Guest guest Posted November 6, 2000 Report Share Posted November 6, 2000 Hi Carol, I sure would like to know what Dr. Cheney feels about the use Hyperbaric Oxygen to treat the 2,3-DPG problem in CFS and the A02-bottled oxygen you add to water and drink, details at: www.activatedoxygen.com Al Re: 2,3 DPG & breathing > Carol, you asked me (also Carol) " What level of 2,3 DPG is optimum in blood > labs? " > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2000 Report Share Posted November 11, 2000 Hi There Carol, Thanks very much for the info on Cheney's breathing protocol sans rebreather mask....printed in total for Monday's Dr. Appt. Group question: What level of 2,3 DPG is optimum in blood labs....personal testing last year just indicated presence in blood with no numerical value or range assigned--- This thread has educated beyond the literature by simplifying the explanation of 2,3 DPG's job--release of oxygen----well only took me a year to figure it out ??????? Knew it was important as I convinced doctor to order last year ;-) Oxygen deficiency on the brain ;-)))) Last thought for clarification: RE: Cheney--the focus is no longer on trying to change blood alkoholis (sic) but to increase release of oxygen via increased 2,3 DPG production. This increase derived as a direct result of oxygen deprivation achieved through deliberated breath holding??? Leading to another group question--How does the postulate regarding " unbendable " red blood cells that can't transport oxygen to all parts of the body factor in...... TIA, Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2000 Report Share Posted November 11, 2000 Carol, you asked me (also Carol) " What level of 2,3 DPG is optimum in blood labs? " I have no idea, but since 2,3 DPG varies with altitude, and may vary in response to other factors, it may be very difficult to tell what it " should " be. If there is a normal range, I wouldn't be surprised if was huge. You also wrote " RE: Cheney--the focus is no longer on trying to change blood alkoholis (sic) but to increase release of oxygen via increased 2,3 DPG production. This increase derived as a direct result of oxygen deprivation achieved through deliberated breath holding??? Actually, I think Cheney is focused on both. I got the impression that this breathing method does everything the rebreather did, including address the intracellular acidosis / extracellular alkalosis problem, with the addition of raising 2,3 DPG and thus oxygen transport (without the danger of over-correcting). But I'm not positive. I've asked someone who's seeing Cheney in early December to verify that my impression is correct. I'll let y'all know if I was wrong about it addressing blood alkalosis. But Cheney was really excited about this, and clearly felt it replaced the rebreather and was better than the rebreather. Your second statement about the increase of oxygen being a direct result of oxygen deprivation through deliberated breath holding is right on the money, at least as I understand it. Lastly, you asked " How does the postulate regarding " unbendable " red blood cells that can't transport oxygen to all parts of the body factor in? " I assume you are referring to the work of Les Simpson from NZ regarding rigid and misshapen RBCs that impede blood flow through the capillaries. (He spoke to our group, and a brief summary of his presentation and treatment protocol is in our Jan '99 newsletter at www.members.nbci.com/dfwnews/ ) I'm sure this is part of our problem, but I don't know how it interacts with or relates to the info from Cheney. Take care. Carol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2000 Report Share Posted November 11, 2000 >... 2,3 DPG varies with altitude, and may vary in > response to other factors, it may be very difficult to tell what it " should " > be. If there is a normal range, I wouldn't be surprised if was huge. > > You also wrote " RE: Cheney--the focus is no longer on trying to change blood > alkoholis (sic) but to increase release of oxygen via increased 2,3 DPG > production. This increase derived as a direct result of oxygen deprivation > achieved through deliberated breath holding???... > Take care. Carol Carol: I'm coming in on the middle of this. Does deliberated breath holding refer to Hale/Butenyko (sp?) method? I was doing that, but I stopped. What's 2,3 DPG? Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2000 Report Share Posted November 11, 2000 on 11/11/00 12:54 PM, ftrpsyd@... at ftrpsyd@... wrote: > Last thought for clarification: RE: Cheney--the focus is no longer on > trying to change blood alkoholis (sic) but to increase release of oxygen > via increased 2,3 DPG production. This increase derived as a direct > result of oxygen deprivation achieved through deliberated breath > holding??? Note that correcting blood alkalosis does increase 2,3 DPG production -- just not permanently. Cheney's equation was: blood alkalosis -> decrease 2,3 DPG -> inhibition of O2 release from Hb -> tissue hypoxia -> tissue acidosis ( & pain) -> blood alkalosis.... [ad infinitum] The neat thing about the breathing technique, I gather, is that it can have a more longterm effect. > > Leading to another group question--How does the