Liprinol and other anti-inflammatories AND cytokines vs inflammation

[Guest guest]

I was on Lyprinol in the past, but I take so many different things that I

can't afford everything I'd like to be on. I got it through my naturopath,

and it was Tyler brand. (Needs also sells it) The Lyprinol did help me, but

I take other things that seem to work better, so I dropped the things that

weren't doing as much. I would like to add Lyprinol back in, but I just

can't afford it.

I haven't tried NOW Boswellin. I used Nature's Plus and didn't have any

significant benefit from it. I took up to six capsules per day, and it

didn't seem to do anything. Perhaps it was the brand, and I haven't tried

any other brands since. I do use Curcumin from Scientific Botanicals for

blood thinning purposes, since I do have problems with blood clots. However,

I've used other NOW products, that were supposed to work, and didn't have

any benefits from them, and other brands did, so I don't use NOW brand

anymore. (I may not decided to use Nature's Plus brand any more as well) I

also avoid GNC brands for the same reason. I have some benefit from

Vitaminshoppe brand of Nettles. (GNC brand was worthless, which is one

reason I avoid GNC) But I primarily only use Nettles when I'm also using

Celebrex for pain, which has gotten more and more rare lately, as I've had

some success at controlling my pain with other things. Cherry Fruit extract,

Cetyl Myristoleate, and Samento really help my inflammation problems.

I had elevated C-Reactive Protein, elevated TNF, and elevated MMP-9 on the

tests that Shoemaker had ordered. I had slightly elevated Mylein Basic

Protein, but I had been treated with BioSET for that some months earlier and

benefited from the BioSET treatment for it, so that is also probably

somewhat skewed. (And unfortunately, Shoemaker uses the test results for

that in his research, as well)

I didn't have any other inflammatory markers tested, as far as I know. But

the elevated ones that I did have, show that I do have inflammation going

on. I wasn't on Lyprinol at the time of the tests, but had been just a few

days before. There was an ironic twist to all of this. I had stopped

Lyprinol, and most of my other supplements about two weeks before the visit

to Shoemaker's. (That's probably not a long enough time, but that's how long

my naturopath suggested. I've since learned that it can take up to six weeks

for the benefits from Lyprinol to disappear) And we had a screw up on the

blood tests, because FedEX held them over the weekend, instead of them being

sent overnight because Shoemaker's office didn't get them out in time, so I

had to have some of them done over again. But I didn't know that, and the

day after I saw Shoemaker, I started back on all my supplements, including

the Lyprinol, because I was so desperate for pain relief. So when they

called and told me that we had to do the blood tests over again, it had been

almost three weeks since seeing Shoemaker, and I had assumed that I was done

with the testing, and I only had a couple days before getting the blood

drawn for the repeat tests. So it was only a few days of being off Lyprinol.

Since Lyprinol's benefits are cumulative, and last for up to six weeks, it's

probably likely that my blood tests were all skewed.

30 minutes after I had the blood drawn, I had a series of blood vessels that

ruptured in my left hand over a period of about 20 hours that have left the

left side of my left hand with very poor circulation, and it goes numb

extremely easy. I can make it go numb just by raising my hand higher than my

elbow for several seconds. I think that the blood draw caused a clot, but I

had the blood drawn from my right arm, and the blood vessels that ruptured

were in my left hand. Kind of scary. When my doctor saw it the next day, he

thought I had broken my finger, and had it x-rayed. My little finger, and

ring finger were almost completely black, and it extended partway down into

my palm and the back of my hand. He never has taken my blood clotting

problems seriously, and he is convinced that I must have banged my hand or

something. But I did not do anything of the kind. (I get so frustrated by

the fact that doctors don't listen to me, and believe me. Even Shoemaker

didn't listen to me, completely. I told him about the ruptured blood

vessels, and he said he'd try to look into possible causes, but never got

back to me about it. The next time I talked with him, he hadn't looked into

it yet, though it was weeks later.)

I've since been taking Curcumin and Bromelain, and haven't had a repeat of

it. But I had already had blood vessels rupture on a number of other

occasions in my hands and feet, and once in my ankle. That was the worst

one, even though it wasn't as visible, because now I have problems with my

right leg swelling at the ankle, and have to wear support stockings, and

still have problems with it, and it aches like most of the time, though as

time goes on it aches a little less, and hopefully it will eventually heal.

Sometimes it swells twice as big as the other ankle. The doctor thinks that

the swelling is from hypoxia, both from the blood vessels rupturing, but

also because I have undersized red blood cells and too few red blood cells.

