Re: Problem with Esoterix-

[Guest guest]

,

Wow this is very interesting! I came across this file and it might be

of interest to everyone

http://www.dobugsneeddrugs.org/healthcare/antimicrobial/CommensalandPa

thogenicOrganismsSpecificBody.pdf

I hope I entered it correctly. Basically, it's a chart that shows

Coagulase Negative Staph as a Normal Commensal where as Staph Aureus

can be very pathogenic. Itlists and charts other germs and whether

it is considered commensal or pathogenic.

Perhaps it is a normal commensal in your sister?

Does a high score on the testing really reflect infection? In your

sister's case probably not especially if she is healthy.

I really don't think it has anything to do with the accuracy of the

lab they are merely reporting what they see. But who knows?

-Jan

> Hi Folks,

>

> I thought I would pass this along. My Dr. and Dr. Shoemaker told

me to get

> my family members tested who live with me in my house. So we

tested my

> sister (who is in perfect health and has more energy then she knows

what to

> do with) and the test came back that she is severely infected with

Staph

> Epidermidis. Well this just didn't make that much sense because

she is

> perfectly healthy. Even is she doesn't have the HLA-DR genotype

for staph or

> mold and even if she doesn't have low MSH, her 3+ staph result

should most

> likely be making her sick because a 3+ means large infection

Esoterix told

> us. So what is the deal here, is the Esoterix staph test for my

sister

> really accurate?

>

> In addition, I got back my nasal swab tests..I did two of them.

One came

> back 1+ for staph epidermidis and it was resistant to every single

antibiotic

> except one. Then my other staph test came back as 3+ and it was

NOT

> resistant to any antibiotics. So this is a huge contridiction..the

worse

> infection wasn't resistant to any antibiotics and the small

infection was

> resistant to almost all antibiotics.

>

> We are starting to wonder based on my test results from Esoterix

and my

> sisters test results from Esoterix if Esoterix nasal tests are any

good. My

> dr. is kind of scratching his head at this point and now doesn't

want to use

> Esoterix anymore. Basically why are we using this test from

Esoterix if a

> perfectly healthy person can test positive for it?? I am assuming

that my

> sister will not have low MSH and will not have the genotype for

staph and

> mold because if she really has this staph it is not making her

sick. The

> question is... will the staph (if she really has it) eventually

make her sick

> and start to lower her MSH?? I am now confused as to if we should

believe

> these results from Esoterix.

>

> Any comments or suggestions?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Just out of curiosity were the 2 swabs sent in for you taken on

the same day? Again, they are reporting what they see but I would

definitely NOT want to do treatment based on your results.

Did you insurance company cover your testing? I certainly wouldn't

pay for any testing at this lab with the results you got.

-Jan

-- In , gettinghealthyto@a... wrote:

> Hi Folks,

>

> I thought I would pass this along. My Dr. and Dr. Shoemaker told

me to get

> my family members tested who live with me in my house. So we

tested my

> sister (who is in perfect health and has more energy then she knows

what to

> do with) and the test came back that she is severely infected with

Staph

> Epidermidis. Well this just didn't make that much sense because

she is

> perfectly healthy. Even is she doesn't have the HLA-DR genotype

for staph or

> mold and even if she doesn't have low MSH, her 3+ staph result

should most

> likely be making her sick because a 3+ means large infection

Esoterix told

> us. So what is the deal here, is the Esoterix staph test for my

sister

> really accurate?

>

> In addition, I got back my nasal swab tests..I did two of them.

One came

> back 1+ for staph epidermidis and it was resistant to every single

antibiotic

> except one. Then my other staph test came back as 3+ and it was

NOT

> resistant to any antibiotics. So this is a huge contridiction..the

worse

> infection wasn't resistant to any antibiotics and the small

infection was

> resistant to almost all antibiotics.

>

> We are starting to wonder based on my test results from Esoterix

and my

> sisters test results from Esoterix if Esoterix nasal tests are any

good. My

> dr. is kind of scratching his head at this point and now doesn't

want to use

> Esoterix anymore. Basically why are we using this test from

Esoterix if a

> perfectly healthy person can test positive for it?? I am assuming

that my

> sister will not have low MSH and will not have the genotype for

staph and

> mold because if she really has this staph it is not making her

sick. The

> question is... will the staph (if she really has it) eventually

make her sick

> and start to lower her MSH?? I am now confused as to if we should

believe

> these results from Esoterix.

