Guest guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 My theory is that some pathogens release toxins as they die, and others don't. If you take augmentin for an ear infection it just clears up the infection and you feel better. But other pathogens especially intracellular ones, as they die off release toxins causing a herxheimer symptom. It also depends on how they are killed. For instance, nystatin bursts yeast, explodes it, causing a herx. But diflucan I believe just inhibits it. So it doesn't explode and release its toxins asll at once. > Rich, > > Most people on these lists believe that herxing is good and it means > that pathogens are being killed. I took augmentin several months back > and on the second day, I felt perfectably normal, my libido even > returned. No herxing. I took Augmentin for 10 days and after I quit, > my symptoms started returning. so is herxing a sign that pathogens > are being killed and what is happening when Augmentin made me feel > normal and no herxing? > > Too herx or not too herx, that is the question. > > S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 Rich, is there a reason why so many people relapse after stopping antibiotics? annemie -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Bob [mailto:blue74730@...] Verzonden: zaterdag 30 augustus 2003 9:17 Aan: Onderwerp: Herxing-Rich Rich, Most people on these lists believe that herxing is good and it means that pathogens are being killed. I took augmentin several months back and on the second day, I felt perfectably normal, my libido even returned. No herxing. I took Augmentin for 10 days and after I quit, my symptoms started returning. so is herxing a sign that pathogens are being killed and what is happening when Augmentin made me feel normal and no herxing? Too herx or not too herx, that is the question. S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 But diflucan I believe just inhibits it. So it doesn't explode and release its toxins asll at once. Jill, This is very topical for me as I had a herx whilst taking both Amoxicillin (for Lyme) and diflucan (to cure/prevent the yeast overgrowth the Amoxi invariably gives me). Day 5 I had the mother of all Herxes, complete with fever (above 38°C) which for me is quite high, dreadful bone, muscle, joint, head pain. I wasn't sure what to make of it. It definitely felt like a Herx, in fact it closely resembled a mega-herx I had when on IV Rocephin, so I am leaning towards a Herx from the amoxi but not sure as I had never taken diflucan before and I stopped both when the " herx " happened, as it was so bad. So, I am interested in finding out more about this: can diflucan cause herxing or not? I have now re-started amoxi and I am waiting to see what happens on day 5 (today day 3). Nelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 Bob, As I understand it, the Jarisch Herxheimer reaction occurs when the die-off of a pathogen or cells infected by a pathogen is so rapid that the endotoxins released cannot be dealt with by the immune and detox systems rapidly enough to prevent a toxic reaction. I think it was first observed when syphilis was treated with antibiotics. The solution was to lower the dose of antibiotics, so that the die- off would occur more slowly. In CFS, I think that infections by viruses, intracellular bacteria (mycoplasma, rickettsia and chlamydia) and fungi (such as Candida) are able to get well entrenched because of suppression of the Th1 (cell mediated) immune response. I think this initially results from glutathione depletion and initially elevated cortisol output as a result of a combination of long-term stresses. Later on, some of these pathogens are able to secrete substances that " trick " the immune system into responding improperly. The result of all these factors is thriving infections. When an effective antibiotic is used against such an infection, or when the glutathione is replenished by the use of an undenatured whey protein product, or when an effective transfer factor boosts the T-cell response, a Jarisch Herxheimer reaction can occur. In your own case, I'm not sure what type of infection you had or how extensive it was. If it wasn't too well-developed, or if it didn't involve a very large part of your tissues, or if it was not killed off too rapidly, or if it was a type that doesn't produce endotoxins, it may not have produced a Jarish Herxheimer reaction. Rich > Rich, > > Most people on these lists believe that herxing is good and it means > that pathogens are being killed. I took augmentin several months back > and on the second day, I felt perfectably normal, my libido even > returned. No herxing. I took Augmentin for 10 days and after I quit, > my symptoms started returning. so is herxing a sign that pathogens > are being killed and what is happening when Augmentin made me feel > normal and no herxing? > > Too herx or not too herx, that is the question. > > S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 That is a good question and I don't know. I hope the antibiotics are improving you? Have you tried alternative modalities such as sauna, or oxygen therapies? > But > diflucan I believe just inhibits it. So it doesn't explode and > release its toxins asll at once. > > Jill, > > This is very topical for me as I had a herx whilst taking both Amoxicillin > (for Lyme) and diflucan (to cure/prevent the yeast overgrowth the Amoxi > invariably gives me). Day 5 I had the mother of all Herxes, complete with > fever (above 38°C) which for me is quite high, dreadful bone, muscle, joint, > head pain. I wasn't sure what to make of it. It definitely felt like a Herx, > in fact it closely resembled a mega-herx I had when on IV Rocephin, so I am > leaning towards a Herx from the amoxi but not sure as I had never taken > diflucan before and I stopped both when the " herx " happened, as it was so > bad. > > So, I am interested in finding out more about this: can diflucan cause > herxing or not? > > I have now re-started amoxi and I am waiting to see what happens on