Re: Uh, yeah, some people with CFIDS are gay

[Guest guest]

the number one killer in africa are mainly the non HIV diseases

the highest number of HIV related deaths has occurred in Western

countries that have modern medical " treatments "

If these " treatments " especially the early ones had been available in

Africa, their death rates would have sky rocketed

the government just takes these non AIDS deaths and calls it AIDS ...

who will ever know

the only way get any overseas funding for medical facilities is

by calling all conditions AIDS. If someone has a broken leg, they get

treated for AIDS. If they didn't call it AIDS, they wouldn't be

allowed medical help. It is a quid pro quo. as long as they lie about

it, washington will fund it.

even in this country, many people have been diagnosed with AIDS even

without an HIV test.

also, there is another problem with determining HIV death in africa.

TESTING ... they couldn't afford it so one has to wonder how they

could derive such numbers except through imagination

all the AIDS test measures is HIV antibodies. It doesn't measure

whether it is harmful or whether they are infected. the high death

rate predictions have never come true.

researchers that have had non HIV related theories on AIDS have

been defunded. this pretty much alone should make you very suspicious

of any information that gets spewed out by the government

look what happen to duesberg ... this should be another alarm bell

in the US, AIDS primarily affects Gays and Blacks

from a disease point of view, this is very strange. i can't

think of any other diseases where this has occurred

some blacks believe they were targeted for genocide with " AIDS " ...

nothing would surprise me anymore

some doctor went around and injected himself with HIV infected blood.

last i heard he was doing fine. personally, i think injecting

someones blood into oneself is dangerous whether HIV infected or not.

HIV does have a role in AIDS but it is not what causes the main

assault. even after 20 years and 17 billion dollars some only " think "

they know

Even La Montagnier, the discoverer of HIV thinks there has to be

something else that causes the damage since after 20 years, the HIV

organism doesn't explain it. He'll put something out that says HIV

causes AIDS but then he will contradict himself. He does it for

political reasons.

The AIDS coverup extends to the international level since many other

countries have their own closet full of skeletons they need covered

up.

Fluffy

> > -

> >

> > Oh, your thought is not so weird - from the attention, and

positive

> > results, Ampligen is getting from AIDS victims, Ampligen will

> probably be

> > FDA approved for AIDS long before it is approved (if ever) for

> CFS... So

> > if we want our local hospital to be enabled to administer

Ampligen

> to cure

> > our CFS, we may indeed have to go " running out " and get AIDS...

> Problem is,

> > I'm not gay, and don't think you are either, nor are most CFS

> patients, so

> > guess we will have to find an AIDS patient who is willing to give

> us a

> > blood drop or two.. >>

[Guest guest]

Peggy -

I'm very sorry about my post offending you, and any others on this list. I

am certainly not homophobic - each to his/her own is my strict belief and I

will defend your and all others rights to all personal sexual thoughts,

actions, behaviors, and inclinations, to my very death. America was

founded by Jefferson on absolute individual freedom - so shall it ever be.

Your " Medically disenfranchised " applies to all persons with CFS (PWCS)

and with AIDS; none of us are even getting " a crappy level of CFIDS

medical care that many of us on this list are getting " . Crappy, hell, we

are all getting almost nothing. CFS and AIDS victims are in the same

low-NIH research funding sinking boat. So big deal, AIDS gets two

billion/yr; that is chicken feed compared to the national budget.. Let's

increase it to $50 billion next year.. Whatever it takes to get the job

done, and fast. Better save us, you govt bureaucrats, or you will soon

have no slaves to pay income tax and your high salaries..

Speaking of sinking boats, how much does it cost our country every year to

play cat-and-mouse war games with Russian submarines? Billions. Thousands

of millions of $. Despite the Cold War being over, both countries waste

big bucks on male ego war posturing and military exercises. The Russian

sub sank on a useless mission. One of ours will soon be next. The cost of

one nuclear sub, whose likely fate it is to lay rusting on the ocean

bottom, would easily pay for the research necessary to quiclkly cure both

AIDS and CFS. Cost thoughts aside, let us all say a strong prayer for the

good men on the Russian submarine and hope our govts will give up this

foolishness and spend the money on medical research.

Maybe all are out of the sub by now - haven't been keeping up in the last

few hours. After this; give it up, Washington and Moscow - both countries

have great disease scientists who need very increased research funding.

