Re: Low Carb Diet for Vegetarians

[Guest guest]

So how do vegetarians keep a low carb hi protien diet for CFS? I eat alot of

almonds but worry about counteracting lysine, and Amy;s frozen rice and bean

burritos, veggie burgers, goat yoghurt and Ezekiel bread which is supposed

to be high protein for bread. Is it bad for Candida? I am eating more eggs

since hearing about the high protein needs, and some salmon burgers. Not a

true vegetarian but if I prepare fish or any meat quickly become nauseated by

it all. Also almost a scoop of Immunepro. Does anyone have suggestions?

Thank you, kathy

[Guest guest]

There was discussion sometime around a year ago about people who felt ill

(nauseated) by eating meat. You might be able to find some info in the

archives.

Doris

Not a

true vegetarian but if I prepare fish or any meat quickly become nauseated by

it all.

[Guest guest]

I was a vegetarian for 25 years, and found it almost impossible to be low

carb on a vegetarian diet, even though I had become very knowledgeable about

nutrition over the years, and even helped to teach nutrition classes for

vegetarians. Protein foods like beans and nuts are high carbohydrate. So are

almonds, by the way. Things like soy milk are terribly high carbohydrate

because of the added sweeteners. And so many vegetarian dishes substitute

carbohydrate rich foods for some of the protein of meat dishes. For example,

instead of meat loaf, there are vegetarian loaves that use a lot of grain or

cereal in them, seeds and nuts that have a lot of carbohydrates, and then

something to bind it together that sometimes includes flour, or other high

carbohydrate binders.

It was easier to focus on low glycemic index foods on a vegetarian diet,

rather than low carbohydrate. Because at least there are some low glycemic

index foods that are still high carbohydrate. Aside from eggs and eating

allot of cheese, it gets really tough to be low carbohydrate. I found it to

be almost impossible to eat an anti-candida diet as a vegetarian, because so

many of the high protein foods are also high carb and high sugar content.

And eating lots of eggs and cheese as the primary proteins can end up

causing food allergies to them. The foods you mentioned, although they are

supposed to be high protein, they are also high carbohydrate.

I finally gave up and started eating meat.

You might consider that you aren't producing enough hydrochloric acid, or

have sufficient digestive enzymes, both of which can be taken as supplements

to solve the nausea problem. (Actually, I found that Deglycerizinated

Licorice Extract helped me deal with nausea, which was being caused by

increased stomach acid to digest the harder to digest proteins of meat) But

nausea can also be caused by food allergies. And if you have leaky gut

problems, it makes sense that the high protein foods would be most likely to

trigger an allergic response, since the cause of allergies is undigested

proteins being able to get into the blood stream. (there can also be

intolerances, but with leaky gut, allergies are a major problem) In my case,

I've used BioSET to help correct the food allergies so I wouldn't have to be

so obsessive about avoiding specific foods. Many people do avoidance diets.

But it's really hard to do when you're already limiting food choices by

being a vegetarian. The more you limit food choices, the harder it gets to

prevent new food allergies from forming, because you end up eating the same

foods more frequently. The more a food is eaten, the more likely you are to

develop an allergy to it.

There are only a few grams of protein in a scoop of ImmunePro, so I don't

consider it to be a good source of protein if you are doing a high

protein/low carb diet. I did find a muscle building whey formula that is

really packed with protein made by Healthy N' Fit International, called 100%

Whey Pro-Amino, that has 45 grams of protein per scoop, and is sweetened

with stevia, so it is low carb. It isn't a substitute for ImmunePro, but it

is a very high protein/low carbohydrate food that a vegetarian could eat to

help meet protein needs.

lindaj@...

Re: Low Carb Diet for Vegetarians

> So how do vegetarians keep a low carb hi protien diet for CFS? I eat alot

of

> almonds but worry about counteracting lysine, and Amy;s frozen rice and

bean

> burritos, veggie burgers, goat yoghurt and Ezekiel bread which is

supposed

> to be high protein for bread. Is it bad for Candida? I am eating more

eggs

> since hearing about the high protein needs, and some salmon burgers. Not a

> true vegetarian but if I prepare fish or any meat quickly become nauseated

by

> it all. Also almost a scoop of Immunepro. Does anyone have suggestions?

