Re: ESR/Sed Rate

[Guest guest]

This is interesting. My personal theory is that we are hypovolemic to

maintain normal tonicity (concentration of stuff in the blood). If we’re

hypotonic, every nutrient that relies on a concentration gradient to get

into the cell, would not be able to get in, and might actually flow out of

the cells into the blood. Just a theory.

Barb

Re: ESR/Sed Rate

Rich,

Thanks for the further explanation. I'm sure that the hypertonic

solution that produced the cell structure deformations in that

picture was much more hypertonic than would be found in blood. Per

info in the " Cell Physiology Sourcebook " an acidic pH in the cell

could possibly affect the cytoskeletal structure of the cell.

Another possibility that I've thought about is that when

constructing the RBC maybe their was not sufficient resources to

build it properly. But with the tight controls that the body has on

everything I doubt that that may be the case. It would probably not

build the RBC until all required ingredients were available.

All the best,

Jim

> Jim,

>

> That really is a pretty picture, but the blood in PWCs is usually

> not found to be hypertonic, and that type of cell shape is not what

> Les predominately sees. Blood chemistry panels usually show the

> electrolytes and proteins to be in the normal ranges in PWCs. It's

> important to keep in mind that the concentration of each of these

> solutes is controlled, and when the blood plasma volume decreases

by

> excessive urination, for example, the separate control systems

> continue to control the concentrations of the major electrolytes.

>

> Rich

>

[Guest guest]

Barb, Bedrest causes a decrease in blood volume. I don't remember why. I think

the fluid seeps into the tissues. Standing causes an increase in extracelluar

pressure if I remember right. Not all nutrients flow into the cells by osmosis,

some by active transport.

Re: ESR/Sed Rate

Rich,

Thanks for the further explanation. I'm sure that the hypertonic

solution that produced the cell structure deformations in that

picture was much more hypertonic than would be found in blood. Per

info in the " Cell Physiology Sourcebook " an acidic pH in the cell

could possibly affect the cytoskeletal structure of the cell.

Another possibility that I've thought about is that when

constructing the RBC maybe their was not sufficient resources to

build it properly. But with the tight controls that the body has on

everything I doubt that that may be the case. It would probably not

build the RBC until all required ingredients were available.

All the best,

Jim

> Jim,

>

> That really is a pretty picture, but the blood in PWCs is usually

> not found to be hypertonic, and that type of cell shape is not what

> Les predominately sees. Blood chemistry panels usually show the

> electrolytes and proteins to be in the normal ranges in PWCs. It's

> important to keep in mind that the concentration of each of these

> solutes is controlled, and when the blood plasma volume decreases

by

> excessive urination, for example, the separate control systems

> continue to control the concentrations of the major electrolytes.

>

> Rich

>

[Guest guest]

I’d put this more tactfully, but I’m tired. A lot of medicine is whacked.

The “reasons” why many things are done the way they are, aren’t good. For

example, ego sometimes comes into play. It’s common in medicine to make

assumptions and guesses, announce them as fact (dogma, actually), and pass

them on to the next generation of doctors, most of whom swallow them whole.

I definitely believe in the brevity of wisdom, but that’s to be

distinguished from the foolishness of sound bites--which comprise a fair

portion of medical “knowledge”.

I’m amazed at how much bad science I see in a medical context. For example,

there’ll be a report on a study, that shows a correlation between 2 factors.

The researcher then reports that one caused the other, when there’s no

evidence of causation. I read recently that a study showed that people who

sleep a lot, die younger than those who sleep 8 (?) hours a night.

Therefore, they concluded, too much sleep is bad for your health. The study

included a wide range of people, including very sick ones. So there’s a

correlation between amt of sleep and age of death, but causation has not

been established. Sick people are likely to sleep more, and if their sleep

is cut back instead of getting as much as their body dictates, I postulate

they’d die even sooner. The conclusion was assumed and unsupported by the

study.

Another example comes to mind. I was taught that increasing maternal age is

a risk factor for Down’s Syndrome. I thought, “What about the fathers?