>

> Any comments or suggestions?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/21/03 6:10:13 AM Pacific Standard Time,

winsomme@... writes:

> KAren

>

> the MSH and the HLA-DR (Leptin and others too) are the most important

> piece of the puzzle. CNS is generally considered a harmless bacteria

> in the nasal passage when a person has a normal MSH and no genetic

> suceptibility. but when the MSH drops, the mucuos membrane that

> prevents passgae of the CNS toxins from entering your bloodstream is

> weakened. thus, the toxins begin to readily enter your system

> resulting in the downward spiral.

>

> I think one of the main points of DR Shoemaker is that the CNS is not

> causing and infection per say. they are just colonizers. the real

> damge is being done by the neurotoxins produced by the CNS.

>

> if you sister has a normal MSH, then she more than likely will not be

> affected by the CNS. this is why most people with CNS are not sick

> with this condition.

>

> Take this all with a grain of salt because i don't really know what

> i'm talking about. this is all secondhand info. If there is any way

> you can see Dr Shoemaker, it will put many of your questions to rest.

> He is very thorough and very easy to talk to in person.

>

> thanks

> bill

>

> PS - the CNS that are Abx suceptible are treated differently that

> ones that are methicillin resistant.

Hi Bill, thank you for writing. I will answer some questions and ask some

below. I am not being rude with my questions I am just asking them to get us

all thinking about this..about what the real truth is about CNS. We all need

to work together in this.

You mentioned in your post that the staph really isn't the problem for my

sister it's only a problem if her MSH is low and if she has the correct

genotype on the HLA-DR test. But is what I am trying to stress is that this

is wrong. Esoterix said that a 3+ infection of Staph is a " TRUE " infection.

It would damage anyone in the general public. It is a true staph infection.

They said a 1+ or a 2+ isn't that bad but a 3+ or 4+ would get anyone sick.

Her test (and mine) came back as 3+. I am sick and she is perfectly healthy.

So something might be wrong with the test she did at Esoterix, she will be

doing another culture to put an end to this guessing once and for all.

You also mentioned this staph is about not the staph infection itself but

more about the staph releasing a bad toxin that makes us sick. Then the real

question is if she really does have a 3+ infection then why are my staph

releasing bad toxins but hers are not??

In addition, you said to talk to Dr. Shoemaker and he can answer all these

questions. I have been going back and forth about if mentioning this is the

right thing to do but here I go. Lynn has made Dr. Shoemaker out to be a GOD

(practically). Myself and my dr. have had three consultations with Dr.

Shoemaker. All I will now say about this is that we will never look to him

for advise again. I have heard from four different people that he is cocky,

arrogant, and just about everything else in the book. I didn't believe them

because Lynn was talking so highly of him. I have now found out for myself

the real truth. Even my dr. is disgusted with him. So please don't jump

down my throat about this, I know dr. shoemaker is helping some people..this

is just my opinion. I would never in a million years advise someone to go to

him for an appointment...EVER!! Again, this is just my opinion.

Lastly, you mentioned about the staph being methicillin resistant. This is

the real kicker. My sister has been on Antibiotics twice in her entire life.

Once in 4th grade and once in 9th grade. And she came up Methicillin

resistant. We also find this odd but again we are testing her again to get

to the bottom of all of this.

Thanks again Bill for writing. We all need to keep talking about this. We

all need to keep learning.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/21/03 1:27:25 AM Pacific Standard Time,

skyqtee@... writes:

> ,

> Just out of curiosity were the 2 swabs sent in for you taken on

> the same day? Again, they are reporting what they see but I would

> definitely NOT want to do treatment based on your results.

> Did you insurance company cover your testing? I certainly wouldn't

> pay for any testing at this lab with the results you got.

> -Jan

No, they were taken on different day but I felt exactly the same both days.

Yes, the paid for the test,

[Guest guest]

KAren

the MSH and the HLA-DR (Leptin and others too) are the most important

piece of the puzzle. CNS is generally considered a harmless bacteria

in the nasal passage when a person has a normal MSH and no genetic

suceptibility. but when the MSH drops, the mucuos membrane that

prevents passgae of the CNS toxins from entering your bloodstream is

weakened. thus, the toxins begin to readily enter your system

resulting in the downward spiral.

I think one of the main points of DR Shoemaker is that the CNS is not

causing and infection per say. they are just colonizers. the real

damge is being done by the neurotoxins produced by the CNS.

if you sister has a normal MSH, then she more than likely will not be

affected by the CNS. this is why most people with CNS are not sick

with this condition.

Take this all with a grain of salt because i don't really know what

i'm talking about. this is all secondhand info. If there is any way

you can see Dr Shoemaker, it will put many of your questions to rest.