> Thank you, kathy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/1/2004 12:59:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,

lindaj@... writes:

> And from what I've now read, neurological problems in vegetarian

> and vegan children occur at a higher percentage than among meat eaters

Would you please cite these if they are scientific articles. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

I was a vegetarian for 15 years. I started eating meat a few years ago when

I kept seeing a common thread on this list and elsewhere in the CFIDS

community -- that a disproportionately high number of us were vegetarians when

we got

sick. I find this disturbing, and I think Rich's explanation does the best

job of capturing why it might be true. However, I still really don't crave

meat. Even though I take Betaine HCL to aid in the digestion, I find that I do

better with eggs and other alternate sources of protein. I do eat meat though,

and I agree that red meat -- used somewhat sparingly, because more doesn't

seem to be better -- always gives energy. I eat chicken pretty regularly now,

with less frequent doses of beef.

I was completely grossed out when I started eating meat, so I understand

anyone's hesitation. Because vegetarianism was a conscience issue for me, I

still

feel a lot more comfortable eating free range chickens and humanely raised

beef. When it grossed me out, I simply thought of it as taking medicine and

forced it down.

Peggy

[Guest guest]

Hi, rhoodwhite and the group.

On the question of eating meat in CFS vs. eating a vegetarian diet

plus eggs and milk-based products, yes, you would be getting the

same amino acids as if you ate meat. However, I think it's

important to note that the total quantity of protein one eats is

also important. Meat is a very concentrated source of protein, so

having meat in the diet tends to raise the total protein intake on

the average.

It also seems to be beneficial to many PWCs to minimize their

carbohydrate intake, especially sugars and starches, which are found

in many plant-based foods.

I can't speak for Mike C., but perhaps he was addressing those who

eat only plant-based food. In that case, it is more difficult to

achieve a high protein, low carbohydrate diet, because of the

composition of plant foods. In addition, some essential nutrients

are particularly likely to be low in a diet that is entirely plant-

based. Vitamin B-12 is probably the one that shows up to be

deficient first on such a diet, but there are others that are

difficult to get in sufficient amounts from plants as well.

Cysteine is an amino acid that is not found in high amounts in plant-

based protein, and it is usually the rate-limiting amino acid for

making glutathione in the body. I believe that glutathione

depletion is one of the central issues in the pathogenesis of CFS

for many or most PWCs.

Many PWCs do not metabolize carbohydrates well, but most are able to

use protein well. I think this is a result of partial blockades in

the Krebs cycles of the red, " slow-twitch, type I skeletal muscle

cells, and perhaps other types of cells as well, resulting from

glutathione depletion and the rise of peroxynitrite.

Carbohydrates must enter the Krebs cycle upstream of the first

blockade. On the other hand, protein supplies amino acids, which

can be interconverted to some extent with the help of vitamin B-6,

magnesium, and other cofactors. Some of the resulting amino acids

can enter the Krebs cycle downstream of the blockades. I think this

the reason protein can be utilized better by PWCs.

Carbohydrates, on the other hand, get trapped cycling between lactic

acid or pyruvate and glucose. If more glucose is added by consuming

carbohydrates, the pancreas is forced to raise insulin to the point

that the excess glucose is converted to stored fat, producing weight

gain. The high insulin surges can then be followed by

hypoglycemia. This is called reactive hypoglycemia. Until a way is

found to get rid of the partial blockades by raising the glutathione

back up (which is difficult because of vicious circles that develop

over the course of time the PWC is ill), it's best to emphasize a

high protein, low carbohydrate diet, and eating meat will help to

achieve this.

