Re: Hyperbaric o2: need for scientific explanation

[Guest guest]

I did the hyperbaric treatment with pure oxygen,

twenty treatments. I read up on it. It had zero effect on

my CFIDS symptoms. but... its probably very effective

on problems like broken bones, burns and wounds that

wont heal

-- Hyperbaric o2: need for scientific explanation

Hello,

I have been receiving emails about the positive

aspects of the Hyperbaric oxygen treatment.

My only reservation is that if it were so positive,

why don't people try it and why dont experienced and

knowledgeable doctors like Dr.Cheney not recomment

this?

Does any CFIDS/lyme specialist recommend this?

Can anybody give me a good reason as to why the CFIDS

symptoms not reappear much after this Hyperbaric

treatment is stopped? What would happen if one were to

go to a low pressure area?

I warn unscruplous marketers to not reply to this

email with your usual marketing BS. If you want to

reply, do so with actual sceintifically established

results.

Thanks,

Prashant

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> Hello,

> I have been receiving emails about the positive

> aspects of the Hyperbaric oxygen treatment.

> My only reservation is that if it were so positive,

> why don't people try it and why dont experienced and

> knowledgeable doctors like Dr.Cheney not recomment

> this?

How do you know that Dr. Cheney has NOT recommended it to a patient?

He has to ME.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I am the hyperbaric advocate on this list because it gave me my life

back and I am convinced that some of the PWC on this list could

benefit similarly. The individual who posted below for whom it had

no effect is the only other one who has tried HBOT on this list as

far as I know.

In backchannel communications I found that when it does not work it

is often because either there were too few consecutive sessions, or

because the pressure was inadequate. HBOT centers often run at 1.5

ATA while you need closer to 2.5 ATA to kill serious pathogens like

Lymes.

If you want Science, I suggest " Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy " by

A Neubauer MD available at www.amazon.com. He has been using

hyperbarics to heal patients for 25 years in Florida. He is very

conservative and does not even discuss CFS, but he does discuss Lymes

and other infectious conditions that are closely linked to CFS.

In response to your questions:

1) Why don't people try it?

It is both costly and inconvenient. 20 sessions at a cost of 100-250

per session for 1 hour each is considered a minimum treatment.

Paying this kind of cost out of pocket (not covered by insurance),

making consecutive daily trips in a car, and withstanding the stress

of varied temperature/pressure are not possible for many PWC.

2) Why doesn't Cheney et all recommend it?

You would have to ask the doctors. Cheney did recommend oxygen

breathing at normal pressure and now recommends Weil breathing

exercise. He also notes in his video that 92% of PWC suffer from

oxygen deprevation. Since hyperbarics is by several orders of

magnitude the best method to force O2 into the body (an approved use

is to treat hypoxia and near asphyxiation)it seems to me a no brainer

that it be used for the 92% Cheney refers to.

3) Does any CFS/Lyme specialist recommend this?

Dr. Garth Nicholson uses hyperbarics in combination with antibiotics

to treat mycoplasmas and CFS. However, he is not exclusively a CFS

doctor, but deals generally with Gulf war disease and other ailments

where he believes mycoplasma is a contributing factor.

4) Why don't CFS symptoms reappear?

This goes back to what hyperbarics does. If you have Lymes for

example, it will kill the spirochetes that hide in the body where

antibiotics can't get them. This can be near a heavy metal load

(e.g. mercury) which locally disables the immune system. Or it can

be behind fibrinogen deposits which result from either genetic

hypercoagulation deficit or a pathogen that activates the blood

coagulation mechanism for a stealth defense. But the pathogens that

bring many down, including Lymes, some viruses, cavitation

infections, and hypercoagulation infections are thwarted by oxygen.

Per the book I referenced above, a study at Texas A & M by Dr

Fife showed that 38 of 40 Lyme patients benefited from hyperbarics

and that the benefit continued after the study regardless of whether

the patient was on antibiotics.