We have the knowledge and the tools - let's use them!

Mort Caldwell

Biomedical Engineer, shut down by CFS since 1994...

----------

From: Peggomatic@...[sMTP:Peggomatic@...]

Reply egroups

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 2:04 AM

egroups

Subject: Uh, yeah, some people with CFIDS are gay

Um. . .can I just point out that the following post is completely

homophobic?

AIDS is not a gay disease already! It is now the number one killer in

Africa, surpassing famine and war as the greatest cause of death. Gay men

are in fact one of the ONLY populations who, because of tremendous

grassroots

prevention efforts and the horror of seeing so many people die, have been

able to keep their prevelance rates in check. And the assumption that

CFIDS

patients would not be gay, well, offends me personally, and probably

offends

others on this list. The reason it might not look like gay people don't

get

CFIDS, or black people, or poor people, is because there are some people

who

are so medically disenfranchised that they are not getting even the crappy

level of CFIDS medical care that many of us on this list are getting.

Peggy

In a message dated 8/16/00 12:34:28 AM, egroups

writes:

<<

> -

>

> Oh, your thought is not so weird - from the attention, and positive

> results, Ampligen is getting from AIDS victims, Ampligen will

probably be

> FDA approved for AIDS long before it is approved (if ever) for

CFS... So

> if we want our local hospital to be enabled to administer Ampligen

to cure

> our CFS, we may indeed have to go " running out " and get AIDS...

Problem is,

> I'm not gay, and don't think you are either, nor are most CFS

patients, so

> guess we will have to find an AIDS patient who is willing to give

us a

> blood drop or two.. >>

This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

discussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

> low-NIH research funding sinking boat. So big deal, AIDS gets two

> billion/yr; that is chicken feed compared to the national budget..

Let's

> increase it to $50 billion next year.. Whatever it takes to get the

job

> done, and fast. Better save us, you govt bureaucrats, or you will

it isn't that simple

if you give the NIH 48 billion dollars more, it would just mean

48 billion more dollars in waste. also remember that the old boys

networks gobbles up most of the money

bringing ethical scientists to bear on the problem is more important

the people at the helm who decide what gets the research funding is

more important. you must scrutinize their past and present actions

very closely

getting the money to ethical people who truly want to find the

treatments and cures is the bottom line ... the amount of money is

secondary

Darryl

[Guest guest]

I don't really want to prolong this debate, but someone has to tell

the african side.

I lived in Southern Africa ten years. One political leader in Africa

publically doubted the HIV connection and that expensive treatments

really help. tabo umbeki, the president of South Africa. The former

president Mandela and the Health Service of South Africa is

privately embarrased about this. The problem is to get the people

there who often are not well educated to beleive that their sexual

behavior is what is giving them this illness. However, as the deathes

have started to skyrocket in the last couple years, convincing is no

longer so difficult. I lived in South Africa for two years and

southern Africa for 10. Aids education is desperatly needed. Funding

is desparately needed. The problem in South Africa is that the blacks

are getting Aids at an alarming rate. This is because the culture of

most of the tribes there allows married men to sleep with MULTIPLE

numbers of partners, and they refuse to use condoms. Aids is obvious

even without a test. the people waste away. They call it wasting

sickness. In Zimbabwe the only growth industry at the moment is death

(cofins,etc) because so many people are dying. So many people are

dying that in Zimbabwe and Botswana there is no population growth

rate expected in the coming years. This in a place where most women

still do not use birth controll. In fact there is aids testing

available. Medicine is relatively cheap in Southern Africa. A doctors

appointment is $12 dollars in Zimbabwe. This for a fully qualified

doctor. Lab tests are equally affordable and available. Pregnant

women are routinely tested for HIV. My wife was a midwife in hospital

there. This is how they extrapulate the percentage of the population

who has HIV. In most southern african countries now the infection

rate for pregnant women is 1 in 4. People who are monogomous or

practice safe sex do not get HIV. Coincidentally they do also not

develope Aids. Aids does not affect black people any differently than

white. White people in Africa get it too. White people and the well

educated blacks don't get aids very often because they practice safe

sex. It is an avoidable illness.

