Guest guest Posted June 21, 2001 Report Share Posted June 21, 2001 trish, I think it's always best to take aminos with food, and with a wide spectrum of other aminos, just as we do in nature. They can be taken in isolation for various therapeutic purposes but the theoretical risks increase in that case. Tyrosine and phenylalanine for example can raise blood pressure in some people, and as we've alluded to here recently cysteine is hazardous to nerve cells via its conversion to cysteic acid and cysteine sulfinic acid (both excitotoxins). Glutamic acid (glutamate) and aspartate are also excitotoxins, and there are certainly other risks inherent in other aminos as well. But those risks are relatively small and significant only when taken in high concentrations, especially on an empty stomach. I'm not aware of any specific amino combinations that are more hazardous than the individual aminos taken separately. -gts > amino's > > > I'm trying to determine which amino's interfere pathways of other > amino's. ... various recommended protocols suggest that we take > single & combo aminos on an empty stomach... as I understand it, > some of he reasons relate to pathway interference, & some > reasons relate to interference from hormonal/body activities that > are the result of eating. Are there any definie no-no's in amino > combo's? Does know where I could find that information? > Thank you for any thoughts. > Trishj > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2001 Report Share Posted June 21, 2001 On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:56:24 -0400 " trish " <zedora@...> wrote: > I'm trying to determine which amino's interfere pathways > of other amino's. ... various recommended protocols > suggest that we take single & combo aminos on an empty > stomach... as I understand it, some of he reasons relate > to pathway interference, & some reasons relate to > interference from hormonal/body activities that are the > result of eating. Are there any definie no-no's in amino > combo's? Does know where I could find that > information? Thank you for any thoughts. > Trishj > Amino acids may be categorized as large or small and polar or non-polar. Each of the resultant sub-categories has a separate transporter through the blood-brain barrier. Those transporters are all downregulated by insulin while a separate transporter specific to tryptophan is insulin dependent. If one seeks the highest peak level of an ingested isolated amino acid in the brain, one should not consume it with any other amino acid that falls in the same sub-category. I'll try to find my old reference but do recollect arginine, ornithine and lysine to be in the same subcategory. That argues against the GH-releasing mixes that include lysine. On the average 40-42% of ingested amino acids are deaminated and converted to glucose in the liver. A large bolus of any amino-acid mix will yield an insulin spike driven by the glucose availability. That spike will reduce the peak concentration of any ingested amino acid other than tryptophan. For that reason, one might choose not to combine aminos regardless of subclass if the resulting dose is more than a few grams. The latter effect is probably protective in that glutamine and glutamate are most prone to be deaminated. The supposed excitotoxic effects of consuming either in quantity may well be opposed by reduced transport and by parallel increases in availability of glucose and tryptophan. This is clearly an area for in-vivo research. For muscles, insulin enhances the absorption and utilization of all amino acids. Combining carbs with protein after a workout is a good idea. Only combine aminos with other food if you are compensating for the shortage of a limiting amino acid in that other food. Tissues, especially muscle can't hold much free-aminos but can create protein at an amazing rate. Aminos can be used as drugs or as protein building blocks. The latter preempts the former. An expensive amino mixed with all the others required to build muscle proteins (for instance) will be rapidly dissipated. It will not do so if those other required aminos aren't present. Coingested food also competes for transport from the gut and will delay absorption of the expensive amino. One obvious area of research would be to determine whether a relatively cheap product that the liver readily degrades (such as glutamine) could saturate the liver enzymes and sacrificially protect a more expensive product such as L-carnosine from degradation. Bob Cruder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2001 Report Share Posted June 21, 2001 On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:56:24 -0400 " trish " <zedora@...