Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 > The logic is that in the evolutionary process of germs the ones that kill > their source of life end up dying out. The ones that mutate to where they > just cause chronic illness get to live a long time. Now these critters don't > have a mind to figure this out but it is just that this type of bug gets to > live longer because its food source lives longer. a, Bugs that grow fast and are easily transmitted from one host to the other can cause mild things like the common cold that jumps from host to host quickly causing only symptoms of sneezing and coughing that will enable them to leave one host for another, thus surviving quite well without killing the host nor ending up dead (as a species) as many bugs can escape to another host. Others can spread easily and yet kill their hosts very quickly (Ebola) " our " kinds of infections which require vectors cannot " afford " to kill us quickly as it is pretty obvious that their chances of finding another host themselves is very slim, so their best strategy is to keep us alive as long as possible; as when we die they die. Nelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 I recall this from an early researcher studying the viral angle; " This is a smart virus, it knows how not to kill it's host " In the years of " Lying in State " I sensed " Agent X " using every cell in my body (in other words, my life). I told those close I felt like was disintegrating on a cell level. My Dad read me a paper using the term " pirating the cells " . If I remained still, then after awhile, I got to use them lol. THese were my windows of functioning--- Once I screamed " Get the Hell out of me!!!!!!! " It felt great A first article written on Living With CFS was titled " Dancing With the Serpent " . So I can scream and attempt to purge,kill (research and treatments), other times dance with/around.My partner suggested I not share these perceptions/visuals with the doctors who were pushing for anti-depressants. Katrina In , " a Carnes " <pj7@l...> wrote:> Marcia asks:> What I don't understand is, if we have such resistant, super infections, why> aren't we dead?> > The logic is that in the evolutionary process of germs the ones that kill> their source of life end up dying out. The ones that mutate to where they> just cause chronic illness get to live a long time. Now these critters don't> have a mind to figure this out but it is just that this type of bug gets to> live longer because its food source lives longer.> a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 > In , " a Carnes " <pj7@l...> wrote:> Marcia asks:> What I don't understand is, if we have such resistant, super infections, why> aren't we dead?> > The logic is that in the evolutionary process of germs the ones that kill> their source of life end up dying out. The ones that mutate to where they> just cause chronic illness get to live a long time. Now these critters don't> have a mind to figure this out but it is just that this type of bug gets to> live > longer because its food source lives longer.> a Read " Virus X: Tracking the New Killer Plagues, Out of the Present and Into the Future " by , M.D. It will really open your eyes. I read this a few years ago. None of the new illnesses cropping up, like SARS, surprises me at all. I'm sure that it is just the beginning. Teewinot @>--}-- * --{--<@ Teewinot13@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Nelly, I used this argument (which I was aware of before, so not accusing you) on a doctor today and he came straight back with " nonsense, what about the plague, there are lots of vector borne diseases that kill their hosts. Your argument is wrong. " ANy further thoughts, bec I wanted to use this argument elsewhere? n >Others can spread easily and yet kill their hosts very quickly (Ebola) > " our " kinds of infections which require vectors cannot " afford " to kill us >quickly as it is pretty obvious that their chances of finding another host >themselves is very slim, so their best strategy is to keep us alive as long >as possible; as when we die they die. n Canberra, Australia http://members.austarmetro.com.au/~julian/photo-an/photo-an.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Hi n Your doctor is using the side of the argument that assumes that the pathogen is going to cause an ACUTE infection; he's totally ignoring CHRONIC low-grade infections. As an example, if we look at the info about toxic staph in the sinuses, then in the general population there are supposedly 30% who have one toxic staph strain up there and it doesn't affect them. But what isn't shown is how many people have 2 or 3 or more toxic staph strains in their sinuses, as has been shown by several on this list who have had testing done. None of these strains by themselves make us ill, but combined they can certainly knock us about. Dave > Nelly, I used this argument (which I was aware of before, so not accusing > you) on a doctor today and he came straight back with " nonsense, what about > the plague, there are lots of vector borne diseases that kill their > hosts. Your argument is wrong. " ANy further thoughts, bec I wanted to use > this argument elsewhere? > > n > > >Others can spread easily and yet kill their hosts very quickly (Ebola) > > " our " kinds of infections which require vectors cannot " afford " to kill us > >quickly as it is pretty obvious that their chances of finding another host > >themselves is very slim, so their best strategy is to keep us alive as long > >as possible; as when we die they die. > > > > > > n > Canberra, Australia > http://members.austarmetro.com.au/~julian/photo-an/photo-an.