Matt

[Guest guest]

Matt,

I don't want to prolong this either, but I wanted to thank you for

telling this perspective. I am on lists that send me information on

the theories that HIV does not cause AIDS. I just don't have time or

mental energy to read most of it these days. But I have personally

witnessed the miracle of the " expensive drugs " that select few in

select countries are able to take. I had a young friend who

contracted HIV at age 15, almost died before graduating from high

school before the advent of protease inhibitors, and the last time I

saw him his viral load was almost nothing, and he was healthy. I

have

another friend who has been HIV positive for 14 years now, swallows

something like 100 pills and supplements a day, and is doing very

well. I think CFIDS should certainly exemplify the notion that

people

can suffer terribly without a proper name for their suffering. And

sometimes it seems to me that the struggle to take away the name HIV

from AIDS, when the HIV model has helped educate people to practice

prevention, is ignoring the whole point, which is what you said, that

even the most basic methods of prevention are not being spread as

widely as possible, due to one stigma or another. And I agree with

you that the statistics on AIDS in Africa (such as the published

statistic that I mentioned, that AIDS is the number one killer in

Africa) are probably - as with most illnesses - underestimated and

not

overestimated.

Peggy

> I don't really want to prolong this debate, but someone has to tell

> the african side.

>

> I lived in Southern Africa ten years. One political leader in

Africa

> publically doubted the HIV connection and that expensive treatments

> really help. tabo umbeki, the president of South Africa. The former

> president Mandela and the Health Service of South Africa is

> privately embarrased about this. The problem is to get the people

> there who often are not well educated to beleive that their sexual

> behavior is what is giving them this illness. However, as the

deathes

> have started to skyrocket in the last couple years, convincing is

no

> longer so difficult. I lived in South Africa for two years and

> southern Africa for 10. Aids education is desperatly needed.

Funding

> is desparately needed. The problem in South Africa is that the

blacks

> are getting Aids at an alarming rate. This is because the culture

of

> most of the tribes there allows married men to sleep with MULTIPLE

> numbers of partners, and they refuse to use condoms. Aids is

obvious

> even without a test. the people waste away. They call it wasting

> sickness. In Zimbabwe the only growth industry at the moment is

death

> (cofins,etc) because so many people are dying. So many people are

> dying that in Zimbabwe and Botswana there is no population growth

> rate expected in the coming years. This in a place where most women

> still do not use birth controll. In fact there is aids testing

> available. Medicine is relatively cheap in Southern Africa. A

doctors

> appointment is $12 dollars in Zimbabwe. This for a fully qualified

> doctor. Lab tests are equally affordable and available. Pregnant

> women are routinely tested for HIV. My wife was a midwife in

hospital

> there. This is how they extrapulate the percentage of the

population

> who has HIV. In most southern african countries now the infection

> rate for pregnant women is 1 in 4. People who are monogomous or

> practice safe sex do not get HIV. Coincidentally they do also not

> develope Aids. Aids does not affect black people any differently

than

> white. White people in Africa get it too. White people and the well

> educated blacks don't get aids very often because they practice

safe

> sex. It is an a

[Guest guest]

> I don't really want to prolong this debate, but someone has to tell

> the african side.

>

> I lived in Southern Africa ten years. One political leader in

Africa

> publically doubted the HIV connection and that expensive treatments

> really help. tabo umbeki, the president of South Africa. The former

> president Mandela and the Health Service of South Africa is

> privately embarrased about this. The problem is to get the people

if one were to tell the US side, one would have to tell people about

the danger of HIV ... same with so many other countries

it just shows how effective disinformation, cooperation and money can

do

you can get people to believe anything

> there who often are not well educated to beleive that their sexual

> behavior is what is giving them this illness. However, as the

deathes

> have started to skyrocket in the last couple years, convincing is

no

this statement doesn't support your observations

doesn't this seem like an odd event

So, almost 20 years after the US AIDS epidemic began, the deaths have

started to skyrocket even though supposedly it began first in Africa

way before that around the time of the vaccination programs in the

1950's

I'd like to know how they determined if someone died from HIV

If someone has TB and HIV and they die, what did they die of ... HIV

or TB and what about HIV and HHV6a or HIV and HHV8 or HIV and they

get hit by a truck or had HIV and bubonic plague

> longer so difficult. I lived in South Africa for two years and

> southern Africa for 10. Aids education is desperatly needed.