> wrote: > I'm trying to determine which amino's interfere pathways > of other amino's. ... various recommended protocols > suggest that we take single & combo aminos on an empty > stomach... as I understand it, some of he reasons relate > to pathway interference, & some reasons relate to > interference from hormonal/body activities that are the > result of eating. Are there any definie no-no's in amino > combo's? Does know where I could find that > information? Thank you for any thoughts. > Trishj > Amino acids may be categorized as large or small and polar or non-polar. Each of the resultant sub-categories has a separate transporter through the blood-brain barrier. Those transporters are all downregulated by insulin while a separate transporter specific to tryptophan is insulin dependent. If one seeks the highest peak level of an ingested isolated amino acid in the brain, one should not consume it with any other amino acid that falls in the same sub-category. I'll try to find my old reference but do recollect arginine, ornithine and lysine to be in the same subcategory. That argues against the GH-releasing mixes that include lysine. On the average 40-42% of ingested amino acids are deaminated and converted to glucose in the liver. A large bolus of any amino-acid mix will yield an insulin spike driven by the glucose availability. That spike will reduce the peak concentration of any ingested amino acid other than tryptophan. For that reason, one might choose not to combine aminos regardless of subclass if the resulting dose is more than a few grams. The latter effect is probably protective in that glutamine and glutamate are most prone to be deaminated. The supposed excitotoxic effects of consuming either in quantity may well be opposed by reduced transport and by parallel increases in availability of glucose and tryptophan. This is clearly an area for in-vivo research. For muscles, insulin enhances the absorption and utilization of all amino acids. Combining carbs with protein after a workout is a good idea. Only combine aminos with other food if you are compensating for the shortage of a limiting amino acid in that other food. Tissues, especially muscle can't hold much free-aminos but can create protein at an amazing rate. Aminos can be used as drugs or as protein building blocks. The latter preempts the former. An expensive amino mixed with all the others required to build muscle proteins (for instance) will be rapidly dissipated. It will not do so if those other required aminos aren't present. Coingested food also competes for transport from the gut and will delay absorption of the expensive amino. One obvious area of research would be to determine whether a relatively cheap product that the liver readily degrades (such as glutamine) could saturate the liver enzymes and sacrificially protect a more expensive product such as L-carnosine from degradation. Bob Cruder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 Another question Bob, When taking L Carnosine (1 gr) in the mornings on an empty stomach, am I simplly wasting it? Also, it produces a tingling sensation in my arms and legs not unlike a very minor Niacin flush. This lasts for 1 1/2 hours. (definitely Carnosine dependent, as when I don't take it I don't have this very noticible reaction) Does this mean that it is being absorbed? Any illumination appreciated! And thanks for the very clear explanation of how Aminos work in tandem and with food. MM _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 That's the same response I recieved from l-carnosine ( 0.500g) - I was a little alarmed by this and I have not tried it since, does anyone know if this is a neutral side effect? Re: amino's > Another question Bob, > When taking L Carnosine (1 gr) in the mornings on an empty stomach, am I > simplly wasting it? Also, it produces a tingling sensation in my arms and > legs not unlike a very minor Niacin flush. This lasts for 1 1/2 hours. > (definitely Carnosine dependent, as when I don't take it I don't have this > very noticible reaction) Does this mean that it is being absorbed? > Any illumination appreciated! And thanks for the very clear explanation of > how Aminos work in tandem and with food. > MM > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 WOW ! I have been taking carnosine for about 6 months had have terrible flushing..my doctor said it was rosacea..which is a name they give facial flushing when they can not figure out why. I would like to know if you get flushing too?? I get it again about 4 hours after I take it when I eat lunch. Would love to hear back from you.. Re: amino's > > > > Another question Bob, > > When taking L Carnosine (1 gr) in the mornings on an empty stomach, am I > > simplly wasting it? Also, it produces a tingling sensation in my arms and > > legs not unlike a very minor Niacin flush. This lasts for 1 1/2 hours. > > (definitely Carnosine dependent, as when I don't take it I don't have this > > very noticible reaction) Does this mean that it is being absorbed? > > Any illumination appreciated! And thanks for the very clear explanation of > > how Aminos work in tandem and with food. > > MM > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 I need to clarify - I do not get the redness/flushing, however, I do get the tingling sensation in my forearms and thighs for about 60 minutes. Re: amino's > > > > > > > Another question Bob, > > > When taking L Carnosine (1 gr) in the mornings on an empty stomach, am I > > > simplly wasting it? Also, it produces a tingling sensation in my arms > and > > > legs not unlike a very minor Niacin flush. This lasts for 1 1/2 hours. > > > (definitely Carnosine dependent, as when I don't take it I don't have > this > > > very noticible reaction) Does this mean that it is being absorbed? > > > Any illumination appreciated! And thanks for the very clear explanation > of > > > how Aminos work in tandem and with food. > > > MM > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 Dear , No facial flushing, just the tingling. Who knows? Maybe it is harmless. But then again, carnosine hasn't been tested thoroughly in humans, just rodents and in vitro. Best wishes MM _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:01:40 -0000 " Mambo Mambo " <mambomambo@...