Re: Re: mj- antidepressants

[Guest guest]

The first Dr I saw 4 yrs ago gave me prozac cuz he said I was panicing and that's why I "imagined" food was getting caught.

Boy, does that ever sound familiar!!! My first GI wrote in my chart, "patient seems to think food will get stuck in her throat if she swallows it." By the time I saw my chart, I was no longer his patient, but BOY did that make me see red!!!!

Not true I know now, but the prozac actually did relax my UES. However, after a couple months the walls were moving and I felt terrible all the time, which my Dr refused to believe, but the cure was worse than the disease, so I ditched the pills. After I did, the tightness came back.

I've never been on Prozac, but a couple years ago I was on Paxil and Wellbutrin. The anti-dep's had no effect on my swallowing, but they DID stop my spasms. I hope someone somewhere is doing research on the connection between serotonin and our NCCP's!

Debbi

[Guest guest]

I think it is really interesting that anti depressants helped with spasm and/or swallowing. Again, I DO NOT advocate medical marijuana for A, but I do wonder what the mechanism is for providing some relief. At the time, I took it as evidence that MD's were right and it was "all in my head". Now I know better and wonder if there is a way to supplement neurotransmitters in way to reduce LES pressure. I too hope someone is researching it.

Warm aloha,

(in Honolulu)

Re: Re: mj- antidepressants

The first Dr I saw 4 yrs ago gave me prozac cuz he said I was panicing and that's why I "imagined" food was getting caught.

Boy, does that ever sound familiar!!! My first GI wrote in my chart, "patient seems to think food will get stuck in her throat if she swallows it." By the time I saw my chart, I was no longer his patient, but BOY did that make me see red!!!!

Not true I know now, but the prozac actually did relax my UES. However, after a couple months the walls were moving and I felt terrible all the time, which my Dr refused to believe, but the cure was worse than the disease, so I ditched the pills. After I did, the tightness came back.

I've never been on Prozac, but a couple years ago I was on Paxil and Wellbutrin. The anti-dep's had no effect on my swallowing, but they DID stop my spasms. I hope someone somewhere is doing research on the connection between serotonin and our NCCP's!

Debbi

[Guest guest]

OK, I have a few minutes before my preschooler starts demanding my

attention again (thank goodness for those wooden train tracks!)

As I said before, I've never done weed before, so I'm NOT familiar w/ what

it does to the body, etc., beyond what I've read in new accounts, etc.

So, you know me, I let my fingers do the walking! ) (for you new

members, I'm notorious for doing exhaustive internet searches and then

posting really long and probably boring dissertations on them! however, I

bow to " notan " when it comes to being the " king/queen " of finding obscure

articles... he's the BEST at finding this stuff!)

First, I looked up Trazadone, since that's what said she was taking.

I found this:

" Trazadone is an antidepressant which may act by preventing the reuptake

of serotonin into neurons. Thus, it potentiates the action of

5-hydroxytryptamine, the precusor of serotonin. "

Once again, I'm not familiar with this medication itself, but from the

description I found, it DOES sound like an SSRI type of drug (SSRI stands

for Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor) because it may prevent the

reuptake of serotonin (it may not be a " selective " inhibitor, though.) At

the very least, it has SOME sort of effect on serotonin.

Second, I looked up " marijuana and serotonin " and found the following:

In the 19th century, Cannabis was used to treat migraine headaches, which

acted by blocking the pain and preventing attacks. Migraines are caused by

the release of the neurotransmitter serotonin and smoking marijuana or the

THC inhibited the release of serotonin.

from: http://wilkes1.wilkes.edu/~kklemow/Cannabis.html

and

CANNABINOIDS BLOCK RELEASE OF SEROTONIN FROM PLATELETS INDUCED BY PLASMA

FROM MIGRAINE PATIENTS

from: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/medical/cannabin1.htm

and

BETWEEN 1840 and 1900, European and American medical journals published

more than 100 articles on the therapeutic use of the drug known then as

Cannabis Indica (or Indian hemp) and now as marihuana.(ed. Marijuana) It

was recommended as an appetite stimulant, muscle relaxant, analgesic,

hypnotic, and anti-convulsant. As late as 1913 Sir Osler

recommended it as the most satisfactory remedy for migraine.

from: http://www.indiesent.com/ganjab/jama.html

Okay, so I'm not a scientist and I don't have any fancy degrees or

anything, but these are things that I know so far:

1. When I've taken an SSRI drug (Paxil or Wellbutrin or both), I have not

had NCCP's (non cardiac chest pains, or " spasm pains " ), but they started

up again after I discontinued the drug.