So one reason there is a lasting improvement is that pathogens that

have accumulated over years are defeated. Secondly, with pathogens

defeated, hypercoagulation if it exists also dissipates thereby

restoring the O2 delivery mechanism. Thirdly, O2 heals. It is used

by sports teams to accelerate wound healing by several times, and by

stroke victims to heal dysfunctional but still living brain tissue.

In CFS/FM I believe it heals accumulated insult throughout the body

to restore lost immune, circulatory, and hormonal function. (I saw a

recent article where those living at high altitude/low O2 in Peru had

about 1/2 the good hormones such as DHEA compared with the same

genetic group in the valleys.)

This is analagous to illness induced by a missing nutrient. In this

case the missing nutrient is Oxygen, and there is no more important

single nutrient required by the body. Just as scurvy disappears upon

application of vitamin C, a whole serious of misfires self correct

upon application of O2 in an O2 starved body.

This does not mean that hyperbarics should be used alone or that it

fixes everything. If you have a hormonal issue, that needs to be

treated. If you have toxins, you need to detox. But hyperbarics

will help most and provide the basic strength needed to detox and

heal.

5) What would happen if one were to go to a low pressure area?

Hyperbarics is just like diving, except you breath almost pure O2

instead of an 80/20 nitrogen/oxygen mix. If you go from hyperbarics

immediately to very low pressure (e.g. an airplane which pressurizes

to about 7500 feet) it is remotely possible to have nitrogen bubbles

alias the bends. As with diving this is true only after a dive, and

conservative Navy estimates suggest that if you wait 12 hours after a

hyperbaric dive the possibility of a problem is zero.

There is no long term problem with going to low pressure. In fact

just the opposite. Before hyperbarics I felt poorly in low pressure,

but now I can't tell the difference. I believe this relates to the

fact that my O2 transport has largely been restored by eliminating

hypercoagulation and other O2 induced healing.

The bottom line is that Hyperbarics for CFS is experimental. Similar

to recent bee sting posts, there is no stakeholder who can benefit by

making the serious investment it would take to prove it works.

Moreover, in areas where it competes against pharmaceuticals and

other revenue generating activities it is discouraged by the medical

establishment, therefore not covered by insurance even where good

studies exist. Their worst nightmare is that instead of taking a

high cost EPO shot every month, that one month of hyperbarics can

heal you.

Meanwhile, I have been searching for feedback for months. Overall, I

have found that 70-80% who tried hyperbarics report benefit. Others

get no benefit, and I think it will be very important to learn how to

distinguish. Rich on this list suggested that glutathione deficiency

can cause the same type of anerobic metabolism as O2 deficiency, and

mitochodrial disease is another possibility of a non-O2 problem that

acts like an O2 problem.

At the Hyperbarics center I went to, 1 FM and 1 CFS (me) tried it,

and both had a very good result returning to normal activity. The

largest group of anecdotal testers is reported here from England

where they have a large number of hyperbaric chambers established 10

years ago to treat MS:

http://www.drys00384.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/hbot.htm

I am not selling anything, but I offer free use of a hyperbaric

chamber in my garage in Phoenix AZ to anyone who cares to give it a

serious try.

Regards,

> I did the hyperbaric treatment with pure oxygen,

> twenty treatments. I read up on it. It had zero effect on

> my CFIDS symptoms. but... its probably very effective

> on problems like broken bones, burns and wounds that

> wont heal

> -- Hyperbaric o2: need for scientific

explanation

>

> Hello,

> I have been receiving emails about the positive

> aspects of the Hyperbaric oxygen treatment.

> My only reservation is that if it were so positive,

> why don't people try it and why dont experienced and

> knowledgeable doctors like Dr.Cheney not recomment

> this?

> Does any CFIDS/lyme specialist recommend this?

> Can anybody give me a good reason as to why the CFIDS

> symptoms not reappear much after this Hyperbaric

> treatment is stopped? What would happen if one were to

> go to a low pressure area?

