Re: Kane Protocol- clotting.

[Guest guest]

I remember you mentioning this earlier. I asked my doc's nurse about

this. She said the liquid PC (brand name Essential N) is an

anticoagulant and hence the blood will not clot when one does the

procedure.

I am really sorry about what happened to is.

Gayathri.

> This is of GREAT concern. One of my concerns was simply that in

> withdrawing the blood and mixing it with the PC, they are allowing

> the blood time to clot--as blood does very quickly outside the

body.

> There was no filtering system provided as in dialysis or other

> procedures, admittedly the blood in being " rolled " to make the

> solution more liquid, is not outside the body for a long time, but

> long enough for clots to form.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Gayathri:

Nice to talk with you again.

Well ... your Doc's Nurse (how do I say this kindly), is misinformed.

PC is absoultely not an Anticoagulant! And for those of us with

Hypercoagulability or APS (Anti-phospholipid antibody Syndrome),

commonly referred to as Syndrome; an infusion of high doseage

of PC can cause a coagulation cascade.

Kane's book talks about this. Berg talks about this. And if

you search messages in this site you will see that many of us have

experienced it.

So what does PC do ...(benefits)

1) Phosphatidylcholine increases the solubility of cholesterol and

thereby decreases its ability to induce atherosclerosis.

Phosphatidylcholine also aids in lowering cholesterol levels,

removing cholesterol from tissue deposits, and inhibiting platelet

aggregation. (Brook, JG, Linn, S, and Aviram, M. Biochem Med Metabol

Biol. 35;31-39, 1986.)

2) Extensive research with PC has revealed that it protects the

liver against damage from alcohol, pharmaceuticals, environmental

pollutants, xenobiotics and infection due to viral, bacterial and

fungal manifestations (Lieber 1994a, 1994b, 1995, 2001a, 2001b).

3) The best-documented clinical success with PC to date is its

significant amelioration of liver damage, probably because liver

recovery following damage requires substantial replacement of cell

membrane mass.

X-Plaque (formerly PlaqueX)

Product Info

50ml contain: 2500mg essential Phospholipids (70%

Phosphatidylcholine),

1250mg Deoxycholic acid, 10mg Vitamin E, 10mg Nicotinic acid,

10mg Adenosine triphosphate, 450mg Benzylalcohol, 120mg Ethanol

--- asserts the following:

In animal studies it has been shown that the I.V. administration of

essential phospholipids rich in phosphatidylcholine are able to

reverse age-related changes in the lipid composition of heart muscle

cells. The use of Plaquex over the past decade by natural medicine

physicians worldwide has proved that the treatment is extremely

useful in helping patients avoid bypass surgery, angioplasy,

amputations (especially in diabetics) and strokes. Plaquex patients

experience improved kidney function, improved sexual potency, better

memory and over all improvement of their health. Most patients are

freed of taking many medications such as beta blockers,

nitroglycerine, calcium channel blockers, and other heart

medications.

They also go on to say:

Q: What side effects can Plaquex have ?

A: Diarrhea in severly atherosclerotic patients, or in patients

receiving daily treatments or patients who have no gall bladder;

elevation of HDL, LDL in the beginning, which will normalize with

continuing treatment; thrombophlebitis at the infusion site which can

be avoided by observing the following rules of application:

How to avoid thrombophlebitis:

1. Use 500 cc Dextrose or Glucose 5% instead of 250 cc

2. Use Becton & Dickinson teflon catheters and absolutley not TERUMO

catheters as experience has shown that they cause

thrombophlebitis.You can also use a butterfly.

3. Keep the time of infusion at 90 minutes minimum

Now Essentiale N is manufactured differently ... which is true.