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 > Nelly, I used this argument (which I was aware of before, so not accusing > you) on a doctor today and he came straight back with " nonsense, what about > the plague, there are lots of vector borne diseases that kill their > hosts. Your argument is wrong. " I never said that vector borne illnesses didn't kill their hosts. I was speaking of " our " kind of diseases, meaning tick borne illnesses like Bb (Lyme) or Rickettsiae or Babesia in their CHRONIC forms. Humans are not the usual hosts for most vector borne diseases, so to understand how the bugs might have evolved and how virulent they will be we need to look at the natural hosts and what it does to THEM. So I agree I should not have said anything re humans as they might not have influenced the way spirochetes like Bb have evolved. The question is not what the plague does to humans but what it does to rats as we humans are not the " natural " hosts of Pasturella pestis (the plague spreads through rat fleas) so from an evolutionary perspective, what matters is whether the plague kills rats. From what I have read it sometimes does and it sometimes doesn't, in any case giving the bug enough time to be passed on (which is all that matters for it). In a not so distant past when rats were plentiful and lived in close contact with people everybody absolutely everybody had fleas anyway, so easily contaminated. So although the plague requires vectors, the vectors are so common and can pass the bug so readily that whether it kills humans or not is not relevant. Your doctor is quite right many vector borne illnesses can kill their hosts of course, Babesia often kills the mamals it infects when the animal's body cannot contain the infection, but obviously and by definition if the bug is still going strong it is killing or not killing just enough (but not more) of its hosts. Malaria does kill some people but not all, most people who survive it as children will remain infected and will enable it to be passed on through mosquitoes. So again, we are speaking CHRONIC here, and I maintain that many vector borne illnesses use chronic or silent carriers to be efficiently transmitted. In the case of Bb mice, deer, etc are the hosts, and they need to be mobile to transmit as they don't live in large colonies in confined spaces like rats (re the plague). Look, I am aware that anything I could write here and now will necessarily be very incomplete (and even flawed!) as I would need to spend a lot more time and energy on the topic and I prefer to get on with the business of finding ways to get rid of the damn bugs. But I understand that as we are doing so much guessing it is important to get as much of our facts right. Nelly ANy further thoughts, bec I wanted to use > this argument elsewhere? > > n > > >Others can spread easily and yet kill their hosts very quickly (Ebola) > > " our " kinds of infections which require vectors cannot " afford " to kill us > >quickly as it is pretty obvious that their chances of finding another host > >themselves is very slim, so their best strategy is to keep us alive as long > >as possible; as when we die they die. > n > Canberra, Australia > http://members.austarmetro.com.au/~julian/photo-an/photo-an.htm > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Hi There was a historical study done on demography and the major plague outbreaks in Europe (sorry I don't know the details) The study findings were that the major plague outbreaks happened at times when the population had grown to the extent that marginal land had to be drawn into cultivation to feed them. The marginal land was of poor value and hence why it wasn't used until absolutely necessary. The food from this land was poor in nutrients and the population eating it therefore became weakened. The plague came along and killed lots of them. The marginal land was no longer used. The survivors strengthened and society continued to gradually grow until the same thing happened again. The point of this study was that plague only really kills people that are already weakened. Particularly poor city dwellers. Interestingly in the great plague in Britain in the 17th century it was remarked by the lord mayor of London that the plague had not taken anyone of high estate even though they had often continued to live in London. They probably were