Re: Why are liver cleanses so helpful to so many people?

[Guest guest]

Rich,

As I remember, there has been some debate as to whether the " stones "

released were somehow produced by what is ingested during the flush

process. Defenders say that since they tend to reduce with repeated

flushes, that cannot be true.

Does anyone know whether these stones are found during autopsies? Also,

what do mainstream medics make of flushes?

PS I hope people will come forward with their experiences of Jarrow Th1

Probiotic. It sounds very promising but very few suppliers seem to carry

it.

Rob

----- Original Message -----

From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...>

Over the years there have been many reports that people have

benefited from liver cleanses, which involve ingesting quite a bit

of oil in one serving, augmented by other things to prevent

vomiting, such as a citrus juice.

When a person ingests a big serving of some type of oil, such as

olive oil, cells in the duodenum secrete a lot of cholecystokinin,

and this stimulates the gall bladder to contract and to put out a

lot of bile into the duodenum, for the purpose of emulsifying the

fat, producing small droplets that are more easily digested. Maybe

the liver is also stimulated to produce more bile. This constitutes

the " flush. "

I've wondered why the bile system in so many people has become

congested to the point that a flush like this is needed and is

beneficial.

A thought that has occurred to me is that quite a large fraction of

the population has been emphasizing low fat in their diets, because

of pronouncements by the authorities that this is a good idea, and

because people have equated fat in the diet to fat in the body, and

they want to keep their weight down.

I'm wondering if the low fat diets have caused congestion of the

bile production system (liver, gall bladder and ducts) because there

has not been enough fat in the diet to promote secretion of enough

cholecystokinin to flush the system naturally. Does anybody have

any thoughts on this? For example, do the people who have found

benefit from liver flushes have a history of sticking to a " low fat "

diet?

[Guest guest]

Releaseing the bile is probably the major factor in the flushes, when bile

is released then toxins are released at the same time. The liver is aken to

a maufacturing plant and a storeage facility. It cleanses the blood and at

the same time manufactures liver enzymes. An MD will look for elevated

liver enzymes to indicate certain diseases of the liver. Enzymes can go up

when a person is very toxic. At any given time 1/3 of the blood is in the

liver to be cleansed, that is why a lacerated liver in an accident is life

theatening. Stones occur in most human being and are the result of being to

acid or an embalance between sodium and potassium. These two minerals are

the organic sodium and potassium not sodium chloride that we generally think

of as table salt. They can be rather benign unless they get stuck in the

bile duct or they are really big....

I checked the Jarrows product and the same organisms are in EPS and

Jarrowdolphlius. I highly recommend EPS, it is a very good inexpensive

product that does not have to be refrigerated. I have to give Jarrow's a

call and see what the difference is in the products they manufacture.

Terry Suttles

877-349-2946

t.suttles@...

[Guest guest]

Rich, Since you're hypothesizing -- and since I have just completed

a successful liver flush -- I can reply by saying that I can't recall

ever being on a low-fat diet. In fact I've always made it a point to

do exactly the opposite and include plenty of oils/fats in my diet

(primarily olive oil, butter and animal fats). I even do all the

things we're *not supposed to* like eat the fat on my steak and the

skin on my chicken (gross, I know). FWIW.

--- " rvankonynen " <richvank@a...> wrote:

I'm wondering if the low fat diets have caused congestion of the

bile production system (liver, gall bladder and ducts) because there

has not been enough fat in the diet to promote secretion of enough

cholecystokinin to flush the system naturally. Does anybody have

any thoughts on this? For example, do the people who have found

benefit from liver flushes have a history of sticking to a " low fat "

diet?

Rich

[Guest guest]

Did you prepare with a colon flush of any kind first? I keep reading

how imiporant it is to have a clean colon first but I don't know if

this is true, or just hearsay.

>

> I'm wondering if the low fat diets have caused congestion of the

> bile production system (liver, gall bladder and ducts) because

there

> has not been enough fat in the diet to promote secretion of enough

> cholecystokinin to flush the system naturally. Does anybody have

> any thoughts on this? For example, do the people who have found

> benefit from liver flushes have a history of sticking to a " low

fat "

> diet?

>

> Rich

[Guest guest]

Jill, I have no idea how important a clean colon is prior to a liver flush,

however...

coffee enemas are already a routine part of my protocol. And, just to be sure,

I did an

enema the afternoon of the liver flush. GB

--- " jill1313 " <jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

Did you prepare with a colon flush of any kind first? I keep reading

how imiporant it is to have a clean colon first but I don't know if

this is true, or just hearsay.

[Guest guest]

Hi, wardgb2000,

Thanks for the input. Sounds like that hypothesis certainly doesn't

fit you.

