Guest guest Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 In a message dated 1/13/2004 4:44:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, heiser@... writes: Surgery will simply open up the LES so food can go through once it gets there, but you'll still need to use gravity and water to get it down to that point. Most of the results I've seen on the site for people who have had a successful myotomy is that they can eat just about anything they want to, but that they have to have plenty of liquid to "wash it down." Question: Since many patients who have the myotomy surgery also have a fundoplication,(Nissen or Toupet), how does the food slide by the "wrapped", but wider LES? Jan in Northern KY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Genia, at this point in time there is no way to get the peristalsis to return. Surgery will simply open up the LES so food can go through once it gets there, but you'll still need to use gravity and water to get it down to that point. Most of the results I've seen on the site for people who have had a successful myotomy is that they can eat just about anything they want to, but that they have to have plenty of liquid to "wash it down." They're supposedly doing research for something that would be implanted (like a pacemaker) to electrically stimulate the muscles to contract in peristaltic waves, but that's a decade or so down the road according to the last GI I talked to about it. Debbi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Hi Genia, Unfortunately, once the nerves have died resulting in no peristalsis, muscle contractions do not return. That is why so much food builds up and you always hear about people in the group drinking so much water. Personally, I drink a liter of milk every day with my food instead of water. It's not really a huge issue though. Gravity works well Good luck, . -- surgery and esophageal peristalsis I am curious.I am suppose to meet with a surgeon on Monday, (If he knows how to do the surgery and does it often). I have been thinking, I basically have lost all m my esophageal peristalsis, when I get the surgery, does any of the muscle contraction come back in my esophagus?what are your results from the surgery?Thanks,Genia from Michigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 --- Genia, Please don't be too upset about the paristalsis in your E. You just won't be able to eat laying down, I can think of a lot worse. Your not suppose to eat while laying down anyway! ha ha Jenifer In achalasia , " lotsalaughs34 " <lotsalaughs34@y...> wrote: > I am curious. > I am suppose to meet with a surgeon on Monday, (If he knows how to do > the surgery and does it often). I have been thinking, I basically > have lost all m my esophageal peristalsis, when I get the surgery, > does any of the muscle contraction come back in my esophagus? > what are your results from the surgery? > > Thanks, > Genia from Michigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Genia, My understanding is that the loss of peristalsis is due to the muscles of the esophagus being stretched out and not due to nerve loss. If I'm right about that, then at least theoretically some perstalisis could return. I know that my esophagus was quite distended prior to surgery. I can feel that I do currently have some peristalisis. What I can't say is whether it is more than I had pre surgery. As others have posted, it doesn't matter much as long as I don't eat while laying down or do space travel. Gravity and liquids works just fine. In resteraunts I've learned to always ask for water and often order iced tea (which is ussually free refills for some odd reason!). I suggest you ask this question to your surgeon and let us know what she/he says....I'll be interested to hear. Good luck with it all... Aloha, surgery and esophageal peristalsis I am curious.I am suppose to meet with a surgeon on Monday, (If he knows how to do the surgery and does it often). I have been thinking, I basically have lost all m my esophageal peristalsis, when I get the surgery, does any of the muscle contraction come back in my esophagus?what are your results from the surgery?Thanks,Genia from Michigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 --- Hi , I think you may be right because when I asked one of the surgeons I consulted with if I would ever regain peristalsis he told me probably not but maybe. This was a doctor at the Cleveland Clinic. Jenifer In achalasia , " Dr. L. " <@D...