Re: low adrenal output in CFS

[Guest guest]

When my MD tested my blood cortisol AM levels, it came back high, twice. So

she had me do a 24 hr urine collection for cortisol and it came back normal.

So I don't think all cases of CFS are adrenal supression, I think there are

many other factors involved in CFS. Cortisone can be a wonder drug, because

it does make one 'feel' better than they are and gives one a sense of well

being, and probably is why its used as a last resort drug at end stages and

in serious illnesses. Here again I don't think we have the evidence to

prove that one thing or another causes all cfs. For some it seems to be

worth the risk to make them feel better for awhile, and certainly is a

personal decision to consider, feeling lousy all the time gets pretty

tiresome! I " m personally continueing on Jim's FIR program since to me thats

a treatment that seems less risky.

I wish everybody well in whatever treatement choice they make, we have all

suffered enough!!!!

Marcia

low adrenal output in CFS

> Dr. Baschetti from Italy has been pounding the table since

> the early 1990s that CFS was a form of adrenal insufficiency. Its

> nice to see that he is finally being shown correct.

>

> What is absolutely amazzing to me is that modern medicine is just now

> starting to talk about weak adrenal output. My goodness, we've know

> about adrnal failure ('s) for 50 years....but nothing about

> hypofuction of these glands. In the eyes of modern medicine, your are

> either an addison's patient or you have healthy adrenal function.

> There is no half-way...or borderline adrenal patient. Since medicine

> has made no allowances for weak adrenals, we are leaft with a

> mysterey illness until medical reseacher catches up and finds out

> there is half-way notch between addison's and healthy.

>

> Dave

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Marcia,

Blood test does not give accurate results for adrenal exhaustion.It is

generally taken in he morning as fasting blood. You are hungry,this is a

stress for human body . Your pituitary signals adrenals to give stress

response and because your adrenals have rested all night and you secrete all

the cortisol you can.But if another reading is taken later in the day you

may have low cortisol.

I had the same experience.My morning cortisol level is normal,noon and

afternoon values are low and night value normal.

My endo. who did not believe saliva test results wanted me to take serum

test.I woke up with alarm clock before my routine wake-up time(stress for

me),I did not eat anything. It took me about an hour time to go to the

hospital. (Hungry for one hour,another stress)By the time my sample was

taken I was over stimulated and I know my cortisol levels were high.The test

gave high results. No surprise for me! I came back home and I could not

leave my bed for the remaining of the day.If another reading was taken in

the afternoon it would give low results.

24 hour urine collection?May also not answer because your cortisol level may

be high in the morning and low at night giving normal result.AFAIK So far

saliva test is the best one to check for adrenal exhaustion.

Best regards.

Nil

Re: low adrenal output in CFS

| When my MD tested my blood cortisol AM levels, it came back high, twice.

So

| she had me do a 24 hr urine collection for cortisol and it came back

normal.

| So I don't think all cases of CFS are adrenal supression, I think there

are

| many other factors involved in CFS. Cortisone can be a wonder drug,

because

| it does make one 'feel' better than they are and gives one a sense of well

| being, and probably is why its used as a last resort drug at end stages

and

| in serious illnesses. Here again I don't think we have the evidence to

| prove that one thing or another causes all cfs. For some it seems to be

| worth the risk to make them feel better for awhile, and certainly is a

| personal decision to consider, feeling lousy all the time gets pretty

| tiresome! I " m personally continueing on Jim's FIR program since to me

thats

| a treatment that seems less risky.

|

| I wish everybody well in whatever treatement choice they make, we have all

| suffered enough!!!!

|

[Guest guest]

)By the time my sample was

> taken I was over stimulated and I know my cortisol levels were high.The

test

> gave high results. No surprise for me! I came back home and I could not

> leave my bed for the remaining of the day.If another reading was taken in

> the afternoon it would give low results.

>

they drew the blood on me in the afternoon too when I took my 24 hr urine

collection back and that too came out normal. Course everytime I had to

drive to the drs office for anything, the event was stressful and could have

contributed to higher cortisol levels as you said. After being on the FIR

program awhile tho, driving places isn't as stressful for me now, so I'm not

in quite the same situation anymore.

