Re: Strange experience with Whey products

[Guest guest]

wrote: Does anyone have any idea why something that

helped so tremendously would now bring on or worsen flu-like

symptoms? Thanks very much!

bg writes: , this is just my guess on this -- but, based

on my own experience.

Since you apparently picked up some organisms from your husband's

illness, and may have had some others existing, it's likely that as

the whey protein manufactured glutathione, it was detoxifying these

same organisms and you were feeling a reaction from your body's

dealing with these toxins.

I'm thinking this because when I first went on Metagenics Whey

Protein, I too had been diagnosed with a respiratory bug that was

resistant; and I was not tolerating the dual antibiotics I had been

prescribed and had to discontinue them. I had to use something to

address the organisms, and researching show whey protein might be

the answer.

When I took a normal dosage of the whey, I had reactions right away,

with pain/discomfort in areas of my head where an original infection

was when I first became chronically ill. I reduced the dosage from

2 scoops to 1 scoop, and I tolerated it much better, and I at least

knew it was doing something. I remained on the one scoop for 6

months, and at the end of this time when I was retested, the

organism had been reduced to within normal range. Have you tried

reducing your dosage to see if it is tolerable?

Good luck,

bg

> Hi All : ) I am having a strange reaction to whey and would

really

> appreciate any insight anyone could provide. I first used whey

products (Immunocal and

> then Immunepro) about 5 years ago and they were a godsend.

Although

> initially they gave me some insomnia and toxic feelings, very

rapidly they got rid of

> fevers, painful lymph nodes and extreme fatigue which are my worst

symptoms.

>

> Last year, something strange happened. I got a series of

colds from my

> husband and after that, the whey products (and I've tried them ALL

now ) began

> to *cause* all of the flu-like symptoms, and this feeling only got

worse the

> longer I stuck out the whey.

>

> I've also tried branch amino acids, cysteine on it's

own, " CFS

> Nutrition's " formula for boosting glutathione and everything else

I can think of to

> boost glutathione production (lab tests confirm that low

glutathione and hhv6

> reactivation are part of the problem) and they all now CAUSE the

fevers and

> painful glands!

>

> I have found some success with high doses of Moducare, which is

plant

> sterols and sterolins, and which is known to shift immune

functioning from TH2

> dominance back towards a balance between TH1 and TH2. Also, I

have been using

> large doses (a full dropperful a day) of Pinextra, another TH2 to

TH1 shifter.

>

> The Moducare and the Pinextra help somewhat (and if you have flu

like

> symptoms, I do definitely reccommend trying both of them), but

even together they

> are not as good as the whey was.

>

> Does anyone have any idea why something that helped so

tremendously would

> now bring on or worsen flu-like symptoms? Thanks very much!

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

The experience of many who've taken whey is that it helps a lot in

detoxification and in boosting the immune system but only for a limited

period. I started ImmunePro in April 01 with a huge response to small

doses and stopped in September 02 because I had ceased to respond at all

no matter how large the dose. Every agent has a mixture of upsides and

downsides. If you're no longer getting the upsides, you'll just have the

downsides.

I have said this before many times and I'll say it again. Attempting to

rely on large doses of too few therapeutic agents is a big mistake and the

biggest single reason why most sufferers don't make the advances that they

hope for. The reason so many keep on making this mistake is that it is

part of North American culture to look for a silver bullet simple

technical fix. The snag is that the human body is unimaginably complex and

it has evolved to thrive on modest intakes of a very wide range of

nutrients.

I have formed a new group to explore better-informed approaches to

treatment. After a week, we have 77 members and I think that the group

will grow to be a good source of reliable information for many sufferers

and health professionals. You and others who might be interested can find

us here.

Group home page: oxidative_stress

Rob

----- Original Message -----

From: <Inthepresent@...>

I have found some success with high doses of Moducare, which is plant

sterols and sterolins, and which is known to shift immune functioning from

TH2

dominance back towards a balance between TH1 and TH2. Also, I have been

using

large doses (a full dropperful a day) of Pinextra, another TH2 to TH1

shifter.

The Moducare and the Pinextra help somewhat (and if you have flu like

symptoms, I do definitely reccommend trying both of them), but even

together they

are not as good as the whey was.

Does anyone have any idea why something that helped so tremendously would

now bring on or worsen flu-like symptoms? Thanks very much!

[Guest guest]

,

I think I agree with both bg and Rob on this one.

I think the flu-like symptoms are produced by the response of your

immune system to infections. Perhaps you have some new one or ones

that you didn't have 5 years ago. So I do think that the whey

protein is helping your immune system even now.

