Re: I'm back, and I think I understandmagnesium in CFS better.

[Guest guest]

Hi Rich,

I recently met with Cheney and we had a conversation about mag, and btw, I

do have diabetes incipitus.

He refered to a paper by Greta Moorkins on Mag and CFS. Have you read it?

L

>Hi, everyone.

>

>As you can see from the above posts, I'm back in a more active status

>on the list. I've missed participating quite a lot. I've spent the

>past few months working on a chapter on nutrition for a new book on

>CFS that will hopefully come out this winter. I've signed away the

>copyright, so I can't give you the manuscript verbatim, but I will be

>sharing some of the high points of what I've learned. I reviewed over

>200 references. It turned out to be a much bigger literature than I

>realized. I think I have a new insight on what's going on with

>magnesium. As you know, both PWCs and PWFs have found benefit from

>fairly high magnesium intake, orally and by injection. The

>measurements of magnesium status in CFS, however, have been equivocal.

>Some find low Mg, and some don't. It's not easy to accurately

>evaluate Mg status with a simple test. People have claimed that the Mg

>loading test (aka Mg challenge, or Mg tolerance test) is the way to

>go, but it relies on the kidneys treating Mg properly. The idea

>is that you inject a big dose of magnesium, and then collect urine

>for a day, and see how much of it is dumped. If a lot is

>retained, the conclusion is that the person was low in magnesium,

>and vice versa. I've always been suspicious of this test in CFS. Now

>I think I understand what's going on. It's been found (2 papers) that

>PWCs are low in arginine vasopressin (antidiuretic hormone). This

>produces a state of partial diabetes insipidus. It's responsible for

>the constant thirst, high water intake, and high daily urine volume.

>I think it also contributes to the NMH and POTS problems in CFS.

>

>O.K., here's the new insight: It's been found in rats that low

>arginine vasopressin, beside causing a lot of water loss in urine,

>also causes major losses of magnesium in urine (calcium too, by the

>way). Furthermore, in children with bedwetting problems, it's been

>found that the magnesium loss is high, and both the bedwetting and the

>Mg loss were corrected with a synthetic form of arginine vasopressin

>(a Russian paper).

>

>So, I think this means that the magnesium loading test is not valid in

>PWCs, that they are low in Mg because they are dumping too much of it

>into the urine, and that this results from low arginine vasopressin.

>

>Now, how do you fix that? Sorry, I don't know that yet. I think the

>low arginine vasopressin is a result of hypothalamus problems, and I

>don't think they are fully understood yet. I think Dr. Cheney has

>suggested that they are due to toxins that cross the barrier into the

>hypothalamus from the blood. There are also other possibilities.

>This is an area of active research, and hopefully progress will be

>made, but at least I think it's possible to make sense out of all the

>funny results that have appeared on Mg in CFS.

>

>Rich

>

>

>

>This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

>other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

>discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Yes, thank you. I reviewed the Moorkens paper. I want to point out

that they used a magnesium loading test, and I don't trust that test

in CFS, because the shortage of antidiuretic hormone in CFS causes the

kidneys to dump too much magnesium. The test relies on the kidneys

controlling magnesium properly, and they don't in CFS, so the test

gives the wrong answers. That may be why Moorkens et al. concluded

that magnesium deficiency is not associated with CFS. The benefits

that so many get from taking magnesium just jump right out at you and

make you wonder why the tests don't show magnesium deficiency. I

think that's why. I would like to see a good controlled test of the

sublingual epithelial cell x-ray fluorescence magnesium analysis in

CFS.

I'm not surprised that you have diabetes insipidus if you have CFS. I

think quite a few do, whether the doctors call it that or not. If you

have high daily urine volume, are constantly thirsty and are

constantly drinking water, but you don't have the other kind of

diabetes (i.e. mellitus), then the odds are very great that you have

diabetes insipidus.

Rich

> Hi Rich,

>

> I recently met with Cheney and we had a conversation about mag, and

btw, I

> do have diabetes incipitus.

> He refered to a paper by Greta Moorkins on Mag and CFS. Have you

read it?

> L

>

>

>

> >Hi, everyone.

> >

> >As you can see from the above posts, I'm back in a more active

status

> >on the list. I've missed participating quite a lot. I've spent the

> >past few months working on a chapter on nutrition for a new book on

> >CFS that will hopefully come out this winter. I've signed away the

> >copyright, so I can't give you the manuscript verbatim, but I will

be

> >sharing some of the high points of what I've learned. I reviewed

over

> >200 references. It turned out to be a much bigger literature than

I

> >realized. I think I have a new insight on what's going on with

> >magnesium. As you know, both PWCs and PWFs have found benefit from

> >fairly high magnesium intake, orally and by injection. The

> >measurements of magnesium status in CFS, however, have been

equivocal.

> >Some find low Mg, and some don't. It's not easy to accurately

> >evaluate Mg status with a simple test. People have claimed that the

Mg

> >loading test (aka Mg challenge, or Mg tolerance test) is the way to

> >go, but it relies on the kidneys treating Mg properly. The idea

> >is that you inject a big dose of magnesium, and then collect urine

> >for a day, and see how much of it is dumped. If a lot is

> >retained, the conclusion is that the person was low in magnesium,

> >and vice versa. I've always been suspicious of this test in CFS.

Now

> >I think I understand what's going on. It's been found (2 papers)

that

> >PWCs are low in arginine vasopressin (antidiuretic hormone). This

> >produces a state of partial diabetes insipidus. It's responsible

for

> >the constant thirst, high water intake, and high daily urine

volume.

> >I think it also contributes to the NMH and POTS problems in CFS.

> >

> >O.K., here's the new insight: It's been found in rats that low

> >arginine vasopressin, beside causing a lot of water loss in urine,

> >also causes major losses of magnesium in urine (calcium too, by the

> >way). Furthermore, in children with bedwetting problems, it's been

> >found that the magnesium loss is high, and both the bedwetting and

the

> >Mg loss were corrected with a synthetic form of arginine

vasopressin

> >(a Russian paper).

> >

> >So, I think this means that the magnesium loading test is not valid

in

> >PWCs, that they are low in Mg because they are dumping too much of

it

> >into the urine, and that this results from low arginine

vasopressin.

> >

> >Now, how do you fix that? Sorry, I don't know that yet. I think

the

> >low arginine vasopressin is a result of hypothalamus problems, and

I

> >don't think they are fully understood yet. I think Dr. Cheney has

> >suggested that they are due to toxins that cross the barrier into

the

> >hypothalamus from the blood. There are also other possibilities.

> >This is an area of active research, and hopefully progress will be

> >made, but at least I think it's possible to make sense out of all

the

> >funny results that have appeared on Mg in CFS.

> >

> >Rich

> >

> >

> >

> >This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each

> >other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment

> >discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> >

> >