TH1 CHANGE

[Guest guest]

RICH, is their any other way to change th1 imbalance, other than using

Isoprinosine? Some people cant take it. Thanks, HOWARD

[Guest guest]

Bee stings may be an offbeat (but inexpensive way).

I'm giving it the old college try.

Zippy

---------------------------------------------------------------

> RICH, is their any other way to change th1 imbalance, other than

using

> Isoprinosine? Some people cant take it. Thanks, HOWARD

[Guest guest]

> RICH, is their any other way to change th1 imbalance, other than

using

> Isoprinosine? Some people cant take it. Thanks, HOWARD

,

Sorry to be so slow in responding to your message. I've been on

vacation for nearly a month, back home yesterday, and am behind on e-

mails. If you haven't already gotten an answer to your question, I

suggest that you consult this site:

http://virtualhometown.com/dfwcfids/medical/cavalry.html

Before trying these things, I think it is wise to make sure that your

glutathione is not depleted. If it is, I think it should be restored

first, because I think depletion of glutathione (and cysteine) is

what causes the shift of the immune response to Th2 in CFS. I think

that long term elevation of cortisol (because of stressors) is also

involved in causing this initially, but as you move further into the

disease, the HPA axis is often blunted, and the cortisol level then

drops below normal, so it doesn't leave a " smoking gun, " and you

don't have to do anything to lower it.

Building glutathione is best done with one of the nondenatured

(ImmunePro) or undenatured (Imuplus, Immunocal, etc.) whey protein

products, if you aren't allergic to them, together with a high-

potency general nutritional supplement to supply the vitamin and

mineral cofactors. If you are allergic to them, then I would suggest

the amino acid precursors, as promoted by Jeff at www.cfsn.com.

If this approach just causes elevation of cysteine above normal, but

doesn't build glutathione, then I think it's a good idea to check for

mercury toxicity, because mercury can block at least three enzymes in

the glutathione system. If the mercury is high, then it must be dealt

with before you can build the glutathione, and the glutathione must

be built before you can normalize the immune response.

This should all be viewed as hypothesis rather than proven science,

but I think there is quite a bit of evidence for it. I am not

licensed to diagnose or treat disease, so please view this simply as

information, not medical advice. Consult with your doctor before

deciding to try anything I suggest.

Rich

[Guest guest]

THANKS FOR THE INFO. RICH...UVE BEEN A GREAT HELP. HOWARD

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich and All,

Rich, I would like to know what precursors

to take and

approximately how much to take to build up my glutathione levels.

I would like to be able to go into my local health food / vitamin shop

and get those ingredients as opposed to buying some mixture from

a specific company by mail order.

I can not use the undenatured whey protein as I feel that it seems

to stimulate an autoimmune condition / component of my illness.

Thanks

Mike

[Guest guest]

Mike,

Here is the composition of Jeff 's capsules (from the website

www.cfsn.com):

" Each vegetable capsule contains: 257mg N-acetyl L-cysteine (NAC),

128mg L-glutamic acid, 64mg L-glycine, free form amino acids. "

Glutathione is made of cysteine, glutamic acid, and glycine. I think

the reason for adding the mixture of free form amino acids is make

sure the body doesn't become too out of balance in amino acids, if a

person takes too much. Also, by including branched-chain amino acids

(leucine, isoleucine and valine) in the free form amino acids, this

will help to prevent cysteine bound with mercury from entering the

brain, since they compete for the same transporter proteins.

In addition to these precursors, I suggest making sure you are taking

a general nutritional supplement to get the vitamins and minerals,

since some of them are needed by the enzymes that make glutathione

from the precursors.

Athough Jeff says you can take three of his capsules per day,

Quig, Ph.D., of Doctor's Data Laboratories has written that limiting

NAC to 300 mg per day, together with taking in balanced protein in

the diet, also to prevent moving mercury into the brain. I think it

depends on whether you have a high mercury load in your body or not,

but I would be cautious about this.

If the mercury level in your body is high, the mercury can block the

enzymes of the glutathione system, and they will be unable to make

and use reduced glutathione. In this case, it seems that cysteine

can rise above normal if you take in a lot of cysteine or sulfur-

containing foods. Since cysteine is a neurotoxin itself if it rises

too high, this is something to watch out for.

Another thing to note is that some people don't respond well to

taking glutamic acid, getting a reaction similar to what MSG produces

in some people (Chinese Restaurant Syndrome). If this is an issue

for you, you might try glutamine instead of glutamic acid, since the

body can convert it to glutamic acid and use it for making

glutathione.

I think those are the caveats. I hope some combination works for you.

Rich

> Hi Rich and All,

> Rich, I would like to know what

precursors

> to take and

> approximately how much to take to build up my glutathione levels.

> I would like to be able to go into my local health food / vitamin

shop

> and get those ingredients as opposed to buying some mixture from

> a specific company by mail order.

> I can not use the undenatured whey protein as I feel that it

seems

> to stimulate an autoimmune condition / component of my illness.

>

> Thanks

> Mike

[Guest guest]

Rich!