However, it appears that your immune system is not able to prevail

over this new infection or infections. I think that's where Rob's

comment comes in. Perhaps there is another or more than one other

nutrient that your immune system is short of. Are you taking a high-

potency general nutritional supplement, such as Sparx

(www.krysalis.net)? The immune system is known to need vitamins A,

C, and E particularly, and minerals including zinc, selenium,

magnesium, and iron, especially.

Rich

> Hi All : ) I am having a strange reaction to whey and would

really

> appreciate any insight anyone could provide. I first used whey

products (Immunocal and

> then Immunepro) about 5 years ago and they were a godsend.

Although

> initially they gave me some insomnia and toxic feelings, very

rapidly they got rid of

> fevers, painful lymph nodes and extreme fatigue which are my worst

symptoms.

>

> Last year, something strange happened. I got a series of

colds from my

> husband and after that, the whey products (and I've tried them ALL

now ) began

> to *cause* all of the flu-like symptoms, and this feeling only got

worse the

> longer I stuck out the whey.

>

> I've also tried branch amino acids, cysteine on it's

own, " CFS

> Nutrition's " formula for boosting glutathione and everything else

I can think of to

> boost glutathione production (lab tests confirm that low

glutathione and hhv6

> reactivation are part of the problem) and they all now CAUSE the

fevers and

> painful glands!

>

> I have found some success with high doses of Moducare, which is

plant

> sterols and sterolins, and which is known to shift immune

functioning from TH2

> dominance back towards a balance between TH1 and TH2. Also, I

have been using

> large doses (a full dropperful a day) of Pinextra, another TH2 to

TH1 shifter.

>

> The Moducare and the Pinextra help somewhat (and if you have flu

like

> symptoms, I do definitely reccommend trying both of them), but

even together they

> are not as good as the whey was.

>

> Does anyone have any idea why something that helped so

tremendously would

> now bring on or worsen flu-like symptoms? Thanks very much!

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/9/2004 7:18:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,

richvank@... writes:

I think I agree with both bg and Rob on this one.

I think the flu-like symptoms are produced by the response of your

immune system to infections. Perhaps you have some new one or ones

that you didn't have 5 years ago. So I do think that the whey

protein is helping your immune system even now.

However, it appears that your immune system is not able to prevail

over this new infection or infections. I think that's where Rob's

comment comes in. Perhaps there is another or more than one other

nutrient that your immune system is short of. Are you taking a high-

potency general nutritional supplement, such as Sparx

(www.krysalis.net)? The immune system is known to need vitamins A,

C, and E particularly, and minerals including zinc, selenium,

magnesium, and iron, especially.

Rich, Barb, Rob and bg,

Thank you so much! You have given me a lot of ideas. I think you must

be right, Rich that I have picked up some new antigen or at any rate had my

immune system affected by a new antigen.

It is time for some new immune testing (haven't had immune system tests

since developing this new whey intolerance/ flu-like feeling). I am not

taking a high potency general supplement and will look into Sparx.

I think a good test is the Great Smokies detox from caffiene and aspirin

test. This test shows up problems in detox pathways and deficiencies in

various amino acids like glutathione.

I think the key issue for many with cfids is activated viruses, and the

trick is to find remedies that will make them go latent as they should be.

To bg, yes, I have tried teeny-weeny doses of whey and even they make me

feel like I have a terrible flu!

To Rob,

Thanks for the heads-up regarding relying on only a few supplements for

relief. I will try to vary and mix them more if I can find some additions to

the Moducare and the Pine cone extract (Pinextra).

I believe Dr. Cheney stresses varying immune boosters/modulators also

because the immune system can acclimate to a substance. Thanks for telling

me/us about your new oxidative stress group on . It sounds very

interesting.

Thanks again to everyone!! This has been one tough nut to crack!!

[Guest guest]

hi i used to get very sick with bad headaches, sleep long hours , swollen

glands from any whey products in the tinyest amounts ... i was so toxic

than which i think caused the herxing ... but now my system seems to be

tolearating up to two scoops of whey protein at least four hours apart and

i usually have more reactions early in the day tilll my body " wakes "

upl/// i can now get in one half casule of msm/glucosamine but anything

beyond that i lose my memory and get more consfused so i still have major

metaolbic blocks in my glutathioine system... someone suggested to me many

cfids people have great difficulty with sulfination process ... defer this

one to rich.

