Re: Elemental Diet & Pimentel?

[Guest guest]

Rich and others;

What Rich posted about Dec 11th regarding the elemental diet and Dr. Mark

Pimentel's work makes sense to me. Rich, you explained it very clearly. I did a

lot of searching and found Pimental's research on antibiotic treatment, but not

fasting or Vivonex.

1. Do you have links to where I can find out more about Pimental's work with

fasting or Vivonex? I checked pubmedline.

2. Do you think the bacteria Pimentel refers to includes candida?

3. You mentioned that fasting for two weeks could eliminate bacteria. As far as

you know, is it the same length of time for people using Vivonex? I am guessing

that he uses Vivionex Plus due to extra glutamine.

http://www.novartisnutrition.com/us/productDetail?id=20 & source=summary

4. The Novartis Vivionex web site says the Vivionex protein is from " free amino

acids " . Do you think this is the same as free-form and L-crystalline?

5. I have noticed that over 5 grams of free-form tablets at one time can create

a sharp pain in my kidney. Nitrogen?

6. Vivonex is expensive, high in carbs and I expect the maltodextrin is corn

based. I would have thought high carbs would be contraindicated for candida.

Perhaps the maltodextrin is absorbed too quickly to feed candida?

It would take a lot preparation to make a commitment to an elemental diet for a

day, never mind 2 weeks or more. I am playing with the idea of creating my own

" Vivonex " concoction. Recipe: All-Basic Powder from Montiff as a base. Glutamine

and certain other aminos increased. Not sure how to get enough carbs to prevent

extreme ketosis. Xylitol? For vitamins, perhaps a high quality liquid multiple?

My concoction sounds not only elemental, but quite devoid of life energy. I

would prefer to use Spirulina or Chlorella and/or undenatured whey -- if they

would still work.

Also, it would seem that an elemental diet could cause a detox crisis.

Comments welcome.

Thanks,

~jeanne

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks. Since I am severely hypoglycemic, I wouldn't do glucose, or even

maltodextrin, so that rules out Vitronex. I took a very quick glance a the SCD

diet. My diet is usually much lower in carbs and also more limited in choices

due to food allergies/sensitivities. I have been so obsessively focused on

controlling blood sugar and food sensitivities, that I have nearly forgotten

about the digestive process. I have to think about whether the large intestine

is before or after the small. <LOL> I will look at an Anatomy & Physiology book

and read up on the reasoning behind the SCD approach. The first 3 feet of the

small intestine possibly being free of bacteria is intriguing. Glad to hear the

HCL is working for you. I take digestive enzymes and HCL when I remember.

" Semi-fasting, " even for part of a day, has long been my way of dealing with the

inability to digest and the consequent effect on cognition and energy. I often

feel a underlying sense of doom when I have a meal, because I never know how it

will affect my abilities. For years, I lived predominately on Ultra Clear Plus

and vegetables. This worked pretty well until I became sensitive to rice. For

longer semi-fasts, I would like to find a safe carb so I can stay out of extreme

ketosis. But more importantly, I need to figure out and maintain a regular diet

that addresses hypoglycemia, sensitivities, candida and other bacteria, as well

as digestion. I admire the person on another post-hey, --who says he chews

his morning drink. Wow! I am sure it would a lot help if I could develop the

habit of chewing each bite of food mucho mucho veces (many many times). I want

to thank you, and Rich for bringing digestion to the forefront of my

attention.

Regards,

~jeanne

[Guest guest]

Jeanne,

> Rich and others;

>

> What Rich posted about Dec 11th regarding the elemental diet and

Dr. Mark Pimentel's work makes sense to me. Rich, you explained it

very clearly.

Thanks, I'm glad it made sense.

I did a lot of searching and found Pimental's research on antibiotic

treatment, but not fasting or Vivonex.

> 1. Do you have links to where I can find out more about Pimental's

work with fasting or Vivonex? I checked pubmedline.

I got this information from a tape of a talk given by Dr. Pimentel

at the FMS-CFS clinical conference in Los Angeles this past

September. If you want to get this tape, it is entitled " The Role

of Bacterial Overgrowth in Fibromyalgia, " by Mark Pimentel, M.D.,

Tape #3, FIB-022, available from Insta-Tapes, Inc., P.O. Box 908,

Coeur d'Alene, ID 83816-0908, phone 1-800-NOW-TAPE, for $12 plus $1

shipping and handling.

There isn't too much more detail on these topics on the tape beyond

what I reported. He does have more publications submitted for

publication, but they aren't out yet.

> 2. Do you think the bacteria Pimentel refers to includes candida?

I don't think he mentioned Candida, but maybe he did.

> 3. You mentioned that fasting for two weeks could eliminate

bacteria. As far as you know, is it the same length of time for

people using Vivonex? I am guessing that he uses Vivionex Plus due

to extra glutamine.

http://www.novartisnutrition.com/us/productDetail?

id=20 & source=summary

I think he was referring to the over-the-counter version of

Vivonex. I think that one is called " T.E.N. " Walgreen's sells it.

I don't recall whether he said how long the treatment was.

> 4. The Novartis Vivionex web site says the Vivionex protein is

from " free amino acids " . Do you think this is the same as free-form

and L-crystalline?

