Re: Re: Sherry Detoxify or Die

[Guest guest]

(I

> admit I've not read the book. I went to purchase it at and

> Noble but for some reason they are not carrying it. At least that is

> what the clerk told me.)

I see its available from Amazon.com right now for 22.95 with free shipping

on orders over $25. I see she also has a book on Chemical Sensitivities and

one called Pain Free in 6 wks.

Marcia

[Guest guest]

thmicom wrote:

> I used to suggest ionized water as part of the FIR program, but have

> found that it is not as essential for success. To reduce overall

> cost, if a person has a good charcoal filtered water that seems to be

> fine.

If you only filter water with charcoal, you are not removing most of the

dangerous toxins found in tap water. The only way to do it is to use an

RO system or distill the water (which is what I do). even

recommends distillation.

> I only suggest a couple minerals all other suggested nutrition

> is derived from food sources. Though these are foods that most

> people typically do not include in their diet, such as sweet dairy

> whey for sodium and lactose which helps to feed the good bacteria in

> the gut.

Fructooligosacchrides are far better (and recommended) for " feeding " the

bacteria in the gut than lactose, to which many people have a serious

intolerance.

> Since a person with CFS-FMS is dealing with dehydration issues, I

> think that daily saunas could be overly stressful on the system.

> People that are borderline having gallstone problems, but are not yet

> aware of it could tip themselves into problems in that area by

> increasing dehydration if they use the sauna too much at first

> without adaquate water intake.

It can be extremely bad if you have orthostatic intolerance or NMH.

suggests FIR as being much better for people with blood pressure

and heart disease issues.

My EI doc has the book, and I read it at his office. <G>

Teewinot

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Teewinot13@...

[Guest guest]

thmicom wrote:

> I do not suggest that anyone drink RO or distilled water. One person

> that had been drinking both these waters for a very long time, first

> RO for about 10 years and then distilled for almost as long, is now

> dealing with very severe osteoporosis problems. I feel that her

> drinking this type water for so many years contributed to the problem.

One person doesn't make proof. Osteoporosis has been shown to be caused

by estrogen dominance and exposure to xenoestrogens, lack of

progesterone, high salt diet, and lack of exercise. Not for one minute

do I believe the water caused the problem. In fact, there are

osteoporosis experts who recommend distilled water in order to avoid the

xenoestrogens in the water supply. Charcoal does *NOT* remove them.

> I said that charcoal filtered water works fine. Certainly if someone

> can afford an ionizer, I feel that it is worth the investment.

> Ionized water is my own prefered drinking water. There is a

> scietific research article " Electrolyzed-Reduced Water Scavenges

> Active Oxygen Species and Protects DNA from Oxidative Damage " at

> http://www.hochealth.com/downloads/watersys.pdf which suggests

> favorable health benefits from drinking ionized water.

> A charcoal filter will remove chlorine. Chlorinated water is not

> good for gut bacteria. Flouride is not good either, bad on gut

> bacteria and binds with magnesium to make that mineral unuseable. An

> ionizer will remove both chlorine and flouride.

Those are only two of the toxins present in drinking water. What about

all the rest? Lead, PCBs, xenoestrogens, plasticizers, pesticides,

herbicides, etc.

> FOS is good for feeding gut bacteria. It may even be better than

> sweet dairy whey. People may be more tolerant of FOS. Sweet dairy

> whey is very inexpensive, under $2/lb. Other things that help

> nourish good gut bacteria besides lactose, is the fiber in the diet

> and vitamin C. FOS is found in certain foods. Include those foods

> into the diet.

I agree.

> What I suggest in the FIR program is a basic outline. How a person

> chooses to complement it with other supplements that they have proven

> helpful is up to them. Follow the basic outline and add what you

> want.

True, but you also present some misleading info.

> I disagree about FIR sauna being bad for people with orthostatic

> intolerance. A person with OI can get into a FIR sauna, become

> faint, dizzy, or nauseous and conclude that it is not good for them.