2. When I've taken Meridia I have not had NCCP's. Meridia (sibutramine)

is a weight-loss drug -- I found this info from the manufacturer's website

at http://www.rxabbott.com/pdf/meridia.pdf : Sibutramine produces its

therapeutic effects by norepinephrine, serotonin, and dopamine reuptake

inhibition. Again, when I stopped the Meridia, the NCCP's started again.

3. , one of the members here, had EXCRUCIATING NCCP's -- to the

point where she made multiple trips to the emergency room and was having

to use narcotics just to get through the day. Her doctor put her on a low

dose of nortriptyline (a tricyclic antidepressant, which has an effect on

serotonin) and her NCCP's were greatly reduced, if not completely

eliminated.

4. I believe it was 's doctor who had mentioned that the NCCP's may

be a form of " nerve pain " -- pain resulting from damage to nerves. Called

neuropathic pain or neuralgia, it's experienced in a wide variety of

diseases, including the pain from " shingles " and also " phantom limb pain "

that is experienced by amputees, who feel pain and other sensations in the

limb that is no longer there. Research into neuropathic pain shows that

anti-depressants and anti-convulsants (which have an effect on serotonin)

are primary treatments:

" The mainstay of treatment are predominantly the tricyclic antidepressants

(TCA's), the anticonvulsants and the systemic local anesthetics. " (from

http://www.spineuniverse.com/displayarticle.php/article1614.html )

In fact, Neurontin, an anti-convulsant, is even FDA approved for the

treatment of nerve pain after shingles have healed, called postherpetic

neuralgia (see http://www.neurontin.com/neurontin_phn.html )

5. As I noted above, marijuana obviously has an effect on serotonin that

is at least somewhat similar to that of the medications listed in Items

1-4 above. I found a link to the names of numerous articles (although not

to the articles themselves) that discuss the use of marijuana as an

anticonvulsant, too:

http://neuro-www.mgh.harvard.edu/neurowebforum/EpilepsyArticles/conclusiveeviden\

ce.html

or http://snipurl.com/4ct0

So.... what pops out in your mind? Anyone else see any huge connection

between serotonin and the NCCP's that are associated with achalasia???

Anyone else wonder why NOBODY SEEMS TO BE RESEARCHING THIS to give relief

to those w/ debilitating NCCP's???

Debbi, off to read Curious to a 4yo boy....

[Guest guest]

Debbi Heiser wrote:

" Trazadone is an

antidepressant which may act by preventing the reuptake

of serotonin into neurons. Thus, it potentiates the action of

5-hydroxytryptamine, the precusor of serotonin. "

I think we have discussed this before. Most of the

serotonin in the body is in the gut. It plays a part in controlling many

functions. For the LES serotonin plays a part in decreasing and

increasing LES pressure. If you look at lists of substances that affect

LES pressure, you will find serotonin in the list of those that increase

LES pressure and in the list of substance that decrease LES pressure.

Whether it will increase or decrease LES pressure depends on how the

serotonin is increased, or decreased, not just if it is increased or

decreased. 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-ht) has different receptors that

respond to it and control different functions. Drugs can be

" selective " about which receptors they affect. Some will make

selected receptors more receptive, while other drugs may make different

receptors more receptive, and other drugs may make selected receptors

less receptive. There are also pain sensing nerves in the gut. Pain like

depression is connected to lower serotonin. Pain and depression can make

each other worse.

5. As I noted above,

marijuana obviously has an effect on serotonin that

is at least somewhat similar to that of the medications listed in

Items

1-4 above.

It is hard to find good sites for information about

marijuana. There are two many, (thousands), junk sites that show up in

the searches. Also, research on marijuana is political and I don't trust

researchers, pro or con, to be unbiased at this time. So, take the rest

of this with a big grain of salt.

One way marijuana acts like many antidepressants, is that it also

inhibits the reuptake of serotonin into neurons. Like antidepressants,

this increases the amount of serotonin between neurons and makes it

easier for the neurons to " fire " .

Marijuana also works in other ways. The body has receptors, known as

cannabinoid (CB) receptors, in two main types, CB1 and CB2. CB1 are found

mostly in the brain, CB2 are found mostly related to the immune system.

Both are found in some places like the tonsils. The body produces

chemicals that are of the same type as many of the chemicals found in

marijuana. Whether they are made in the body or come from marijuana they

are called cannabinoids. The main one in marijuana is THC which is not

made in the body, but you can get pills that have synthetic forms of it.