Rich

> In a message dated 1/31/2004 9:18:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> yakcamp22@a... writes:

>

> > For all you 'vegies', get off your high horse and try

some " flesh " ,

> > you may really like it *and* your body may need it.

> >

>

> Could you please explain to me how the amino acids found

in " flesh " are

> different from the amino acids which you can obtain in eating

complementary

> proteins (plant based + eggs + milk-based products)? Also, please

explain to me why

> you *believe* that vegetarians are on a " high horse " ?????

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think because they are much closer to our own tissues. Probably having the

different amino's in the correct proportions makes a difference.

But we are very pragmatic here; the most important thing we get here are the

collective results of experiments we do on ourselves. (It's a rough kind of

science we are doing.) And the consensus says flesh works better.

Inquiring minds often like to know why, but it isn't always necessary, nor

possible. Maybe Rich or someone more biochemically hip than me will have a

technical answer for you.

In my case, I tried doing fowl and a little fish only. I did poorly. I didn't

know what was wrong, but one day I gave into the craving for a burger and wowie;

like being shot from guns. My experiments turned in the direction of burgers (so

to speak). I found I needed some about every 10 days, but that if I ate beef

too often I got heavy and sluggish.I have no idea why it needed to be red meat:

who cares, I do what works.

Nowadays I have been eating buffalo meat (VERY lean) and I discover I can eat it

even more often than I was eating beef before (w.out getting sluggish-and w.out

the fat), and my energy/endurance is going up!

As for high horses, I apologize on behalf of my colleague. Please, let's get

well together.

Adrienne

Re: Re: Low Carb Diet for Vegetarians

In a message dated 1/31/2004 9:18:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,

yakcamp22@... writes:

> For all you 'vegies', get off your high horse and try some " flesh " ,

> you may really like it *and* your body may need it.

>

Could you please explain to me how the amino acids found in " flesh " are

different from the amino acids which you can obtain in eating complementary

proteins (plant based + eggs + milk-based products)? Also, please explain to

me why

you *believe* that vegetarians are on a " high horse " ?????

[Guest guest]

Because of the metabolic problems, I think that there are other amino acids

besides cysteine that might be low. Taurine is an example of an amino acid

that is not essential for most people, but for me seems to be essential, and

I have to supplement. There can also be problems metabolizing things like

Omega 3 oils from plant sources, or synthesizing Vitamin A from beta

carotene. Another thing that might be in short supply might be steric acid,

which is a primary source of energy for the heart, found in beef. I've

always had abnormally low cholesterol, and I seem to benefit from eating a

high cholesterol diet, especially in light of using things to help detox

that also deplete cholesterol. Since the neurotoxins get bound with

cholesterol and excreted with bile, it seems that having abnormally low

cholesterol levels might restrict the ability to get rid of the neurotoxins.

And a vegan diet tends to lower cholesterol levels even more.

lindaj@...

[Guest guest]

Since you asked for it, you got it:

Unfortunately, the amino acids found in plants don't include some amino

acids that the body might otherwise synthesize, but in PWC's, those amino

acids may not be readily synthesized because of metabolic problems, poor

digestion, anaerobic metabolism, etc. Taurine is a prime example. It is not

found in plant sources, and is often deficient in PWC's. Many other

non-essential amino acids may also be in short supply in PWC's. So eating a

plant based diet, which might be sufficient for a normal, healthy person,

may not be sufficient for a PWC, and may actually be downright harmful.

This may explain the research on the Halaleujia diet that found that it

benefited about 1/3 of people with FM, (which they tend to focus on, and use

as a reason to promote it's use for everyone with FM) didn't do anything

beneficial or harmful to about 1/3, and made approximately 1/3 worse. It

clearly was not meeting the nutritional needs of the 1/3 that were harmed by

it, even though it is claimed to be a complete and balanced diet. And many

of the people who were on the diet, claimed they struggled with food

cravings, which might indicate they were not getting as much nutrition as

their body would have liked, even if it was sufficient for basic needs. Not

to mention that when the study was over, none of the subjects remained on

the diet, including the ones that were helped by it. But what they don't

generally publicize, is that many of the test subjects didn't fit the

diagnosis of FM at the time of the study. In all likelihood, they were the

ones who benefited from the diet, or weren't harmed by it, because they in

fact didn't actually have FM. (Kind of reminds me of how Wessley skews

research by including subjects that don't actually have CFS)Doesn't say much

for the Halaleujia diet. Since FM and CFS have a lot of overlap, I think

there is also a lot of overlap of PWC's who also don't benefit from a vegan

diet, and are actually harmed by it. But it's really hard to tell without

having unbiased research done.

