Rich: Cysteine vs. cystine ?

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich!

I'm reposting the message below because I originally posted it just

before your big weekend at the AACFS conference, and it seems to have

slipped through the cracks. But before we get to that I have a

couple of other questions first:

1. On the advice of a new member of our Seattle CFS & Fibro Support

Group I bought a can of BioChem Ultimate Lo Carb Whey Powder

http://www.iherb.com/ultilocawhey.html

From what it says on the web page, do you think this product would

more closely resemble the the ImmunoPro class of whey protein powders

than Designer Whey does? At your suggestion I've been taking

Designer Whey along with an NAC supplement capsule.

But I'm wondering fi the " Ultimate Lo Carb Whey Powder " might

actually contain enough cysteine that I could take it without having

to add the NAC capsule. Any ideas? (Of course the attraction of

this product is its low price compared to ImmunoPro et al.).

2. I read recently that once you open a can of whey protein powder

containing cysteine, as soon as it comes in contact with the air, the

cysteine is oxidized into cystine. What do you think of that claim?

3. And finally, here is my question from the previous message about

the relative merits of cysteine vs. cystine:

>

> Hi Rich!

>

> Based on the information you've provided us via this group I've

> decided to give whey protein a try. So I've been shopping around

the

> internet trying to decide which brand at which price.

>

> In the meantime got an email notice that a book (Alternative

Medicine

> Guide to Chronic Fatigue, Fibromyalgia & Environmental Illness) is

> due back at the library tomorrow. So I thought I'd look up

> glutathione in the index to see what it had to say. Here's a short

> excerpt from one article:

>

> " Immunocal contains concentrates of three substances in the

whey

> portion of milk (serum albumin, alph-lactalbumin, and

lactoferrin).

> These contain a large quantity of cystine, an amino acid breakdown

> product which is a more usable form of cysteine (the amino acid

> precursor of glutathione). "

>

> It seems like this is saying pretty much the opposite of what I

> understood you to say about the distinction between Immunopro and

> Designer Whey, i.e., that Immunopro was superior because it

contained

> cysteine, whereas Designer Whey contained cystine.

>

> Can you help me make sense of the above statement?

>

> P.S. Did you make your poster presentation this last weekend? I'm

> sure I'm not the only one who's looking forward to a report on how

it

> went.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Will.

I looked at the website, and it looks to me as though the product

you mentioned is similar to Immunocal or Imuplus. It's a whey

protein isolate, likely a byproduct of cheese manufacturing that has

been centrifuged and filtered to remove the damaged protein,

preserving the more-or-less undamaged protein. If this is true, I

would say that it is better than Designer Whey protein for building

glutathione, but not as good as ImmunoPro Rx. I think you could

stop the NAC. If you got a good deal on it, that sounds good.

By the way, I asked the guys at Personalized Metabolic Nutrition

about their product, and they told me that it is from the same

source as ImmunoPro Rx, and that they were able to get a good price

on it because the original buyer had defaulted. So you might want

to consider their product when your can gets close to empty. I

think they are offering it at a pretty reasonable price, if I

remember correctly. You could check with them at (415)257-3099.

I don't think that exposing nondenatured whey protein to the air is

going to oxidize the cysteine to cystine, so long as it's kept

fairly dry. In order to form cystine, two cysteine residues have to

come together. I don't think they will move around that much in dry

powder. Also, that reaction proceeds better when there is a

catalyst, and again, I don't think a catalyst is going to move

around much in dry powder.

Concerning the cystine vs. cysteine explanation for the efficacy of

nondenatured whey protein, unfortunately, I think the Immunocal

folks are just mistaken about this. Their argument goes back to the

book written by Drs. Allan Somersall and Gustavo Bounous, entitled

Breakthrough in Cell-Defense, of which I have a copy. In this book,

Dr. Bounous reports that this cystine idea just struck him while he

was watching a cooking show on TV.

He was trying to explain why recent batches of whey protein did not

boost the immune systems of his mice as the earlier ones had done.

When he learned that the pasteurization temperature had been raised,

he immediately thought that this must have broken the cystine bonds.

He has never published it in a peer-reviewed journal, to my

knowledge. Unfortunately, it does not make sense from a biochemical

point of view, as Prof. Marty Pall (on the Research list) explained

several years ago. When the whey proteins are made by the cow, the

cysteine is present as cysteine, and that's the way the calf's liver

is best able to use it, as you would guess. And the same goes for

our livers.

If the protein is not mistreated, such as by pasteurizing or acid-

treating, the cysteine will tend to stay as cysteine. However, if

the milk is heated in air, as in pasteurizing at 161 degrees F.,

which is the standard temperature for pasteurizing milk, the

cysteine will tend to be oxidized to cystine. If that happens, the

liver will not be able to absorb it very well. Instead, the kidneys

will absorb most of it, will convert it to cysteine, will use some

of it, and will release some back to the blood, so that the liver

will get some second-hand. So it's still useful, just not as useful

as from the original milk, because the liver is normally the main

producer and exporter of glutathione for the body.

Marty told us that the cystine bond cannot be broken even by boiling

the solution, unless a chemical reducing agent is added. This is

certainly not done during the pasteurization of milk.

I wrote a letter to Dr. Bounous a few years ago, asking if he had

any experimental evidence for his hypothesis. He replied that he

didn't, but that they had gotten the equipment to be able to test

it. I've never heard any more from them about this. I guess I

don't expect to.

I did send Dr. Bounous and Mr. Molson at Immunotec a copy of my

glutathione paper, and I got a nice e-mail back from Molson

thanking me for it. Maybe I'll hear something else from them when

they've had a chance to read it.

Rich

> >

> > Hi Rich!

> >

> > Based on the information you've provided us via this group I've

> > decided to give whey protein a try. So I've been shopping

around

> the

> > internet trying to decide which brand at which price.

> >

> > In the meantime got an email notice that a book (Alternative

> Medicine

> > Guide to Chronic Fatigue, Fibromyalgia & Environmental Illness)

is

> > due back at the library tomorrow. So I thought I'd look up

> > glutathione in the index to see what it had to say. Here's a

short

> > excerpt from one article:

> >

> > " Immunocal contains concentrates of three substances in the

> whey

> > portion of milk (serum albumin, alph-lactalbumin, and

> lactoferrin).

> > These contain a large quantity of cystine, an amino acid

breakdown

> > product which is a more usable form of cysteine (the amino acid

> > precursor of glutathione). "

> >

> > It seems like this is saying pretty much the opposite of what I

> > understood you to say about the distinction between Immunopro

and

> > Designer Whey, i.e., that Immunopro was superior because it

> contained

> > cysteine, whereas Designer Whey contained cystine.

> >

> > Can you help me make sense of the above statement?

> >

> > P.S. Did you make your poster presentation this last weekend?

I'm

> > sure I'm not the only one who's looking forward to a report on

how

> it

> > went.