better fed and healthier Re: Why aren't we dead? > Nelly, I used this argument (which I was aware of before, so not accusing > you) on a doctor today and he came straight back with " nonsense, what about > the plague, there are lots of vector borne diseases that kill their > hosts. Your argument is wrong. " I never said that vector borne illnesses didn't kill their hosts. I was speaking of " our " kind of diseases, meaning tick borne illnesses like Bb (Lyme) or Rickettsiae or Babesia in their CHRONIC forms. Humans are not the usual hosts for most vector borne diseases, so to understand how the bugs might have evolved and how virulent they will be we need to look at the natural hosts and what it does to THEM. So I agree I should not have said anything re humans as they might not have influenced the way spirochetes like Bb have evolved. The question is not what the plague does to humans but what it does to rats as we humans are not the " natural " hosts of Pasturella pestis (the plague spreads through rat fleas) so from an evolutionary perspective, what matters is whether the plague kills rats. From what I have read it sometimes does and it sometimes doesn't, in any case giving the bug enough time to be passed on (which is all that matters for it). In a not so distant past when rats were plentiful and lived in close contact with people everybody absolutely everybody had fleas anyway, so easily contaminated. So although the plague requires vectors, the vectors are so common and can pass the bug so readily that whether it kills humans or not is not relevant. Your doctor is quite right many vector borne illnesses can kill their hosts of course, Babesia often kills the mamals it infects when the animal's body cannot contain the infection, but obviously and by definition if the bug is still going strong it is killing or not killing just enough (but not more) of its hosts. Malaria does kill some people but not all, most people who survive it as children will remain infected and will enable it to be passed on through mosquitoes. So again, we are speaking CHRONIC here, and I maintain that many vector borne illnesses use chronic or silent carriers to be efficiently transmitted. In the case of Bb mice, deer, etc are the hosts, and they need to be mobile to transmit as they don't live in large colonies in confined spaces like rats (re the plague). Look, I am aware that anything I could write here and now will necessarily be very incomplete (and even flawed!) as I would need to spend a lot more time and energy on the topic and I prefer to get on with the business of finding ways to get rid of the damn bugs. But I understand that as we are doing so much guessing it is important to get as much of our facts right. Nelly ANy further thoughts, bec I wanted to use > this argument elsewhere? > > n > > >Others can spread easily and yet kill their hosts very quickly (Ebola) > > " our " kinds of infections which require vectors cannot " afford " to kill us > >quickly as it is pretty obvious that their chances of finding another host > >themselves is very slim, so their best strategy is to keep us alive as long > >as possible; as when we die they die. > n > Canberra, Australia > http://members.austarmetro.com.au/~julian/photo-an/photo-an.htm > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Remember the correlation to " type A " personalities that got this illness the monicker of " the Yuppie flu " ? Seems like this illness has more of a propensity to strike people with the STRONGEST immune response. Looks like the immune system is going after something that it just can't get at as hard as it can. It almost appears as if CFS doesn't kill you outright and quickly because just about the time you feel sickest, your immune system runs out of steam and gives you a bit of a break. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 > > > The point of this study was that plague only really kills people that are already weakened. Particularly poor city dwellers. Interestingly in the great plague in Britain in the 17th century it was remarked by the lord mayor of London that the plague had not taken anyone of high estate even though they had often continued to live in London. They probably were better fed and healthier > > , to me this is the real point. We are riddled with so many infections, but I think that says less about how virulent the 'bug's' are and more about how weak our immune systems are, and we need to find out what is causing the weakened immune systems. If we don't get the immune system fixed, it doesn't matter how many bugs we kill, our systems will never be able to keep them at bay and treatment will have to continue forever, or until the 'host' is weakened' by the side effects of the treatments (which were created for short term issues). We will never be well until we can 'fix' or strengthen the immune system. If these superbugs are so virulent, why are our families well, and nearly all those around us are well? We mention mobile homes as a trigger, yet I