Funding

> is desparately needed. The problem in South Africa is that the

blacks

> are getting Aids at an alarming rate. This is because the culture

of

You mean they need more disinformation to convince the people that

they really died of AIDS rather than some of the common diseases

> most of the tribes there allows married men to sleep with MULTIPLE

> numbers of partners, and they refuse to use condoms. Aids is

obvious

> even without a test. the people waste away. They call it wasting

> sickness. In Zimbabwe the only growth industry at the moment is

death

many diseases cause wasting even ME/CFIDS in its more severe forms. I

know.

as i was saying before, HIV is diagnised with no tests in so many

cases.

assuming it is HIV just shows how preposterous things have become

> (cofins,etc) because so many people are dying. So many people are

> dying that in Zimbabwe and Botswana there is no population growth

> rate expected in the coming years. This in a place where most women

what are they dying of really

> still do not use birth controll. In fact there is aids testing

> available. Medicine is relatively cheap in Southern Africa. A

doctors

> appointment is $12 dollars in Zimbabwe. This for a fully qualified

> doctor. Lab tests are equally affordable and available. Pregnant

> women are routinely tested for HIV. My wife was a midwife in

hospital

> there. This is how they extrapulate the percentage of the

population

but how do they know someone has died from an HIV infection

HIV tests only measures antibodies

as I said, even La Montagnier doesn't really know how it happens

> who has HIV. In most southern african countries now the infection

> rate for pregnant women is 1 in 4. People who are monogomous or

> practice safe sex do not get HIV. Coincidentally they do also not

> develope Aids. Aids does not affect black people any differently

than

1 in 4 women indicates that HIV is usually harmless unless another

organism is involved since you would really get a MASSIVE population

die off of the population. This has not happened any country.

> white. White people in Africa get it too. White people and the well

> educated blacks don't get aids very often because they practice

this statement doesn't support your observations

poverty breeds NON HIV diseases so I would expect the people who are

better off economically to avoid any diseases

i would expect the people in poverty to not get tested and the US

government to use their deaths from common diseases to promote

disinformation about HIV deaths

Fluffy

[Guest guest]

Fluffy,

Do I understand you correctly to be claiming that none of the deaths

in Africa which are claimed to be from aids are not from aids? If

this is true, I find it a bit preposterous to think that for instance

a doctor with years of experience cannot tell the difference between

tuberculoses, a treatable disease, almost never fatal without hiv

infection, and normally fatal combined with HIV infection. It seems

to me that your theory would have to assume that ALL doctors in

Africa are in on the conspiracy. You can't just start claiming that

HIV kills people and all doctors beleive it and it not be true. It

makes sense to me that HIV might not work alone, that it might work

together with HHV6 to do its dirty work, but to suggest that all

doctors in Africa have been duped I find really preposterous

Matt

[Guest guest]

> Do I understand you correctly to be claiming that none of the

deaths

> in Africa which are claimed to be from aids are not from aids? If

if we use the governments definition of AIDS = HIV only, I'd say

nearly none

if we use another definition such as HHV6a + HIV then I'd say

probably many

we could use other definitions

anytime one uses the word AIDS, it should be qualified with a

definition

> this is true, I find it a bit preposterous to think that for

instance

> a doctor with years of experience cannot tell the difference

between

> tuberculoses, a treatable disease, almost never fatal without hiv

> infection, and normally fatal combined with HIV infection. It seems

Determining what people die of is as much a political, social and

economic decision as it is a medical decision. In the real world, it

may not be that simple to make a purely medical decision

> to me that your theory would have to assume that ALL doctors in

> Africa are in on the conspiracy. You can't just start claiming that

> HIV kills people and all doctors beleive it and it not be true.

HIV alone doesn't kill people. It takes something else.

>It

> makes sense to me that HIV might not work alone, that it might work

> together with HHV6 to do its dirty work, but to suggest that all

> doctors in Africa have been duped I find really preposterous

>

> Matt

agree

it could be other organisms that may or may not work in synergy with

HIV

it could be toxic chemicals for many also

maybe for many it is a combination of organisms and chemical toxins

there are a lot of possible permutations to this enigma that we can

only guess at

since AIDS=HIV then AIDS as a diagnose has to be question

in my view what they call AIDS is likely many diseases or other causes

coming up with statistics on " AIDS " is ambiguous at best

even the " war on cancer " was imaginary ...

i think the most important thing is just to realize how compromised

many entities are and all the disinformation you will need to

overcome in finding treatment. There are no easy answers.

Fluffy