Rich

>

> I'm wondering if the low fat diets have caused congestion of the

> bile production system (liver, gall bladder and ducts) because

there

> has not been enough fat in the diet to promote secretion of enough

> cholecystokinin to flush the system naturally. Does anybody have

> any thoughts on this? For example, do the people who have found

> benefit from liver flushes have a history of sticking to a " low

fat "

> diet?

>

> Rich

[Guest guest]

Rob,

Yes, I have read those arguments. However, I have also read

accounts from people who collected the stones from their stools and

who testified that they were very hard, suggesting that they were

not produced from the oil used in the flush. The decreasing number

of " stones " found in subsequent flushes also supports this

proposition.

Gallstones are commonly found in autopsies. In the U.S., 20% of

women and 8% of men over the age of 40 are found to have gallstones

on autopsy, according to on's Principles of Internal Medicine.

Mainstream doctors in the U.S. do not support the use of liver

flushes. Naturopaths seem to support them as a means of liver

detox, but not for individuals with gallstones. For example, here's

what Murray and Pizzorno say in the Encyclopedia of Natural

Medicine, Revised 2nd Edition, p. 481:

" A popular lay remedy for gallstones is the socalled olive

oil " liver flush. " There are several variations. A typical one

involves drinking 1 cup of unrefined olive oil with the juice of two

lemons in the morning for several days. Many people tell tales of

passing huge stones while on the liver flush. However, what they

think are gallstones are simply a soft saponified complex of

minerals, olive oil, and lemon juice produced within the

gastrointestinal tract.

" The olive oil liver flush is probably undesirable for patients with

gallstones for several reasons. First, consuming a large quantity

of any oil will result in contraction of the gall bladder, which may

increase the liklihood of a stone blocking the bile duct. This may

result in cholecystitis, requiring immediate surgery to prevent

death. Second, oleic acid, the main component of olive oil, has

been shown to increase the development of gallstones in rabbits and

rats by increasing the content of cholesterol in the gallbladder.

Although this effect has not yet been observed in humans, the animal

research suggests that it is unwise to use an olive oil liver flush

as a treatment for gallbladder disease. This does not mean that the

liver flush is invalid as a method of liver detoxification.

However, it is not recommended for individuals with gallstones. "

Since quite a few people have gallstones but haven't experienced

symptoms from them, I wonder if heretofore asymptomatic gallstones

can produce problems in liver flushes.

Rich

> Rich,

>

> As I remember, there has been some debate as to whether

the " stones "

> released were somehow produced by what is ingested during the flush

> process. Defenders say that since they tend to reduce with repeated

> flushes, that cannot be true.

>

> Does anyone know whether these stones are found during autopsies?

Also,

> what do mainstream medics make of flushes?

>

> PS I hope people will come forward with their experiences of

Jarrow Th1

> Probiotic. It sounds very promising but very few suppliers seem

to carry

> it.

>

> Rob

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@a...>

>

> Over the years there have been many reports that people have

> benefited from liver cleanses, which involve ingesting quite a bit

> of oil in one serving, augmented by other things to prevent

> vomiting, such as a citrus juice.

>

> When a person ingests a big serving of some type of oil, such as

> olive oil, cells in the duodenum secrete a lot of cholecystokinin,

> and this stimulates the gall bladder to contract and to put out a

> lot of bile into the duodenum, for the purpose of emulsifying the

> fat, producing small droplets that are more easily digested. Maybe

> the liver is also stimulated to produce more bile. This

constitutes

> the " flush. "

>

> I've wondered why the bile system in so many people has become

> congested to the point that a flush like this is needed and is

> beneficial.

>

> A thought that has occurred to me is that quite a large fraction of

> the population has been emphasizing low fat in their diets, because

> of pronouncements by the authorities that this is a good idea, and

> because people have equated fat in the diet to fat in the body, and

> they want to keep their weight down.

>

> I'm wondering if the low fat diets have caused congestion of the

> bile production system (liver, gall bladder and ducts) because

there

> has not been enough fat in the diet to promote secretion of enough

> cholecystokinin to flush the system naturally. Does anybody have

> any thoughts on this? For example, do the people who have found

> benefit from liver flushes have a history of sticking to a " low

fat "

> diet?

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...>

SNIP

Gallstones are commonly found in autopsies. In the U.S., 20% of

women and 8% of men over the age of 40 are found to have gallstones

on autopsy, according to on's Principles of Internal Medicine.

Rich,

Thanks for this informative reply. Since most of the people who try liver

flushes seem to report passing stones, this doesn't seem to track in with

the autopsy averages, and I bet the autopsy figures include individuals

with far fewer than the

scores that are usually reported by flushers.