Description of Essentiale N

Phospholipids from soya beans containing 93% (3-sn-

Phosphatidylcholine) (extractant: ethanol 96% V/V) 250 mg in 5 ml

Common uses

Hepatopathies of any origin: fatty liver (also in diabetes), acute

and chronic hepatitis, cirrhosis, necrosis of the liver, precoma,

coma, intoxication, cholestatis, prophylaxis of recurrent gallstones,

pre- and post-operative treatment especially in hepatobiliary

surgery, gestoses including hyperemesis, psoriasis, neurodermatitis,

radiation syndrome. Hepatic steatosis due to alcohol and metabolic

disorders (diabetes, lipidoproteic hypernutrition, obesity and

hyponutrition). Adjuvant in the treatment of intoxications from toxic

agents and some kinds of drugs (antitubercolotics; anti-psychotics;

anti-epileptics; immunosuppressants).

Contraindications

Known hypersensitivity to any of the ingredients. To be used only

under medical advice or in hospitals. Due to the benzylic alcohol

content, the product is not suitable for children under 2 years.

--- However ----

It was originally observed in patients with syphilis who received

mercury treatment [*]. 93% of patients with syphilis has

Syndrome http://www.neuroland.com/cvd/aps.htm, it is estimated that

92% of CFS patients has Syndrome

http://www.hemex.com/ChronicFatiguehf.pdf.

Note: APS and Syndrome is the Same thing.

The bottom line is IF YOU have Hypercoagulability or APS (which 93%

of CFIDS and Lyme and Syphillis .... then High Dose PC becomes a

Liability and Not an Asset.

Mechanism of the Antiphospholipid Antibody Syndrome:

The antiphospholipid antibody syndrome is an autoimmune phenomenon.

The immune system's function is to watch for and defend against

foreign substances in the human body (for instance, bacteria or

viruses). One component of this defence system is the antibody. An

antibody is a protein that can recognize and bind to a foreign

substance. Once it has bound to this substance, it can attract other

molecules and cells to destroy the offending molecule.

In some disease states, the immune system is not able to

differentiate between foreign invading substances and normal

components of the body; this is referred to as autoimmunity. There

are a number of well known autoimmune disorders, including systemic

lupus erythematosus, and studies on other diseases have suggested

autoimmune components in a number of other illnesses.

In the antiphospholipid antibody syndrome, the body produces

antibodies that recognize various molecules in the body that, under

normal circumstances, it would not. These molecules (phospholipids

for example) play a role in the coagulation cascade along with other

functions. The exact mechanism by which the antiphospholipid

antibodies and anticardiolipin antibodies induce thrombophilic state

is not known. A great deal of research is being done to explore the

interactions these antibodies have with the components of the

coagulation cascade and ultimately their role in the hypercoaguable

state. At this time, there are numerous theories as to how these

antibodies cause a hypercoaguable state; each of these theories has

supporting evidence and evidence that calls it into question. For

reference, a depiction of the clotting process is below.

>

>

>

> > This is of GREAT concern. One of my concerns was simply that in

> > withdrawing the blood and mixing it with the PC, they are

allowing

> > the blood time to clot--as blood does very quickly outside the

> body.

> > There was no filtering system provided as in dialysis or other

> > procedures, admittedly the blood in being " rolled " to make the

> > solution more liquid, is not outside the body for a long time,

but long enough for clots to form.

Yep ... the oil stays coated to the plastic --- which opens you up to

Staph infections. Talked with a Onocology Nurse in Chicago. They

frequently run into this problem with their Chemo patients, and have

to run a special IV through to uncoat the lines.

So anyways ... Sorry for the Long Response ... but it makes me mad

when our Medical Professionals give us wrong information.

Hope that helps to shed some light on it, Gaya.

Sincerely,

is

[Guest guest]

Thanks a lot is for this info. I dont remeber reading in kane's

book that PC causes coagulation. I thought that it was PS

(Phosphatidylserine) that causes coagulation. I have to read the book

again. Also, I need to reread your email again to understand all the

points. Thanks for taking the time to post all the information.

I hope the Kane's clinic is now realizing this problem and coming up

with an alternative method.