> I warn unscruplous marketers to not reply to this

> email with your usual marketing BS. If you want to

> reply, do so with actual sceintifically established

> results.

>

> Thanks,

> Prashant

[Guest guest]

,

I havn't been following your thread , so my question is, what was your

protocol for the use of HBO that put you in remission, and do you still

continue to use it now, and have you changed the protocol, now that you fll

it has given you your life back. You no as maintenance. If you have already

addressed these questions, I appolgize, and I will begin to hunt them

down...from past posts. What subset did you fill you were in?

Many moons ago I read on the web, a story about another individual who

claimed to also get his life back from CFS, with the use of HBO.It was pretty

interesting.

Respectfully

Don

[Guest guest]

Hi Don,

My starting protocol was 1 week with 1 dive daily at 1.5

Atmospheres. I felt better throughout the first week, then worse on

the first 2 weekend days when the HBO center was closed, then better

again Monday when I went back. Consistency counts.

Then a second week 1 hour daily at 2 Atmospheres. Then I continued

to increase dive time and pressure up to 2.8 Atmospheres for 2 hours

to week 4.

From what I have read, the ideal approach is 2 hours per day for 20-

40 days at about 2.5 ATA. I went slower because I was in no

condition to push.

Since increased O2 increases oxidation load, I take antioxidants and

avoid eating before diving (to limit blood glucose and hence

metabolic oxidation).

Since then I dive every other or third day for about 1 hour at 2.8

ATA as preventive maintenance and because I feel good after. I am

now using it also as detox approach. I dive when it is hot causing

heavy sweating and hopefully throwing off toxins.

I have taken a full week off without any return of symptoms. In

other cases I know of they go back every six months or so for a

couple of dives, or have not needed to go back.

If you have the link for the other CFS individual who got their life

back I would appreciate it. I am trying to learn from other

successful cases who is likely to benefit.

My own case is 20 years CFS, Cheney stage 3. Symptoms included:

excessive fatigue, sleep disturbance, slept days only, excessive

sleep, severe intolerance to exercise, muscle weakness, muscle aches,

neck pain, severe intolerance to cold (slept in a 90+ degree room,

cold at 85), drenching night sweats, chronic infections including

constant swollen glands, sore throat, and dermatitis, constipation,

intermittent brain fog.

Objectively I tested positive for hypercoagulation and adrenal

fatigue, and had amalgrams out with residual mercury toxicity. In

addition to hyperbarics I take cortef for the Adrenals which improved

exercise and cold intolerance, and am now pursuing mercury detox

(before hyperbarics my doctor said I was to sick to risk detox) to

hopefully prevent a relapse.

I do not claim 100% remission, but it is close and to me miraculous.

My symptoms today are minor intolerance to cold, some extra sweating,

and nocturnal sleep pattern. I have just started exercising lightly

so I am not sure what my limit will be. These remaining symptoms

continue to improve gradually.

Regards,

> ,

>

> I havn't been following your thread , so my question is, what was

your

> protocol for the use of HBO that put you in remission, and do you

still

> continue to use it now, and have you changed the protocol, now that

you fll

> it has given you your life back. You no as maintenance. If you have

already

> addressed these questions, I appolgize, and I will begin to hunt

them

> down...from past posts. What subset did you fill you were in?

> Many moons ago I read on the web, a story about another individual

who

> claimed to also get his life back from CFS, with the use of HBO.It

was pretty

> interesting.

>

> Respectfully

> Don

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

Its always good to hear that someone is making progress with our disease,

continued best of luck to you.

Its going to be interesting to follow your progress. As I beleive CFS is

herpes driven. I want to see if you do reach full remission , if you stay

there, or if you relapse. With that said, it may indicate, if it can kill the

virus or not . If you do relapse, once you get it undercontrol once again

with HBO, then less of it, just for maintainence. For your sake, and everyone

elses, I hope you dont relapse. If anything can kill herpes , it just may be

the HBO...

I know there was some studies done with not much success. Do you know of

these, and can you elaborate on them. Were they done properly? Were they

carried out according to your protocol, or was it different...