Marcia

[Guest guest]

>>>>When my MD tested my blood cortisol AM levels, it came back high,

twice. So she had me do a 24 hr urine collection for cortisol and it

came back normal. So I don't think all cases of CFS are adrenal

supression,<<<<<<<

Marcia, these test are misleading in CFS since it is the failure to

respond to stress that causes the illness, not the day to day

cortisol levels of a rested CFS patient. If you have CFS you are not

working every day in a stressful job and taking care of a family and

doing all the things you did before....all the things that increased

demand for cortisol. Here is where the HPA axis failure in CFS comes

into play. Want to test for this? Then go back to your hectic and

stressful life style before CFS and then after a month or two of

running here and there, late in the afternoon of your worse day, go

to your doctor and get your cortisol tested. Now you and your doctor

might notice this crucial hormone is depleated. If it is still high

or even normal after weeks of hectic hell, then you are likely

clinically depressed and do not have CFS!

CFS is the failure of the HPA axis to boost cortisol levels during

periods of increased demand! Therefore, testing for cortisol in a

rested CFS patient is worthless and misleading unless the PWC is put

under stress for extended periods of time. Certain drugs are

available that will stress the HPA axis momentarily and supposedly

show whether or not the PWC is responding to stress but I'm convince

such test are also useless and misleading since it is a one shot

deal. I know in my own case I can go back to work and survive three

of four hectic weeks without difficulty. In fact, my state of

recovery, couple with my own treatment program, allow me to work 2-3

months before I crash into a stone wall. I even though I was fully

recovered up until about 6 months ago when I started building a new

house. My CFS returned in full force after 2 months of dealing with

all the stress of cheating contractors and all sorts of other

problems. I had to shut the project down for a few weeks until I

return to my old level of recovery. I'm happy to say that other than

allergies to many foods and chemicals, I seldom notice I have CFS. I

think my recovery is mostly because (1) I have identified most of my

hidden allergies and now avoid them, (2) because I now instinctfully

know my limits, (3) because I dose with hydrocortisone during periods

of increased demand, (4) because I accept my fate and down dwell on

it any more like I used to.

Dave

> low adrenal output in CFS

>

>

> > Dr. Baschetti from Italy has been pounding the table since

> > the early 1990s that CFS was a form of adrenal insufficiency. Its

> > nice to see that he is finally being shown correct.

> >

> > What is absolutely amazzing to me is that modern medicine is just

now

> > starting to talk about weak adrenal output. My goodness, we've

know

> > about adrnal failure ('s) for 50 years....but nothing about

> > hypofuction of these glands. In the eyes of modern medicine, your

are

> > either an addison's patient or you have healthy adrenal function.

> > There is no half-way...or borderline adrenal patient. Since

medicine

> > has made no allowances for weak adrenals, we are leaft with a

> > mysterey illness until medical reseacher catches up and finds out

> > there is half-way notch between addison's and healthy.

> >

> > Dave

> >

> >

> >

> > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dave,

I think you should know more about people before you make such ridiculous

assumptions that I do nothing but sit around and rest with a stressfree

life. Last year I had to deal with 3 lawsuits, one from an X trying to

steal my settlement (which he did because I could not afford the legal

battle), a neighbor suieing for a free road easement to sell to a developer

and destroy our property values and the area,(which has been dragging on

nearly a year now, ugly mess and still not settled) and one for a carwreck

settlement (2 yrs of living hell on that one) . I was in a horrible

carwreck, had a surgery that stopped my heart on the table, have to take

care of my husb who supports us and the home, have all the responsibilities

of the household, have horses and other animals I have to take care of, you

have NO idea what my stress levels were when I was tested. I frankly resent

you saying that if my cortisol levels didn't test low that its nothing but

clinical depression!!!!!! Believe me, I KNOW what stress is and my levels

have been off the charts for years, we had our own excavating biz for 10 yrs

(during my cfs) and I had to deal with cheating customers all the time,

sounds like you are just now finding out what stress is and does to cfs

patients when you just experienced your crash, which by your standards must

mean you are just clinically depressed by your own description below.

Marcia

low adrenal output in CFS

> >

> >

> > > Dr. Baschetti from Italy has been pounding the table since

> > > the early 1990s that CFS was a form of adrenal insufficiency. Its

> > > nice to see that he is finally being shown correct.

> > >

> > > What is absolutely amazzing to me is that modern medicine is just

> now

> > > starting to talk about weak adrenal output. My goodness, we've

> know

> > > about adrnal failure ('s) for 50 years....but nothing about

> > > hypofuction of these glands. In the eyes of modern medicine, your

> are

> > > either an addison's patient or you have healthy adrenal function.