And then there are the people who genetically lack the ability to metabolize

plant based Omega 3 oils, such as coastal Native Americans, Japanese,

Norwegians, etc. Over the centuries, they lost the ability to metabolize

Omega 3s from plant sources because their fish-based diets were so high in

Omega 3s that they didn't need to metabolize it from plant sources. Up to 5%

of the population lacks the genetics to metabolize Omega 3 fats from plant

sources. So consuming a plant based diet may be detrimental to their health

in the long run.

And having been a vegetarian for 25 years, I have to agree that most

vegetarians are on a high horse, believing that their diet is somehow

superior to meat eaters, and assuming that everyone should be vegetarian.

There is a vegetarian propaganda war going on. Many vegetarians treat meat

eaters like they have no will power, and that they just have bad character,

or like it is something criminal to eat meat. They treat meat eaters as

though eating meat causes an increase in aggression. (There is actually

evidence to suggest that the opposite is true, and aggression in vegans

increases with each passing generation, and neurological disorders increase

in each passing generation, according to one research abstract that I read)

There are religious agendas, a lot of misinformation being circulated as

fact, and a general blindness to research that contradicts their beliefs

that everyone should be vegetarian. The propaganda is so pervasive that it

is often hard to weed out propaganda from facts. And all too often, they

present propaganda as fact, and use bad research to support their views. I

know, because I've been a part of the vegetarian high horse crowd. And

having been indoctrinated in it for so many years, and then discovering the

truth, that a vegetarian diet is not always beneficial, I've had to come

down off my high horse.

It's interesting that the shortest lived people on the planet are vegans (in

southern India), and the longest lived people on the planet include meat in

their diet. (Okinawa and Hunza) And it's interesting that most of the time,

when one reads research that supposedly supports a vegetarian diet, instead

of comparing it to say, an Okinawa diet, it compares it to a Traditional

Western Diet, that is notoriously bad. Even meat eaters know that a

traditional Western Diet is bad, and most people try to eat more healthy.

But a traditional Western diet is far more than just eating meat.

If a vegetarian diet can't stand up to the best diets, than it hardly merits

the support that it garners from the crowds of vegetarians who are

indoctrinated by it. Eating meat doesn't mean that you have to eat deep fat

fried foods fried in hydrogenated fats, and high in processed sugar and

deplete of nutrients. But the vegetarian propaganda makes it sound like

that's what they assume of meat eaters.

Ironically, many of the foods that are often substituted for protein in a

vegetarian diet, can cause imbalances in Lysine, or have other problems.

Soy, for example, is probably not a good food for men or growing boys to eat

because of the estrogen-like chemicals it contains, not to mention that it

contains chemicals that can cause neurodegeneration over time. (The higher

the soy consumption, especially of non-fermented sources of soy, the earlier

the development of neurodegenerative disorders like Alzheimer's and

Parkinson's) And that's not even getting into the problems with GMO's,

hydrolyzed plant proteins that often develop MSG in the process, but aren't

labeled as having MSG, etc. Since the farming industry has begun latching

onto the promotion of soy, a lot of the problems with it have sort of been

pushed into the shadows. It's now become a matter of economy and money, and

we no longer get the truth. Soy is big business.