One of these drugs is Marinol which is given to control nausea. Those

created by the body are called

endogenous

cannabinoids or endocannabinoids. This is

similar to the workings of

endogenous opiates,

(Endorphins which resemble the drug opium), and the receptors that they

affect.

Cannabinoids can cause muscles in the gut to contract with less pressure

while at the same time reducing transient relaxations. For the LES this

may mean that it can reduce standing LES pressure, (good for achalasia)

and at the same time reduce Transient LES Relaxations (TLESR), good for

GERD. Who would have thought that something would be good for both

GERD and achalasia when they are such opposite conditions. See:

http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/48/6/859

Cannabinoids and the gastrointestinal

tract R G PERTWEE

This next one may explain why I get relief from

intense exercise.

http://www.gatech.edu/news/item.php?id=230

Researcher Locates Source of ‘Runner’s High’

Experienced By AthletesGeorgia Institute of

Technology

This next one has a lot of information. I put

some quotes from it below.

http://www.nap.edu/html/marimed/ch2.html

Marijuana and Medicine - Assessing the Science Base

Janet E. Joy, Stanley J. , Jr., and A. Benson, Jr.,

Editors

Division of Neuroscience and Behavioral Health

INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE

Chapter 2

Cannabinoids and Animal Physiology

" Cannabinoids tend to inhibit neurotransmission, although the results are somewhat variable. In some cases, ...the net effect would be stimulation. "

" Because there are few, if any, CB2 receptors in the brain, it might be possible to develop drugs that enhance the peripheral analgesic effect while minimizing the psychological effects. "

" ...animal studies have shown that pain sensitivity can be increased when endogenous cannabinoids are blocked from acting at CB1 receptors. "

" In spleen and tonsils the CB2 mRNA5 content is equivalent to that of CB1 mRNA in the brain. "

" ...cannabinoids can either increase or decrease cytokine production depending upon experimental conditions. "

" ...several studies have shown directly that cannabinoids can be antiinflammatory. "

" ...in rats with autoimmune encephalomyelitis (an experimental model used to study multiple sclerosis), cannabinoids were shown to attenuate the signs and the symptoms of central nervous system damage. "

" The brain develops tolerance to cannabinoids. "

notan

[Guest guest]

I’m also interested in the role of

ROS and glutamate in neurodegenerative conditions. This is an interesting

article. I thought you might be interested in reading it.

Cannabidiol and THC are Neuroprotective Antioxidants www.druglibrary.org/crl/neurological/Hampson%20et.al%2098%20Neuroprotection_%20ProcNat’lAcadSci%20.pdf

Sandi in No CA

Holt-

I think we have discussed this

before. Most of the serotonin in the body is in the gut. It plays a part in

controlling many functions. For the LES serotonin plays a part in decreasing

and increasing LES pressure. If you look at lists of substances that affect LES

pressure, you will find serotonin in the list of those that increase LES

pressure and in the list of substance that decrease LES pressure. Whether it

will increase or decrease LES pressure depends on how the serotonin is

increased, or decreased, not just if it is increased or decreased.

5-hydroxytryptamine (5-ht) has different receptors that respond to it and

control different functions. Drugs can be " selective " about which

receptors they affect. Some will make selected receptors more receptive, while

other drugs may make different receptors more receptive, and other drugs may

make selected receptors less receptive. There are also pain sensing nerves in

the gut. Pain like depression is connected to lower serotonin. Pain and

depression can make each other worse.

5. As I noted above, marijuana obviously has an

effect on serotonin that

is at least somewhat similar to that of the medications listed in Items

1-4 above.

It is hard to find good sites for

information about marijuana. There are two many, (thousands), junk sites that

show up in the searches. Also, research on marijuana is political and I don't

trust researchers, pro or con, to be unbiased at this time. So, take the rest

of this with a big grain of salt.

One way marijuana acts like many antidepressants, is that it also inhibits the

reuptake of serotonin into neurons. Like antidepressants, this increases the

amount of serotonin between neurons and makes it easier for the neurons to

" fire " .

Marijuana also works in other ways. The body has receptors, known as

cannabinoid (CB) receptors, in two main types, CB1 and CB2. CB1 are found

mostly in the brain, CB2 are found mostly related to the immune system. Both

are found in some places like the tonsils. The body produces chemicals that are

of the same type as many of the chemicals found in marijuana. Whether they are

made in the body or come from marijuana they are called cannabinoids. The main

one in marijuana is THC which is not made in the body, but you can get pills

that have synthetic forms of it. One of these drugs is Marinol which is given

to control nausea. Those created by the body are called endogenous cannabinoids or endocannabinoids. This is similar to the workings of endogenous opiates, (Endorphins which resemble the drug opium),

and the receptors that they affect.