My doc and his nurse are not a lot familiar with this protocol. I

gave him the book and some info and requested him to do the

infusions. He talked to Kane and then agreed to do this in

his office. I had prepaid for the essential N ampules and I still

have 10 ampules left. I was thinking of doing the infusion in future

to see if it will help. Now I am not so sure if I want to do it again.

Thanks a bunch,

Gayathri.

>

> PC is absoultely not an Anticoagulant! And for those of us with

> Hypercoagulability or APS (Anti-phospholipid antibody Syndrome),

> commonly referred to as Syndrome; an infusion of high

doseage

> of PC can cause a coagulation cascade.

>

> Kane's book talks about this. Berg talks about this. And if

> you search messages in this site you will see that many of us have

> experienced it.

>

[Guest guest]

Walyme wrote:

" ...an infusion of high doseage

of PC can cause a coagulation cascade. "

bg writes: Are you sure you have not gotten this confused with

Phosphatidylserine, which can be a coagulant in those with

Antiphospholipid Antibody Syndrome ( Syndrome), and such is

stated in the Kane et al Detoxx Book about PS.

Phosphatidylcholine, to my knowledge anyway, does not have this

coagulation effect and is quite effective for detoxification of

liver sludge, toxins, etc.

bg

> > > This is of GREAT concern. One of my concerns was simply that

in

> > > withdrawing the blood and mixing it with the PC, they are

> allowing

> > > the blood time to clot--as blood does very quickly outside the

> > body.

> > > There was no filtering system provided as in dialysis or other

> > > procedures, admittedly the blood in being " rolled " to make the

> > > solution more liquid, is not outside the body for a long time,

> but long enough for clots to form.

>

> Yep ... the oil stays coated to the plastic --- which opens you up

to

> Staph infections. Talked with a Onocology Nurse in Chicago. They

> frequently run into this problem with their Chemo patients, and

have

> to run a special IV through to uncoat the lines.

>

> So anyways ... Sorry for the Long Response ... but it makes me mad

> when our Medical Professionals give us wrong information.

>

> Hope that helps to shed some light on it, Gaya.

>

> Sincerely,

> is

[Guest guest]

>

> bg writes: Are you sure you have not gotten this confused with

> Phosphatidylserine, which can be a coagulant in those with

> Antiphospholipid Antibody Syndrome ( Syndrome), and such is

> stated in the Kane et al Detoxx Book about PS.

>

> Phosphatidylcholine, to my knowledge anyway, does not have this

> coagulation effect and is quite effective for detoxification of

> liver sludge, toxins, etc.

>

> bg

>

Hi Bg:

Well ... I don't know the Science or Chemistry part -- so I can't

really debate the difference (if any) between Phosphatidylserine and

Phosphatidycholine with regards to how they interact with a APS

patient. Though in my previous long message ... PlaqueX a PC product

is known to cause thrombophlibitis - which is a good clue.

However, I had a long talk with Berg (HEMIX) on this ... and He

agreed with the the PC - APS connection.

All I know for sure is ... I was pulling 1 1/2 inch clots out of my

Hickman on a daily basis after starting PC therapy ...

And now have heart problems that I did not have before. The 5-hour

long heart events stopped after I stopped the PC therapy, and after I

went on several months of anti-coagulants.

I am sort of a 1 + 1 = 2 person.

I guess the point I was trying to make was if we have APS or

hypercoagulabilty issues ... I am not sure there has been enough

Clinic Trials on our patient population to assure our safety. But oh

well ... what else is new.

Sincerely, is

[Guest guest]

> >

> > bg writes: Are you sure you have not gotten this confused with

> > Phosphatidylserine, which can be a coagulant in those with

> > Antiphospholipid Antibody Syndrome ( Syndrome), and such

is

> > stated in the Kane et al Detoxx Book about PS.

> >

> > Phosphatidylcholine, to my knowledge anyway, does not have this

> > coagulation effect and is quite effective for detoxification of

> > liver sludge, toxins, etc.