Also, folks saying that it took them several tries would maybe support

Murray's view that they are formed as a result of the flushes, though not

just from olive oil. If they contain as he says other substances like

minerals, for example, that could explain why their numbers decrease.

I'm generally open-minded, but something isn't right here.

Rob

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...>

SNIP

Gallstones are commonly found in autopsies. In the U.S., 20% of

women and 8% of men over the age of 40 are found to have gallstones

on autopsy, according to on's Principles of Internal Medicine.

Rich,

Thanks for this informative reply. Since most of the people who try liver

flushes seem to report passing stones, this doesn't seem to track in with

the autopsy averages, and I bet the autopsy figures include individuals

with far fewer than the

scores that are usually reported by flushers.

Also, folks saying that it took them several tries would maybe support

Murray's view that they are formed as a result of the flushes, though not

just from olive oil. If they contain as he says other substances like

minerals, for example, that could explain why their numbers decrease.

I'm generally open-minded, but something isn't right here.

Rob

[Guest guest]

Just curious, how many people who die are regularly autopsied? IF the

cause of death is known, as it usually is, are they autopsied and

their gallbladders and livers examined? If in most cases they

aren't, do the statistics reflect a true average?

I find reports on colonics and liver flushes confusing but I am going

to try them (from home). For colonics--if there is all that mucoid

plaque and ropes of stuff and worms, then what happens during a

colonoscopy, which everybody over age 50 gets? You get flushed out

by the stuff they make you take, and they go in with a lighted probe

and examine the colon for polyps or any problems. Wouldn't they see

ropes of hard gunk or worms if they were common?

Yet I do trust the basic results that people get with these cleansing

methods--they feel better. And certainly people with gallstones can

avoid surgery this way.

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@a...>

>

> SNIP

> Gallstones are commonly found in autopsies. In the U.S., 20% of

> women and 8% of men over the age of 40 are found to have gallstones

> on autopsy, according to on's Principles of Internal Medicine.

>

> Rich,

>

> Thanks for this informative reply. Since most of the people who try

liver

> flushes seem to report passing stones, this doesn't seem to track

in with

> the autopsy averages, and I bet the autopsy figures include

individuals

> with far fewer than the

> scores that are usually reported by flushers.

>

> Also, folks saying that it took them several tries would maybe

support

> Murray's view that they are formed as a result of the flushes,

though not

> just from olive oil. If they contain as he says other substances

like

> minerals, for example, that could explain why their numbers

decrease.

>

> I'm generally open-minded, but something isn't right here.

>

> Rob

[Guest guest]

Jill,

Here's a url for a recent paper that discusses the autopsy rate:

http://economics.agnesscott.edu/~esayre/ research/woods-sayre.pdf

The rate has been dropping under managed care, but I think it's

still large enough to give statistically significant gallstone

prevalences.

Rich

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@a...>

> >

> > SNIP

> > Gallstones are commonly found in autopsies. In the U.S., 20% of

> > women and 8% of men over the age of 40 are found to have

gallstones

> > on autopsy, according to on's Principles of Internal

Medicine.

> >

> > Rich,

> >

> > Thanks for this informative reply. Since most of the people who

try

> liver

> > flushes seem to report passing stones, this doesn't seem to

track

> in with

> > the autopsy averages, and I bet the autopsy figures include

> individuals

> > with far fewer than the

> > scores that are usually reported by flushers.

> >

> > Also, folks saying that it took them several tries would maybe

> support

> > Murray's view that they are formed as a result of the flushes,

> though not

> > just from olive oil. If they contain as he says other substances

> like

> > minerals, for example, that could explain why their numbers

> decrease.

> >

> > I'm generally open-minded, but something isn't right here.

> >

> > Rob

[Guest guest]

Thanx, Rich. You are a wealth of info. I must admit I'm confused.

> > >

> > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@a...>

> > >

> > > SNIP

> > > Gallstones are commonly found in autopsies. In the U.S., 20% of

> > > women and 8% of men over the age of 40 are found to have

> gallstones

> > > on autopsy, according to on's Principles of Internal

> Medicine.

> > >

> > > Rich,

> > >

> > > Thanks for this informative reply. Since most of the people who

> try

> > liver

> > > flushes seem to report passing stones, this doesn't seem to

> track

> > in with

> > > the autopsy averages, and I bet the autopsy figures include

> > individuals

> > > with far fewer than the

> > > scores that are usually reported by flushers.

> > >

> > > Also, folks saying that it took them several tries would maybe

> > support

> > > Murray's view that they are formed as a result of the flushes,

> > though not

> > > just from olive oil. If they contain as he says other

substances

> > like

> > > minerals, for example, that could explain why their numbers

> > decrease.

> > >

> > > I'm generally open-minded, but something isn't right here.

> > >

> > > Rob