RE: Sort of OT: Do Scull bones move?

[Guest guest]

--- notan ostrich <notan_ostrich@...> wrote:

<snip... lots of hard work reasearching NCR>

>

> I leave to each of you make of it what you will.

What I make of it is that you went really far out of

your way to check out something posted here. You put a

lot of time and effort into it and I am impressed by

your dedication. Your efforts bring up the

informational quality of the support this site offers

all of us.

Thank you.

Dan

BTW, first day back to work and it went pretty well. I

was bouncing off of the walls with all of the free

time... much to my own surprise.

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Be a better friend, newshound, and

know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

[Guest guest]

I have a really dear friend who is an

Occupational Therapist and also does cranial sacral therapy on me. My neck is

pretty messed up and curves the opposite way that it should curve and she can always

feel that it is out of alignment. She’s always feeling for energy flow

and she asks me did you feel that??? Sometimes I do feel things, but other

times she feels things that I don’t feel….I’ll have to ask

her more about all this. She works on a lot of children with neurological

problems and has had some amazing results. She wanted to work on , but

the doctors didn’t think it was a good idea for him and his particular

case. One thing I know is that having cranial sacral therapy has helped me with

breathing, sleep apnea, and has straightened my curvature somewhat…she

makes me even taller than I am already which I don’t like, but the

massage feels really, really good and it is just a very simple but steady touch

and gentle pressure that she uses to achieve this. I think that it can be very

healthful and maybe even offer some of the benefits that NCR claims as far as increasing

the flow of CSF, and opening up neural pathways. I can absolutely feel that

something is happening, but if I wanted any lasting effects I would probably

need to have it done on a regular basis which I don’t do. I have felt some

movement on the back of my head above the base of my skull which gives me a

really delightful rush flowing throughout my body. None of the treatments I

have had have ever helped my achalasia, although my friend had really hoped

that it would.

I think I like “a little science”

mixed in with “the hearing with my ears and hands”, because I want

to know exactly what is happening inside my body when something so obviously feels

so good or so bad!

I sent Dr Lazaroff an email and asked him what

he thinks about NCR. I’m hoping he will email me back with his thoughts.

I’ll let you know if I hear back from him.

Sandi in No CA

From:

achalasia [mailto:achalasia ] On Behalf Of notan ostrich

Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 6:14

PM

achalasia

Subject: Sort of OT:

Do Scull bones move?

The topic of NCR got me interested in this question

and I found an

interesting discussion of it over at:

Student Doctor Network Forums > Medical Student Forums > Osteopathic

Do skull bones move poll

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=109336

The context is not NCR but Cranial Osteopathy. You have to jump past the

first few junk messages to get to the interesting ones. This is part of

the Student Doctor Network and many of the people in this discussion

have been trained in medicine. Many of them are Osteopathic, (DOs).

Cranial, as some DOs like to call it, is seen by some DOs as fundamental

to Osteopathy while other DOs see it as quackery and an embarrassment.

Those that believe in it claim it can treat all kinds of problems. You

can probably find some who would be willing to try it for achalasia. The

logic is similar to that of NCR. One of the things DOs can be trained to

do is palpate (feel) movement of the scull bones due to the " cranial

rhythm. " That assumes there is a cranial rhythm to be felt. Some of the

students can not feel the movement and, I think, find it a bit like

watching the emperor parade by naked. Those who believe tell stories of

seeing it work. Some want science. Other say they only need to believe

their ears and hands. It all make for an interesting discussion.

It is long. I think page 2 is best. Some messages I found interesting

are 54 and 56. See the links on 56. On page 4 message 153 has a link to

a study that concludes that cranial mobility can be visualized and

measured on x-ray. I find some problems with that study. First they

don't use control subjects and don't see a need for them. Second, they

have the subject fully open their mouths to set the position of the jaw

and therefore the scull. The full extension of a joint can change.

Stress or activity can change it. Some people with TMJ can tell a

difference stress or chewing makes. The treatment involves human

contact. That will be relaxing for some and stressful for others. And

the treatment is near the jaw and the muscles for it.