He is very thorough and very easy to talk to in person.

thanks

bill

PS - the CNS that are Abx suceptible are treated differently that

ones that are methicillin resistant.

> > Hi Folks,

> >

> > I thought I would pass this along. My Dr. and Dr. Shoemaker told

> me to get

> > my family members tested who live with me in my house. So we

> tested my

> > sister (who is in perfect health and has more energy then she

knows

> what to

> > do with) and the test came back that she is severely infected

with

> Staph

> > Epidermidis. Well this just didn't make that much sense because

> she is

> > perfectly healthy. Even is she doesn't have the HLA-DR genotype

> for staph or

> > mold and even if she doesn't have low MSH, her 3+ staph result

> should most

> > likely be making her sick because a 3+ means large infection

> Esoterix told

> > us. So what is the deal here, is the Esoterix staph test for my

> sister

> > really accurate?

> >

> > In addition, I got back my nasal swab tests..I did two of them.

> One came

> > back 1+ for staph epidermidis and it was resistant to every

single

> antibiotic

> > except one. Then my other staph test came back as 3+ and it was

> NOT

> > resistant to any antibiotics. So this is a huge

contridiction..the

> worse

> > infection wasn't resistant to any antibiotics and the small

> infection was

> > resistant to almost all antibiotics.

> >

> > We are starting to wonder based on my test results from Esoterix

> and my

> > sisters test results from Esoterix if Esoterix nasal tests are

any

> good. My

> > dr. is kind of scratching his head at this point and now doesn't

> want to use

> > Esoterix anymore. Basically why are we using this test from

> Esoterix if a

> > perfectly healthy person can test positive for it?? I am

assuming

> that my

> > sister will not have low MSH and will not have the genotype for

> staph and

> > mold because if she really has this staph it is not making her

> sick. The

> > question is... will the staph (if she really has it) eventually

> make her sick

> > and start to lower her MSH?? I am now confused as to if we

should

> believe

> > these results from Esoterix.

> >

> > Any comments or suggestions?

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/21/03 12:53:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, pj7@...

writes:

> 50% of all

> antibiotics are given to animals) and the fact that all antibiotics are

> flushed into the water systems of the earth where they do not degrade unless

> exposed to sunlight. Bacterial resistance is far, far beyond any one

> person's use of antibiotics. Hope this helps.

> a

Thank you a, this is very true. K

[Guest guest]

My sister has been on Antibiotics twice in her entire life.

> Once in 4th grade and once in 9th grade. And she came up Methicillin

> resistant. We also find this odd but again we are testing her again to

get

> to the bottom of all of this.

, bacteria resistance is not primarily developed in ONE person's body.

It comes from the antibiotics being pervasive throughout the ecological

system of the earth. This includes its use in animals (fully 50% of all

antibiotics are given to animals) and the fact that all antibiotics are

flushed into the water systems of the earth where they do not degrade unless

exposed to sunlight. Bacterial resistance is far, far beyond any one

person's use of antibiotics. Hope this helps.

a

[Guest guest]

Great point, a, I meant to say that as well, but brain fog....

Also wanted to say that some of these organisms behave well enough in

aerobic environments but when they work their way into anerobic

environments, or into multi organism colonies, that's when they turn

nasty. We don't really understand the mechanism, or how cagey these

bacteria are, but I know for a fact that the organisms in me have

been quietly wreacking havoc for decades. Now I have dead bone, and

diseased sinuses to prove it.

I hope that by lessening the load on my immune system, that it'll

have a chance to rejuvenate itself and fight these things off in the

future. But I do wonder occasionally about us as a species and if we

might not so much blow ourselves to smithereens with a nuclear bomb,

as succumb to superbugs we've foolishly helped create. Maybe it's

just Mother Nature's version of population control?

penny

>

> My sister has been on Antibiotics twice in her entire life.

> > Once in 4th grade and once in 9th grade. And she came up

Methicillin

> > resistant. We also find this odd but again we are testing her

again to

> get

> > to the bottom of all of this.

>

>

> , bacteria resistance is not primarily developed in ONE

person's body.

> It comes from the antibiotics being pervasive throughout the

ecological

> system of the earth. This includes its use in animals (fully 50% of

all

> antibiotics are given to animals) and the fact that all antibiotics

are

> flushed into the water systems of the earth where they do not

degrade unless

> exposed to sunlight. Bacterial resistance is far, far beyond any one

> person's use of antibiotics. Hope this helps.

