Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 In a message dated 4/20/99 6:47:36 PM GMT Daylight Time, lgill@... writes: > Curious as to why you say " Forget Lovaas - way out of date " ? Have you read > the medical statistics on this type of therapy? Talked to parents who are > practicing the Lovaas Method? I think that you would quickly change your > opinion. If anything Lovaas is very up to date! ......Lovaas or ABA?.....ABA is very useful and has helped my son....Lovaas, I agree...and so does Prof.Lovaas.... is indeed out-of-date!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 In a message dated 4/20/99 9:00:27 PM GMT Daylight Time, jlois@... writes: > Hello! Lovaas IS ABA! Lois > .....not correct; 'lovaas' refers to a study Prof.Lovaas carried out in 1987. 8 of 19 children (mean IQ 60 and age 2 yrs) 'recovered' ENOUGH to enter mainstream education...(the original 'recovery' percentage was 9 children, one regressed in later years). Lovaas used aversives, ie, yelling and slapping in this study. As you are probably aware there is substantial argument as to the selection of the children involved in the study. ABA uses positive reinforcerment and all positive aspects of behavioral teaching, and is implemented by qualified psychologists, whereas 'Lovaas' is generally ....not. To see more about ABA you could visit www.iaba.com, if you'd like more information please mail me. Liz Lucy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 Curious as to why you say " Forget Lovaas - way out of date " ? Have you read the medical statistics on this type of therapy? Talked to parents who are practicing the Lovaas Method? I think that you would quickly change your opinion. If anything Lovaas is very up to date! Yes, the Lovaas Method is a very controversial topic. It appears as though many people tend to cling to the idea that this therapy uses aversives but I must advise that this type of thinking is way out of date. The Lovaas Therapy is extremely beneficial to MANY children with Autism. Please note that this is not to discredit your post as I believe that you mentioned many good points (ie. Greenspan's Floor Time). It just scares me to think that someone will not try the Lovaas method based on old beliefs. I believe that if one researches this method extensively, one could change their opinion and might give the Lovaas method a try!!!!! I really believe that there is not one answer for all of our children, just as I am sure there is not just one cause. Congratulations on the success of your son. I hope that he continues to do well. It is always nice to hear positive news!!!~ > Re: New to the List and Looking For Help > > I am a parent of a sonwho has been deemed to have " recovered " from > " moderate > to severe autism " , diagnosed 3 1/2 yrs. ago. He is now almost 6. It's > certainly easier when they are younger from what I am told however they > are > having great success now with kids who are older. We tried it ALL except > Options in Mass. which I think you'll find just isn't it. > I'd say Dr. Goldberg was responsible for 60-70%. There was unquestionably > a > medical issue there. If you contact him say Witherington referred you. > Then > from a therapy standpoint, the Koegel's in UC at santa Barbara are the > best. > Tell them the same about who referred you. From a theoretical standpoint, > read Dr. Greenspan material-floor time is a little difficult to grasp but > he > has the right idea. Forget Lovaas!-way out of date. I could go on forever > but > those other people are better than me. > Summary-Goldberg for medical (not therapy), and Koegel's for therapy-they > have a web site. let me know if you can't get hold of them. Good Luck > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > _____ > __________________________________________________________________________ > _____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 Liz, We have never chosen a Lovaas or ABA option partially at the advice of therapists and also based on our own observations. Our son is fairly active, has good eye contact and is more related than most children with this diagnosis. The two detractions I have heard about the Lovaas approach are 1. Early gains that may allow these children to be mainstreamed in early education (1st and 2nd grade) but then the rote-basis of the training hampers them later on when abstract thinking becomes more important in their education and development The second criticism is related to the first in that Lovaas tends to reinforce the rote processing that is native to these children in the first place and so may increase and undesirable trait rather than moderate it. I have talked to a few parents who have characterized their experience as a year or two of good progress that then stalls. Your point of view on this would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 In a message dated 4/20/99 10:37:03 PM GMT Daylight