> > > There is no half-way...or borderline adrenal patient. Since

> medicine

> > > has made no allowances for weak adrenals, we are leaft with a

> > > mysterey illness until medical reseacher catches up and finds out

> > > there is half-way notch between addison's and healthy.

> > >

> > > Dave

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

> with each

> > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

> treatment

> > discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Well, its seems to be impossible to stay on this list and post about your

personal experiences without people constantly shoving their theories down

your throat and insulting our rights to make our own decisions. I'm not up

to arguing with people and I'm sick of defending myself or my experiences.

Ironic this final straw has come from somebody who 'has all the answers' and

yet knows they all still fully limited by stress/cfs, and is 'qualified' to

tell the rest of us we are all just clinically depressed. I'm sick to death

of being told we are just depressed and not going to stick around and keep

hearing it.

I had hoped to stay on this list and share my experiences with Jim's FIR

program, as its finally something that shows promise in helping me and I've

seen substantial changes since I began. There have been a few setbacks,

recovery isn't an easy smooth road, but as I get my personal needs for the

FIR and the rest of the program elements perfected I am moving towards

health and I can't continue to read the attacking nature of this list

anymore. Each person will have to make the choice of what treatment will

work for them. Jim has been on this list and others of us doing his program

and we have given the page to sign up for Jims FIRst Aid list many times.

I'll continue posting on my progress there, but I will need to set myself at

no mail here and take a break for awhile. This list is not a healthy

environment for recovery for people, since people can't stop pushing their

theories on others and attacking their choices and experiences, it just

keeps happening again and again. I might drop back in later on, further into

the program, depending on what the nature and direction of the list is.

Right now its nothing but rehashing old theories and argueing about who's

right, attcking drs, each other, etc and thats not productive for anybody.

AND, if you don't have subclinical cortisol, you are all just depressed

anyway, from what was just shared here. (coming from somebody who crashes

the same as the rest of us when under stress). So maybe we all need to go

see shrinks and get well. Personally I have a better program to do.

Am wishing each patient recovery in whatever method they choose!

Marcia

low adrenal output in CFS

> >

> >

> > > Dr. Baschetti from Italy has been pounding the table since

> > > the early 1990s that CFS was a form of adrenal insufficiency. Its

> > > nice to see that he is finally being shown correct.

> > >

> > > What is absolutely amazzing to me is that modern medicine is just

> now

> > > starting to talk about weak adrenal output. My goodness, we've

> know

> > > about adrnal failure ('s) for 50 years....but nothing about

> > > hypofuction of these glands. In the eyes of modern medicine, your

> are

> > > either an addison's patient or you have healthy adrenal function.

> > > There is no half-way...or borderline adrenal patient. Since

> medicine

> > > has made no allowances for weak adrenals, we are leaft with a

> > > mysterey illness until medical reseacher catches up and finds out

> > > there is half-way notch between addison's and healthy.

> > >

> > > Dave

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

> with each

> > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

> treatment

> > discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Marcia.....I apologize.....I never meant to direct anything at you.

In my opinion, a PWC could never deal with what you describe below

and still be on his/her feet. My guess is you are just plain

overworked and exhausted. ly I can't imagine going through what

you're dealing with and not be flat on my back. My advice is

smile....and don't be so edgy. Your likely overloaded now and need

to rest up. No wonder your cortisol is high. :>) :>)

Dave

-- In , " Marcia " <mgrahn@t...> wrote:

> Dave,

>

> I think you should know more about people before you make such

ridiculous

> assumptions that I do nothing but sit around and rest with a

stressfree

> life. Last year I had to deal with 3 lawsuits, one from an X

trying to

> steal my settlement (which he did because I could not afford the

legal

> battle), a neighbor suieing for a free road easement to sell to a

developer

> and destroy our property values and the area,(which has been

dragging on

> nearly a year now, ugly mess and still not settled) and one for a

carwreck

> settlement (2 yrs of living hell on that one) . I was in a horrible

> carwreck, had a surgery that stopped my heart on the table, have to

take

> care of my husb who supports us and the home, have all the

responsibilities

> of the household, have horses and other animals I have to take care

of, you

> have NO idea what my stress levels were when I was tested. I

frankly resent

> you saying that if my cortisol levels didn't test low that its

nothing but

> clinical depression!!!!!! Believe me, I KNOW what stress is and my

levels

> have been off the charts for years, we had our own excavating biz

for 10 yrs

> (during my cfs) and I had to deal with cheating customers all the

time,

> sounds like you are just now finding out what stress is and does to

cfs

> patients when you just experienced your crash, which by your

standards must

> mean you are just clinically depressed by your own description

below.

