Re: 'burning muscles/lactic

[Guest guest]

Cort,

All oxidative metabolism produces some oxidative free radicals. The

more exercise, the more metabolism, and the more free radicals are

produced. In a normal, healthy person there is enough glutathione in

the skeletal muscle cells to quench most of the free radicals. In

PWCs, there isn't, so the free radicals are able to attack lipids,

proteins, and DNA in the muscle cells. This takes time to repair,

and I suspect that is why these sensations you describe peak a day or

two after exercise. Note that I have suggested that the blockades in

the Krebs cycles are only " partial, " not complete, in CFS, so the

muscle cells still carry on oxidative metabolism, just not as much as

in normal, healthy people.

I think the best thing to do is to try to rebuild the glutathione and

thus remove the partial blockades and give the cells back their

protection against free radicals.

I think there have been some studies that have found elevated lactic

acid. I'll have to track that down. But bear in mind that if the

mitochondrial shuttles are operating efficiently, as they seem to in

many PWCs, and perhaps in you, the pyruvate is not reduced to

lactate, because the muscles are operating on aerobic glycolysis, not

anaerobic glycolysis. It is just carried to the liver by the blood

stream as pyruvate, and the liver then converts that to glucose. In

that case one would not experience burning pain in the muscles at the

time of exercise, but the pain due to the free radical damage would

still show up later. That may be what's going on in your case.

Rich

> This is one of my more prevalent symptoms. Its never been

explained

> to me and I've never, that I can recall, seen it listed in cfs

> symptomology. These hot, dry-feeling, constricted muscle

sensations

> peak at day or two after exercise (particularly with light

weights).

> Moving them is painful. This feeling is accompanied by

irritability,

> brain fog, etc. Interestingly enough exercising with them in this

state

> will wipe out the sensation temporarily but will cause it to build

> later on. I can also feel the muscles getting stronger and

larger -

> so something is going right - but the aftermath is terrible. Richs

> recent post to Jim Clements brought it up. My questions are -

whats

> causing this, why does it peak often several days after exercise,

and

> can anything be done to ameliorate the situation? Lastly, I would

> really like to know why exercise for PWC's results in high free

radical

> formation?

> I read a study on lactic acid which did NOT find high lactic

acid

> levels in the muscles of PWC's. Before I had CFS heavy exercise

never

> created any sensations remotely similar (except for stiffness) to

this.

> Its doesn't feel to me like just more lactic acid. If it was then

I

> can't imagine why this study didnt pick it up - in spades?

> Any responses would be very much appreciated.

[Guest guest]

Cort,

Here's an abstract reporting that elevated lactate was found in some

PWCs, but not all:

Muscle fibre characteristics and lactate responses to exercise in

chronic fatigue syndrome.

Lane RJ, Barrett MC, Woodrow D, Moss J, Fletcher R, Archard LC.

Division of Neuroscience and Psychological Medicine, Imperial College

School of Medicine, Charing Cross Hospital, London, UK.

r.lane@...

OBJECTIVES: To examine the proportions of type 1 and type 2 muscle

fibres and the degree of muscle fibre atrophy and hypertrophy in

patients with chronic fatigue syndrome in relation to lactate

responses to exercise, and to determine to what extent any

abnormalities found might be due to inactivity. METHODS: Quadriceps

needle muscle biopsies were obtained from 105 patients with chronic

fatigue syndrome and the proportions of type 1 and 2 fibres and fibre

atrophy and hypertrophy factors were determined from histochemical

preparations, using a semiautomated image analysis system. Forty one

randomly selected biopsies were also examined by electron microscopy.