live in an area that is probably 80% mobiles homes and I don't know one other person with CFS but me. It has not affected the health of hundreds of other people I know that live in mobile homes. We need to figure out how to fix the immune sysem so we don't succumb to every little bug that comes along! JMO....Marcia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2003 Report Share Posted May 16, 2003 I'm of the belief that it hits those of us with strong immune systems. Otherwise we probably would be dead. It's just one too many things for the body to handle, but when you consider everything it is handling, it's doing a pretty remarkable job. I know people who HAVE eradicated their bacteria and ARE once again living active lives. One is a pain managment doctor here in San Diego, who's infection was in her jaw. It took her 3 years on and off i.v. abx, but she's better, and she still has root canals! I can definitely tell you that I'm feeling better and stronger by the day. And I know I still have a major infection in my jaw that needs to be dealt with, but clearing my sinuses has had a big impact already. penny > > > > > > > > The point of this study was that plague only really kills people that are already weakened. Particularly poor city dwellers. Interestingly in the great plague in Britain in the 17th century it was remarked by the lord mayor of London that the plague had not taken anyone of high estate even though they had often continued to live in London. They probably were better fed and healthier > > > > > > , > > to me this is the real point. We are riddled with so many infections, but I think that says less about how virulent the 'bug's' are and more about how weak our immune systems are, and we need to find out what is causing the weakened immune systems. If we don't get the immune system fixed, it doesn't matter how many bugs we kill, our systems will never be able to keep them at bay and > treatment will have to continue forever, or until the 'host' is weakened' by the side effects of the treatments (which were created for short term issues). We will never be well until we can 'fix' or strengthen the immune system. If these superbugs are so virulent, why are our families well, and nearly all those around us are well? We mention mobile homes as a trigger, yet I live in an > area that is probably 80% mobiles homes and I don't know one other person with CFS but me. It has not affected the health of hundreds of other people I know that live in mobile homes. We need to figure out how to fix the immune sysem so we don't succumb to every little bug that comes along! > > JMO....Marcia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2003 Report Share Posted May 16, 2003 Penny I'm of a similar mind to you, but with variations....... I personally think that these infections with us are becoming chronic with us because we have decent immune systems. But, since the hemolysins produced by the bacteria are also antibiotic by nature then if we have a less virulent bacteria at a site of infection then a new more virulent bacteria is kept under control by the toxins from the lesser bug. The other side of the coin is that those with lesser immune systems will get an acute infection which is treated vigorously, whereas ours lingers as a chronic infection until the damage is done. Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point of this study was that plague only really kills people > that are already weakened. Particularly poor city dwellers. > Interestingly in the great plague in Britain in the 17th century it > was remarked by the lord mayor of London that the plague had not > taken anyone of high estate even though they had often continued to > live in London. They probably were better fed and healthier > > > > > > > > > > , > > > > to me this is the real point. We are riddled with so many > infections, but I think that says less about how virulent the 'bug's' > are and more about how weak our immune systems are, and we need to > find out what is causing the weakened immune systems. If we don't get > the immune system fixed, it doesn't matter how many bugs we kill, our > systems will never be able to keep them at bay and > > treatment will have to continue forever, or until the 'host' is > weakened' by the side effects of the treatments (which were created > for short term issues). We will never be well until we can 'fix' or > strengthen the immune system. If these superbugs are so virulent, > why are our families well, and nearly all those around us are well? > We mention mobile homes as a trigger, yet I live in an > > area that is probably 80% mobiles homes and I don't know one other > person with CFS but me. It has not affected the health of hundreds of > other people I know that live in mobile homes. We need to figure out > how to fix the immune sysem so we don't succumb to every little bug > that comes along! > > > > JMO....Marcia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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