> If someone has OI, it typically is an indicator that they may have

> low blood volume. A person with OI or NMH will have to go more

> slowly with the use of FIR sauna. The solution to OI is to increase

> blood volume, to do this a person needs to increase metabolism. The

> FIR sauna helps by increasing metabolism.

I never said *FIR* was bad. I said *recommends* it for the above

people. The other poster was taking about regular sauna being bad. I

pointed out that was true.

' book is quite good.

Teewinot

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Teewinot13@...

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Thank you for your email. It made so much sense to me.

I have a sister who smokes, drinks alcohol to excess

and eats a very limited diet which consists of meat,

packaged food and no vege apart from chips. She takes

very little exercise and thinks that Coca Cola is

better than water.

She is fit, slim and well.

I on the other-hand was the " healthy " one in the

family. Great diet, exercise and nothing obviously

toxic to excess.

Where did that get me? 20 years of M.E. after a virus.

Kindest regards,

Annette

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[Guest guest]

,

I thought the post from Skeesix was a good one.

Whether you agree with it or not, it doesn't help discussion on this board

for anyone to be so continually dismissive of other members' views.

Please, , present reasoned arguments by all means but try not to scoff

so often without presenting conclusive supporting evidence yourself. Many

potential contributors with useful things to say are reluctant to expose

themselves to the kind of treatment that you dish out, and it's killing

this forum.

In particular, with a multifactorial and poorly-defined set of illnesses

such as we are concerned with here, arguing from a selected instance, like

Incline Village, is unreliable. We don't know whether what they had is

what we have or whether we all have the same thing.

Rob

Re: Sherry " Detoxify or Die "

>The kind of pollution/toxins she is talking about is not only what

you would generally consider as pollution (smog ) but a much more

prevalent and insidious kind of pollution from the leaching

out/gassing off of everyday man-made items found in our homes and

workplaces.<

Yes, I've heard all that. Many, many times.

It doesn't fit.

This theory has been stretched so hard as to be far beyond the

snapping point of reason. Just like the nutritional deficit theory

that keeps insisting that " since you have the illness, you must have

been malnutritioned by food lacking " orgone " and poisoned by SAD " .

(Standard American Diet).

People try so hard to stretch these types of theories that I've even

heard things like " Well if you weren't eating twinkies, then perhaps

while you were eating healthy food you were THINKING about eating

twinkies and fooled your body into an unhealthy perception of what it

was eating " .

Anybody who has experienced the reality of this illness knows that it

is so far outside the range of normal human experience that you can't

even get your own mother to believe you're not exaggerating it, let

alone your doctors.

The exposures that people implicate don't even come close to

explaining a most abnormal situation.

I find it hard to believe that there is such a level of toxins,

pollutants, off gassing cheap furniture, mercury using dental

practice, stores selling bad produce (or anything else that people

blame) to be found in Incline Village at such a degree of exposure as

to make it the worst choice of places to live in 1985 while other

places went untouched.

The toxic overload theory doesn't fit the facts - on any level.

-

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Tom,

Unfortunately, I'll have to be very brief.

1) I did not object to explaining why. If you look at his post,

however, only the brief Incline Village point, which I've responded to

twice, does that. The rest is just unsupported assertion, which doesn't

help us to understand.

2) The syndromes are, as I say, multifactorial -- more than one cause.

3) They are, like most illnesses, the result of external factors acting

upon genetic predispositions.

4) As LTD insurers know, sufferers frequently give up the precipitating

employment some time before they are diagnosed because they are unable to

continue. The ones you see in any workplace are the ones who have been

able to keep going. Those who couldn't have moved on or out and have been

replaced. Don't forget, if accumulation of environmental pollutants is the

cause, the timescale for developing these conditions will be decades.

5) Please read the piece I've just posted.

