Re: B-12: make your own indiv doses

[Guest guest]

Sounds like a good idea. If you put the caps back on the needles you'd

probably eliminate the added risk of bacterial infection.

B-12: make your own indiv doses

> From a comment made to Judith by the pharmacist at McGuff, it occurred to

me that those of us who are using 30 ml or 50 ml bottles of B12 can reduce

the risk of bacteria or a microorganism growing in it over time by taking 30

(or 50) syringes right out of their bags, filling all of them on the day we

get our bottle, putting both caps back on, and refrigerating them.

>

> In other words, we make our own individual doses on the first day we get

our B-12. Any thoughts? With brain fog it's helpful to run ideas past others

to catch obvious glitches! :-)

>

> Carol

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Transferring B-12 into a syringe and then storing them in the fridge

for 30 to 50 days is really asking for trouble. First, the B-12 is

sterile in the original container and is less likely to get

contaminated. Second, you have lost your sterile condition with the

syringe the moment you remove it from its container. Your fridge is

not a sterile setting; it just keeps the B-12 from spoiling because

it has no preservatives in it. Your fridge is one of the worst places

in your home for mold. The cap will protect it from ketchup but

nothing the size of mold or other bacteria. I know the caps seem like

a tight fit, but it is no longer sterile. You " will " end up with some

contaminated needles and a chance to contaminate the B-12 since there

is no seal. You would also have to stand the syringes on end to keep

the B-12 from leaking back out of the needle. Even if you had a

sterile container to store them in, it wouldn't be sterile once you

opened it. This is really not something you want to try.

Vale

" R. Bullock " <bullocks@g...> wrote:

> Sounds like a good idea. If you put the caps back on the needles

you'd

> probably eliminate the added risk of bacterial infection.

> B-12: make your own indiv doses

>

>

> > From a comment made to Judith by the pharmacist at McGuff, it

occurred to

> me that those of us who are using 30 ml or 50 ml bottles of B12 can

reduce

> the risk of bacteria or a microorganism growing in it over time by

taking 30

> (or 50) syringes right out of their bags, filling all of them on

the day we

> get our bottle, putting both caps back on, and refrigerating them.

> >

> > In other words, we make our own individual doses on the first day

we get

> our B-12. Any thoughts? With brain fog it's helpful to run ideas

past others

> to catch obvious glitches! :-)

> >

> > Carol

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Carol and All,

I wouldn't be happy about doing this personally, I am

sure that a pharmacist would recommend against it.

The B 12 in the vial is contained in a sterile

environment protected by the rubber stopper. The

unused syringes are also sterile as contained in their

packages, however, once open only remain sterile for a

short time period. It is likely that the needles of

the syringes could become contaminated even with the

cap on as this does not provide an air tight seal.

It has been suggested to me by a correspondent on this

list to keep vials in a dark coloured box with a good

seal on a separate shelf in the refridgerator. If one

does this and then as an additional precaution wiped

the surface of the stopper then the risk of

contamination is minimised.

Does anyone know of a source for obtaining empty

individual 10ml vials. These could then be filled

from the " mother " vial which may be 50ml or possibly

larger with one of those 5ml big mother syringes.

Possibly larger if it is confirmed that it is OK to

freeze B12. I asked and his initial

thoughts were that it would be but he wanted to

confirm this with his American collegues. I have not

yet heard back from him in this regard so please ask

him yourselves also and let us know. Wouldn't it be

great to have a 6 or 12 month supply just chilling in

the freezer!

Regards,

Carol wrote:

>From a comment made to Judith by the pharmacist at

McGuff, it occurred to me that those of us who are

using 30 ml or 50 ml bottles of B12 can reduce the

risk of bacteria or a microorganism growing in it over

time by taking 30 (or 50) syringes right out of their

bags, filling all of them on the day we get our

bottle, putting both caps back on, and

refrigerating them.

In other words, we make our own individual doses on

the first day we

get our B-12. Any thoughts? With brain fog it's

helpful to run ideas past

others to catch obvious glitches! :-)

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

This is exactly what my pharmacist came up with as a way of avoiding

contamination. Works very well.

Anne

> From a comment made to Judith by the pharmacist at McGuff, it

occurred to me that those of us who are using 30 ml or 50 ml bottles

of B12 can reduce the risk of bacteria or a microorganism growing in

it over time by taking 30 (or 50) syringes right out of their bags,

filling all of them on the day we get our bottle, putting both caps

back on, and refrigerating them.