Cannabinoids can cause muscles in the gut to contract with less pressure while

at the same time reducing transient relaxations. For the LES this may mean that

it can reduce standing LES pressure, (good for achalasia) and at the same time

reduce Transient LES Relaxations (TLESR), good for GERD. Who would have

thought that something would be good for both GERD and achalasia when they are

such opposite conditions. See:

http://gut.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/48/6/859

Cannabinoids and the gastrointestinal tract

R G

PERTWEE

This next one may

explain why I get relief from intense exercise.

http://www.gatech.edu/news/item.php?id=230

Researcher Locates Source of ‘Runner’s High’

Experienced By Athletes

Georgia

Institute of Technology

This next one has

a lot of information. I put some quotes from it below.

http://www.nap.edu/html/marimed/ch2.html

Marijuana and Medicine -

Assessing the Science Base

Janet E. Joy, Stanley J.

, Jr., and A. Benson, Jr., Editors

Division of Neuroscience and Behavioral Health

INSTITUTE OF MEDICINE

Chapter 2

Cannabinoids and Animal Physiology

" Cannabinoids tend to inhibit neurotransmission, although the results are

somewhat variable. In some cases, ...the net effect would be stimulation. "

" Because

there are few, if any, CB2 receptors in the brain, it might be possible to

develop drugs that enhance the peripheral analgesic effect while minimizing the

psychological effects. "

" ...animal

studies have shown that pain sensitivity can be increased when endogenous

cannabinoids are blocked from acting at CB1 receptors. "

" In spleen

and tonsils the CB2 mRNA5 content is equivalent to that of CB1 mRNA in the

brain. "

" ...cannabinoids

can either increase or decrease cytokine production depending upon experimental

conditions. "

" ...several

studies have shown directly that cannabinoids can be antiinflammatory. "

" ...in rats

with autoimmune encephalomyelitis (an experimental model used to study multiple

sclerosis), cannabinoids were shown to attenuate the signs and the symptoms of

central nervous system damage. "

" The brain

develops tolerance to cannabinoids. "

notan

[Guest guest]

Debbi & Notan,

You guys rule! Wish my grad students were this thorough!

Very interesting info...

Aloha,

(in Honolulu)