Vegetarians often cite the use of antibiotics and pollutants in meat

products, but they often overlook organic meat, and ignore the high levels

of pollutants on plant crops. I remember when they used to claim that a

vegetarian diet was less expensive than a meat based diet. It's not. I

remember reading an article that was done back in the 50's, that was

promoting soy in the diet, and tried to convince the reader that Eskimo's,

which ate a high meat diet, were somehow inferior to people, with inferior

intellect, inferior moral values, lazy, etc. I was appalled at how skewed it

was. It was downright racist, and didn't fit what I've learned about the

Eskimo's at all. The vegetarian propaganda tactics may have changed over the

years, but I don't think they have gotten any better. They still cover

things up, twist things, promote only what supports their views.

It's impossible to have a self-sustaining farm that avoids the use of

chemical fertilizers without using animal based products. Animal based

products in organic farming are common. So eating organic produce doesn't

prevent you from being outside of the ring of animal production farming. So

vegetarian diets don't benefit the ecosystem the way they are claimed to.

It's all a bunch of propaganda, and it's being driven by people whose

religious beliefs don't allow them to eat meat, or animal rights activists

who will do or say anything to try to stop animal husbandry.

I know that in my family, the vegetarians for years have been condescending

to the meat eaters. The denomination that I attended for years was rather

condescending to meat eaters, and attempted to make them feel that eating

meat would make them loose out on heaven. (Never a mention of the fact that

Jesus ate meat) There was a lot of denial that they were doing this to the

general public, but you couldn't help be aware of it, every potluck after

church, if someone brought a meat dish, it was like a gossip excuse to

ostracize that person. And it was like that in every single church that I

attended, over the years, so it wasn't just an isolated thing. And people

quickly learned that if they wanted to be accepted, they had to conform to

the vegetarian agenda.

Having said all that, like I said, I was a vegetarian for many years. I

raised my children as vegetarians. When my son was 2 1/2, he began to have

seizures. We went through all kinds of tests, and all kinds of medications,

trying to figure out what the cause of his seizures was, and trying to get

control of the seizures. The medications that we tried caused terrible side

effects. One made him so doped up that all he could do was sleep or lay,

listless, unfocused, and hardly aware of what was going on around him. One

made him literally bounce off the walls, squawking like a chicken for 24

hours. We tried a dozen different medications, each one worse than the one

before, and none of them completely effective at controlling his seizures.

The one that worked the best for him, and had the least side effects, caused

him to have oppositional defiance behavior and hyperactivity. And it was

hard to have him go from a very sweet and well behaved little boy to an

angry aggressive little monster. It was a horrendous experience for him to

get his blood drawn every week to test medication levels in his blood and

liver enzymes, and having to put him through having blood drawn every week

was a nightmare. He would have nightmares every night and wake screaming,

and I'd have to console him, and he'd tell me that he was dreaming that they

were stabbing him with needles. That's not the kind of thing that a toddler

should have to deal with. Ultimately, it was discovered that he didn't

synthesize taurine very well. And because taurine is not present in

sufficient amounts in dairy and eggs, even though we were including those in

his diet in more than sufficient amounts to provide for his other protein

needs, it wasn't enough to make up for his taurine deficiency. I feel that

he might not have developed epilepsy if it hadn't been for the fact that we

were eating a vegetarian diet. And it's not like I was somehow just really

bad at balancing a vegetarian diet. It's something that I spent a

considerable amount of time studying, and I was a perfectionist about doing

and very actively studied. I even helped to teach classes on vegetarianism.

But a vegetarian diet wasn't meeting his needs for high quality protein. I

started him on taurine supplements, and immediately it began controlling his

seizures, and we were able to drop the seizure medication, and he returned

to his very mellow personality. He hasn't had another seizure since. But he

likely wouldn't have developed epilepsy at all if he hadn't been a

vegetarian. And from what I've now read, neurological problems in vegetarian

and vegan children occur at a higher percentage than among meat eaters. I

wish I had known what I know now back then. But unfortunately, it's a

propaganda war, and that would make a vegetarian diet look bad. So it's not

something you normally hear from people who promote vegetarian diets.

