Re: Scientists will discuss CFS in secret

[Guest guest]

Hi, all.

I think there is some very good news in this story. See below.

> For instance, an excess of free radicals - which are the

> damaging by-products of energy production in the body that

> have to be mopped up by antioxidants- can cause damage to

> blood vessels and make circulation poorer. One of the Dundee

> studies has found signs that free radical activity is up by 40 per

> cent in the blood of CFS patients.

This result should help to focus attention on glutathione depletion

in CFS. The Dundee group was the first to publish results of

glutathione measurements in CFS, and their results showed

statistical significance at the p=0.05 level, which is good enough

for me.

>

> Another research project by the team found that, uniquely, the

> blood vessels of CFS patients were unusually sensitive to an

> important transmitter in the nervous system called acetylcholine

> that affects blood-vessel walls. An abnormal response to

> acetylcholine has already been linked with Alzheimer's.

This is also a very interesting result. I'm not sure how it ties in

with the late Dr. Streeten's work yet. He found that these

blood vessels are also very sensitive to norepinephrine.

>

> " We've found that over 50 per cent of people with CFS/ME have

> low-normal or below-normal red blood cell volume, " says

> Professor Barry Hurwitz. " This is something that is usually

> missed by standard blood tests and it tells me that there is

> something really physically wrong with them. "

This is another very interesting result. I don't think that just

using Procrit is the best way to deal with this, though. It would

be better to figure out why this is happening. I doubt if it's due

to a defect in the ability to produce erythropoetin (Procrit is a

shorter, synthetic version of this natural substance produced by the

kidneys.) More work needs to be done to figure out why the red

blood cell volume is low.

>

> Using a high-tech, micro-array chip that can scan blood to check

> for the activity levels of 10,000 genes, the scientists analysed

> samples from 25 CFS/ME patients from an NHS unit in the

> South of England, which they compared with 60 normal blood

> donors.

>

>

> " We found that between 30 and 50 genes were either more

> active or less active than usual among the patients, " says Dr

> Keer, of the National Heart and Lung Institute, Imperial

> College, London. " We are going to have to double check it, of

> course, but already we can definitely say that many of the genes

> that show up are involved with the immune system. "

It's nice to see another group reporting results on gene expression

in CFS. Having several groups working on it will really stimulate

progress, because of the natural human tendency toward competition.

Also, it will be possible to see if the results are replicable very

rapidly. Also, the groups can be synergistic; i.e., what one

doesn't think of, another might, and they will be hearing each

other's results from conferences and journals. This gene expression

in CFS research field should move fast now.

I think this Dundee group is doing some good things. I hope people

won't think badly of them for holding a conference that isn't

public. It sounds as though the social climate for holding a meeting

over there is very difficult, with people being so polarized about

the cause of ME.

Rich

[Guest guest]

>

>

> > For instance, an excess of free radicals - which are the

> > damaging by-products of energy production in the body that

> > have to be mopped up by antioxidants- can cause damage to

> > blood vessels and make circulation poorer. One of the Dundee

> > studies has found signs that free radical activity is up by 40 per

> > cent in the blood of CFS patients.

>

> This result should help to focus attention on glutathione depletion

> in CFS. The Dundee group was the first to publish results of

> glutathione measurements in CFS, and their results showed

> statistical significance at the p=0.05 level, which is good enough

> for me. Rich

Rich, I agree with you about the significance of these findings. I

wanted to focus on the one about free radical activity being up 40%

in our blood. I remember Pall saying one time the B-12 is a

great scavenger of free radicals and perhaps that is why it works.

Would taking other anti-oxidants such as Co Q10, Vitamins C & E,

alpha lipoic acid and others, help decrease the free radicals in our

blood? And if they did, would this probably result in us feeling

better?

Bob

[Guest guest]

I like this piece too and thank you for posting it.

Genes operate in a range. You can change the activity of the genes

that control the expression of various metabolites of estrogen in

just a few weeks by adding a lot more broccoli to the diet. So these

overactive and underactive genes are, to me, still a result of

underlying infection and toxicity. It seems to me that they will have

a hard time pinpointing hard genetic factors as in, people are born

with this propensity. Perhaps, but I think it is more likely

environmental (you don't find much correlation in, for example, MS

between twins). I would like to see that addressed but I'm glad

anything at all is being addressed.

[Guest guest]

Bob,

Yes, antioxidants should help, but the most fundamental thing is to

restore the glutathione level, since glutathione is the basis of the

antioxidant enzyme system in the body.

Rich

> >

> >

> > > For instance, an excess of free radicals - which are the

> > > damaging by-products of energy production in the body that

> > > have to be mopped up by antioxidants- can cause damage to

> > > blood vessels and make circulation poorer. One of the Dundee

> > > studies has found signs that free radical activity is up by 40

per

> > > cent in the blood of CFS patients.

> >

> > This result should help to focus attention on glutathione

depletion

> > in CFS. The Dundee group was the first to publish results of

> > glutathione measurements in CFS, and their results showed

> > statistical significance at the p=0.05 level, which is good

enough

> > for me. Rich

>

> Rich, I agree with you about the significance of these findings. I

> wanted to focus on the one about free radical activity being up

40%

> in our blood. I remember Pall saying one time the B-12 is a

> great scavenger of free radicals and perhaps that is why it works.