* i am also on modicure and am cuirous how much u take a day in am , pm

or other times day ..i also use natur leaf which comes from sprout s but

more expensive as they are both immune modulators and have cut down my

ecezma and also i think not sure why my candida promblems .....

i use 2 caps modicure( cheaper) along with 1 cap natur leaf in the am and

one cap modicure in pm along with one capsuole natur leaf in pm if i go

below that my ecezma flares up.

i did follow the high dose recommending for chronic illness with naturleaf

for the first three months.... till i found this manitnenacedose ..sure

toleartae this better than isoprosine but its out of pocket and non

reinvurseable by insurnace.

** where do u get pinextra and how much do u take and how often.

thanx in advance. tealk

> [Original Message]

> From: <Inthepresent@...>

> < >

> Date: 12/8/2004 6:28:20 PM

> Subject: Strange experience with Whey products

>

>

> Hi All : ) I am having a strange reaction to whey and would really

> appreciate any insight anyone could provide. I first used whey products

(Immunocal and

> then Immunepro) about 5 years ago and they were a godsend. Although

> initially they gave me some insomnia and toxic feelings, very rapidly

they got rid of

> fevers, painful lymph nodes and extreme fatigue which are my worst

symptoms.

>

> Last year, something strange happened. I got a series of colds from

my

> husband and after that, the whey products (and I've tried them ALL now )

began

> to *cause* all of the flu-like symptoms, and this feeling only got worse

the

> longer I stuck out the whey.

>

> I've also tried branch amino acids, cysteine on it's own, " CFS

> Nutrition's " formula for boosting glutathione and everything else I can

think of to

> boost glutathione production (lab tests confirm that low glutathione and

hhv6

> reactivation are part of the problem) and they all now CAUSE the fevers

and

> painful glands!

>

> I have found some success with high doses of Moducare, which is plant

> sterols and sterolins, and which is known to shift immune functioning

from TH2

> dominance back towards a balance between TH1 and TH2. Also, I have been

using

> large doses (a full dropperful a day) of Pinextra, another TH2 to TH1

shifter.

>

> The Moducare and the Pinextra help somewhat (and if you have flu like

> symptoms, I do definitely reccommend trying both of them), but even

together they

> are not as good as the whey was.

>

> Does anyone have any idea why something that helped so tremendously

would

> now bring on or worsen flu-like symptoms? Thanks very much!

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, .

I don't know how far to carry the " mad army " analogy, but the

supplements you mentioned may help.

Another possibility that I forgot to mention is that an infection

has gotten going that is too tough for the immune system to handle,

even if it has all the nutrients it can use. I think the cell-wall-

deficient bacterial infections that Trevor Marshall discusses may

fall into this category.

Nevertheless, I think it's worth trying to get the nutritional

status up to see if that does the job, and the supplements you

mentioned could be helpful.

Rich

>

> Rich, doesn't this sound like the army analogy we discussed some

> time ago?. Basically, the series of colds has caused her immune

> system to go mad, and whey just strengthens that mad army.

>

> It might make sense for her to cool down the inflammatory response

> first: alpha-lipoic acid, gamma-tocopherol, gamma-linolenic acid,

> fish or DHA supplements, green tea, etc. I posted my personal

> guidelines for them on Aug 2.

[Guest guest]

For some of us, we respond differently to the same ttmts/supps, as

this disease mutates or (Cheney) 'phases', over time

Lance

> > Hi All : ) I am having a strange reaction to whey and would

> really

> > appreciate any insight anyone could provide. I first used whey

> products (Immunocal and

> > then Immunepro) about 5 years ago and they were a godsend.

> Although

> > initially they gave me some insomnia and toxic feelings, very

> rapidly they got rid of

> > fevers, painful lymph nodes and extreme fatigue which are my worst

> symptoms.

> >

> > Last year, something strange happened. I got a series of

> colds from my

> > husband and after that, the whey products (and I've tried them ALL

> now ) began

> > to *cause* all of the flu-like symptoms, and this feeling only got

> worse the

> > longer I stuck out the whey.

> >

> > I've also tried branch amino acids, cysteine on it's

> own, " CFS

> > Nutrition's " formula for boosting glutathione and everything else

> I can think of to

> > boost glutathione production (lab tests confirm that low

> glutathione and hhv6

> > reactivation are part of the problem) and they all now CAUSE the

> fevers and

> > painful glands!

> >

> > I have found some success with high doses of Moducare, which is

> plant

> > sterols and sterolins, and which is known to shift immune

> functioning from TH2

> > dominance back towards a balance between TH1 and TH2. Also, I

> have been using

> > large doses (a full dropperful a day) of Pinextra, another TH2 to

> TH1 shifter.