I leave to each of you make of it what you will.

notan

[Guest guest]

Dan wrote:

> I am very concerned about a person who posts about NCR

> on this board. There are only two possibilities. The

> poster is a victim. The poster is a shill out to

> victimize a desperate person with achalasia. There is

> no third possibility.

Really, Dan? A shill? Well, crap, you broke my cover. Yes, indeed,

I am a mole, sent to victimize the achalasian masses. There are so

many of you, that my evil genius leader decided to initiate his world-

domination scheme here. I was sent to infiltrate your ranks, and

gain your trust so that you'd give him all your trust and money. Now

that I've been discoverd, though, I'll probably be reasigned to a

smaller group of sick people, like cancer patients or something.

Seriously, though, who's going to get rich by ripping off people with

achalasia? How many are there, again? About 1 in every 100,000? I

think that if I were going to try to victimize a group of people, I'd

look for a larger group. Please try not to lose sleep over it, Dan.

I'm not out to get you.

" The Poster "

P.S. I hope this is obvious, but just in case, please read most of

the above with sarcasm in mind.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I don't want to get in the middle of anything but I just want to say that you have my support. While I too would be wary of NCR, I sympathize with your desire to explore ideas. Every idea should be welcome for discussion! Also we should all remember that while some ideas won't garner the support of the group as a whole, it should never mean that we don't support the person who brought it up!! I don't think you are out to victimize anyone- surely there is no way for you to profit from a small group of people spread out across the globe!! Also, I think that most people who were warning you about NCR were just trying to help and/or protect you or give you information that you may or may not have had access to. Also, I think some people here take it as a mission to ensure that the group as a whole gets that same protection/information- irrespective of any decision that you might make personally. I think the description of "shill" was more in reference to the people providing NCR NOT to you!!

We all benefit from each other here- hope this message makes you feel a little better!

Dawn in Boston

Re: Sort of OT: Do Scull bones move?

Dan wrote:> I am very concerned about a person who posts about NCR> on this board. There are only two possibilities. The> poster is a victim. The poster is a shill out to> victimize a desperate person with achalasia. There is> no third possibility. Really, Dan? A shill? Well, crap, you broke my cover. Yes, indeed, I am a mole, sent to victimize the achalasian masses. There are so many of you, that my evil genius leader decided to initiate his world-domination scheme here. I was sent to infiltrate your ranks, and gain your trust so that you'd give him all your trust and money. Now that I've been discoverd, though, I'll probably be reasigned to a smaller group of sick people, like cancer patients or something.Seriously, though, who's going to get rich by ripping off people with achalasia? How many are there, again? About 1 in every 100,000? I think that if I were going to try to victimize a group of people, I'd look for a larger group. Please try not to lose sleep over it, Dan. I'm not out to get you. "The Poster"P.S. I hope this is obvious, but just in case, please read most of the above with sarcasm in mind.

[Guest guest]

I totally agree Dawn. I've learned a lot about other approaches and flexibility to many things in life (I'm sick, feeling sorry for myself, reaching for an old bottle of Darvocet (1999) I know, don't tell me, but my throat gets sooooooo sore., only half a pill at night) I looked around about NCR and other things that have popped up here. For me, mostly I wouldn't have the patience to get just a little bit better or guess about if some treatment is helping, I want something dramatic. Thus opted for invasive measures. I'm sure most of us, if we could have during a c-section, would have asked to step back and reevaluate for at least a few hours or days, I did and they just ignored me talking about the new Lexus the doctor bought and the deal he got and the nurse's brother has a friend who.....

The thing is achalasia fools you and you get used to it. And can keep putting it off. Searching for anything less invasive is worth it and doesn't do any harm usually.

Sandy

> > I am very concerned about a person who posts about NCR> > on this board. There are only two possibilities. The> > poster is a victim. The poster is a shill out to> > victimize a desperate person with achalasia. There is> > no third possibility. > > Really, Dan? A shill? Well, crap, you broke my cover. Yes, indeed, > I am a mole, sent to victimize the achalasian masses. There are so > many of you, that my evil genius leader decided to initiate his world-> domination scheme here. I was sent to infiltrate your ranks, and > gain your trust so that you'd give him all your trust and money. Now > that I've been discoverd, though, I'll probably be reasigned to a > smaller group of sick people, like cancer patients or something.> Seriously, though, who's going to get rich by ripping off people with > achalasia? How many are there, again? About 1 in every 100,000? I > think that if I were going to try to victimize a group of people, I'd > look for a larger group. Please try not to lose sleep over it, Dan. > I'm not out to get you.> > "The Poster"> > P.S. I hope this is obvious, but just in case, please read most of > the above with sarcasm in mind.>