> Would taking other anti-oxidants such as Co Q10, Vitamins C & E,

> alpha lipoic acid and others, help decrease the free radicals in

our

> blood? And if they did, would this probably result in us feeling

> better?

>

> Bob

[Guest guest]

> Hi, all.

>

> I think there is some very good news in this story. See below.

>

>

Hi Rich

Can you explain how any of this fits in with the low output of

cortisol in so many people with CFS/ME?

Many thanks

Pam

[Guest guest]

> Bob,

>

> Yes, antioxidants should help, but the most fundamental thing is

to

> restore the glutathione level, since glutathione is the basis of

the

> antioxidant enzyme system in the body.

>

> Rich

>

Hi Rich

Would this do anything to stop the drop in bp that I get on exercise

because of loosing salt and the electrolyte balance?

Pam

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...>

" Yes, antioxidants should help, but the most fundamental thing is to

restore the glutathione level, since glutathione is the basis of the

antioxidant enzyme system in the body. "

It's not an either/or situation, Rich, it's both...and...I'm sure you

realise this but some readers might not.

Antioxidants compliment each other in forming the so-called electron

bucket-brigades and also spare each other.

Rob

[Guest guest]

Pam,

I'm not sure there is a direct connection here. I think the low

output of cortisol is caused by problems in the hypothalamus, and I

don't yet understand what causes them.

Rich

> > Hi, all.

> >

> > I think there is some very good news in this story. See below.

> >

> >

> Hi Rich

>

> Can you explain how any of this fits in with the low output of

> cortisol in so many people with CFS/ME?

>

> Many thanks

>

> Pam

[Guest guest]

Pam,

I don't see how it would directly, but perhaps it would help

indirectly, for example if oxidizing free radicals are involved in

producing these effects. Sorry, I just don't understand the whole

story yet.

Rich

> > Bob,

> >

> > Yes, antioxidants should help, but the most fundamental thing is

> to

> > restore the glutathione level, since glutathione is the basis of

> the

> > antioxidant enzyme system in the body.

> >

> > Rich

> >

> Hi Rich

>

> Would this do anything to stop the drop in bp that I get on

exercise

> because of loosing salt and the electrolyte balance?

>

> Pam

[Guest guest]

I'm very excited about what might be discussed during the conference this

weekend. I've had CFS for about 12 years now and during this time I have

spent an enormous effort in trying to learn everything i could about this

devastating illness. A couple years ago, I developed a hypothesis for CFS on

which i have continued to work during those brief periods of time when i've

been well enough and not to overwhelmed with just simply surviving my

illness. The basic structure of my hypothesis came together after two different

research papers were published early in 2001 that both indirectly pointed to a

specific oxidative element found in the blood of patients with CFS. It was this

oxidative element that helped me account for an area of the illness--depletion

and oxidation of lipids and in particular arachidonic acid--that i had spent a

great deal of time exploring(among many areas of the illness) and which i feel

is important in understanding many of the disrupted biological pathways

found in CFS. What excites me about the workshop this weekend, titled " New

Developments in the Biology of CFS " , is that the research team and host of

this conference have recently (over the past several months) put out, what i

consider, important research. This research includes findings of elevated

levels of isoprostanes in the blood of CFS. Isoprostanes (which are derived

from arachidonic acid ) are a key element in my hypothesis and an area that i

could only speculate on since no previous research had specifically

measured their levels in patients. What could be discussed during the

conference? I can only hope that they begin by discussing how isoprostanes

effect blood volume, vasoconstriction, and other areas of the vascular system.

My goal this summer(actually more like the past year and a half) has been to

put together a report that i could give to my doctor in Houston, which would

include my hypothesis for CFS and at least one pharmalogical approach in

treating a disrupted physiological process in CFS patients. The summer is

over and as usual my situation is making completion difficult. I only wish i

could be as helpful, as clear, and as concise as Rich's every day postings.

I hope my report will shed some light on these and other areas of CFS:

glutathione depleation

Nk cell and immune disruptions

Gh release and cortisol release

Citrate to Isocitrate disruption

Blood volume, vasoconstriction and the release of AVP

Red Blood Cells damage and destruction

LMW Rnase-L

> > > Bob,

> > >

> > > Yes, antioxidants should help, but the most fundamental thing is

> > to

> > > restore the glutathione level, since glutathione is the basis of

> > the

> > > antioxidant enzyme system in the body.

> > >

> > > Rich

> > >

> > Hi Rich

> >

> > Would this do anything to stop the drop in bp that I get on

> exercise

> > because of loosing salt and the electrolyte balance?

> >

> > Pam

[Guest guest]

I hope to post, whatever i end up with, on this message board soon.

Hopefully it will be helpful.

Bobko

[Guest guest]

Dear pb0bk0,

I'm glad to hear about your work on a CFS hypothesis, and will be

interested to read about it when you are able to get it written up.

I, too, hope some good things happen at the conference in Dundee.

Rich

> > > > Bob,

> > > >

> > > > Yes, antioxidants should help, but the most fundamental

thing is

> > > to

> > > > restore the glutathione level, since glutathione is the

basis of

> > > the

> > > > antioxidant enzyme system in the body.

> > > >

> > > > Rich

> > > >

> > > Hi Rich

> > >

> > > Would this do anything to stop the drop in bp that I get on

> > exercise

> > > because of loosing salt and the electrolyte balance?

> > >

> > > Pam