> >

> > The Moducare and the Pinextra help somewhat (and if you have flu

> like

> > symptoms, I do definitely reccommend trying both of them), but

> even together they

> > are not as good as the whey was.

> >

> > Does anyone have any idea why something that helped so

> tremendously would

> > now bring on or worsen flu-like symptoms? Thanks very much!

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I just wanted to add, that although previously forum discussed, I

don't think diet gets mentioned enough. We often tend to think just

supplements

Do a google search for nutrient dense foods - especially fruits,

vegetables, whole grains, etc. Try, if possible, to find the freshest

produce, as it makes a world of difference in tasting good

[such as

http://www.produceoasis.com/Hierarchy_folder/Nutrition_folder/Nutrientlist.html]

A short list would include mangos, brocolli, papaya, kiwi-fruit,

spinach, cantaloupe, avocado, foods rich in Omega-3 (supplemented by

Omega-3/6/9 'butter' spreads), fresh garlic, deep-cold water fish (if

you tolerate protein), etc

_Really_ try to make these the mainstay of your diet (and/or

experiment/devise a diet that helps, from the abundance/and

controversial advice out there), vs just eating a carrot once every

week or two

For me, it has offerred a slight but noticeable gain in energy, and

reduction in constipation (even a couple of more hours vertical a week

is worth it to me). And, part of what may be damaged in us is the

ability to _absorb_ and utilize nutrients

Lance

> > Hi All : ) I am having a strange reaction to whey and would

> really

> > appreciate any insight anyone could provide. I first used whey

> products (Immunocal and

> > then Immunepro) about 5 years ago and they were a godsend.

> Although

> > initially they gave me some insomnia and toxic feelings, very

> rapidly they got rid of

> > fevers, painful lymph nodes and extreme fatigue which are my worst

> symptoms.

> >

> > Last year, something strange happened. I got a series of

> colds from my

> > husband and after that, the whey products (and I've tried them ALL

> now ) began

> > to *cause* all of the flu-like symptoms, and this feeling only got

> worse the

> > longer I stuck out the whey.

> >

> > I've also tried branch amino acids, cysteine on it's

> own, " CFS

> > Nutrition's " formula for boosting glutathione and everything else

> I can think of to

> > boost glutathione production (lab tests confirm that low

> glutathione and hhv6

> > reactivation are part of the problem) and they all now CAUSE the

> fevers and

> > painful glands!

> >

> > I have found some success with high doses of Moducare, which is

> plant

> > sterols and sterolins, and which is known to shift immune

> functioning from TH2

> > dominance back towards a balance between TH1 and TH2. Also, I

> have been using

> > large doses (a full dropperful a day) of Pinextra, another TH2 to

> TH1 shifter.

> >

> > The Moducare and the Pinextra help somewhat (and if you have flu

> like

> > symptoms, I do definitely reccommend trying both of them), but

> even together they

> > are not as good as the whey was.

> >

> > Does anyone have any idea why something that helped so

> tremendously would

> > now bring on or worsen flu-like symptoms? Thanks very much!

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Lance,

As an integrative nutritionist specialising in CFS, I couldn't agree

with you more!! People a doing them self a dis-service by not paying

much attention to their diet, but spending huge amounts of money on

supplements. I am a huge fan of supplements, althought they will never

replace the need for a healthy diet,

Regards, Blake

Regards, Blake

Lance wrote:

>I just wanted to add, that although previously forum discussed, I

>don't think diet gets mentioned enough. We often tend to think just

>supplements

>

>Do a google search for nutrient dense foods - especially fruits,

>vegetables, whole grains, etc. Try, if possible, to find the freshest

>produce, as it makes a world of difference in tasting good

>

>[such as

>http://www.produceoasis.com/Hierarchy_folder/Nutrition_folder/Nutrientlist.html\

]

>

>A short list would include mangos, brocolli, papaya, kiwi-fruit,

>spinach, cantaloupe, avocado, foods rich in Omega-3 (supplemented by

>Omega-3/6/9 'butter' spreads), fresh garlic, deep-cold water fish (if

>you tolerate protein), etc

>

>_Really_ try to make these the mainstay of your diet (and/or

>experiment/devise a diet that helps, from the abundance/and

>controversial advice out there), vs just eating a carrot once every

>week or two

>

>For me, it has offerred a slight but noticeable gain in energy, and

>reduction in constipation (even a couple of more hours vertical a week

>is worth it to me). And, part of what may be damaged in us is the

>ability to _absorb_ and utilize nutrients

>

>Lance

>