day 5 > (today day 3). > > Nelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 It's thought that certain intracellular pathogens are either slow- growing, or go into dormant phases in the presence of antibiotics. I recently saw a study that this is the case in tuberculosis and probably other orgnaisms as well. For instance lyme (which I have) has a cystic form and a granule form as well, just like syphilis. Thus in inhsopitable conditions it will go dormant and then when antibiotics are stopped, come out again. However, in dormant phase (cyst especiallyh) eventually it will degrade if it doesn't reproduce. Noiot sure if this is trueof the granule phased which is almost like a seed or spore. Those might last indefinitely. So if you could tolerate antibiogtics long enough and reduce the numbers and degrade the cysts through time, then you might have a level of latent infection that is low enough the body can handle withotu relapse. > Rich, is there a reason why so many people relapse after stopping > antibiotics? > annemie > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Bob [mailto:blue74730@y...] > Verzonden: zaterdag 30 augustus 2003 9:17 > Aan: > Onderwerp: Herxing-Rich > > > Rich, > > Most people on these lists believe that herxing is good and it means > that pathogens are being killed. I took augmentin several months back > and on the second day, I felt perfectably normal, my libido even > returned. No herxing. I took Augmentin for 10 days and after I quit, > my symptoms started returning. so is herxing a sign that pathogens > are being killed and what is happening when Augmentin made me feel > normal and no herxing? > > Too herx or not too herx, that is the question. > > S. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 Annemie, Generally speaking, I think it's because their immune systems are unable to control the pathogens. In some cases, I think these are pathogens that cannot be controlled even by the immune systems of normal, healthy people, and they are able to lay dormant in the body in the cyst form, as Jill mentioned. I think that Lyme spirochetes are an example of this type. In other cases, I think that there are pathogens that a normal, healthy immune system can control, such as the herpes family viruses Epstein--Barr, cytomegalovirus, herpes simplex types 1 and 2, herpes zoster (varicella zoster, the chicken pox--shingles virus), HHV-6 a and b, and HHV-7. In this category I would also put the mycoplasmas, rickettsias and chlamydias and the yeasts. I think that the reason these come back after stopping antivirals, transfer factors, antibiotics, or antifungals, whichever is appropriate, is that the immune system is abnormally suppressed. In some cases, I think this can be remedied by taking a high potency general nutritional supplement such as Sparx (www.krysalis-sparx.com) to supply the vitamins and minerals needed by the immune system, ImmunePro to build up glutathione and supply the other amino acids needed by the immune system, such as glutamine and arginine, flax oil to supply the essential fatty acids, ProBoost thymic protein A to stimulate the thymus to produce more T cells, and perhaps Tagamet to block the histamine receptors on the cytotoxic T cells to prevent them from being shut down by histamine secreted by herpes viruses. If the gut is not in good shape, then I think this will have to be dealt with first to remove the load of protein fragments entering the bloodstream because of " leaky gut " (intestinal permeability), and thus to relieve the immune system from having to deal with them. I think that food sensitivities also may need to be dealt with by eliminating some foods from the diet to relieve the immune system from having to deal with them. If you look in the " Links " section of this list under my name, you will find my " Strawman Treatment Protocol, " which goes into some things in more detail. There may be some things I should add to it now. One in particular that might help, especially for PWCs who have a lower than normal peripheral body temperature and feel cold much of the time, is the FIR sauna that Jim Clements has been promoting. Rich Rich > Rich, is there a reason why so many people relapse after stopping > antibiotics? > annemie > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Bob [mailto:blue74730@y...] > Verzonden: zaterdag 30 augustus 2003 9:17 > Aan: > Onderwerp: Herxing-Rich > > > Rich, > > Most people on these lists believe that herxing is good and it means > that pathogens are being killed. I took augmentin several months back > and on the second day, I felt perfectably normal, my libido even > returned. No herxing. I took Augmentin for 10 days and after I quit, > my symptoms started returning. so is herxing a sign that pathogens > are being killed and what is happening when Augmentin made me feel > normal and no herxing? > > Too herx or not too herx, that is the question. > > S. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 I am not Rich, but I think the obvious answer is that you haven't completely killed all the bacteria. It hides out deep in tissues and is very hard to eliminate. So when you stop antibiotics, the bacteria are free to spread back out from deep inside tissues into the blood and the body, and you get symptomatic again. Thanks, Doris ----- Original Message ----- Rich, is there a reason why so many people relapse after stopping antibiotics? annemie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Rich,thanks Do you have to continue the antibiotics in such cases for a long time or not? annemie -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: rvankonynen [mailto:richvank@...] Verzonden: zaterdag 30 augustus 2003 19:29 Aan: Onderwerp: Re: Herxing-Rich Annemie, Generally speaking, I think it's because their immune systems are unable to control the pathogens. In some cases, I think these are pathogens that cannot be controlled even by the immune systems of normal, healthy people, and they are able to lay dormant in the body in the cyst form, as Jill