[Guest guest]

Hello ,

I am sorry to be so harsh on the topic. I finally got

some time to check the messages on the group this

morning. I was thinking that, maybe, there's something

else that " Neural Cranial Restructuring " refers to

besides what Dr. Dean Howell created. After going back

to the website, it is clear that, if there were, he

would sue for violation of trademark. You can, of

course, find NCR on Quackwatch.org. What Howell's

doing is horrible and no level of verbal hostility

directed towards people like him is inappropriate.

I do not believe you are out to get me. I am certain,

however, that Dr. Howell is out to rip people off. If

you go to one of his clinics, you will be parted from

your money.

I am in slight physical pain right now. My LES hurts

enough to let me know it's there. Sometimes the pain

increases to the point where I have to stop whatever I

am doing. Dr. Howell makes a living preying on people

like me, on people like us, who want relief.

Did you ever get around to reading the legal

disclaimer, whose link I provided? You kept posting on

the topic without responding to the content of the

disclaimer and that concerns me. I worry about you and

I worry about the other people on this board because

there are lots of people out there selling snake oil.

http://www.drdeanhowell.com/ncr_legal_disclaimers.html

Here's the punch line:

" Drdeanhowell.com makes no claims or representation

that the products available on this site or through

links on this site are intended for the diagnosis,

cure, mitigation, treatment or prevention of any

disease or any medical condition. Only a licensed

medical provider can diagnose or treat medical

conditions. "

He's not even a licensed medical provider? If you read

all the other stuff on his site, he absolutely gives

me the impression that he's making such medical

claims. You posted here with the opinion that Dr

Howell's NCR (there is no other NCR) could help with

our medical conditions. If he makes no claim that he

can help us, what is he asking to be paid $700-$900

for? Oh yeah, he's assisting in our " education and

entertainment. " He's teaching us that desperate people

are easy to steal from and he's laughing at us.

What Dr Howell is doing, and what 100% of the people

who practice NCR, because all of them must be licensed

by him, is preying on people like us. Whether you

believe him or not is your concern. I don't and anyone

who looks to NCR for treatment should read the legal

disclaimer and ask themselves what it means.

Dan

--- his3princess <his3princess@...> wrote:

> Dan wrote:

> > I am very concerned about a person who posts about

> NCR

> > on this board. There are only two possibilities.

> The

> > poster is a victim. The poster is a shill out to

> > victimize a desperate person with achalasia. There

> is

> > no third possibility.

>

> Really, Dan? A shill? Well, crap, you broke my

> cover. Yes, indeed,

> I am a mole, sent to victimize the achalasian

> masses. There are so

> many of you, that my evil genius leader decided to

> initiate his world-

> domination scheme here. I was sent to infiltrate

> your ranks, and

> gain your trust so that you'd give him all your

> trust and money. Now

> that I've been discoverd, though, I'll probably be

> reasigned to a

> smaller group of sick people, like cancer patients

> or something.

> Seriously, though, who's going to get rich by

> ripping off people with

> achalasia? How many are there, again? About 1 in

> every 100,000? I

> think that if I were going to try to victimize a

> group of people, I'd

> look for a larger group. Please try not to lose

> sleep over it, Dan.

> I'm not out to get you.

>

> " The Poster "

>

> P.S. I hope this is obvious, but just in case,

> please read most of

> the above with sarcasm in mind.

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Be a better friend, newshound, and

know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

[Guest guest]

Hi Dan,

Don't worry, please. I wasn't offended by your email(slightly

annoyed, maybe). I know you have good intentions, and are probably

trying to look out for a " newbie. " I appreciate your concern,

honestly.

I feel that maybe I should clarify why I am so interested in NCR. It

seems to be a topic of concern for many of you, and I wouldn't want

anyone to think I'm being taken advantage of.