>

> In other words, we make our own individual doses on the first day

we get our B-12. Any thoughts? With brain fog it's helpful to run

ideas past others to catch obvious glitches! :-)

>

> Carol

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

on 11/17/00 12:39 AM, Sieverling at lsieverl@... wrote:

> From a comment made to Judith by the pharmacist at McGuff, it occurred to me

> that those of us who are using 30 ml or 50 ml bottles of B12 can reduce the

> risk of bacteria or a microorganism growing in it over time by taking 30 (or

> 50) syringes right out of their bags, filling all of them on the day we get

> our bottle, putting both caps back on, and refrigerating them.

>

> In other words, we make our own individual doses on the first day we get our

> B-12. Any thoughts? With brain fog it's helpful to run ideas past others to

> catch obvious glitches! :-)

I read somewhere on a website dedicated to teaching diabetics about self

injection with insulin, that you can keep a prefilled syringe in the fridge

for a few days only. I have no idea why, though, and maybe that only

applies to insulin.

Personally, as I've said before, I've been using 50 ml bottles w/o

preservatives for a year or so and have had no problems. I have no

intention to start using smaller vials, although I understand that some of

you have certain health complications which put you in a different

situation.

Hud

[Guest guest]

I hate to say it but I am virtually certain this is true (below) what

Vale says. I know my former cfs doc always said that before food goes

bad in the traditional sense it isn't good for those of us with cfs/me,

as after a day or two the molds floating in the air of the fridge settle

on the food, even covered.

I've been wrapping my l0 ml vial in reversed alum foil after wiping the

stopper with alchol and leaving it on the stopper! And sticking it in a

place in the fridge where it gets least light.

This, until I get the final word on all this.

And again even though you haven't had trouble that's obvious from storing

30 or 50 ml vials unpreserved in the fridge and going into them daily for

, say , a month or even half a month doesn't mean you haven't experienced

some level of microbial insult. And we do know that one of the hypotheses

about our illness and other nasty illnesses is that bugs can sit around

in our bodies a long time before becoming blatantly manifest or doing

obvious damage, and worse, the damage can not be always connected to the

bug if it hides/evades the common modes of detection, while still messing

with our immune system and thus our health.

Maybe I'm going overboard with carefulness. I wish this problem will

soon be settled by experts. I know Blair at McGuff worries about these

very issues and he knows precious little about our disease but worries

based on standards of asepsis his training and hospital practice high

standards (not always respected but respected by him) state.

I said I'd not write more until I write the comprehensive post but I

accidentally took 3 caps of ginger whenI though I was taking 3 of

enchinacea (same brand) and ginger in that dose is highly stimulating to

me, and thereby interfering with the fine sleep the b-l2 has been

bringing me, and why I want badly to use it yet surely as many cannot

afford those small vials and yet worry about introducing silent

infections by re-inserting 30 or l5 times a month. (I'm edging up to 2

cc per day: one in a.m. and l/2 cc in p.m. and finding it superior than

just the a.m. dose!!!!!!!!

Why do some of us profit so from b-l2??????? And why can't we live in

Europe where apparently it is manufactured and not needed to be bought

via compounding pharmacies.

And where do babies come from? And who will be the next president? And

when will we know? And what will it mean when we do?

Judith Wisdom

On Fri, 17 Nov 2000 08:36:43 -0000 valer@... writes:

> Transferring B-12 into a syringe and then storing them in the fridge

> for 30 to 50 days is really asking for trouble. First, the B-12 is

> sterile in the original container and is less likely to get

> contaminated. Second, you have lost your sterile condition with the

> syringe the moment you remove it from its container. Your fridge is

> not a sterile setting; it just keeps the B-12 from spoiling because

> it has no preservatives in it. Your fridge is one of the worst

> places

> in your home for mold. The cap will protect it from ketchup but

> nothing the size of mold or other bacteria. I know the caps seem

> like

> a tight fit, but it is no longer sterile. You " will " end up with

> some

> contaminated needles and a chance to contaminate the B-12 since

> there

> is no seal. You would also have to stand the syringes on end to keep

>

> the B-12 from leaking back out of the needle. Even if you had a

> sterile container to store them in, it wouldn't be sterile once you

> opened it. This is really not something you want to try.

> Vale

>

> " R. Bullock " <bullocks@g...> wrote:

> > Sounds like a good idea. If you put the caps back on the needles

> you'd

> > probably eliminate the added risk of bacterial infection.