Time, jlois@... writes: > Lovaas says dont't call it Lovaas call it ABA > because that is what it is. Lois ...I would be VERY interested to see a transcript and the exact quotation of this; It could be VERY helpful indeed if you could please forward it to me. Thanks. Liz Lucy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 Personally, your both wrong! Lovass is a form of ABA--Very similar, and in a lot of areas (certain states) they do basically mean the same thing. My son was involved with a Lovaas replication site--they practice a very strict form of ABA and THEY DO NOT USE ADVERSIVES!! Dr. Lovaas DOES NOT USE ADVERSIVES AND HASN'T FOR 20 YEARS!! Lovaas was wonderful for my son, and know that he is doing so much better, we have loosened up and now do ABA. Neither Lovaas or ABA is out-dated, but your information seems to be! Pat MAT: Medicine for Autism Today Lizanj@... wrote: > > From: Lizanj@... > > In a message dated 4/20/99 9:00:27 PM GMT Daylight Time, jlois@... > writes: > > > Hello! Lovaas IS ABA! Lois > > > > ....not correct; 'lovaas' refers to a study Prof.Lovaas carried out in 1987. > 8 of 19 children (mean IQ 60 and age 2 yrs) 'recovered' ENOUGH to enter > mainstream education...(the original 'recovery' percentage was 9 children, > one regressed in later years). Lovaas used aversives, ie, yelling and > slapping in this study. As you are probably aware there is substantial > argument as to the selection of the children involved in the study. ABA uses > positive reinforcerment and all positive aspects of behavioral teaching, and > is implemented by qualified psychologists, whereas 'Lovaas' is generally > ...not. To see more about ABA you could visit www.iaba.com, if you'd like > more information please mail me. Liz Lucy. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > You can now easily share photos and documents with your fellow list members > http://www.ONElist.com > Check out our homepage for details on how to use our new shared files feature! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 In a message dated 4/20/99 11:15:29 PM GMT Daylight Time, jlois@... writes: > Hello, My sons teacher went to a conference on Dr lovaas 2 years ago and > while > she was there He was speaking and said " don't call it lovaas call it ABA > because that is what it is " I also have heard him say it on tape from an > autism meeting i had. I wish I could be more helpful. My son JJ gets ABA at > his > school and it is set up the same way as a lady in my town that has the > Lovaas > way. And no they DON " T do aversies. Hope this has helped. Lois (momtoJJbug) > ....Lois, I agree that Prof.Lovaas is an advocate of ABA, but there is confusion here, and of great significance; for example..if local governments were to supply funding for a 'lovaas' program BASED on his '87 study....there could be disastrous consequences for children/families/funding..which is why I would be grateful if you would name that conference so i may pursue the minutes taken. I am sure you appreciate the importance of knowing precisely which program/s (and whom endorses them) that are to be implemented for our children/adult relatives. Liz Lucy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 Hello! Lovaas IS ABA! Lois Lizanj@... wrote: > From: Lizanj@... > > In a message dated 4/20/99 6:47:36 PM GMT Daylight Time, lgill@... > writes: > > > Curious as to why you say " Forget Lovaas - way out of date " ? Have you read > > the medical statistics on this type of therapy? Talked to parents who are > > practicing the Lovaas Method? I think that you would quickly change your > > opinion. If anything Lovaas is very up to date! > .....Lovaas or ABA?.....ABA is very useful and has helped my son....Lovaas, I > agree...and so does Prof.Lovaas.... is indeed out-of-date!!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > HOW YA FEELIN'? Find out with your free Personal Health Report. > It's easy, it's fun, it's confidential and it's free. > /ad/ivillage1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 -I would totally agree with you on Lovaas. The one thing you want to " find " in these kids is emotion- " affect " -if you are lucky enough to get to that point in Lovaas, you are taught to stifle that because it is not conducive to paying attention and listening. Lovaas focuses on teaching " things " ie. how much does the child know? There are many better ways. I speak from experience. I don't want to debate it with everyone, and won't. But those of you thinking you are getting somewhere with Lovaas, please explore Greenspan's teachings; or the Koegel's approach based on the child's motivation. Read about these theories and think for yourself-if you were the child,how would you want to be treated, and which approach would you respond to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 Hello, Yes I know all about the study lovaas did. I know that was a long time ago and they don't do aversies now. Lovaas says dont't call it Lovaas call it ABA because that is what it is. Lois Lizanj@... wrote: > From: Lizanj@... > > In a message dated 4/20/99 9:00:27 PM GMT Daylight Time, jlois@... > writes: > > > Hello! Lovaas IS ABA! Lois > > > > ....not correct; 'lovaas' refers to a study Prof.Lovaas carried out in 1987. > 8 of 19 children (mean IQ 60 and age 2 yrs) 'recovered' ENOUGH to enter > mainstream education...