Lactate responses to exercise were measured in the subanaerobic

threshold exercise test (SATET). RESULTS: Inactivity would be

expected to result in a shift to type 2 fibre predominance and fibre

atrophy, but type 1 predominance (23%) was more common than type 2

predominance (3%), and fibre atrophy was found in only 10.4% of

cases. Patients with increased lactate responses to exercise did have

significantly fewer type 1 muscle fibres (p<0.043 males, p<0.0003

females), but there was no evidence that this group was less active

than the patients with normal lactate responses. No significant

ultrastructural abnormalities were found. CONCLUSION: Muscle

histometry in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome generally did

not show the changes expected as a result of inactivity. However,

patients with abnormal lactate responses to exercise had a

significantly lower proportion of mitochondria rich type 1 muscle

fibres.

Rich

[Guest guest]

I get the same phenomena. In my case, it took a while to learn of this

delayed response. What got me was any kind of sudden, all out effort

{lifting something heavy, running up steps}. That burning feeling is aweful,

and before I learned to take better care, I was really pushing myself to my

limits often and I would feel like I burning up even when it was freezing out.

I did also have times where, if I kept moving in the few days after, it would

delay the " penalty " phase. I don't know if it's similar to what happens when

you get injured {e.g. get kicked in a game}, but you don't get sore from it

until the next morning, when the body is allowed to start the healing process.

I know for me part of it was early buildup of lactic acid. Part of it is

probably inflammation. For a while, it was also thought I had trouble

metabolizing fats, and so my body may have turned to protein {muscles} as

fuel, which may have contributed some.

Jim

In a message dated 9/14/02 11:55:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

johnson_cort@... writes:

<< These hot, dry-feeling, constricted muscle sensations

peak at day or two after exercise (particularly with light weights).

Moving them is painful. This feeling is accompanied by irritability,

brain fog, etc. Interestingly enough exercising with them in this state

will wipe out the sensation temporarily but will cause it to build

later on. >>

[Guest guest]

This is me. The burning, aching, and now " sausage feeling " behind my knees

starts the day after I do any kind of walking, but is worse the second day,

and may linger for several days. Makes it real hard to figure out how often

to attempt to exercise. They say every other day, but in this case, do we

wait until the burning stops, or try to work through it, and hope you

haven't added insult to injury?

Donna in NC

Re: 'burning muscles/lactic

> I get the same phenomena. In my case, it took a while to learn of this

delayed response. What got me was any kind of sudden, all out effort

{lifting something heavy, running up steps}. That burning feeling is

aweful, and before I learned to take better care, I was really pushing

myself to my limits often and I would feel like I burning up even when it

was freezing out.

>

> I did also have times where, if I kept moving in the few days after, it

would delay the " penalty " phase. I don't know if it's similar to what

happens when you get injured {e.g. get kicked in a game}, but you don't get

sore from it until the next morning, when the body is allowed to start the

healing process.

>

> I know for me part of it was early buildup of lactic acid. Part of it is

probably inflammation. For a while, it was also thought I had trouble

metabolizing fats, and so my body may have turned to protein {muscles} as

fuel, which may have contributed some.

>

> Jim

>

> In a message dated 9/14/02 11:55:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> johnson_cort@... writes:

>

> << These hot, dry-feeling, constricted muscle sensations peak at day or

two after exercise (particularly with light weights). Moving them is

painful. This feeling is accompanied by irritability, brain fog, etc.

Interestingly enough exercising with them in this state will wipe out the

sensation temporarily but will cause it to build later on. >>

[Guest guest]

Nil,

Gotta disagree. Categorizing burning muscles as a purely FM indication is

too simplistic. I have that sensation when I strenuously overdo it, but even

though when I don't overdo it, I don't get that burning, I still have most of

my other CFS symptoms.

Jim

[Guest guest]

Hi Jim,

I think some of us have both CFS and FM and some has only CFS.May be FM

covers CFS symptoms but CFS does not cover much pain.Don't know.

Thanks.