Yes, those are all the same.

> 5. I have noticed that over 5 grams of free-form tablets at one

time can create a sharp pain in my kidney. Nitrogen?

When you burn amino acids for fuel, ammonia is produced from the

nitrogen in the amino acids. It's supposed to be converted to urea

by the liver, and dumped into the urine by the kidneys. It may be

that this system is being overloaded in your body when you take this

much at once. Drinking more water may help.

> 6. Vivonex is expensive, high in carbs and I expect the

maltodextrin is corn based. I would have thought high carbs would be

contraindicated for candida. Perhaps the maltodextrin is absorbed

too quickly to feed candida?

Maybe so. I think it is made from cornstarch, by a partial

digestion process. It contains glucose, maltose, and some larger

saccharides.

>

> It would take a lot preparation to make a commitment to an

elemental diet for a day, never mind 2 weeks or more. I am playing

with the idea of creating my own " Vivonex " concoction. Recipe: All-

Basic Powder from Montiff as a base. Glutamine and certain other

aminos increased. Not sure how to get enough carbs to prevent

extreme ketosis. Xylitol? For vitamins, perhaps a high quality

liquid multiple? My concoction sounds not only elemental, but quite

devoid of life energy. I would prefer to use Spirulina or Chlorella

and/or undenatured whey -- if they would still work.

It sounds like quite a challenge to come up with your own formula

that has enough caloric content. The vitamins, minerals, and free

form amino acids would be fairly easy to come by, but you do need to

get some fats and carbohydrates in there as well, and these are a

little trickier. Maybe there is another elemental diet product

already put together that would work better for you than this one.

Are you allergic to corn?

>

> Also, it would seem that an elemental diet could cause a detox

crisis.

I assume you mean because there's no fiber. Yes, that's something

to think about, too. Perhaps you could add some indigestible fiber

to the mix to take care of that.

>

> Comments welcome.

>

> Thanks,

>

> ~jeanne

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[Guest guest]

Jeanne,

I can see that is is very tricky to get enough calories from an

elemental diet without shooting your blood glucose level up too high

if you are a PWC with not-such-good glucose tolerance.

I think the oil might be a problem, because oils are the toughest

things to digest, and it may take quite a length of small intestine

to do that, especially if your bile production is not too high or

your pancreatic lipase is low. That may mean that the bugs would

get a good shot at the fatty acids that come from breakdown of the

oils.

Another possibility, admittedly not very convenient, would be to go

ahead and use maltodextrin for the calories, but eat several small

batches during the day, so that the blood glucose doesn't go wacko.

Maybe this would give you enough calories while still starving out

the bad bugs.

Rich

> Rich,

>

> Thank-you for all your comments. I found a company, Alpha

Nutrition in Canada, that offers a less expensive Elemental Diet

Formula. It is less expensive due to exchange rates if you are in

the U.S. The company has been offering EDF for 10+ years.

http://www.alphanutrition.com/alphanutrition/productinformation.htm

For anyone interested there is quite a bit of information on this

site about elemental diets for CFIDS, FM and food allergies.

>

> I am concerned about the amount of carbs in these formulas. With a

minimum of 3 servings a day which is about 1000 calories there is

more than 220 grams of high glycemic carbs! Scary, for this glucose

intolerant person. I am not convinced that spreading it out over the

day wouldn't still be intolerable for this hypoglycemic and I don't

think I am willing to risk it. I am considering trying to make my

own formulation using with about 100 grams of carbs spread over the

day. 100 grams of maltodextrin has about 330 calories as I recall.

Apparently the maltodextrin is so processed that the corn shouldn't

be an issue. I could buy my own maltodextrin. For fiber they use

micro-cellulose which I could not find a source for. Because I am

not able to find the micro-cellulose and I am not sure of what other

fiber to use I may use Alpha's products as a base.

>

> I could buy Alpha's no carb, no fat, no calorie formula (DMX) for

diabetics that has micro-cellulose in it, and add my amount of

maltodextrin to it. I would still need more calories. Alpha's EDF

uses a small amount of safflower oil, so I wonder if I could just

take in a much larger amount of calories from oil. For example, 600+

calories of oil a day. I can use olive, flax, cod liver on a

rotation, but my main question is would I just be feeding the very

bacteria I am trying to eliminate. There are studies that show that

both flax and EPA/DHA helps eliminate harmful bacteria so I am

hoping that taking these oils might benefit rather than defeat the

process. I read a reference to a Japanese study (I can't find it

now) that talked about this and the difference between using fish

oils and flax. As I recall, EPA from fish oil was more absorbable.

>

> Alpha Nutrition states that 7 to 10 days on their EDF may be all

one needs to eliminate the harmful bacteria. They recommend buying a

booklet they sell on how to prepare and then transition off that I

haven't yet decided whether I need to invest in. The high chance of

eliminating the buggers that are underlying a lot of my problems in

less than 21 days could be a motivator. Yet, I don't want to

undermine my health and I don't have much fat to burn. And, it seems

that I would need to be prepared for toxins stored in fat cells

since childhood exposures to be released and for that reason I can

imagine I would take extra grape seed and other antioxidants. Do I

have a viable plan?

>

> Comments welcome.

> ~jeanne