I first learned of NCR from a co-worker. I truly believe that it's

made a difference for her, so, even if it's a long shot for treating

achalasia, I want to learn more. The doctor my co-worked went to,

and the one I've been corresponing with is Dr. Jim McCarty. His web

address is www.drmccarty.com I've gotten to know this man over the

last few months and I believe that he is trying to help people, not

trying to rip people off. This man is a Christian, which is an

important factor for me, as I am also a Christian. I don't know

anything about the religious beliefs of the members of this group,

and I have no desire to push my faith on anyone. I'm only telling

you this, so that you might understand my reasonning better. Or,

maybe you'll just decide that I'm even crazier than you originally

thought, and just give up on me. And, just to be clear, I find

the " faith healers " on TV, not only false, but extremely offensive.

I do believe God can heal, but He does not require a " monetary gift, "

or whatever they call it, in exchange.

I have to be honest, and tell you that I agree with much of what

you've told me about Dr. Howell. I've been to his website, read the

rediculous claims, and the disclaimer. I know that this might not

work. I think there's probably a 95% chance that it won't. But,

what if it does? This is cheaper, and safer than surgery. I know

there are risks, but they don't even compare to the risks of

surgery. And, if it doesn't work, I can have surgery later. I

really doubt that NCR can do all the things that Dr. Howell claims it

can do. But, what if it can do 1/2 of what he says? Even if it

doesn't do a thing for achalasia, I believe there could be other

benefits. You know, like no more wrinkles, and the unlocking of my

genius potential. Lol. Kidding. If nothing else, it will be a

learning experience.

Dr. McCarty was trained by Dr. Howell, but I believe him to be a

different kind of man. He does list many benefits of NCR on his

website, but, they're a bit less fantastic, and more believable. At

least to me, they are.

I haven't made up my mind on this yet, though it might seem that I

have. I'm still in the research phase. Dr. McCarty is in CO, so

even if I do decide to try this treatment, it will not be very soon.

I wouln't want to take my children along, and I'm not ready to leave

them with my parents until they're a litte older. While I'm waiting

for the right time, I promise I will keep an open mind about this.

I'll keep looking for ways it could be a fraud. If I find something

that changes my mind about it, I'll let everyone know. I'll also

keep praying about it. Might mean nothing to some people, but it

means everything to me. I'm waiting on God's directions even more

than additional information. I won't be doing this if He warns me

against it. If He leads me to go ahead with it, then I'll do it,

knowing that something good will come of it, even if it's not the

good I'm hoping for.

I don't know if any of this eases anyone's worries, or just makes you

all think I'm a nutter. Well, I am a bit of a nutter anyway, so

think what you will. Thanks again for your concern and support. I'm

open to any more info, or opinions. I'll let you know about any

progress I make.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

What a nice email! I do think people just worry about other members on the board and I think your email makes it clear to everyone that you are aware, you have reasons and you are making decisions with your eyes wide open. That's great and I wish you all the best!

Dawn

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> ... His web address is www.drmccarty.com ...

I just had to take a look. The link was too tempting. This is not a big

deal but being me I just have to comment on something I found. This will

be a surprise to some. A few here have some idea of my past and how it

relates to what I am going to say. I am dyslexic. I have said I believe

in miracles and this is one of the reason for that, but I find miracles

are often best left as private things that don't share well, so I will

leave that part out and say that a lot of hard work went into what you

read as notan. I received straight Fs in spelling. I remember once in

about the 8th grade I tried extra hard to learn the spelling list and

received my highest score ever. The teacher was impress and announced to

the class my score and told them I deserved applause. My score was

still an F and the class thought it was a great joke. It wasn't that I

was otherwise stupid. In the 9th grade, though I scored in the bottom 3%

nationally for spelling, I also scored in the top 1% for math. Even in

my twenties I couldn't fill out a check. I remember a clerk at Red Owl

in hysterics because I couldn't spell owl. But even if I could spell all

the needed words I would have made a mess trying to use a pen. As a

senor in college, after two days of testing, I had a diagnosis and I was

told by a doctor to learn to dictate by tape recorder and have someone

type for me, because I would never be able to write the technical

reports I needed too.

Ok, I'm dyslexic and I have a past to prove it. So I went to the site

you gave the link for and one of the treatment pages listed is dyslexia.

