Cheney on Vitamin C

[Guest guest]

There's been a lot of discussion about Vitamin C. I crashed when a local doctor

put me on the mega doses of it in 1998. Cheney later explained why that

happened. He has now gotten to the point that at my October appointment he

recommended that I not take any vitamin C other than what was in my multi. He

said if you're taking a good multi, that's all you really need.

Below is my post from more than a year ago. Some kind soul told where to find it

in the archives, but I checked and found it hard to read - extended far beyond

the normal page of the monitor. At least on my computer. So here it is again.

Take care. Carol

**********************************************************************

At my October (1999) appointment with Dr. Cheney I asked him about taking

vitamin C with the Immunocal/IMUPlus. It's as close to an exact translation as I

could make out from my fuzzy tape recorder! Anything in parentheses is my own

addition/comment.

BEGIN CHENEY QUOTE

Vitamin C, especially high doses, we're talking abut giving grams not milligrams

- 5, 10, 30, 50 grams - huge doses. Vitamin C becomes oxidized and then

converts back to its (effective) reduced state by in turn oxidizing glutathione.

So if you give a ton of it - and of course any antioxidant ultimately gets

oxidized if it's working. So a ton of it that's oxidized will bring itself back

up to its reduced state by simultaneously oxidizing glutathione. So you end up

with a whole bunch of oxidized glutathione trying to maintain this ton of

reduced Vitamin C.

So you in effect are at risk for what's called coupling action. Which is that

all the antioxidants, with a few exceptions, couple to each other. By that I

mean that when they get oxidized they will look for something to reduce them

(back to their effective state), but when they reduce themselves they oxidize

whatever they couple to, (rendering it ineffective).

So in effect if your lowest common denominator is glutathione, which of course

it is, you're at risk for wiping it out by giving a very high dose of any

antioxidant that couples.

Which ones don't couple? Lipoic Acid. It doesn't couple. Not only that, but

it will recycle glutathione back to its reduced state - without ever coupling

to it. Lipoic Acid is thought to recycle up to 30% of the body's glutathione.

So I think the very best antioxidant to take, especially if you're taking

Immunocal or IMUPlus, is Lipoic Acid.

And I think high dose vitamin C is not a great idea. Although, if you can get

your vitamin C to couple to something else, like a bioflavonoid, like vitamin C

with rosehips - rosehips is a bioflavonoid - you give a bunch of bioflavonoids

like ginko biloba, pycnogenol, proanthocyanidins - there's a whole bunch of

bioflavonids - the vitamin C will couple to that and leave the glutathione

alone.

In a CFIDS patient I wouldn't give more than 2 grams of vitamin C a day without

some concern. Now that is not to say if some patient told me 'I do really well

at 10 grams a day', well by all means take 10 grams a day. But in general I

don't think we should be giving high doses of vitamin C to CFIDS patients who

are glutathione impaired for fear we might worsen the glutathione impairment.

One day I'd like to prove that, but my guess is that it's going to probably be a

very individualized. There'll be people who can handle higher doses of vitamin

C, and we already know there are people who have trouble with it.

No one understood this until the idea of coupling came along.

I would emphasize a little bit of C, bioflavonoids, and of course lipoic acid.

END OF CHENEY QUOTE

[Guest guest]

I may have to disagree with the esteemed Dr. Cheney on his Vit C

position. I think it depends on the individual, which may be Cheney's

position. If I take 3 grams or so of Vit C per day, I don't catch

colds or get sore throats that other *healthy* people in my office

get. However, i do have chronically low WBC count.

Also, my wife, who does not have CFS, has been taking 4 grams of

Vit C per day for 12 years and has only missed 2 days of work in

12 years. But, she doesn't have to worry about it interfering with

whey/glutathione.

Mike

> There's been a lot of discussion about Vitamin C. I crashed when a

local doctor put me on the mega doses of it in 1998. Cheney later

explained why that happened. He has now gotten to the point that at

my October appointment he recommended that I not take any vitamin C

other than what was in my multi. He said if you're taking a good

multi, that's all you really need.

>

> Below is my post from more than a year ago. Some kind soul told

where to find it in the archives, but I checked and found it hard to

read - extended far beyond the normal page of the monitor. At least

on my computer. So here it is again.

>

> Take care. Carol

>

**********************************************************************

>

>

> At my October (1999) appointment with Dr. Cheney I asked him about

taking vitamin C with the Immunocal/IMUPlus. It's as close to an

exact translation as I could make out from my fuzzy tape recorder!

Anything in parentheses is my own addition/comment.

>

> BEGIN CHENEY QUOTE

> Vitamin C, especially high doses, we're talking abut giving grams

not milligrams - 5, 10, 30, 50 grams - huge doses. Vitamin C

becomes oxidized and then converts back to its (effective) reduced

state by in turn oxidizing glutathione. So if you give a ton of it -

and of course any antioxidant ultimately gets oxidized if it's

working. So a ton of it that's oxidized will bring itself back up to

its reduced state by simultaneously oxidizing glutathione. So you

end up with a whole bunch of oxidized glutathione trying to maintain

this ton of reduced Vitamin C.

>

> So you in effect are at risk for what's called coupling action.

Which is that all the antioxidants, with a few exceptions, couple to

each other. By that I mean that when they get oxidized they will

look for something to reduce them (back to their effective state),

but when they reduce themselves they oxidize whatever they couple to,

(rendering it ineffective).

>

> So in effect if your lowest common denominator is glutathione,

which of course it is, you're at risk for wiping it out by giving a

very high dose of any antioxidant that couples.

>

> Which ones don't couple? Lipoic Acid. It doesn't couple. Not

only that, but it will recycle glutathione back to its reduced

state - without ever coupling to it. Lipoic Acid is thought to

recycle up to 30% of the body's glutathione. So I think the very

best antioxidant to take, especially if you're taking Immunocal or

IMUPlus, is Lipoic Acid.

>

> And I think high dose vitamin C is not a great idea. Although, if

you can get your vitamin C to couple to something else, like a

bioflavonoid, like vitamin C with rosehips - rosehips is a

bioflavonoid - you give a bunch of bioflavonoids like ginko biloba,

pycnogenol, proanthocyanidins - there's a whole bunch of

bioflavonids - the vitamin C will couple to that and leave the

glutathione alone.

>

> In a CFIDS patient I wouldn't give more than 2 grams of vitamin C a

day without some concern. Now that is not to say if some patient

told me 'I do really well at 10 grams a day', well by all means take

10 grams a day. But in general I don't think we should be giving

high doses of vitamin C to CFIDS patients who are glutathione

impaired for fear we might worsen the glutathione impairment.

>

> One day I'd like to prove that, but my guess is that it's going to

probably be a very individualized. There'll be people who can handle

higher doses of vitamin C, and we already know there are people who

have trouble with it.

>

> No one understood this until the idea of coupling came along.

>

> I would emphasize a little bit of C, bioflavonoids, and of course

lipoic acid.

> END OF CHENEY QUOTE

>

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