> wrote: > Genia, > > My understanding is that the loss of peristalsis is due to the muscles of the esophagus being stretched out and not due to nerve loss. If I'm right about that, then at least theoretically some perstalisis could return. I know that my esophagus was quite distended prior to surgery. I can feel that I do currently have some peristalisis. What I can't say is whether it is more than I had pre surgery. > > As others have posted, it doesn't matter much as long as I don't eat while laying down or do space travel. Gravity and liquids works just fine. In resteraunts I've learned to always ask for water and often order iced tea (which is ussually free refills for some odd reason!). > > I suggest you ask this question to your surgeon and let us know what she/he says....I'll be interested to hear. > > Good luck with it all... > > Aloha, > surgery and esophageal peristalsis > > > I am curious. > I am suppose to meet with a surgeon on Monday, (If he knows how to do > the surgery and does it often). I have been thinking, I basically > have lost all m my esophageal peristalsis, when I get the surgery, > does any of the muscle contraction come back in my esophagus? > what are your results from the surgery? > > Thanks, > Genia from Michigan > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Hello- My Achalasia is due to nerve loss so I have no perstalisis in the lower half of my E. The top half still works some. My E is stretched out due to the pushing of food down without release of the LES. So, I will not have any return of perstalisis in the lower half. Shows how different everyone is here. I have a myotomy scheduled for next week. >>> @... 01/13/04 05:56PM >>> Genia, My understanding is that the loss of peristalsis is due to the muscles of the esophagus being stretched out and not due to nerve loss. If I'm right about that, then at least theoretically some perstalisis could return. I know that my esophagus was quite distended prior to surgery. I can feel that I do currently have some peristalisis. What I can't say is whether it is more than I had pre surgery. As others have posted, it doesn't matter much as long as I don't eat while laying down or do space travel. Gravity and liquids works just fine. In resteraunts I've learned to always ask for water and often order iced tea (which is ussually free refills for some odd reason!). I suggest you ask this question to your surgeon and let us know what she/he says....I'll be interested to hear. Good luck with it all... Aloha, surgery and esophageal peristalsis I am curious. I am suppose to meet with a surgeon on Monday, (If he knows how to do the surgery and does it often). I have been thinking, I basically have lost all m my esophageal peristalsis, when I get the surgery, does any of the muscle contraction come back in my esophagus? what are your results from the surgery? Thanks, Genia from Michigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Hi ; I had asked my Specialist several years ago about the reasons for loss of peristalsis. He specifically told me it was caused from the nerve damage. I had no peristalsis before my esophagus was stretched. On my very first scope, he had a hard time because everything was so narrow. Also, 12 years later, I am still numb all around my incision get the occasional shooting pain from scar tissue when I stretch. Maybe he was wrong, who knows, but I thought I'd add what I was told. Hope you're getting a nice tan! I'm freezing in Thunder bay. -32 Celsius . -- Re: surgery and esophageal peristalsis Genia, My understanding is that the loss of peristalsis is due to the muscles of the esophagus being stretched out and not due to nerve loss. If I'm right about that, then at least theoretically some perstalisis could return. I know that my esophagus was quite distended prior to surgery. I can feel that I do currently have some peristalisis. What I can't say is whether it is more than I had pre surgery. As others have posted, it doesn't matter much as long as I don't eat while laying down or do space travel. Gravity and liquids works just fine. In resteraunts I've learned to always ask for water and often order iced tea (which is ussually free refills for some odd reason!). I suggest you ask this question to your surgeon and let us know what she/he says....I'll be interested to hear. Good luck with it all... Aloha, surgery and esophageal peristalsis I am curious.I am suppose to meet with a surgeon on Monday, (If he knows how to do the surgery and does it often). I have been thinking, I basically have lost all m my esophageal peristalsis, when I get the surgery, does any of the muscle contraction come back in my esophagus?what are your results from the surgery?Thanks,Genia from Michigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 - Before I had my surgery I had to drink a lot of water when I ate. Now I can eat with no liquid. The only time I feel the need to wash it down is if I eat something like doughnuts. Jenifer -- In achalasia , JMB000001@a... wrote: > In a message dated 1/13/2004 4:44:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > heiser@t... writes: > Surgery will simply open up the LES so food can go through once it gets > there, but you'll still need to use gravity and water to get it down to that point. > Most of the results I've seen on the site for people who have had a > successful myotomy is that they can eat just about anything they want to, but that > they have to have plenty of liquid to " wash it down. " > > Question: > Since many patients who have the myotomy surgery also have a > fundoplication,(Nissen or Toupet), how does the food slide by the " wrapped " , but wider LES? > Jan in Northern KY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 , Thanks for the info. The last time I talked to an MD about A was so