> a

[Guest guest]

Hi

With reference to the below could anyone explain to me what MSH and HLA-DR are

and where these can be tested

Re: Problem with Esoterix-

KAren

the MSH and the HLA-DR (Leptin and others too) are the most important

piece of the puzzle. CNS is generally considered a harmless bacteria

in the nasal passage when a person has a normal MSH and no genetic

suceptibility. but when the MSH drops, the mucuos membrane that

prevents passgae of the CNS toxins from entering your bloodstream is

weakened. thus, the toxins begin to readily enter your system

resulting in the downward spiral.

I think one of the main points of DR Shoemaker is that the CNS is not

causing and infection per say. they are just colonizers. the real

damge is being done by the neurotoxins produced by the CNS.

if you sister has a normal MSH, then she more than likely will not be

affected by the CNS. this is why most people with CNS are not sick

with this condition.

Take this all with a grain of salt because i don't really know what

i'm talking about. this is all secondhand info. If there is any way

you can see Dr Shoemaker, it will put many of your questions to rest.

He is very thorough and very easy to talk to in person.

thanks

bill

PS - the CNS that are Abx suceptible are treated differently that

ones that are methicillin resistant.

> > Hi Folks,

> >

> > I thought I would pass this along. My Dr. and Dr. Shoemaker told

> me to get

> > my family members tested who live with me in my house. So we

> tested my

> > sister (who is in perfect health and has more energy then she

knows

> what to

> > do with) and the test came back that she is severely infected

with

> Staph

> > Epidermidis. Well this just didn't make that much sense because

> she is

> > perfectly healthy. Even is she doesn't have the HLA-DR genotype

> for staph or

> > mold and even if she doesn't have low MSH, her 3+ staph result

> should most

> > likely be making her sick because a 3+ means large infection

> Esoterix told

> > us. So what is the deal here, is the Esoterix staph test for my

> sister

> > really accurate?

> >

> > In addition, I got back my nasal swab tests..I did two of them.

> One came

> > back 1+ for staph epidermidis and it was resistant to every

single

> antibiotic

> > except one. Then my other staph test came back as 3+ and it was

> NOT

> > resistant to any antibiotics. So this is a huge

contridiction..the

> worse

> > infection wasn't resistant to any antibiotics and the small

> infection was

> > resistant to almost all antibiotics.

> >

> > We are starting to wonder based on my test results from Esoterix

> and my

> > sisters test results from Esoterix if Esoterix nasal tests are

any

> good. My

> > dr. is kind of scratching his head at this point and now doesn't

> want to use

> > Esoterix anymore. Basically why are we using this test from

> Esoterix if a

> > perfectly healthy person can test positive for it?? I am

assuming

> that my

> > sister will not have low MSH and will not have the genotype for

> staph and

> > mold because if she really has this staph it is not making her

> sick. The

> > question is... will the staph (if she really has it) eventually

> make her sick

> > and start to lower her MSH?? I am now confused as to if we

should

> believe

> > these results from Esoterix.

> >

> > Any comments or suggestions?

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

KAren

i'm sorry you had a bad experience with Dr Shoemaker. I am always

worried about phone consults. i just feel like it is too difficult to

get a good rapport over the phone. it's so impersonal.

anyway, i am the last person who would dismiss somebody's concerns

over a DR who is arogant and insensitive. i have seen too many DR's

who fit that profile. it's very unnerving.

as for the CNS questions, there are a couple of thoughts that come to

mind. maybe you sister just has a sinus infection that isn't

bothering her all that much. as per the neurotoxin theory, she would

only develope CFS is she had a low MSH.

please report back the results of her second culture.

Also, the methicillin resistance doesn't mean that she had to have

taken this abx. it just means that at some point (prior to inhabiting

her nose), it developed resistance to it.

thanks

bill

>

> Hi Bill, thank you for writing. I will answer some questions and

ask some

> below. I am not being rude with my questions I am just asking them

to get us

> all thinking about this..about what the real truth is about CNS.

We all need

> to work together in this.

>

> You mentioned in your post that the staph really isn't the problem

for my

> sister it's only a problem if her MSH is low and if she has the

correct

> genotype on the HLA-DR test. But is what I am trying to stress is

that this

> is wrong. Esoterix said that a 3+ infection of Staph is a " TRUE "

infection.

> It would damage anyone in the general public. It is a true staph

infection.

> They said a 1+ or a 2+ isn't that bad but a 3+ or 4+ would get

anyone sick.

> Her test (and mine) came back as 3+. I am sick and she is

perfectly healthy.

> So something might be wrong with the test she did at Esoterix, she

will be

> doing another culture to put an end to this guessing once and for

all.

>

> You also mentioned this staph is about not the staph infection

itself but

> more about the staph releasing a bad toxin that makes us sick.