Rob

Re: Sherry " Detoxify or Die "

Hi All.

I just wanted to say that I don't think was being antagonistic or

unreasonable. He is just trying to explain why he doesn't agree with

the toxic overload theory and others keep trying to convince him that

he should believe in it.

I see 's point. Wouldn't there be tons of people who work at an

electronics department store like Best Buy (full of those outgassed

toxins), who are overweight, eat a lot of junk food and live in a

cheaply built apartment in a major city coming down with CFIDS if

those were the causes of CFIDS?

When I go into Best Buy I see a lot of people who could fit that

profile (no I haven't taken a survey but I'll bet there are a lot of

people who fit that profile working there) but I haven't heard of any

mystery illness ravaging the employees of Best Buy or Carpet Giant or

Home Depot or any of the other most toxic workplaces.

Also if poor diet was the cause, I would think that about 1 in 4

Americans would be bed ridden with CFIDS. All those obese people

eating massive quantities of the worst, most processed, additive

loaded food should be dropping like flies.

The toxic overload theory may apply to some PWCs but the theory does

seem to have some gaping holes in it.

Tom

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Tomcy6 wrote:

> I see 's point. Wouldn't there be tons of people who work at an

> electronics department store like Best Buy (full of those outgassed

> toxins), who are overweight, eat a lot of junk food and live in a

> cheaply built apartment in a major city coming down with CFIDS if

> those were the causes of CFIDS?

No, because just as with any other disease entity, not all people are as

susceptible as everyone else. When I was a kid, everyone around me were

dropping like flies with Mumps. I ate off ice cream cones, silverware

and lollipops (yes, we were gross kids!) that people shared with me who

came down sick within a day or two of sharing. I have *never* had Mumps

in my whole life. I'm now 49. My doctor said I'm (or was) immune.

Just like in my profession (respiratory therapy), I saw people who

smoked only half a pack for five years and got emphysema and lung

cancer, while others smoked three packs of cigarettes for 40-50 years

and died only of old age in their 80s and 90s.

A lot of it depends on how strong your immune system is, and what your

genetics are.

Plenty of people work with toxic chemicals every day, get exposed and

never sick. I've known some. I got exposed to formaldehyde (so did 10

other people with me - I was the only one who got sick), gluteraldehyde,

petroleum-based furniture wax, and tung oil and wound up with CFIDS, and

later MCS. My immune system has *always* been weak: I've had allergies

and asthma all my life. I had a strong genetic predisposition for this

sort of thing: parents with allergies, mother with Crohn's Disease

(autoimmune), a cousin with Multiple Sclerosis (autoimmune), and aunt

with severe Type I Diabetes, another cousin with Rheumatoid Arthritis

(autoimmune).

Just like those people in Italy that have a gene that lets them eat all

the bad foods, tons of fat, etc. and they can never get heart disease.

They've been on TV many times. Scientists have studied them in hopes of

finding a way to make some drug or something to protect all people.

This has been my experience.

Teewinot

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Teewinot13@...

[Guest guest]

> Also somebody should tell Sherry that we're all going to die

> anyway. Eating a perfect diet, avoiding all toxins and exercising

> religously may (or may not) add a few years to your life, but we will

> all age and eventually die in about the same time frame no matter

> what.

>

But anything that adds LIFE to those years we do have is worth trying.

Walking around like the walking dead because we got CFS and it impairs detox

pathways and many other side effects isn't what I call 'living'. I've been

ill for decades, and seen little for treatment ideas that have panned out,

so we do what we can to maximize what we still have left. Who knows when

they will actually discover what caused our illness, much less how to

reverse it, maybe right behind curing cancer and AIDS, and maybe not in our

lifetimes. Meantime we need to to make the most of what we have by doing

the things to help our bodies compensate. Or just buy a pine box and lie

down and wait.