(the original 'recovery' percentage was 9 children, > one regressed in later years). Lovaas used aversives, ie, yelling and > slapping in this study. As you are probably aware there is substantial > argument as to the selection of the children involved in the study. ABA uses > positive reinforcerment and all positive aspects of behavioral teaching, and > is implemented by qualified psychologists, whereas 'Lovaas' is generally > ...not. To see more about ABA you could visit www.iaba.com, if you'd like > more information please mail me. Liz Lucy. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > You can now easily share photos and documents with your fellow list members > http://www.ONElist.com > Check out our homepage for details on how to use our new shared files feature! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 1999 Report Share Posted April 20, 1999 Hello, My sons teacher went to a conference on Dr lovaas 2 years ago and while she was there He was speaking and said " don't call it lovaas call it ABA because that is what it is " I also have heard him say it on tape from an autism meeting i had. I wish I could be more helpful. My son JJ gets ABA at his school and it is set up the same way as a lady in my town that has the Lovaas way. And no they DON " T do aversies. Hope this has helped. Lois (momtoJJbug) Lizanj@... wrote: > From: Lizanj@... > > In a message dated 4/20/99 10:37:03 PM GMT Daylight Time, jlois@... > writes: > > > Lovaas says dont't call it Lovaas call it ABA > > because that is what it is. Lois > ..I would be VERY interested to see a transcript and the exact quotation of > this; It could be VERY helpful indeed if you could please forward it to me. > Thanks. Liz Lucy. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Looking to expand your world? > http://www.ONElist.com > ONElist has over 115,000 e-mail communities from which to chose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 1999 Report Share Posted April 21, 1999 I have certainly seen more than one child benefit from Lovaas. It works. I firmly believe in it. I'm sure many of us wonder if we'd been able to arrange for Lovaas for children just how much further they'd be now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 1999 Report Share Posted April 21, 1999 In a message dated 99-04-20 23:52:47 EDT, you write: << I have certainly seen more than one child benefit from Lovaas. It works. I firmly believe in it. I'm sure many of us wonder if we'd been able to arrange for Lovaas for children just how much further they'd be now. >> I must have missed something - what is Lovaas? Where can I get it? TIA martha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 1999 Report Share Posted April 21, 1999 Liz Lucy Hi! I will have to ask my sons teacher tomorow if she remenbers the name of the conf. she went too. The ARC in my town has a lady that works there that uses to work at the eden instute in New jersey. They do ABA there. She is the one that does my sons programs. Discret trails. If I find out what the name of the conf was I will let you know. Maybe somebody else on the list has heard him say this and knows extacty when ans where they heard it. Lois Lizanj@... wrote: > From: Lizanj@... > > In a message dated 4/20/99 11:15:29 PM GMT Daylight Time, jlois@... > writes: > > > Hello, My sons teacher went to a conference on Dr lovaas 2 years ago and > > while > > she was there He was speaking and said " don't call it lovaas call it ABA > > because that is what it is " I also have heard him say it on tape from an > > autism meeting i had. I wish I could be more helpful. My son JJ gets ABA > at > > his > > school and it is set up the same way as a lady in my town that has the > > Lovaas > > way. And no they DON " T do aversies. Hope this has helped. Lois (momtoJJbug) > > > ...Lois, I agree that Prof.Lovaas is an advocate of ABA, but there is > confusion here, and of great significance; for example..if local governments > were to supply funding for a 'lovaas' program BASED on his '87 study....there > could be disastrous consequences for children/families/funding..which is why > I would be grateful if you would name that conference so i may pursue the > minutes taken. I am sure you appreciate the importance of knowing precisely > which program/s (and whom endorses them) that are to be implemented for our > children/adult relatives. Liz Lucy. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start a new hobby. Meet a new friend. > http://www.ONElist.com > ONElist: The leading provider of free e-mail list services! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 1999 Report Share Posted April 21, 1999 Dear Martha, He is not for sale !!!! ;o) Dr. Ivor Lovaas has developed a teaching method of skill drills, called Applied Behavior Analysis. (ABA). He works in UCLA at the Lovass Institute of Learning (I may be a little bit inaccurate on the name and locale, but definitely S. CA) His book, The ME BOOK (for short) is a bit outdated, however the revision is due out soon. You can subscribe to the ME List and learn more about it. The faithful fans are quite militant about their rights to get this education for their children. It is a very lively group. Write to rallen@... , she is the list owner. Maurice writes about the method very passionately and eloquently in her book, Let Me Hear Your Voice. A must read for every parent. Her follow up book is Behavioral Intervention for Young Children with Autism, a manual for parents and teachers. It is packed full of drills, and data charts. If you chose this method, be prepaired for data data data. I cheat. I do the drill and move on. I personlly believe in a more balanced curriculum, and add some Stanley Greenspan's floorplay, read " the Child with Special Needs " . and Lynn Kogel also detail an excellent program, but I found the book a bit frustrating to read (too many footnotes and references mid sentence) I hope they don't speak that way in conferences.!!! ~ Re: Lovaas outdated? >From: Rusadie@... > >In a message dated 99-04-20 23:52:47 EDT, you write: > ><< I have certainly seen more than one child benefit from Lovaas. It works. >I > firmly believe in it. I'm sure many of us wonder if we'd been able to > arrange for Lovaas for children just how much further they'd be now. > >> >I must have missed something - what is Lovaas? Where can I get it? TIA >martha > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Have you visited the new ONElist home page lately? >http://www.ONElist.com >ONElist: The Leading e-mail list and community service on the Internet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 1999 Report Share Posted April 21, 1999 I have never heard the Koegel's at a conference. I also can say their books are a little diificult but only because they go to such great lengths to document their research and opinions---something that most of us want. I have quite a bit of personal experience with the Koegels, as well as Greenspan, the Lovaas Institiute (not some knock-off of it), and many others. I can say WITHOUT A DOUBT the Koegels are the most down to earth people I have seen in 4 years in this " business " . They are the most practical of all, and their methods of teaching are THE most naturalistic of ANY. They are the most uplifting people-their staff is the same way. They have their own children and you can tell they know what parenting is all about, in addition to what comprises autism. They don't have a " ME Book " like Lovaas to follow. All of their instruction is tailored to the child. They are hard to get to see, but well worth it if you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 1999 Report Share Posted April 21, 1999 I appreciate the references and documentation too, but I prefer to read them in footnotes at the bottom of the page. It is hard to read a paragraph that is interuppted with the refs in mid sentence. I have some difficulty with staying focused on the content. This may work fine for most people, I just feel I missed a lot, and willl have to check it out again. Maybe photocopy it, and then cut & paste the refs? ;o) There are some other authors I have trouble reading (including myself!), as some of us forget how to keep sentences short enough to follow, myself being the worst offender. ~ Re: Lovaas outdated? >From: CWither43@... > >I have never heard the Koegel's at a conference. I also can say their books >are a little diificult but only because they go to such great lengths to >document their research and opinions---something that most of us want. I have >quite a bit of personal experience with the Koegels, as well as Greenspan, >the Lovaas Institiute (not some knock-off of it), and many others. I can say >WITHOUT A DOUBT the Koegels are the most down to earth people I have seen in >4 years in this " business " . They are the most practical of all, and their >methods of teaching are THE most naturalistic of ANY. They are the most >uplifting people-their staff is the same way. They have their own children >and you can tell they know what parenting is all about, in addition to what >comprises autism. They don't have a " ME Book " like Lovaas to follow. All of >their instruction is tailored to the child. They are hard to get to see, but >well worth it if you can. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Did you know that we add over 1,000 new e-mail communities every day? >http://www.ONElist.com >Explore a new hobby, discover a new friend, laugh at a new joke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 1999 Report Share Posted April 21, 1999 Is there a good Web site for information about the Koegel approach? --Kathleen-- >From: CWither43@... > >-I would totally agree with you on Lovaas. The one thing you want to > " find " in these kids is emotion- " affect " -if you are lucky enough to get to >that point in Lovaas, you are taught to stifle that because it is not >conducive to paying attention and listening. Lovaas focuses on teaching > " things " ie. how much does the child know? There are many better ways. I >speak from experience. I don't want to debate it with everyone, and won't. >But those of you thinking you are getting somewhere with Lovaas, please >explore Greenspan's teachings; or the Koegel's approach based on the child's >motivation. Read about these theories and think for yourself-if you were the >child,how would you want to be treated, and which approach would you respond >to? > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Did you know that knowledge is power? >http://www.ONElist.com >Join a new ONElist e-mail community and strengthen your mind! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kathleen J. McClatchey (Whiteman) kjm@... Executive Communications office phone: (734) 763-8190 Office of the Chief Information Officer fax: (734) 764-3988 5085 Fleming Administration Building cell phone: (734) 358-5122 University of Michigan home phone: (734) 944-1828 Ann Arbor, MI 48109 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 1999 Report Share Posted April 21, 1999 The web site for the Koegel's is " www.education.ucsb.edu/~doniel/autism.html Please check it out. Feel free to e-mail Lynn Koegel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 1999 Report Share Posted April 21, 1999 This is more clearly described by the web sites of Community Services for Autistic Adults and Children (CSAAC) or www.autism-society.org, the web site for the Autism Society of America. It is intensive behavior modification, 40 hours per week, done in the home setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 1999 Report Share Posted April 22, 1999 In a message dated 4/22/99 3:23:20 AM GMT Daylight Time, Virri345@... writes: > This is more clearly described by the web sites of Community Services for > Autistic Adults and Children (CSAAC) or www.autism-society.org, the web site > > for the Autism Society of America. It is intensive behavior modification, > 40 > hours per week, done in the home setting. > .....We have been implementing a 'lovaas' ABA program for over two years. After my son initally (first year) being 'drilled' at a table for 7-8 hours every day, given the same 'instructions' hundreds of times a day, and then realising he could learn the same thing, ie imitations AND generalise his skills across all different settings and locations(once I had studied 'lovaas/ABA intricately) we changed to a different consultant who utilises various methods to suit the child/individual . I hear that children still being 'drilled' and trying to 'replicate' the lovaas study in '87...(which is not possible as it would be illegal to use aversives now) do not continue to do well after 3/4/5th grade. If ABA is used...there is not a 'time-limit', it is kinder and can only help. As you've probably read...lovaas says 'dont call it 'lovaas'...it is ABA.' I wish, as I suppose HE does at times, especially when being faced with legal action, that people would refer to this as ABA. (the 40 hours of teaching can mean so many things....Temple Grandin recommends 40 hours of GOOD teaching...ABA is reinforcing to the child, therefore the point is that the child WANTS and ENJOYS to learn....I had to change from keeping my son in one room all day as I could not bear his pleading cries for mercy any more...the 'lovaas ' people tell you that this is called an 'extinction burst'....let them scream and cry until you gain 'compliance'.....this is simply not necessary....really. I hope you understand. Liz Lucy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 1999 Report Share Posted April 22, 1999 Thanks much! --Kathleen-- >From: CWither43@... > >The web site for the Koegel's is " www.education.ucsb.edu/~doniel/autism.html >Please check it out. Feel free to e-mail Lynn Koegel. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Looking for a new hobby? Want to make a new friend? >http://www.ONElist.com >Come join one of the 130,000 e-mail communities at ONElist! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kathleen J. McClatchey (Whiteman) kjm@... Executive Communications office phone: (734) 763-8190 Office of the Chief Information Officer fax: (734) 764-3988 5085 Fleming Administration Building cell phone: (734) 358-5122 University of Michigan home phone: (734) 944-1828 Ann Arbor, MI 48109 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.