Then the real

> question is if she really does have a 3+ infection then why are my

staph

> releasing bad toxins but hers are not??

>

> In addition, you said to talk to Dr. Shoemaker and he can answer

all these

> questions. I have been going back and forth about if mentioning

this is the

> right thing to do but here I go. Lynn has made Dr. Shoemaker out

to be a GOD

> (practically). Myself and my dr. have had three consultations with

Dr.

> Shoemaker. All I will now say about this is that we will never

look to him

> for advise again. I have heard from four different people that he

is cocky,

> arrogant, and just about everything else in the book. I didn't

believe them

> because Lynn was talking so highly of him. I have now found out

for myself

> the real truth. Even my dr. is disgusted with him. So please

don't jump

> down my throat about this, I know dr. shoemaker is helping some

people..this

> is just my opinion. I would never in a million years advise

someone to go to

> him for an appointment...EVER!! Again, this is just my opinion.

>

> Lastly, you mentioned about the staph being methicillin resistant.

This is

> the real kicker. My sister has been on Antibiotics twice in her

entire life.

> Once in 4th grade and once in 9th grade. And she came up

Methicillin

> resistant. We also find this odd but again we are testing her

again to get

> to the bottom of all of this.

>

> Thanks again Bill for writing. We all need to keep talking about

this. We

> all need to keep learning.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Someone else may be able to explain this better, but I will give you

some comments for what they are worth.

MSH stands for " melanocyte stimulating hormone. " There are actually

more than one MSH, called MSH alpha, MSH beta, and MSH gamma. These

hormones are made in the pituitary gland. Their name is sort of

deceiving. They got that name because that was the first thing they

were found to do--stimulate melanocytes, which are the cells in the

skin that make melanin. However, since then they have been found to

be important for other things. For example, the MSHs are made from

the same larger protein molecule (POMC) as is ACTH

(adrenocorticotrophic hormone), which is the hormone that the

pituitary uses to communicate with the adrenal cortex to make

cortisol and DHEA. So it is thought that the MSHs may have effects

on the adrenals. MSH alpha is also known to be involved in

controlling appetite. Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker discusses this in his

book " Lose the Weight You Hate. "

Other things that MSH is apparently involved in regulating include

melatonin, endorphins, peripheral proinflammatory cytokine release

by macrophages, cytokine effects on keratinocyte function in nasal

mucosa, pulsatile release of gonadotropins, release of antidiuretic

hormone, and release of ACTH.

The immediate connection between MSH and CFIDS is that Dr.

Shoemaker reports that he has found that some biotoxins can cause a

lowering of the MSH, and this affects a number of the hormones in

the body that are regulated by the hypothalamus. This happens

particularly in people who have certain HLA genotypes (see below).

It also causes more mucus to be formed in the nasal passages, and

this causes a proliferation of coagulase-negative staphylococcus

infections. Dr. Shoemaker therefore recommends that people have

their MSH level measured.

HLA stands for " human leukocyte antigen. " This is also known as the

human major histocompatibility complex (MHC). The molecules in this

complex are located on the external surfaces of certain white blood

cells, and are involved with the identification of infected cells by

the immune system. There are three classes of genes coding these

antigens: Classes I, II, and III. Class II HLAs are found on the

surfaces of B lymphocytes, dendritic cells and macrophages. The

idea is that a macrophage, for example, will chew up some of the

proteins in, for example, a virus that is infecting a cell. The

macrophage will display pieces of these proteins sort of like little

flags on its external surface, by means of the HLA molecules. A

helper-T cell that is trained to look for this particular piece of

protein will then lock-on to this, and become activated, putting out

cytokines to signal B lymphocytes and other macrophages. This

mobilizes the immune system to kill other cells infected with this

same virus.

Normal cells in the body carry Class I HLA on their surfaces, and

this signals natural killer cells that they are " friendly, " so the

NK cells won't attack them.

So the general purpose of the HLA system is to act as sort of

an " IFF " system, in military terms, i.e. " identification, foe or

friendly. "

There is a particular category of Class II HLA called HLA-DR.

People are born with different versions of the various HLAs, called

alleles, and certain alleles have been found to be associated with

people who tend to get certain diseases.

Dr. Shoemaker has found that there are correlations between the

alleles of HLA-DR and various neurotoxin-mediated diseases. Because

of this he recommends that people get tested to see which alleles of

HLA-DR they have.

I'll let someone else comment on which labs are best for measuring

the MSH and the HLA-DR alleles.

Rich

> Hi

>

> With reference to the below could anyone explain to me what MSH

and HLA-DR are and where these can be tested

>

>

>

]