> >

> > bg

> >

>

> Hi Bg:

>

> Well ... I don't know the Science or Chemistry part -- so I can't

> really debate the difference (if any) between Phosphatidylserine

and

> Phosphatidycholine with regards to how they interact with a APS

> patient. Though in my previous long message ... PlaqueX a PC

product

> is known to cause thrombophlibitis - which is a good clue.

>

> However, I had a long talk with Berg (HEMIX) on this ... and

He

> agreed with the the PC - APS connection.

>

> All I know for sure is ... I was pulling 1 1/2 inch clots out of

my

> Hickman on a daily basis after starting PC therapy ...

>

> And now have heart problems that I did not have before. The 5-

hour

> long heart events stopped after I stopped the PC therapy, and

after I

> went on several months of anti-coagulants.

>

> I am sort of a 1 + 1 = 2 person.

>

> I guess the point I was trying to make was if we have APS or

> hypercoagulabilty issues ... I am not sure there has been enough

> Clinic Trials on our patient population to assure our safety. But

oh

> well ... what else is new.

>

> Sincerely, is

[Guest guest]

Hi BG:

BG wrote: Because no where else have I ever read about PS being a

problem, I try to bring this to chronic illness patients'

attention.

>

Good Job BG! Thanks for sharing your story.

After I started having problems I did some research and ran across

the PS & APS connection. I would have to dig through my past

research ... but I think any phospholipid (serine or choline) could

adversely affect those of us with Undiagnosed/Diagnosed APS.

Seeing as something like 93% of CFS - Lyme folks have APS ... it's a

good bet that using PS or PC ... could be unsafe or cause us problems.

Perhaps the " hypercoagulability " we all refer to readily is really

underdiagnosed APS -- God only knows.

However, if our beloved physicians ... would test us properly, so

that when we try stuff like this .... we would be monitored

properly ... wouldn't that be a miracle!

Then there could be the possibility of using some of these things

provided that it is balanced or offset with anti-coags ... so that we

could enjoy the benefits of these types of things (PC/PS) with out

putting ourselves at risk of clotting, heart damage ... etc.

Again ... Good Job BG. Unfortunately, I don't think we are

the " exception " to the rule. But time will tell.

Sincerely,

is

[Guest guest]

is wrote:

After I started having problems I did some research and ran across

> the PS & APS connection. I would have to dig through my past

> research ... but I think any phospholipid (serine or choline)

could

> adversely affect those of us with Undiagnosed/Diagnosed APS.

bg replies:

Your APS fraternal twin here! You raised my curiosity so much

about your finding something that indicates the PC can cause

coagulation much as PS can. After several searches, I

may have found the paper you referred to. Take a look and see what

you think -- it's a ways down the article:

http://www.jrheum.com/abstracts/editorials01/694.html

Best,

bg

Because no where else have I ever read about PS being a

> problem, I try to bring this to chronic illness patients'

> attention.

> >

>

> Good Job BG! Thanks for sharing your story.

>

> After I started having problems I did some research and ran across

> the PS & APS connection. I would have to dig through my past

> research ... but I think any phospholipid (serine or choline)

could

> adversely affect those of us with Undiagnosed/Diagnosed APS.

>

> Seeing as something like 93% of CFS - Lyme folks have APS ... it's

a

> good bet that using PS or PC ... could be unsafe or cause us

problems.

>

> Perhaps the " hypercoagulability " we all refer to readily is really

> underdiagnosed APS -- God only knows.

>

> However, if our beloved physicians ... would test us properly, so

> that when we try stuff like this .... we would be monitored

> properly ... wouldn't that be a miracle!

>

> Then there could be the possibility of using some of these things

> provided that it is balanced or offset with anti-coags ... so that

we

> could enjoy the benefits of these types of things (PC/PS) with out

> putting ourselves at risk of clotting, heart damage ... etc.

>

> Again ... Good Job BG. Unfortunately, I don't think we are

> the " exception " to the rule. But time will tell.

>

> Sincerely,

> is