mentioned. I think that Lyme spirochetes are an example of this type. In other cases, I think that there are pathogens that a normal, healthy immune system can control, such as the herpes family viruses Epstein--Barr, cytomegalovirus, herpes simplex types 1 and 2, herpes zoster (varicella zoster, the chicken pox--shingles virus), HHV-6 a and b, and HHV-7. In this category I would also put the mycoplasmas, rickettsias and chlamydias and the yeasts. I think that the reason these come back after stopping antivirals, transfer factors, antibiotics, or antifungals, whichever is appropriate, is that the immune system is abnormally suppressed. In some cases, I think this can be remedied by taking a high potency general nutritional supplement such as Sparx (www.krysalis-sparx.com) to supply the vitamins and minerals needed by the immune system, ImmunePro to build up glutathione and supply the other amino acids needed by the immune system, such as glutamine and arginine, flax oil to supply the essential fatty acids, ProBoost thymic protein A to stimulate the thymus to produce more T cells, and perhaps Tagamet to block the histamine receptors on the cytotoxic T cells to prevent them from being shut down by histamine secreted by herpes viruses. If the gut is not in good shape, then I think this will have to be dealt with first to remove the load of protein fragments entering the bloodstream because of " leaky gut " (intestinal permeability), and thus to relieve the immune system from having to deal with them. I think that food sensitivities also may need to be dealt with by eliminating some foods from the diet to relieve the immune system from having to deal with them. If you look in the " Links " section of this list under my name, you will find my " Strawman Treatment Protocol, " which goes into some things in more detail. There may be some things I should add to it now. One in particular that might help, especially for PWCs who have a lower than normal peripheral body temperature and feel cold much of the time, is the FIR sauna that Jim Clements has been promoting. Rich Rich > Rich, is there a reason why so many people relapse after stopping > antibiotics? > annemie > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Bob [mailto:blue74730@y...] > Verzonden: zaterdag 30 augustus 2003 9:17 > Aan: > Onderwerp: Herxing-Rich > > > Rich, > > Most people on these lists believe that herxing is good and it means > that pathogens are being killed. I took augmentin several months back > and on the second day, I felt perfectably normal, my libido even > returned. No herxing. I took Augmentin for 10 days and after I quit, > my symptoms started returning. so is herxing a sign that pathogens > are being killed and what is happening when Augmentin made me feel > normal and no herxing? > > Too herx or not too herx, that is the question. > > S. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Thanks anyway, it means that one has to continue the antibiotic therapy, and it means also that one has to stop after a while and has to oberve the immediate reaction, it is not a very scientific procedure annemie -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Doris Brown [mailto:dorisbrown9@...] Verzonden: zaterdag 30 augustus 2003 21:35 Aan: Onderwerp: Re: Herxing-Rich I am not Rich, but I think the obvious answer is that you haven't completely killed all the bacteria. It hides out deep in tissues and is very hard to eliminate. So when you stop antibiotics, the bacteria are free to spread back out from deep inside tissues into the blood and the body, and you get symptomatic again. Thanks, Doris ----- Original Message ----- Rich, is there a reason why so many people relapse after stopping antibiotics? annemie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Annemie, I wish I could give you a clearcut answer to this question, but I think it will vary, depending on the case. It can be very difficult to restore the immune system to normal operation. Some infections are very difficult to conquer, such as disseminated Lyme disease. Viral infections in the brain (encephalitis) are also hard to conquer. I think this is one of the toughest issues in treating CFS. Dr. Dan reported some success in treating HHV-6 infections in the brain with antivirals at the last AACFS meeting. I think we all still have a lot to learn about this. Rich > > Rich, is there a reason why so many people relapse after stopping > > antibiotics? > > annemie > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: Bob [mailto:blue74730@y...] > > Verzonden: zaterdag 30 augustus 2003 9:17 > > Aan: > > Onderwerp: Herxing-Rich > > > > > > Rich, > > > > Most people on these lists believe that herxing is good and it > means > > that pathogens are being killed. I took augmentin several months > back > > and on the second day, I felt perfectably normal, my libido even > > returned. No herxing. I took Augmentin for 10 days and after I > quit, > > my symptoms started returning. so is herxing a sign that > pathogens > > are being killed and what is happening when Augmentin made me > feel > > normal and no herxing? > > > > Too herx or not too herx, that is the question. > > > > S. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 31, 2003 Report Share Posted August 31, 2003 Or, it could be that you are still not decoupling oxygen from your hemoglobin? If you did not desaturate oxygen when holding you breath, then you are bound to get reinfected. Proper oxygenation is one of the things that keeps intracellulars at bay. Don't know how to fit that in with doing abx's. Just an observation. Zippy ============================================================= > > Rich, is there a reason why so many people relapse after stopping > > antibiotics? > > annemie > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: Bob [mailto:blue74730@y...] > > Verzonden: zaterdag 30 augustus 2003 9:17 > > Aan: > > Onderwerp: Herxing-Rich > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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