postulate regarding > " unbendable " red blood cells that can't transport oxygen to all parts of > the body factor in...... Here's a wild guess: The red cells contain hemoglobin (Hb). Hb is where oxygen 'binds' and then takes a ride around the vascular system, ideally 'dissociating' from the Hb into the oxygen hungry tissues. However, when the blood is too alkaline and thus levels of 2,3 DPG are reduced -- or if 2,3 DPG is reduced for whatever reason -- oxygen remains bound to Hb and continues to ride around the bloodstream without being delivered to the hungry tissues. MAYBE the red cells start to become rigid and/or abnormally shaped simply because the oxygen is remaining bound to the Hb too long. Maybe the Hb becomes 'bloated' with oxygen and stays that way for too long -- which then has some sort of negative effect on the structural characteristics of the red blood cell. (?) Maybe that's why many of us have elevated Mean corpuscular volume (MCV) and MCHC.... Hud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2000 Report Share Posted November 11, 2000 Hud, do you think an elevated MCH would result from blood alkalosis or acidosis? I've been looking up possible causes for an elevated MCH but have only references to anemia? Re: re: 2,3 DPG & breathing > on 11/11/00 12:54 PM, ftrpsyd@... at ftrpsyd@... wrote: > > > Last thought for clarification: RE: Cheney--the focus is no longer on > > trying to change blood alkoholis (sic) but to increase release of oxygen > > via increased 2,3 DPG production. This increase derived as a direct > > result of oxygen deprivation achieved through deliberated breath > > holding??? > > Note that correcting blood alkalosis does increase 2,3 DPG production -- > just not permanently. Cheney's equation was: > > blood alkalosis -> decrease 2,3 DPG -> inhibition of O2 release from Hb -> > tissue hypoxia -> tissue acidosis ( & pain) -> blood alkalosis.... [ad > infinitum] > > The neat thing about the breathing technique, I gather, is that it can have > a more longterm effect. > > > > Leading to another group question--How does the postulate regarding > > " unbendable " red blood cells that can't transport oxygen to all parts of > > the body factor in...... > > Here's a wild guess: > > The red cells contain hemoglobin (Hb). Hb is where oxygen 'binds' and then > takes a ride around the vascular system, ideally 'dissociating' from the Hb > into the oxygen hungry tissues. However, when the blood is too alkaline and > thus levels of 2,3 DPG are reduced -- or if 2,3 DPG is reduced for whatever > reason -- oxygen remains bound to Hb and continues to ride around the > bloodstream without being delivered to the hungry tissues. > > MAYBE the red cells start to become rigid and/or abnormally shaped simply > because the oxygen is remaining bound to the Hb too long. Maybe the Hb > becomes 'bloated' with oxygen and stays that way for too long -- which then > has some sort of negative effect on the structural characteristics of the > red blood cell. (?) Maybe that's why many of us have elevated Mean > corpuscular volume (MCV) and MCHC.... > > Hud > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2000 Report Share Posted November 12, 2000 on 11/12/00 2:35 AM, DuRant at faerytails@... wrote: > do you think an elevated MCH would result from blood alkalosis or acidosis? > I've been looking up possible causes for an elevated MCH but have only > references to anemia? , I really don't know. As I said, a wild guess might have it that elevated MCH could be related to blood alkalosis, if the alkalosis is preventing the Hb's oxygen from being released into tissues. Maybe the body has some sort of feedback mechanism whereby the body detects lack of oxygen delivery into tissues and responds by increasing MCH, in an attempt to increase oxygen delivery. That is, maybe the body 'thinks' the problem of poor oxygen delivery is caused by not enough Hb. So it increases the amount of Hb in each red cell. (?) Hud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2000 Report Share Posted November 21, 2000 That's interesting as my MCV and MCH are consistently elevated. Phil > > Here's a wild guess: > > The red cells contain hemoglobin (Hb). Hb is where oxygen 'binds' and then > takes a ride around the vascular system, ideally 'dissociating' from the Hb > into the oxygen hungry tissues. However, when the blood is too alkaline and > thus levels of 2,3 DPG are reduced -- or if 2,3 DPG is reduced for whatever > reason -- oxygen remains bound to Hb and continues to ride around the > bloodstream without being delivered to the hungry tissues. > > MAYBE the red cells start to become rigid and/or abnormally shaped simply > because the oxygen is remaining bound to the Hb too long. Maybe the Hb > becomes 'bloated' with oxygen and stays that way for too long -- which then > has some sort of negative effect on the structural characteristics of the > red blood cell. (?) Maybe that's why many of us have elevated Mean > corpuscular volume (MCV) and MCHC.... > > Hud > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment discussed here, please consult your doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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