> wrote: > When taking L Carnosine (1 gr) in the mornings on an > empty stomach, am I > simplly wasting it? LEF claims that small doses are degraded by carnosinase in liver but that large doses such as yours saturate the liver's metabolic capacity and largely survive. I originally questioned this but they did follow up with enough murine studies to justify the dosage. >Also, it produces a tingling > sensation in my arms and > legs not unlike a very minor Niacin flush. This lasts for > 1 1/2 hours. > (definitely Carnosine dependent, as when I don't take it > I don't have this > very noticible reaction) Does this mean that it is being > absorbed? I can't say whether your reacting to the carnosine itself or to a metabolite. I get a niacin-like flush from both GABA and glycine but need at least a 2-gram dosage of either. I do have a hypothesis. Carnosine is a dipeptide made up of the amino acids beta-alanine and l-histidine. L-histidine is the precursor from which the body synthesizes histamine. Histamine is what is normally released from mast cells in response to injury or allergens. It is also released by a few chemical triggers such as capsaicin from red pepper or fast-release niacin. My guess is that carnosine is breaking down somewhere and the body is unable to store the free histidine so it gets converted into histamine. For my hypothesis to be correct, the rate-limiter for histamine production must be the availability of L-histidine. I can't think of any other synthesis that doesn't have a controlling feedback loop. Another related hypothesis is that L-carnosine doesn't normally circulate in the plasma. The liver doesn't normally destroy desirable products. L-carnosine is probably synthesized within the target cells. Your symptom may be telling you that the L-carnosine is making it to locations where it would not otherwise be present. The information on carnosine available at www.lef.org has expanded significantly since my last visit. I've got to give them credit for all the research citations and the mix of in-vivo with in-vitro. Thanks for reminding me about L-carnosine. I'm impressed enough to add it back to my personal protocol. I still have an unopened bottle of powder from Beyond-A-Century which (for now) is the lowest-cost provider. I also found some interesting quotes there: " Glutamate binding to its cellular receptors nearly doubled in the carnosine treated group. Since glutamate is the main excitatory neurotransmitter, this may explain the more normal behavioral reactivity of the carnosine-fed mice. " " Carnosine and glutamate are found together in presynaptic terminals in the brain. Experimental evidence shows that carnosine protects cells against excitotoxic death, supporting the notion that carnosine serves the same purpose in the brain. An interesting Russian study showed that rat cerebellar cells incubated in carnosine were resistant to excitotoxic cell death from the glutamate analogs NMDA and kainite (Boldyrev A et al.,1999). " The above continues to build my personal hypothesis that glutamate is a net plus for brain function and that excitotoxicity depends on hypoxia or lack of protective factors. One might want to temporarily reduce glutamate activity in the latter situations but to do so in general is to induce senescent behavior sooner. Bob Cruder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 I am posting about this again because it's driving me crazy. Every time I take my amino's they feeds my bad bacteria and I feel terrible. Is this just something I have to deal with or have some of you found a good amino acid supplement (not whey) that does not do this and does not make you feel terrible? I need to take amino's to help with detoxing and muscle building and with everything else they are supposed to do. I feel better in the area's I just mentioned when taking amino's but I can't stand how my stomach feels when I take them because the amino's feed my bad bacteria. Thank you, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 I can't stand how my stomach feels when I > take them because the amino's feed my bad bacteria. Thank you, , I take LPP brand of predigested protein, 3 grams a day but I do not know if predigested protein still feeds the bad bacteria?? Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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