Nil

Re: 'burning muscles/lactic

| Nil,

|

| Gotta disagree. Categorizing burning muscles as a purely FM indication is

| too simplistic. I have that sensation when I strenuously overdo it, but

even

| though when I don't overdo it, I don't get that burning, I still have most

of

| my other CFS symptoms.

|

| Jim

|

|

| This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

|

|

[Guest guest]

Nil,

I have both. The CFIDS came on a few years before the FM. My PCP actually

thinks I have RSD, and one of my genetic coagulation defects affects the

myelin sheath, thus increasing my neural pain. This is the most pain I have

experienced in over 6 years, but this is the first time I've tried to do any

walking (we're talking one block here), in several years. I don't think this

is FM, as this is not what the FMS'ers describe on their list. I do believe

pain is a part of the CFIDS profile, as it's on all the questionnaires I

fill out. I've just not had any until this year - other than excruciating

migraines.

Donna in NC

Ynt: 'burning muscles/lactic

> Hi all!

>

> After reading these notes I am thinking that this must be FM. Sorry that

youhave these problems.Myself,having CFS,even though have some pain on my

body(probably due to long periods of immobility) have never experienced

symptom of burning muscles. I really think it would be very helpful if we

can indicate if we have CFS or fm at the end of our notes. This will help us

not to be confused about different therapies done for CFS and FM.I

personally will start adding this info to my notes.If I don't forget:)

>

> Thanks.

> Nil,CFS

[Guest guest]

Cort,

I'm glad pushing yourself allowed you to overcome the burning sensation.

It's rather shocking to me, as my {many} attempts at that made me

continuously worse. Others have said the same.

Go figure,

Jim

[Guest guest]

As always thank you very much for all the info. You may be right about

the free radicals. I was able to overcome the burning sensations in my

muscles during one period by pushing the envelope further and further (it

actually did feel like an envelope - like something encasing my muscles)

until after several weeks of pushing- when it was at its most extreme - it

just slipped away, and I was able for the next several months to hike pretty

much as I pleased. I still remember the exact place that in that one

instant soemthing switched over and my body was somehow changed

dramatically. It was during that period that that I began to develop what

has really crippled me in many ways - my chemical sensitivities - which have

gotten worse and worse and worse. Maybe that was the price I paid for

pushing it too much; an enormous increase in free radicals which was somehow

temporarily resolved by some process but which showed up eventually in

incredible chemical sensitivities. I asked Cheney about it but he didnt

have a clue.

As addenda to burning muscles, I just read low magnesium in muscles can

result in high calcium, causing stiff muscles in CFS>

>From: " rvankonynen " <richvank@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: Re: 'burning muscles/lactic

>Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:15:33 -0000

>

>

>

>Cort,

>

>All oxidative metabolism produces some oxidative free radicals. The

>more exercise, the more metabolism, and the more free radicals are

>produced. In a normal, healthy person there is enough glutathione in

>the skeletal muscle cells to quench most of the free radicals. In

>PWCs, there isn't, so the free radicals are able to attack lipids,

>proteins, and DNA in the muscle cells. This takes time to repair,

>and I suspect that is why these sensations you describe peak a day or

>two after exercise. Note that I have suggested that the blockades in

>the Krebs cycles are only " partial, " not complete, in CFS, so the

>muscle cells still carry on oxidative metabolism, just not as much as

>in normal, healthy people.

>

>I think the best thing to do is to try to rebuild the glutathione and

>thus remove the partial blockades and give the cells back their

>protection against free radicals.

>

>I think there have been some studies that have found elevated lactic

>acid. I'll have to track that down. But bear in mind that if the

>mitochondrial shuttles are operating efficiently, as they seem to in

>many PWCs, and perhaps in you, the pyruvate is not reduced to

>lactate, because the muscles are operating on aerobic glycolysis, not

>anaerobic glycolysis. It is just carried to the liver by the blood

>stream as pyruvate, and the liver then converts that to glucose. In

>that case one would not experience burning pain in the muscles at the

>time of exercise, but the pain due to the free radical damage would

>still show up later. That may be what's going on in your case.