Re: Re: mj- antidepressants

OK, I have a few minutes before my preschooler starts demanding myattention again (thank goodness for those wooden train tracks!)As I said before, I've never done weed before, so I'm NOT familiar w/ whatit does to the body, etc., beyond what I've read in new accounts, etc. So, you know me, I let my fingers do the walking! ) (for you newmembers, I'm notorious for doing exhaustive internet searches and thenposting really long and probably boring dissertations on them! however, Ibow to "notan" when it comes to being the "king/queen" of finding obscurearticles... he's the BEST at finding this stuff!)First, I looked up Trazadone, since that's what said she was taking.I found this:"Trazadone is an antidepressant which may act by preventing the reuptakeof serotonin into neurons. Thus, it potentiates the action of5-hydroxytryptamine, the precusor of serotonin."Once again, I'm not familiar with this medication itself, but from thedescription I found, it DOES sound like an SSRI type of drug (SSRI standsfor Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor) because it may prevent thereuptake of serotonin (it may not be a "selective" inhibitor, though.) Atthe very least, it has SOME sort of effect on serotonin.Second, I looked up "marijuana and serotonin" and found the following:In the 19th century, Cannabis was used to treat migraine headaches, whichacted by blocking the pain and preventing attacks. Migraines are caused bythe release of the neurotransmitter serotonin and smoking marijuana or theTHC inhibited the release of serotonin.from: http://wilkes1.wilkes.edu/~kklemow/Cannabis.htmlandCANNABINOIDS BLOCK RELEASE OF SEROTONIN FROM PLATELETS INDUCED BY PLASMAFROM MIGRAINE PATIENTSfrom: http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/medical/cannabin1.htmandBETWEEN 1840 and 1900, European and American medical journals publishedmore than 100 articles on the therapeutic use of the drug known then asCannabis Indica (or Indian hemp) and now as marihuana.(ed. Marijuana) Itwas recommended as an appetite stimulant, muscle relaxant, analgesic,hypnotic, and anti-convulsant. As late as 1913 Sir Oslerrecommended it as the most satisfactory remedy for migraine.from: http://www.indiesent.com/ganjab/jama.htmlOkay, so I'm not a scientist and I don't have any fancy degrees oranything, but these are things that I know so far:1. When I've taken an SSRI drug (Paxil or Wellbutrin or both), I have nothad NCCP's (non cardiac chest pains, or "spasm pains"), but they startedup again after I discontinued the drug.2. When I've taken Meridia I have not had NCCP's. Meridia (sibutramine)is a weight-loss drug -- I found this info from the manufacturer's websiteat http://www.rxabbott.com/pdf/meridia.pdf : Sibutramine produces itstherapeutic effects by norepinephrine, serotonin, and dopamine reuptakeinhibition. Again, when I stopped the Meridia, the NCCP's started again.3. , one of the members here, had EXCRUCIATING NCCP's -- to thepoint where she made multiple trips to the emergency room and was havingto use narcotics just to get through the day. Her doctor put her on a lowdose of nortriptyline (a tricyclic antidepressant, which has an effect onserotonin) and her NCCP's were greatly reduced, if not completelyeliminated.4. I believe it was 's doctor who had mentioned that the NCCP's maybe a form of "nerve pain" -- pain resulting from damage to nerves. Calledneuropathic pain or neuralgia, it's experienced in a wide variety ofdiseases, including the pain from "shingles" and also "phantom limb pain"that is experienced by amputees, who feel pain and other sensations in thelimb that is no longer there. Research into neuropathic pain shows thatanti-depressants and anti-convulsants (which have an effect on serotonin)are primary treatments:"The mainstay of treatment are predominantly the tricyclic antidepressants(TCA's), the anticonvulsants and the systemic local anesthetics." (fromhttp://www.spineuniverse.com/displayarticle.php/article1614.html )In fact, Neurontin, an anti-convulsant, is even FDA approved for thetreatment of nerve pain after shingles have healed, called postherpeticneuralgia (see http://www.neurontin.com/neurontin_phn.html )5. As I noted above, marijuana obviously has an effect on serotonin thatis at least somewhat similar to that of the medications listed in Items1-4 above. I found a link to the names of numerous articles (although notto the articles themselves) that discuss the use of marijuana as ananticonvulsant, too: http://neuro-www.mgh.harvard.edu/neurowebforum/EpilepsyArticles/conclusiveevidence.htmlor http://snipurl.com/4ct0So.... what pops out in your mind? Anyone else see any huge connectionbetween serotonin and the NCCP's that are associated with achalasia???Anyone else wonder why NOBODY SEEMS TO BE RESEARCHING THIS to give reliefto those w/ debilitating NCCP's???Debbi, off to read Curious to a 4yo boy....

[Guest guest]

Holt- wrote:

Cannabidiol and THC are Neuroprotective Antioxidants

www.druglibrary.org/crl/neurological/Hampson%20et.al%2098%20Neuroprotection_%20ProcNat’lAcadSci%20.pdf

I can not get that pdf to load. All I get is a blank page. I have lots of trouble with Acrobat Reader. I uninstalled it and reinstalled it. I can get other PDFs from that site but not that one.

notan

[Guest guest]

notan,

Do you think it would work if I sent it as

an attachment? Is it o.k. to send attachments to the group?

Sandi

Holt-

RE: Re: mj-

antidepressants

Holt- wrote:

Cannabidiol and THC are Neuroprotective Antioxidants www.druglibrary.org/crl/neurological/Hampson%20et.al%2098%20Neuroprotection_%20ProcNat’lAcadSci%20.pdf

I can not get that pdf to load. All I get is a blank page. I have lots of

trouble with Acrobat Reader. I uninstalled it and reinstalled it. I can get

other PDFs from that site but not that one.

notan

[Guest guest]

notan….See

if this works!

Sandi

Holt-

RE: Re: mj-

antidepressants

Holt- wrote:

Cannabidiol and THC are Neuroprotective Antioxidants www.druglibrary.org/crl/neurological/Hampson%20et.al%2098%20Neuroprotection_%20ProcNat’lAcadSci%20.pdf

I can not get that pdf to load. All I get is a blank page. I have lots of

trouble with Acrobat Reader. I uninstalled it and reinstalled it. I can get

other PDFs from that site but not that one.

notan

[Guest guest]

Holt- wrote:

notan….See

if this works!

Sandi

It worked. I have not done much with it yet.

notan