>

> Marcia

> low adrenal output in CFS

> > >

> > >

> > > > Dr. Baschetti from Italy has been pounding the table

since

> > > > the early 1990s that CFS was a form of adrenal insufficiency.

Its

> > > > nice to see that he is finally being shown correct.

> > > >

> > > > What is absolutely amazzing to me is that modern medicine is

just

> > now

> > > > starting to talk about weak adrenal output. My goodness,

we've

> > know

> > > > about adrnal failure ('s) for 50 years....but nothing

about

> > > > hypofuction of these glands. In the eyes of modern medicine,

your

> > are

> > > > either an addison's patient or you have healthy adrenal

function.

> > > > There is no half-way...or borderline adrenal patient. Since

> > medicine

> > > > has made no allowances for weak adrenals, we are leaft with a

> > > > mysterey illness until medical reseacher catches up and finds

out

> > > > there is half-way notch between addison's and healthy.

> > > >

> > > > Dave

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal

experiences

> > with each

> > > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

> > treatment

> > > discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

There is no place for personal attacks like this below on this list,

especially after someone has apologized. Sarcasm sometimes doesn't

translate very well over a list like this. I would suggest that if

a list member has a problem with another list member, that they

either 1)contact the moderator, or 2)write backchannel to the

person(s) with whom they have a problem. Everyone is entilted to

an opinion.

Mike C

In , holly thomas

<darkerblonde@y...> wrote:

> Dave,,

>

> even I have to reply to this one. I have had CFS for 14 years. I

got sick when I was 18 and quite happy. I had Mono. The first thing

that happened was my cortisol was through the roof. People with CFS

do not just have low adrenal output. There is no " everyone has low

adrenal output " in order to have CFS. That's crap. I am a part of a

large support group. All of us at one time have had high cortisol.

Sometimes a pathogen hits the HPA and causes this to happen and then

the cortisol then lowers because of exhaustion. It can also be pain

(as in physical pain) that makes cortisol high. Anyway, there is no

fixed etched in stone theory that says all sufferers are adrenal

insufficient. Are you a doctor? Even if you were it wouldn't matter

because as we all know they don't know much either.

>

> You were insulting to her and insulting to many of us who have had

high cortisol at one time. You are not a doctor, nor are many in

this group and a lot of people on this website need to get over

themselves. The freaking theorizing and (actually I would like to

use another more potent word than freaking) all this dam hypothesis'

and that's all they are. No one knows anything, and you know how I am

convinced of this? Because you wouldn't be here looking at this

right now. You'd be out living your life, minding your business,

instead of looking at this mystery disease on . I know I would,

this is the last place I would be. So instead of telling her to calm

down, even with your apology, do more research...

[Guest guest]

Hi Holly,

> It really depends on the test that you use. I have had a few saliva tests by

different labs and their markers are different. Even if it's in the normal

range...hence low normal range it can drain you. The problem with these tests

is the measurement always changes. IF you read Dr. Poesnecker's book, " It's

only natural " anything can stimulate the adrenals and sleep can put them to

sleep!! In the morning I am a > zombie.

Well, that makes sense. I know different ranges, etc. are used by

different labs on other tests, too. To get technical for a moment...

Did my collection at 7:15 am. My result was 2.94 ng/ml. The range for

A.M. collection is 1.0-8.0 ng/ml. So, that would be low normal.

The real shocker was my DHEA. It was 314.2 pg/ml! The normal range for

my age is 47-200 pg/ml.

I generally wake up okay. Some mornings I am a bit tired, especially if

I did a lot before or stayed up later than normal. I tend to really

slow down around 10:00 p.m., but never go to bed before 11:00 pm. Often

stay up till midnight.

My problem is more lack of stamina than constant fatigue. I've been

sick for 14 years and my symptoms have changed over time. The first few

years, I couldn't stay awake. I'd fall asleep at work while typing on

the computer!

Anyway, it would appear my adrenals are up to *something*. Just need to

figure out what!

Teewinot

@>--}-- * --{--<@

Teewinot13@...

[Guest guest]

> Hi Holly,

Well, that makes sense. I know different ranges, etc. are used by

> different labs on other tests, too. To get technical for a

moment...

> Did my collection at 7:15 am. My result was 2.94 ng/ml. The

range for

> A.M. collection is 1.0-8.0 ng/ml. So, that would be low normal.