>

>Rich

>

>

> > This is one of my more prevalent symptoms. Its never been

>explained

> > to me and I've never, that I can recall, seen it listed in cfs

> > symptomology. These hot, dry-feeling, constricted muscle

>sensations

> > peak at day or two after exercise (particularly with light

>weights).

> > Moving them is painful. This feeling is accompanied by

>irritability,

> > brain fog, etc. Interestingly enough exercising with them in this

>state

> > will wipe out the sensation temporarily but will cause it to build

> > later on. I can also feel the muscles getting stronger and

>larger -

> > so something is going right - but the aftermath is terrible. Richs

> > recent post to Jim Clements brought it up. My questions are -

>whats

> > causing this, why does it peak often several days after exercise,

>and

> > can anything be done to ameliorate the situation? Lastly, I would

> > really like to know why exercise for PWC's results in high free

>radical

> > formation?

> > I read a study on lactic acid which did NOT find high lactic

>acid

> > levels in the muscles of PWC's. Before I had CFS heavy exercise

>never

> > created any sensations remotely similar (except for stiffness) to

>this.

> > Its doesn't feel to me like just more lactic acid. If it was then

>I

> > can't imagine why this study didnt pick it up - in spades?

> > Any responses would be very much appreciated.

>

>

>

>This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

>other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

>discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Nil,

I do take Toradol when my migraines become intolerable, and have for over 20

years. As to the other pain, I do take Neurontin at a fairly high dose.

Neurontin is given for nerve pain such as peripheral neuropathy, and an neck

MRI from 3 years ago reveals something in the nature of a pinched nerve in

my neck. The neurologist who did the MRI said I wasn't a surgical candidate,

so why worry. Wrote a script for Vicodin, which I promptly threw out. I

think though, that the pinched nerve is from an auto accident many years

ago. Also, my coagulation defect affects nerve endings, so the Neurontin has

been good for several reasons. Other pain meds do nothing for me, and it

wasn't until I started using the Neurontin did my pain ease.Most of my pain

is in the form of headaches, then my neck, my back from my waist to my hip,

and my lower leg and foot. It is almost always just on my right side, and is

mostly in the form of burning, stabbing, heaviness and tingling sensations.

My new PCP is starting to think that some of my pain, especially since it's

so one sided, might be a result of the auto accident, which was severe

enough to require 4 surgeries on my right knee, but remarkably, no one ever

did so much as a set of skeletal x-rays. He's now ordering a total body bone

scan and then a total body MRI and a consult with a neurologist (with only a

diagnosis of pain, not CFIDS or FMS so that I will get a fair evaluation),

just to make sure there wasn't damage done during the accident that is

becoming more severe the more immobilized I have become, or that I'm just

noticing it now the longer I stay immobilized. It's only been the past two

years that pain has been severe enough to need medication (other than

migraine meds). The pain is still not anywhere near the fatigue/exhaustion

or the cognitive loss or the brain fog!

Donna in NC

PS - I only started trying to walk two weeks ago, so definitely some of the

pain exasperation is probably from trying to use muscles that have not been

used for a very long time. My big walk is just around the block, sometimes a

block and a half!

Ynt: 'burning muscles/lactic

> Thanks Donna,

>

> Do you need to take pain killers for your pain? I also have pain but it is

not so much. It,at least does not require any pain killers. I take this

normal because I have been immobile for years. I don't swim,I can not walk

neither do any kind of exercise.Can not take much sunlight.So,I think it is

completely normal to have some pain as our muscles and bones don't work. I

have pain all over.I continious severe pain at my lower back and hip

region. Sometimes the pain at my hips does not allow me to sleep but as I

said above the pain I have does not require any pain killers so far. I can

live with it.No burning sensations ,either. I have this illness for more

than 12 years and I am almost bed-ridden since 2000.So , the fact that I

don't need to use pain killers and have no problems like burning sensations

even though I am at the last level,make my case different than those who

have severe pain.

> Thanks.

> Nil