long ago. Hopefully they understand better now. As some posts are pointing out, we may have different situations. I guess the only thing I "know" is that sometimes it feels as though I have parrastollisis (sp?) and sometimes I don't. When I see my new MD I'll ask for an oppinion. Aloha, surgery and esophageal peristalsis I am curious.I am suppose to meet with a surgeon on Monday, (If he knows how to do the surgery and does it often). I have been thinking, I basically have lost all m my esophageal peristalsis, when I get the surgery, does any of the muscle contraction come back in my esophagus?what are your results from the surgery?Thanks,Genia from Michigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2004 Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 wrote: > As some posts are pointing > out, we may have different situations. I guess the only thing I " know " is > that sometimes it feels as though I have parrastollisis (sp?) and > sometimes I don't. When I see my new MD I'll ask for an oppinion. Just wanted to clear up something. In many of us in this group, the " peristaltic contractions " seem to vary. I've always been able to see my manometry (I've had maybe 6-10 in the past decade.... kinda lost count!) and I've always discussed it with the technician and/or the physician. It was very obvious from looking at my manometry what was happening in my esophagus when I swallowed. For the purposes of this (over-simplified) illustration, think of the " regions " of an esophagus labeled A, B, C, and D, with A being closest to the top and D being the LES. In a normal person, when they first swallow food, they'll get a contraction at the top (A), then further down (, then further down © and a little more (D) and finally the LES will open and the food will pass into the stomach. In just one 45-minute session, I can have a swallow where ABCD all contract simultaneously. Another swallow will have A and C together, but no activity by B and D. Sometimes they'll contract in a random pattern, maybe something like A B D B C A D B D B C B C A D B (this one is really neat to watch on video from fluoroscopy (video x-rays)... I call it the " ping-pong " effect, b/c you can see the barium bouncing up and down, back and forth.) Sometimes no regions contract at all, or they do enough to make a teeny bump on the manometry, but nothing like the big MOUNTAIN bump you'd get from a normal person. And sometimes I'll get a funky contraction when I wasn't even swallowing. For people who say they have " no peristalsis " I think it would be good to clarify what you mean, b/c not everyone interprets that the same. I think for the purposes of this discussion, it's being interpreted to mean NO contractions at all, and it would help if everyone could clarify what we mean so we're all on the same page. Technically, peristalsis is defined as " successive waves of involuntary contraction passing along the walls of a hollow muscular structure (as the esophagus or intestine) and forcing the contents onward " (according to Merriam-Webster.) By definition, then, " aperistalsis " is not the complete absence of ANY contractions, but rather the absence of SUCCESSIVE WAVES of contraction (as in A then B then C then D.) My " ping pong " contractions are, indeed, contractions, and they do move the bolus (swallowed food/liquid) around inside my esophagus, but they are *not* defined as PERISTALTIC contractions, because they don't occur in the A B C D order like they are supposed to, and they don't properly propel the food along my esophagus towards the end goal of having the food reach the stomach. We also have peristaltic contractions throughout our GI tract... that's what propels the food through the small and large intestines as it's being digested. Debbi in Michigan, also cold but not nearly as cold as in Thunder Bay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Hi Debbi, I have no peristalsis - zero muscle movement - from 2 thirds of the way down - about the level of your B. This is also because I have a huge diverticulum at that point [ a break in the oesophageal wall where the wall balloons outwards] I had a video barium swallow and it was fascinating to watch it all, but from level B there was definitely no movement and the barium came down slowly by gravity. Possibly it will depend on the amount of damage done to the oesopageal wall prior to having a relase procedure done, wheter peristalsis returns. There could be nerve damage and the wall muscles could have become overstretched. It as hot as Hades here right now - come and visit! Joan Johannesburg South Africajpearse@... Re: surgery and oesophageal peristalsis wrote:> As some posts are pointing> out, we may have different situations. I guess the only thing I "know" is> that sometimes it feels as though I have peristalsis (sp?) and> sometimes I don't. When I see my new MD I'll ask for an oppinion.Just wanted to clear up something. In many of us in this group, the"peristaltic contractions" seem to vary. I've always been able to see mymanometry (I've had maybe 6-10 in the past decade.... kinda lost count!)and I've always discussed it with the technician