Re: Dr. Cheney - breathing technique

[Guest guest]

I have to read more on the breathing technique, but I know when I take some

deep breaths, not quite but almost hyperventilating, that I feel a warmness

(and I assume oxygen}, spread to my hands and feet, which often are cold and

blue-ish. My sense has been it is of help.

Jim

[Guest guest]

Rich,

That's right, Cheney's theory was to simulate what athletes do - train at

high altitude so the body becomes more efficient with oxygen delivery, right?

Do you mean 2,3 DPG {not BPG}? That's not measurable yet for the public, is

it?

I think the deep breathing, causing that warm feeling, is helpful. Not

positive. Being an ex-athlete, we would try to saturate the bloodstream w/

oxygen just before a race, so that's kind of what I'm doing, especially

before I exert, since I go anaerobic very quickly {which I think is much more

than just deconditioning}.

My CO2 level once was high, several other times normal. I definitely have

circulatory problems {when I'm not doing well} - high rest heart rate, cold

extremeties, purplish extremeties, brain fog {which is alleviated when I lie

down, getting more blood to the brain}.

No lung disease, no major heart trouble {some PVC's, mitrovalve prolapse,

minor murmur}. It seems to be like what happens to people when they get the

flu - cold extremeties. Does anyone know why that is?

Jim

[Guest guest]

> I have to read more on the breathing technique, but I know when I

take some

> deep breaths, not quite but almost hyperventilating, that I feel a

warmness

> (and I assume oxygen}, spread to my hands and feet, which often are

cold and

> blue-ish. My sense has been it is of help.

>

> Jim

Jim,

That's interesting. I think it means that in your case not enough

oxygen is being transported to your capillaries. When you take deep

breaths, you put more oxygen into your arterial blood and you lower

the carbon dioxide level. Lowering the carbon dioxide level actually

causes the oxygen to be bound more tightly to the hemoglobin. If

this type of breathing helps you, it suggests that the thing limiting

oxygen transport to your tissues is not too little carbon dioxide in

the blood, leading to too alkaline blood and too tight binding of

oxygen to hemoglobin, but too little oxygen in the blood. Do you

have a history of lung disease? How about heart disease? Have you

had your total red blood cell mass measured? Do you have evidence of

hypercoagulation, such as very low sed rate or other specialized

coagulation tests such as ISAC?

Taking deep breaths, almost hyperventilating, does the opposite of

what the Weil breathing exercise, advocated by Dr. Cheney, does. In

that exercise, the person holds their breath, lowering the oxygen

level in the arterial blood and raising the carbon dioxide level.

The idea is that this will cause the red blood cells to produce more

2,3 BPG over time, which will cause the hemoglobin to release oxygen

to the tissues more easily. This helps many PWCs, because the thing

limiting oxygen supply to their tissues is low carbon dioxide,

leading to too alkaline blood and tight binding of oxygen to their

hemoglobin.

I think this is another example of PWCs being in different subsets.

Rich

[Guest guest]

> Rich,

>

> That's right, Cheney's theory was to simulate what athletes do -

train at

> high altitude so the body becomes more efficient with oxygen

delivery, right?

>

> Do you mean 2,3 DPG {not BPG}? That's not measurable yet for the

public, is

> it?

>

> I think the deep breathing, causing that warm feeling, is helpful.

Not

> positive. Being an ex-athlete, we would try to saturate the

bloodstream w/

> oxygen just before a race, so that's kind of what I'm doing,

especially

> before I exert, since I go anaerobic very quickly {which I think is

much more

> than just deconditioning}.

>

> My CO2 level once was high, several other times normal. I

definitely have

> circulatory problems {when I'm not doing well} - high rest heart

rate, cold

> extremeties, purplish extremeties, brain fog {which is alleviated

when I lie

> down, getting more blood to the brain}.

>

> No lung disease, no major heart trouble {some PVC's, mitrovalve

prolapse,

> minor murmur}. It seems to be like what happens to people when

they get the

> flu - cold extremeties. Does anyone know why that is?

>

> Jim

Jim,

2,3 BPG is the new name for the same substance. The D stands for " di-

" m while the B stands for " bi- " . Big deal, huh?

I think some labs do measure it. It's in my new lab & diagnostic

tests manual. The sample has to be iced and analyzed right away,

because 2,3 BPG doesn't hang around long.

Cold extremities mean that the metabolic rate in the peripheral

tissues, including the skeletal muscles is low, so the cells aren't

generating as much heat as normal. Various things can cause this.