Sorry if you have explained this before. Is there a way for us to understand

if cysteine values are high in the body without having a lab test done.

Thanks.

Nil

Re: TH1 CHANGE

| Mike,

|

| Here is the composition of Jeff 's capsules (from the website

| www.cfsn.com):

|

| " Each vegetable capsule contains: 257mg N-acetyl L-cysteine (NAC),

| 128mg L-glutamic acid, 64mg L-glycine, free form amino acids. "

|

| Glutathione is made of cysteine, glutamic acid, and glycine. I think

| the reason for adding the mixture of free form amino acids is make

| sure the body doesn't become too out of balance in amino acids, if a

| person takes too much. Also, by including branched-chain amino acids

| (leucine, isoleucine and valine) in the free form amino acids, this

| will help to prevent cysteine bound with mercury from entering the

| brain, since they compete for the same transporter proteins.

|

| In addition to these precursors, I suggest making sure you are taking

| a general nutritional supplement to get the vitamins and minerals,

| since some of them are needed by the enzymes that make glutathione

| from the precursors.

|

|

|

| Athough Jeff says you can take three of his capsules per day,

| Quig, Ph.D., of Doctor's Data Laboratories has written that limiting

| NAC to 300 mg per day, together with taking in balanced protein in

| the diet, also to prevent moving mercury into the brain. I think it

| depends on whether you have a high mercury load in your body or not,

| but I would be cautious about this.

|

| If the mercury level in your body is high, the mercury can block the

| enzymes of the glutathione system, and they will be unable to make

| and use reduced glutathione. In this case, it seems that cysteine

| can rise above normal if you take in a lot of cysteine or sulfur-

| containing foods. Since cysteine is a neurotoxin itself if it rises

| too high, this is something to watch out for.

|

| Another thing to note is that some people don't respond well to

| taking glutamic acid, getting a reaction similar to what MSG produces

| in some people (Chinese Restaurant Syndrome). If this is an issue

| for you, you might try glutamine instead of glutamic acid, since the

| body can convert it to glutamic acid and use it for making

| glutathione.

|

| I think those are the caveats. I hope some combination works for you.

|

| Rich

|

|

| > Hi Rich and All,

| > Rich, I would like to know what

| precursors

| > to take and

| > approximately how much to take to build up my glutathione levels.

| > I would like to be able to go into my local health food / vitamin

| shop

| > and get those ingredients as opposed to buying some mixture from

| > a specific company by mail order.

| > I can not use the undenatured whey protein as I feel that it

| seems

| > to stimulate an autoimmune condition / component of my illness.

| >

| > Thanks

| > Mike

|

|

|

| This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

|

|

[Guest guest]

Nil,

A lab test is the only way I know of to be sure.

Rich

> | > Hi Rich and All,

> | > Rich, I would like to know what

> | precursors

> | > to take and

> | > approximately how much to take to build up my glutathione

levels.

> | > I would like to be able to go into my local health food /

vitamin

> | shop

> | > and get those ingredients as opposed to buying some mixture from

> | > a specific company by mail order.

> | > I can not use the undenatured whey protein as I feel that it

> | seems

> | > to stimulate an autoimmune condition / component of my illness.

> | >

> | > Thanks

> | >

Mike

> |

> |

> |

> | This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> |

> |

[Guest guest]

Rich,

I don't honestly know - I do know that I can't take glutamine (though I used

to take it w/o problem before the DMSA problems), nor can I take aspartame,

aspartate supplements, or aspartic acid. So I suspect I can't tale glutamic

acid. They are all exitotxic in my case - making me jittery, anxious,

irritable and even angry. Dr. Cheney feels that the enzymatic processes

needed for the proper conversion of these substances is screwed up somehow.

I also have urinary wasting of lots of amino acids, all except cystine,

ironically, and don't know if somehow these things are all connected.

I have corresponded with in a while, other than to send e-cards or

fun stuff that makes the e-mail rounds. I hear from that she is doing

well, and riding her bike 5 miles a day. I will try to contact her. I had

forgotten she was so sulfur intolerant.

Thanks for your comments.

Donna in NC

Re: TH1 CHANGE

> Donna,

>

> Can you tolerate glutamic acid? If so, maybe you could try that instead

of glutamine, together with glycine and NAC.

>

> Have you tried taking molybdenum? That supports sulfite oxidase.

>

> Have you corresponded with (used to be on this list but haven't

heard from her for a long time). She was also intolerant of all

sulfur-containing foods, but I think she gradually got more tolerant.

>

> I'll comment on the tests in another post.

>

> Rich

[Guest guest]

Donna wrote:

> I have corresponded with in a while, other than to send e-cards or

> fun stuff that makes the e-mail rounds. I hear from that she is

doing

> well, and riding her bike 5 miles a day. I will try to contact her. I had

> forgotten she was so sulfur intolerant.

>

I'd certainly like to be able to walk through a park again, not to mention

actually being able to ride a bicycle. I realize that we're all different,

but it would certainly be interesting to know what helped this person. Does

anyone know?

Thanks.

LaRue

CFS 2 1/2 years, FMS 6 years