of environmental

> > toxins

> > has damaged their health. I hope that it will also interest researchers

> > in

> > the field.

> >

> > Detoxification or detox does not appear in the title to avoid confusion

> > with groups that are concerned with recovery from alcoholism and

> > drug-related problems. We shall be concerned with environmental

> > pollutants, body chemistry, detoxification pathways, the immune system

> > and

> > the role of free radicals and antioxidants. We shall try to understand

> > these difficult subjects better, and explore treatments and ways to get

> > and stay healthy. The group will have a strong positive thrust and will

> > concentrate on information gained from our own discoveries and from

> > published papers.

> >

> > For security reasons, attachments will not be accepted and state

> > that this option will also exclude HTML posts. New members will be

> > moderated to exclude spam, MLM merchants and off-topic posts. Reasoned

> > argument and constructive criticism will be encouraged; negative

> > attitudes

> > and personal attacks will not. Although humour and emotional support

> > will

> > be off-topic, I hope that this group will become a community, so all

> > members will be required to post under their own names.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

[Guest guest]

Glad you've joined, tho. Welcome aboard. We now have well over forty

members less than 24 hours after I announced the formation of the group.

That's way higher than I expected at this stage. It's looking very good.

Rob

Hey, thats great news Rob, many of us are interested in what you have learned

and applied.

As far as the 'f' word (fatigue),of course we all hate it but its unfortunately

our most crippling symptom, to not mention it might risk others needing help

'not' finding this group. I've been ill a lot longer than Wessley has been

trying to pervert the illness so in my mind, he doesn't 'own' the CFS or F

label, he is totally irrelevant and useless to me.

Marcia

[Guest guest]

My mistake was to go to Dr Cheney BEFORE he knew there was an

epidemic. Even though I was impressed with his belief, understanding

and motivation - he didn't have a clue as to what was wrong with me.

So I went Dr Shopping again and it wasn't until I was a headline in

the North Lake Tahoe " Bonanza " that said " Mysterious Fatiguing

Illness " that I found out that Dr Cheney and Dr had teamed

up and identified the existence of the " Tahoe Mystery Illness " .

I showed it to the " doctor " I was currently getting no help, belief

or comprehension from and he told me that he had already seen it.

I couldn't believe it! I yelled " What! This describes all my

symptoms! You KNEW about this and DIDN'T EVEN TELL ME!! "

And he said " Yes, I knew. But those two doctors are quacks and should

be run out of town " .

So it was ME that did the running, right down the street to Dr Cheney

and s office - only six buildings away.

These crappy doctors were NEVER going to help us.

They were NEVER going to LOOK for the concurrency of our complaints

the way Dr Cheney and Dr did.

They could NEVER be relied on to do research, find out about Myalgic

Encephalomyelitis and say " I think this is what you have " .

They are FULLY PREPARED to spend their entire careers calling you

crazy and selling you vitamins and useless therapies. They've proved

that over and over and over again.

It was thanks to the INSULT of Yuppie Flu and CFS that we could read

about others like us and make contact with those doctors who weren't

completely brain dead (rare, but they DO exist).

The vast majority of doctors have demonstrated that they have no

intention of believing, helping or researching the condition of

these " Fatigue Syndromes " .

SINCE THEY WILL NOT, I fully support the use of " Fatigue Syndromes "

by serious researchers and " CFS groups " to attract the attention of

people who recognize that there are others out there that are just

like them, suffering from a devastating illness that doctors keep

calling " Fatigue " even though it is the worst thing you ever felt in

your life.

Just like me, people need a starting point to find out about others.

I'm not too sure I would have ever found out about Myalgic

Encephalomyelitis FROM ANY DOCTORS - but I sure did from these groups

of people that had formed because doctors had abandoned them to the

trash can of CFS.

So.... like I keep saying over and over. I'm not asking anybody to

LIKE the term " CFS " or to retain it as the name for any illness.

I just say that it has proven very useful in getting people in touch

with others who can put them on the right trail when almost all the

doctors are completely lost.

-