Wishing you the best,

Don

[Guest guest]

Hi Don,

Thanks for your kind wishes. After 20 years I am an optimistic

realist. If HBO buys me 6 months, or a year, or whatever I am

thankful because it is such a relief. Meanwhile, as long as I

believe it is at least in the realm of GH, glutathione, B-12, and the

other accepted protocols I will keep posting.

Interestingly, if you feel CFS is herpes driven, herpes is killed off

by exposure to oxygen.

I know of no studies on CFS and hyperbarics. There are none at

Medline. I have seen studies where it is effective relieving the

fatigue of AIDS patients, effective at helping Lymes, and helpful for

a variety of infectious conditions.

http://www.immunesupport.com/healthwatch/sum95/95sum015.cfm

The above link reports on Doctors Fife and Freeman at Texas A & M who

tried HBO with 40 CFS patients, but it is not a study. To quote

Fife " We haven't had a 100% cure but most CFIDS patients have had

improvement " . They plan to do a formal study. Their reported

protocol of 2 weeks is too short based on my experience.

The article also says Dr. Jay Goldstein sent " several " patients with

a poor result, but that he sent only his most intractable patients so

he is not sure about HBO. Protocol was not reported.

This is another link I post, showing a non study 70-80% positive

outcome of 300-400 PWC in England.

http://www.drys00384.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/hbot.htm

This link shows return to activity, but not a cure, for one CFS

patient with mycoplasmas after 130 sessions:

http://www.spinalrehab.com.au/disorders/ChronicIllness.htm

This is from the site of Dr. Garth Nicholson:

http://www.immed.org/reports/fatigue_illness_research/ImmuneSuppcom011

14a.htm

" Nicolson has found oxygen therapy to be effective for many but not

all CFS patients, especially for patients with acute episodes or in

patients with diagnosed chronic infections. He also warns that it

does take a long time to work and must be used in conjunction with

other treatments. "

So to draw from this admittedly weak data, I think it is fair to say

that a majority of PWC can benefit from HBOT, that it is not a cure,

and that you need to give it sufficient time to get out all the

potential benefit.

If you know where I can find some real studies I would be very

interested.

Regards,

> Hello ,

>

> Its always good to hear that someone is making progress with our

disease,

> continued best of luck to you.

> Its going to be interesting to follow your progress. As I beleive

CFS is

> herpes driven. I want to see if you do reach full remission , if

you stay

> there, or if you relapse. With that said, it may indicate, if it

can kill the

> virus or not . If you do relapse, once you get it undercontrol once

again

> with HBO, then less of it, just for maintainence. For your sake,

and everyone

> elses, I hope you dont relapse. If anything can kill herpes , it

just may be

> the HBO...

> I know there was some studies done with not much success. Do you

know of

> these, and can you elaborate on them. Were they done properly? Were

they

> carried out according to your protocol, or was it different...

>

> Wishing you the best,

> Don

[Guest guest]

Dear Sherimmm,

On what basis did Dr Cheney recommend HBOT to you?

I have tried this therapy as it is relatively cheap

and accessible here in the UK from MS Therapy Centres.

I did 20 dives to 24ft and a couple to 32ft for 1hr

each time. Overall it didn't have a lasting impact

but I did experience a small increase in energy

sometimes after a dive and a feeling of being

refreshed. You are ment to continue maintenance

treatments once per week or even twice weekly. I did

this for a few weeks but then it became inconvenient.

I decided to move on to trying other things but I may

give it another go at some point.

http://www.ms-selfhelp.org/oxygen.html

Bobby

...................

> Hello,

> I have been receiving emails about the positive

> aspects of the Hyperbaric oxygen treatment.

> My only reservation is that if it were so positive,

> why don't people try it and why dont experienced and

> knowledgeable doctors like Dr.Cheney not recomment

> this?

How do you know that Dr. Cheney has NOT recommended it

to a patient?

He has to ME.

__________________________________________________