> > B-12: make your own indiv doses

> >

> >

> > > From a comment made to Judith by the pharmacist at McGuff, it

> occurred to

>

> > me that those of us who are using 30 ml or 50 ml bottles of B12

> can

> reduce

> > the risk of bacteria or a microorganism growing in it over time by

>

> taking 30

> > (or 50) syringes right out of their bags, filling all of them on

> the day we

> > get our bottle, putting both caps back on, and refrigerating them.

> > >

> > > In other words, we make our own individual doses on the first

> day

> we get

> > our B-12. Any thoughts? With brain fog it's helpful to run ideas

> past others

> > to catch obvious glitches! :-)

> > >

> > > Carol

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

on 11/19/00 12:54 AM, Judith F Wisdom at judithwisdom@... wrote:

> And again even though you haven't had trouble that's obvious from storing

> 30 or 50 ml vials unpreserved in the fridge and going into them daily for

> , say , a month or even half a month doesn't mean you haven't experienced

> some level of microbial insult. And we do know that one of the hypotheses

> about our illness and other nasty illnesses is that bugs can sit around

> in our bodies a long time before becoming blatantly manifest or doing

> obvious damage, and worse, the damage can not be always connected to the

> bug if it hides/evades the common modes of detection, while still messing

> with our immune system and thus our health.

I'll wager that your toothbrush is the source of greater risk, in terms of

developing an active infection from some pathogen or other, than a

subcutaneous injection of preservative-free b12 on the 50th dose from a 50

ml bottle! -- even taking into account that the subq injection is being

delivered right into your tissue.

We all have our priorities in life and you're certainly free to concern

yourself with preventing sepsis, but it seems to me that there is no way to

truly avoid becoming infected with all the zillions of microorganisms that

are continuously invading our bodies. Now I " m not here promoting

recklessness or imprudence because I do favour avoidance of unnecessary

exposure to infection sources. I sometimes have second thoughts about going

to the doctor's office, or to visit people in the hospital, or about

travelling by airplane... However, I usually decide to have faith in my

immune system and take certain risks.

Hud

[Guest guest]

I agree with your " philosophy. " The issue is how we decide on what

risks. I often worry more about ingested or injected risks than others.

But everyone has to decide for themselves, unless a physician is the

gatekeeper, in which case he/she might be in control of the decision.

Judith Wisdom

P.S. I've sent the final post to Bill Blair at McGuff for him to fact

check. He's usually very prompt and as soon as I receive it back, and if

any corrections needed mae them, you'll have it on list with all the info

you'll need to make your decision or connect with McGuff or have your doc

connect with them for further info. It is a long post but organized into

sections and has lots of space around small paragraphs, making it easy as

possible to read.

On Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:03:57 -0500 Hud Ramelan <hudr@...>

writes:

> on 11/19/00 12:54 AM, Judith F Wisdom at judithwisdom@... wrote:

>

> > And again even though you haven't had trouble that's obvious from

> storing

> > 30 or 50 ml vials unpreserved in the fridge and going into them

> daily for

> > , say , a month or even half a month doesn't mean you haven't

> experienced

> > some level of microbial insult. And we do know that one of the

> hypotheses

> > about our illness and other nasty illnesses is that bugs can sit

> around

> > in our bodies a long time before becoming blatantly manifest or

> doing

> > obvious damage, and worse, the damage can not be always connected

> to the

> > bug if it hides/evades the common modes of detection, while still

> messing

> > with our immune system and thus our health.

>

> I'll wager that your toothbrush is the source of greater risk, in

> terms of

> developing an active infection from some pathogen or other, than a

> subcutaneous injection of preservative-free b12 on the 50th dose

> from a 50

> ml bottle! -- even taking into account that the subq injection is

> being

> delivered right into your tissue.

>

> We all have our priorities in life and you're certainly free to

> concern

> yourself with preventing sepsis, but it seems to me that there is no

> way to

> truly avoid becoming infected with all the zillions of

> microorganisms that

> are continuously invading our bodies. Now I " m not here promoting

> recklessness or imprudence because I do favour avoidance of

> unnecessary

> exposure to infection sources. I sometimes have second thoughts

> about going

> to the doctor's office, or to visit people in the hospital, or about

> travelling by airplane... However, I usually decide to have faith

> in my

> immune system and take certain risks.

>

> Hud

>

>

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