>

> The real shocker was my DHEA. It was 314.2 pg/ml! The normal

range for

> my age is 47-200 pg/ml.

This was similar to me and as mentioned before it is indicative of

underfunctioning adrenals OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. Dr Peatfield,

here in the UK writes about this in his latest book and also Dr

Jeffries mentions it.

If you were treated with hydrocortisone or Prednisone you would find

that you have much greater stamina, feel great and the DHEA would

come down into normal ranges. This happened within a few months of

treatment and my DHEA is now normal.

Pam

[Guest guest]

doggy532001 wrote:

> This was similar to me and as mentioned before it is indicative of

> underfunctioning adrenals OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. Dr Peatfield,

> here in the UK writes about this in his latest book and also Dr

> Jeffries mentions it.

>

> If you were treated with hydrocortisone or Prednisone you would find

> that you have much greater stamina, feel great and the DHEA would

> come down into normal ranges. This happened within a few months of

> treatment and my DHEA is now normal.

I'm severely allergic to prednisone! That seems to shock most people.

Also I can't take steroids orally since they aggravate hiatal hernias,

which I have. I'll be taking these results with me when I see Dr.

Klimas in October. Thanks for responding.

Teewinot

@>--}-- * --{--<@

Teewinot13@...

[Guest guest]

doggy532001 wrote:

> This was similar to me and as mentioned before it is indicative of

> underfunctioning adrenals OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. Dr Peatfield,

> here in the UK writes about this in his latest book and also Dr

> Jeffries mentions it.

>

> If you were treated with hydrocortisone or Prednisone you would find

> that you have much greater stamina, feel great and the DHEA would

> come down into normal ranges. This happened within a few months of

> treatment and my DHEA is now normal.

I'm severely allergic to prednisone! That seems to shock most people.

Also I can't take steroids orally since they aggravate hiatal hernias,

which I have. I'll be taking these results with me when I see Dr.

Klimas in October. Thanks for responding.

Teewinot

@>--}-- * --{--<@

Teewinot13@...

[Guest guest]

I would like to second what Dave said.

I was " chatting " with Dr. Cheney just yesterday, and he

said " Cortisol inversion is one of the hallmarks of CFS " . This

means that a CFS patient, under stress, will invert the normal

cortisol response, rather than cortisol going up, it goes down.

Incidentally, he was unfamilar with the Every Third Day idea, but

thought it sounded " OK " ,and signed off for me to experiemnt wit it.

Zippy

=========================================================

> Marcia, these test are misleading in CFS since it is the failure to

> respond to stress that causes the illness, not the day to day

> cortisol levels of a rested CFS patient. If you have CFS you are

not

> working every day in a stressful job and taking care of a family

and

> doing all the things you did before....all the things that

increased

> demand for cortisol. Here is where the HPA axis failure in CFS

comes

> into play. Want to test for this? Then go back to your hectic and

> stressful life style before CFS and then after a month or two of

> running here and there, late in the afternoon of your worse day, go

> to your doctor and get your cortisol tested. Now you and your

doctor

> might notice this crucial hormone is depleated. If it is still high

> or even normal after weeks of hectic hell, then you are likely

> clinically depressed and do not have CFS!

>

> CFS is the failure of the HPA axis to boost cortisol levels during

> periods of increased demand! Therefore, testing for cortisol in a

> rested CFS patient is worthless and misleading unless the PWC is

put

> under stress for extended periods of time. Certain drugs are

> available that will stress the HPA axis momentarily and supposedly

> show whether or not the PWC is responding to stress but I'm

convince

> such test are also useless and misleading since it is a one shot

> deal. I know in my own case I can go back to work and survive

three

> of four hectic weeks without difficulty. In fact, my state of

> recovery, couple with my own treatment program, allow me to work 2-

3

> months before I crash into a stone wall. I even though I was fully

> recovered up until about 6 months ago when I started building a new

> house. My CFS returned in full force after 2 months of dealing

with

> all the stress of cheating contractors and all sorts of other

> problems. I had to shut the project down for a few weeks until I

> return to my old level of recovery. I'm happy to say that other

than

> allergies to many foods and chemicals, I seldom notice I have CFS.

I

> think my recovery is mostly because (1) I have identified most of

my

> hidden allergies and now avoid them, (2) because I now

instinctfully

> know my limits, (3) because I dose with hydrocortisone during

periods

> of increased demand, (4) because I accept my fate and down dwell on

> it any more like I used to.

>

> Dave

>