When a normal, healthy person catches the flu, I suspect it's caused

by the immune system grabbing the glutathione precursors in order to

go after the viruses, so that the muscles don't get their usual

supply. This puts partial blockades into their Krebs cycles and

slows their metabolic rate.

It would be interesting to know how you would do on oxygen

treatment. If you improved, that would be more evidence that your

metabolic rate is being limited by oxygen transport to your tissues.

Rich

[Guest guest]

rvankonynen wrote:

> Taking deep breaths, almost hyperventilating, does the opposite of

> what the Weil breathing exercise, advocated by Dr. Cheney, does. In

> that exercise, the person holds their breath, lowering the oxygen

> level in the arterial blood and raising the carbon dioxide level.

> The idea is that this will cause the red blood cells to produce more

> 2,3 BPG over time, which will cause the hemoglobin to release oxygen

> to the tissues more easily. This helps many PWCs, because the thing

> limiting oxygen supply to their tissues is low carbon dioxide,

> leading to too alkaline blood and tight binding of oxygen to their

> hemoglobin.

>

I wonder if there's a correlation...

Some diets (e.g. macrobiotic) criticize meat-heavy diets as producing too acidic

blood. I know that the macrobiotic diet made me really sick after I got CFIDS,

and that my body absolutely craves

animal protein, in large amounts, on a regular basis.

So if I'm eating lots of meat etc and making my blood more acidic, would this

tend to counteract the alkaline blood condition you describe, loosen the binding

of oxygen to hemoglobin, and thereby

increase the ability to get oxygen to the muscles and other tissues?

--

el (andrea@...) Nevada City, CA, USA

" ...wake now! Discover that you are the song

that the morning brings... "

" One is taught by experience to put a premium

on those few people who can appreciate you

for what you are. " - Gail Godwin

[Guest guest]

>

> > Taking deep breaths, almost hyperventilating, does the opposite of

> > what the Weil breathing exercise, advocated by Dr. Cheney, does.

In

> > that exercise, the person holds their breath, lowering the oxygen

> > level in the arterial blood and raising the carbon dioxide level.

> > The idea is that this will cause the red blood cells to produce

more

> > 2,3 BPG over time, which will cause the hemoglobin to release

oxygen

> > to the tissues more easily. This helps many PWCs, because the

thing

> > limiting oxygen supply to their tissues is low carbon dioxide,

> > leading to too alkaline blood and tight binding of oxygen to their

> > hemoglobin.

> >

>

> I wonder if there's a correlation...

>

> Some diets (e.g. macrobiotic) criticize meat-heavy diets as

producing too acidic blood. I know that the macrobiotic diet made me

really sick after I got CFIDS, and that my body absolutely craves

> animal protein, in large amounts, on a regular basis.

>

> So if I'm eating lots of meat etc and making my blood more acidic,

would this tend to counteract the alkaline blood condition you

describe, loosen the binding of oxygen to hemoglobin, and thereby

> increase the ability to get oxygen to the muscles and other tissues?

,

As far as I know, meat-heavy diets do not have a significant effect

on the pH of the blood, which continues to be controlled in a fairly

tight window by the kidneys and the lungs. Meat-heavy diets

definitely acidify the urine, because the kidneys move the urine pH

around wherever they need to to control the blood pH fairly tightly.

I suspect that the reason your body does better on a meat-heavy diet

is that you have partial blockades early in the Krebs cycles of your

red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle cells, and probably in some other

types of cells as well, such as neurons. Because of this, these

cells are not able to utilize carbohydrates and fats as well as

normal, because these fuels must enter at the top of the Krebs cycles

as acetyl Co-A. Protein, on the other hand, is broken up into amino

acids. Some of these can be interconverted into each other by

transamination reactions, and some of them can enter the Krebs cycles

beyond the point where the blockades are located. Protein is thus a

much more flexible fuel. The result is that you can utilize protein

as a fuel for making ATP better than you can utilize carbohydrates

and fats. If you eat much of these latter two, much of them will be

converted to stored fat, because they cannot be burned at a very high

rate. this will be a very stubborn weight gain, because the skeletal

muscle cells cannot burn fat well in your case. These problems will

be present until the blockades are removed. In my view, eating a

high-meat diet is a good thing to do in the meantime, but the

strategic thing is to figure out how to remove the partial

blockades. For many PWCs, I think the answer for doing this is to

manage to replenish the glutathione.