He thinks its from infection, but didn't know what type of infection might

cause that. I asked him it Lyme could cause it, and he didn't know. (I've

since found out that ehrlichia can cause undersized red blood cells, but

haven't been tested for it)

I think that the curcumin and bromelain are helping with my blood clotting

problems, but I think I need to do more, because from time to time I still

have the throbbing pain that preceded the ruptured blood vessels in the

past. Especially when I do FIR sauna's. I've heard form someone else who had

increased hypercoagulation problems from FIR sauna's, and I think that's

probably why I've had such difficulties tolerating them in the past, as

well. I can't take Natokinaise because of the bee products in it, and I have

considered Lumbrokinaise, but like I said, I've reached my limit on what I

can afford. I keep hoping that if I can reduce the infections I will be able

to reduce the hypercoagulation problems. But as you can see, I am more

concerned about getting blood clots than of bleeding to death. I don't have

a problem with bleeding. When I have blood drawn, I seldomly every bleed

from it.

I live in a small rural community, and the medical care in this area is

horrible. I don't have doctors I can go to who will refer me to specialists

somewhere else. I haven't had luck with traveling out of state to see Dr.

Brewer or Dr. Shoemaker, because they also failed to run the tests that I

asked them to, and failed to follow through with looking for causes of my

symptoms. And without a doctor to order the tests, I have to try to figure

things out based on the few tests I've had in the past and the symptoms I

have. Frustrating. It is horrible that doctor access and money are the

limiting factors in my ability to get better. We spend fully half our income

on my medical care, and most of what I do isn't covered by my insurance for

one reason or another. But that's a whole other story. It's going to be a

while before we can afford for me to go out of state again to see an LLMD,

but I am beginning to consider this more and more, even though the nearest

LLMD is more than a day's drive away.

As far as cytokines being in reference range, the reference ranges for MMP-9

are not set because it is an experimental test. At least that's what

Shoemaker told me. Any amount of MMP-9 would be considered elevated, because

it normally isn't present. C-Reactive protein is also not supposed to be

present, so any amount of C-Reactive protein would be considered a sign of

inflammation, even though they give a reference range on the lab test. Since

cytokines are an indication of inflammation, I would think that would be

evidence that the antibiotics you were taking were doing something other

than lowering inflammation. Some years ago I had a lot of joint pain and

inflammation, and went to a Rheumatologist who tested my C-Reactive protein

levels, and at that time I didn't have any C-Reactive Protein, but

definitely had inflammation. So I think it is possible to have normal levels

of cytokines and still have inflammation.

Have you considered trying a different brand of boswellin that doesn't have

tumeric in it? That would avoid the problem of bleeding too easily, I would

think. I think that the brands that I tried probably weren't the greatest,

and it is so hard to tell whether something is going to be an acceptable

quality or not, but I'd rather try something inexpensive if I can, because

of money problems. I can trust the things I get through my naturopath. But

she doesn't carry boswellin, and she charges a lot for things. But I can't

always trust things from other sources that are supposed to be good quality.

Paying more for something doesn't mean that it's worth something, but my

naturopath is very quality conscious, so I trust her judgment on things. I

just can't always afford to buy things through her. I've had so many

problems with GNC brands to the point where I won't buy them at all. I've

had good luck using Vitaminshoppe brand, and they've had a good reputation

from Consumer Reports on the things that Consumer Reports has tested on. But

they don't have their own brand of boswellin. And I already take curcumin,

so I don't want to take more. And I prefer to stick with the brand of

curcumin that I'm on. For now I've side-tabled boswellin.

I'm trying DMSO occasionally, in very small amounts, topically, for pain,

and I've also started using colloidal silver. If the silver helps, I'll get

my own CS generator eventually, if and when I can afford it. Buying CS is

pretty costly, so I'd rather buy my own generator. I've been on it for 5

days, and had some improvement. But as to whether the improvement will stay,

or is just because I started back on TF about the same time, I'll have to

wait and see.

lindaj@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/19/04 11:22:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,

writes:

Have you considered trying a different brand of boswellin that doesn't have

tumeric in it?

i should go ahead and do this and get it over with. i have tumeric by itself

and so if boswellic acid by itself doesn't work then i can take tumeric by

itself and see if it works too. i just mention NOW brand b/c it is only one

that for me and a few others it worked, even though (and i haven't done this

yet)

boswellic acid by itself did not work.

as for C-Reactive Protein, mine is 0.2 mg/L in range of 0.0-4.9. so even

though my IL-6 and TNF are fine the fact that I have any C-Reactive Protein and

MMP-9 at all is sign of inflammation? the latter two are cytokines or some

markers of inflammation? thanks.

jason