At least CFS doesn't have religious fanatics behind it. It may seem so at

times, because the fanatics that promote psychologizing of CFS are just

that; fanatics. But believe me, religious fanatics are worse. You can't

reason with them at all. Anything that you use that is truth is heresy, as

far as they're concerned, no matter how well it might be supported by

scientific research. Even science is not believed by some of them.

How's that for high horse stuff?

lindaj@...

Re: Re: Low Carb Diet for Vegetarians

> Could you please explain to me how the amino acids found in " flesh " are

> different from the amino acids which you can obtain in eating

complementary

> proteins (plant based + eggs + milk-based products)? Also, please explain

to me why

> you *believe* that vegetarians are on a " high horse " ?????

[Guest guest]

I can't even begin to dig them up. I read them a few years back in doing

Internet searches. I didn't book mark them. I don't have the energy to go

digging around and searching for them. They're long gone, and who knows

where to begin to look for it. I remember reading about it in a study that

involved people who had been using the Hallelujia diet for multiple

generations, and that might be a place to start. But I'm not in a condition

right not to take my valuable energy and time to put into digging it up.

I do have a couple sites that I bookmarked, and here they are. I don't

remember whether or not the research on increased neurological problems in

successive generations of vegans is among them. But there is a fair amount

of information about the myths of vegetarianism on these sites, and they do

include references to actual research studies:

http://www.chetday.com/b12.html

http://www.powerhealth.net/selected_articles.htm

What I don't understand, is that when someone else makes claims about

something, I don't expect them to post the exact sources that they got their

information from. I go out and dig around myself, and try to see if what

they say is true, or if there is contradicting evidence.

But inevitably, when I say something that I've read, people assume that I

bookmark everything, and keep an exact record of everything I've learned

over the years. That would literally be impossible, because I've read tens

of thousands of research abstracts. I've read thousands of books, many of

which I no longer own, because I wouldn't have room in my house for all of

them. And many of the web sites that I've used in the past for information

are no longer there. Web searches don't turn up the same sources every time.

Some web sites have moved, others have disappeared. And so to try to

research where I learned something, would probably take me hours to do, and

I just don't have the ability to do that right now.

And yet people expect me to do their work for them, and go look up things

that are going to take me countless hours, and use up what little energy I

have to satisfy their smugness that they don't believe what I've said. You

don't have to believe anything I've said, if you don't want to. But if you

don't learn to research things for yourself, and expect other people to do

it for you, you will always get a one sided view of things. And in the

process of trying to search out the information for yourself, you'll learn a

lot in the process.

I'm having a really negative response to phosphatidyl choline. My naturopath

wanted me to try it, and I've been taking small doses of it this past week.

I was hoping that because it is a part of the Kane detoxification protocol,

it would do me some good. Instead it is making me extremely irritable,

stirring up panic attack problems again, and making all my symptoms flare up

worse than ever. So I'm in the middle of a big time crash. I've stopped

taking it, but the symptoms haven't calmed down yet. So please forgive me if

I sound rude, or angry. I'm really not myself right now. And I probably

shouldn't even be posting at all. I've noticed that one of the signs that

I'm crashing is that I'm more likely to post, and my posts end up being long

and rambling. Normally I try to keep my mouth shut, because inevitably it

stirs up someone who wants to attack what I say, and I really don't need

that kind of stress. And when I crash, I don't think through things as well,

and am more likely to respond without thinking. And every time it opens up a

can of worms that starts some sort of war, and I get backchanneled with

personal and very rude attacks. I think that I'm not the only PWC who

responds without thinking about what kind of response we'll get back. But

right now I'm too foggy minded to think about it.

lindaj@...

Re: Re: Low Carb Diet for Vegetarians

> In a message dated 2/1/2004 12:59:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> lindaj@... writes:

>

> > And from what I've now read, neurological problems in vegetarian

> > and vegan children occur at a higher percentage than among meat eaters

>

> Would you please cite these if they are scientific articles. Thanks.