In it he states how a patient reported being cured: 'After her four days

of treatment, Tanisha's eyes did not bulge out as much and she stated

that she could read her assignments and remember the material. The pages

were not " jumping from side to side and the letters were not upside down

and backward. " '

As someone who is dyslexic that quote bothers me. It sounds like it was

written by someone that does not understand what it is really like to be

dyslexic. It sounds to me like something someone who is not a dyslexic

would think a dyslexic would say when cured. Maybe there are some out

there that would have said it that way. Who knows. The bit about the

page jumping and the letters being upside down and backward is how we

describe the difficulty to non-dyslexics it is not what we actually see.

I have trouble with pbgq but the letters look the same on the page to me

as they do to you.

Again, this may not be a big deal, but it stood out to me.

notan

[Guest guest]

Notan wrote:

It sounds like it was written by someone that does not understand what

it is really like to be dyslexic. It sounds to me like something

someone who is not a dyslexic would think a dyslexic would say when

cured.

Notan, I've never said this to a North Dakotan before, but you seem

like a very intelligent person. I trust you opinion, and if this

person's testimonial gave you pause, I will take that into

consideration. Thanks for sharing it with me. I wouldn't have known

that it doesn't sound right, and I'm glad you told me.

[Guest guest]

his3princess wrote:

> Notan, I've never said this to a North Dakotan before, but you seem

> like a very intelligent person.

Golly! I don't know what to say. ;-)

> ... if this person's testimonial gave you pause, ...

It does, but I can't be sure about what it means. Just as a dyslexic

gets used to people expecting to hear that kind of thing one could have

answered that way knowing it was what was expected. It could also be the

doctor's interpretation of what the patient said. Perhaps the patient

actually said something like, it is easier to notice which way the

letters are facing and where each word is, and he took that to mean what

he put in quotes. I can only say it doesn't look right to me. Of course

I am skeptical of the procedure for dyslexia to start with. On something

like TMJ maybe there is more reason to think it could work being that

TMJ is more of a mechanical problem and the jaw does move, though I am

not sure just how that would be controlled. To bad they don't have an

animation of what happens inside the skull.

notan

[Guest guest]

Regarding the website for 's doctor and the testimonial for the

patient treated for dyslexia:

I haven't visited the website myself and am only commenting on what

notan has said, but I am thinking that the doctor might have treated

and possibly helped to alleviate the patient of something else

entirely (thinking it was dyslexia)as the symptoms of bulging eyes are

for Graves Disease(hyperthyroidism)....or it could also be a problem

with the drainage of the CFS. I am sure that bulging eyes might be

linked with other conditions as well... I don't think that dyslexia is

one of them, but Graves Disease and Hydrocephalus are most commonly

known for bulging eyes.

Maybe it wasn't dyslexia at all but this person might have another

problem going on that has not yet been diagnosed.

Sandi in no CA

> > Notan, I've never said this to a North Dakotan before, but you seem

> > like a very intelligent person.

>

> Golly! I don't know what to say. ;-)

>

> > ... if this person's testimonial gave you pause, ...

>

> It does, but I can't be sure about what it means. Just as a dyslexic

> gets used to people expecting to hear that kind of thing one could have

> answered that way knowing it was what was expected. It could also be

the

> doctor's interpretation of what the patient said. Perhaps the patient

> actually said something like, it is easier to notice which way the

> letters are facing and where each word is, and he took that to mean

what

> he put in quotes. I can only say it doesn't look right to me. Of course

> I am skeptical of the procedure for dyslexia to start with. On

something

> like TMJ maybe there is more reason to think it could work being that

> TMJ is more of a mechanical problem and the jaw does move, though I am

> not sure just how that would be controlled. To bad they don't have an

> animation of what happens inside the skull.

>

> notan

>

[Guest guest]

Sandi wrote:

> ... I am thinking that the doctor might have treated

> and possibly helped to alleviate the patient of something else

> entirely ...

I didn't comment on the bulging eyes because I didn't know what to make

of it. I thought it could be some NCR thing, like when they say a face

is not proportioned correctly and becomes more so with NCR treatments.

My other thought was that it was some kind of reference to eye strain.

notan