There’s a high correlation between increasing maternal age, and increasing

paternal age. Maybe it’s not the mother’s age that’s relevant, but the

father’s. Or maybe both are relevant.” I heard on the news a few days ago

that “they” are now linking increasing paternal age with increased

likelihood of birth defect(s). (I think they specifically said Down’s

Syndrome, but don’t remember for sure.)

There’s a lot of bad science out there. What about when a doctor says

“There’s nothing wrong with you” when you know you’re sick. NO doctor can

say that. They would have to test every known factor and every one for

which a test hasn’t even been invented, and all come up negative, before

they say any such thing—an impossibility. All the doctor can say is, “All

the tests I’ve run so far have come back normal.”

I’ve been told there’s nothing wrong with me even when half my tests are

abnormal. I won’t go into the character of someone who lies to his/her

patients, and assumes they’ll believe it. Oh, yeah, right, I can’t walk,

can’t talk, my heart rate is 120,for hours on end while I lie on the gurney,

I run a fever every day of my life, etc…and there’s nothing wrong with me.

“Thanks so much for telling me! I was starting to worry.” LOL

Barb

Re: ESR/Sed Rate

rich

thanks for posting so much info on this topic.

i'm not so much frustrated by my DR's interpretation of the ESR, but

as to why the reference range is for the test is 0-15 (0-20, i have

seen it that too).

To me, that means that when they developed the test, for some reason

they determined that you can be healthy and have a sed rate of " 0 "

what we seem to be saying here is that you can't have a sed rate

of " 0 " and be healthy because with a sed rate of 0, your RBC's are

not settling properly.

i can see why interpreting the cause of a low sed rate would be

complicated, but i can't see why recognizing that a Sed rate of " 0 "

is unhealthy is....

At some point the developers of this test or those who set up

guidelines for the test looked at it and said that a sed rate of " 0 "

is healthy.

and i'm just trying to figure out what that rationale is....

thanks

bill

> > > > > Jim,

> > > > >

> > > > > That really is a pretty picture, but the blood in PWCs is

> > usually

> > > > > not found to be hypertonic, and that type of cell shape is

> not

> > > what

> > > > > Les predominately sees. Blood chemistry panels usually

show

> > the

> > > > > electrolytes and proteins to be in the normal ranges in

> PWCs.

> > > It's

> > > > > important to keep in mind that the concentration of each of

> > these

> > > > > solutes is controlled, and when the blood plasma volume

> > decreases

> > > > by

> > > > > excessive urination, for example, the separate control

> systems

> > > > > continue to control the concentrations of the major

> > electrolytes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Rich

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Aha! An answer to my mental pondering. Or at least part of the answer.

Thanks, Tony! I know I have a lot of puffiness. So that's where the fluid

is that should be in the blood. I'm familiar with active transport, but my

theory was based on the fact that other nutrients depend on a concentration

gradient, and with my ATP so low, all processes are slowed up, including the

ones needed to turn chow into metabolically useful nutrients.

barb

Re: Re: ESR/Sed Rate

Barb, Bedrest causes a decrease in blood volume. I don't remember why. I

think the fluid seeps into the tissues. Standing causes an increase in

extracelluar pressure if I remember right. Not all nutrients flow into the

cells by osmosis, some by active transport.

Re: ESR/Sed Rate

Rich,

Thanks for the further explanation. I'm sure that the hypertonic

solution that produced the cell structure deformations in that

picture was much more hypertonic than would be found in blood. Per

info in the " Cell Physiology Sourcebook " an acidic pH in the cell

could possibly affect the cytoskeletal structure of the cell.

Another possibility that I've thought about is that when

constructing the RBC maybe their was not sufficient resources to

build it properly. But with the tight controls that the body has on

everything I doubt that that may be the case. It would probably not

build the RBC until all required ingredients were available.

All the best,

Jim

> Jim,

>

> That really is a pretty picture, but the blood in PWCs is usually

> not found to be hypertonic, and that type of cell shape is not what

> Les predominately sees. Blood chemistry panels usually show the

> electrolytes and proteins to be in the normal ranges in PWCs. It's

> important to keep in mind that the concentration of each of these

> solutes is controlled, and when the blood plasma volume decreases

by

> excessive urination, for example, the separate control systems

> continue to control the concentrations of the major electrolytes.

>

> Rich

>