Marcia

[Guest guest]

Hi Tom,

> I agree that some PWCs had weak immune systems or genetic

> predisposition but I think just as many had strong immune systems and

> were genetically robust.

I'm sure there are many causes, not just one ... just like with cancer.

> You would not find my picture next to the definition of health in the

> dictionary, but I was definitely not anywhere near the lowest 1st

> percentile as far as health and genetic robustness goes. I can think

> of many people around me throughout my life who should have succumbed

> to toxic overload before I did.

Except for my allergies, before I got CFIDS, I was quite healthy.

> So I have to say that toxic overload may be some PWCs problem, and it

> is everone's absolute right to decide if that is their problem and to

> treat their illness accordingly. But I think there are many people

> who have a different cause for their illness and for them

> concentrating on a certain diet and detoxifying may be looking for

> their keys where the light is best rather than where they lost them.

There was a study reported in one of the CFIDS Chronicle issues (don't

recall which), that said that 80% of people with CFIDS had allergies

and/or someone in their family with immune system problems. I find that

extremely interesting, because that's basically a pre-disposition

set-up. And like I said, some people just have systems better at

detoxing, metabolizing, etc. than people who succumb.

> Also somebody should tell Sherry that we're all going to die

> anyway. Eating a perfect diet, avoiding all toxins and exercising

> religously may (or may not) add a few years to your life, but we will

> all age and eventually die in about the same time frame no matter

> what.

ROTFLMAO!!!! Oh how right you are! And there's *NO WAY* in today's

world that you could even avoid all the toxins.

> Please note that I don't want everyone to agree with what I have said.

> These are just some musings on my part and could be complete rubbish.

Hey, I'm not arguing with you, and I hope you didn't think that!

Everyone has to do what's best for them, and what *works* for them. I,

like you, am interested in exploring these issues and like to kick

around ideas. After all, that's how most important new concepts,

treatments, inventions, etc. come about in this world. ;-)

I just wish someone would kick a little harder and faster so I can get

to feeling like my old self again. I'd settle for that.

Teewinot

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Teewinot13@...

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

From: " Tomcy6 " <tomcy6@...>

" I agree but we don't know that impaired detox pathways are what makes

us all sick. For some of us that may be the answer. "

Agreed, but think multifactorial. Levels of toxic compounds in the bodies

of folk in Europe and North America are unprecedentedly high. For some,

this will be the primary factor but for others, it will be a contributory

factor too. Toxins damage the immune system and in particular, free

radicals impair cellular immunity, so even sudden-onset cases might well

have fought off the infection if their immune systems had not been

compromised.

" I have no problem with anyone trying to improve their diet or

eliminate toxins, but again the toxin overload theory does not appear

to explain all cases of CFIDS and doesn't explain why people ingesting

many many times the amount of toxins that I ever did do not get CFIDS.

" I do not want to be considered anti detox. I just want everyone to

keep in mind that we don't know what causes CFIDS and we are all very

different. "

The same point again, but bear in mind that detox is something that we can

do. What else is there at the present state of knowledge where we can be

sure that it will help everyone to various degrees?

Rob

[Guest guest]

> The same point again, but bear in mind that detox is something that we can

> do. What else is there at the present state of knowledge where we can be

> sure that it will help everyone to various degrees?

>

> Rob

>

I agree with Rob. We need to take our health into our own hands and do what

we *can* do to help our condition. I don't see telling we are all

gonna die anyway and just setting around waiting for it to happen as a

constructive way to approach this situation. We have to just accept whats

happened to us and move FORWARD looking for answers. Constant haggling over

who got what/where isn't constructive. CFS did not begin and end in Incline

Village, the horizons need to be expanded here, many of us were sick with

this DD long before the Incline village cluster and many more have and will

come after it. Doctors don't know whats causing our illness, end of story.

A person with this illness has to come to a level of acceptance of the

sitaution to stay mentally balanced and keep moving forward looking for

legitimate answers.

Marcia