By the way, the fact that you do better on meat says that the problem

is in early part of the Krebs cycles and not in the respiratory

chains. Some PWCs don't benefit much from high-meat diets, because

their problem is in the respiratory chains, or at the bottom of the

chains, where oxygen is required as the final electron acceptor. If

they have a problem getting oxygen to the cells, for example because

their lungs are not putting enough oxygen into the blood, or because

the heart has difficulty pumping the blood at a sufficient rate, or

because there aren't enough total red blood cells, high-meat diets

won't help them. This is one way to diagnose where the problem lies.

Rich

[Guest guest]

Is there anything magical about the " 7 " in this one, or do you think

4-8-8 would work as well? The reason I ask is that my

> mind/body has a much easier time keeping its place in the latter,

and I don't have to think so hard ;@)

>

>

> --

>

> el (andrea@o...) Nevada City, CA, USA

===============================================================

I too was wondering about this.

To simplify things for me. I have been just holding my breath until

I feel the first urge to breath (usually around 20 counts). On the

last two breaths, I try to go for as long as I can holding my breath.

I have found that if I try to hold my breath for too long, other than

the last two, I run out of oxygen, get out of rhythm, and have to

stop.

It just seemed reasonable to me that, if holding your breath was the

objective, then the more the better. But, I may be wrong. So far,

so good. Though, I haven't noticed any difference in my well being

from this exercise in 2 months.

What is interesting is the changes in my ability to hold my breath.

On days when I feel better, I can go up to 30 or more counts

consistently. On days when I feel rotten, I can hardly go for 15

counts. Seems like this difference would be significant from a

research standpoint?

Best,

Zippy

[Guest guest]

>

> > I suspect that the reason your body does better on a meat-heavy

diet

> > is that you have partial blockades early in the Krebs cycles of

your

> > red, " slow-twitch " skeletal muscle cells, and probably in some

other

> > types of cells as well, such as neurons. Because of this, these

> > cells are not able to utilize carbohydrates and fats as well as

> > normal, because these fuels must enter at the top of the Krebs

cycles

> > as acetyl Co-A. Protein, on the other hand, is broken up into

amino

> > acids. Some of these can be interconverted into each other by

> > transamination reactions, and some of them can enter the Krebs

cycles

> > beyond the point where the blockades are located. Protein is

thus a

> > much more flexible fuel. The result is that you can utilize

protein

> > as a fuel for making ATP better than you can utilize carbohydrates

> > and fats. If you eat much of these latter two, much of them will

be

> > converted to stored fat, because they cannot be burned at a very

high

> > rate. this will be a very stubborn weight gain, because the

skeletal

> > muscle cells cannot burn fat well in your case.

>

> Boy, did you hit that one on the head! (Do you have a secret spy-

cam installed in my house? :@)

>

> > These problems will

> > be present until the blockades are removed. In my view, eating a

> > high-meat diet is a good thing to do in the meantime, but the

> > strategic thing is to figure out how to remove the partial

> > blockades. For many PWCs, I think the answer for doing this is to

> > manage to replenish the glutathione.

>

> Sounds like I should go back to doing the whey, then! Any other

suggestions for removing the blockages? Does N-acetyl-cysteine (sp?)

work for this?

>

>

>

> --

>

> el (andrea@o...) Nevada City, CA, USA

> " ...wake now! Discover that you are the song

> that the morning brings... "

>

> " One is taught by experience to put a premium

> on those few people who can appreciate you

> for what you are. " - Gail Godwin

,

Nope, no secret spy-cams! Just the inexhorable logic of

biochemistry, hopefully correctly applied!

Yes, NAC together with a good high-protein diet will work, but it's

important to keep the amount of NAC down to 300 mg per day if you

think you might have much mercury in your body, according to Dr.

Quig of Doctor's Data Labs in Chicago. If you can handle

nondenatured whey protein, such as ImmunePro RX, I think that's the

best way to go. Again, mercury is an issue, so you need to assure

yourself that it isn't high, either because you don't have silver

amalgam fillings and haven't eaten much large predatory types of

fish, or because you have been tested and found that it's low.

Rich

[Guest guest]

I think 4/8/8 is fine, but I don't think just holding your breath does the

same thing. This is just based on experimentation.

Thanks,

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: " bhp355 " <zippy890@...>

> Is there anything magical about the " 7 " in this one, or do you think

> 4-8-8 would work as well? The reason I ask is that my

> > mind/body has a much easier time keeping its place in the latter,

> and I don't have to think so hard ;@)

> >

>> ===============================================================

>

> I too was wondering about this.

>

> To simplify things for me. I have been just holding my breath until

> I feel the first urge to breath (usually around 20 counts). On the

> last two breaths, I try to go for as long as I can holding my breath.