and/or the physician. Itwas very obvious from looking at my manometry what was happening in myesophagus when I swallowed.For the purposes of this (over-simplified) illustration, think of the"regions" of an esophagus labeled A, B, C, and D, with A being closest tothe top and D being the LES. In a normal person, when they first swallowfood, they'll get a contraction at the top (A), then further down (,then further down © and a little more (D) and finally the LES will openand the food will pass into the stomach.In just one 45-minute session, I can have a swallow where ABCD allcontract simultaneously. Another swallow will have A and C together, butno activity by B and D. Sometimes they'll contract in a random pattern,maybe something like A B D B C A D B D B C B C A D B (this one is reallyneat to watch on video from fluoroscopy (video x-rays)... I call it the"ping-pong" effect, b/c you can see the barium bouncing up and down, backand forth.) Sometimes no regions contract at all, or they do enough tomake a teeny bump on the manometry, but nothing like the big MOUNTAIN bumpyou'd get from a normal person. And sometimes I'll get a funkycontraction when I wasn't even swallowing.For people who say they have "no peristalsis" I think it would be good toclarify what you mean, b/c not everyone interprets that the same. I thinkfor the purposes of this discussion, it's being interpreted to mean NOcontractions at all, and it would help if everyone could clarify what wemean so we're all on the same page.Technically, peristalsis is defined as "successive waves of involuntarycontraction passing along the walls of a hollow muscular structure (as theesophagus or intestine) and forcing the contents onward" (according toMerriam-Webster.) By definition, then, "aperistalsis" is not the completeabsence of ANY contractions, but rather the absence of SUCCESSIVE WAVES ofcontraction (as in A then B then C then D.)My "ping pong" contractions are, indeed, contractions, and they do movethe bolus (swallowed food/liquid) around inside my esophagus, but they are*not* defined as PERISTALTIC contractions, because they don't occur in theA B C D order like they are supposed to, and they don't properly propelthe food along my esophagus towards the end goal of having the food reachthe stomach.We also have peristaltic contractions throughout our GI tract... that'swhat propels the food through the small and large intestines as it's beingdigested.Debbi in Michigan, also cold but not nearly as cold as in Thunder Bay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Joan, I'm on a plane right now -- what's your address!!! Hehehehe We're getting about 3-5" of snow right now.... want me to send you some??? Hi Debbi, I have no peristalsis - zero muscle movement - from 2 thirds of the way down - about the level of your B. This is also because I have a huge diverticulum at that point [ a break in the oesophageal wall where the wall balloons outwards] I had a video barium swallow and it was fascinating to watch it all, but from level B there was definitely no movement and the barium came down slowly by gravity. Possibly it will depend on the amount of damage done to the oesopageal wall prior to having a relase procedure done, wheter peristalsis returns. There could be nerve damage and the wall muscles could have become overstretched. It as hot as Hades here right now - come and visit! Joan Johannesburg South Africa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Jan wrote: Question: Since many patients who have the myotomy surgery also have a fundoplication,(Nissen or Toupet), how does the food slide by the "wrapped", but wider LES? Jan, I may be wrong but I don't think that most people end up with a fundoplication anymore, from what I've seen in this group over the past year or so. Offhand I'd guess that half or less get "wrapped." For those who do have a fundoplication with the Heller Myotomy, the grand majority either have the Toupet or Dor - the Nissen is generally only done for GERD patients, not for those w/ achalasia. Both Toupet and Dor are "partial" fundoplication, with Toupet being a posterior (around the back) wrap and Dor being an anterior (around the front) wrap. Neither of these go all the way around (as the Nissen does) -- I believe the Toupet goes around 270-degrees and the Dor only goes around 180-degrees, instead of the full 360-degrees to go completely around the esophagus. This gives a much looser wrap than the Nissen... I've seen reference to it being called a "floppy fundoplication" even. Below is an interesting write-up, excerpted from http://www.tcd.ie/tsmj/2003/achcardia.htm This originates in Ireland, so they use the UK-style of spelling esophagus as oesophagus, so it can catch you off guard when you forget about the variation in spelling. LOS in the article is LES to North Americans.... GOR is our GERD, etc. As you can see, there is some question whether a fundoplication needs to be done at all (I believe that's why more and more people are now having the Heller Myotomy w/ no wrap at all -- in the past it was assumed to be necessary, but now some docs aren't convinced and they don't do it anymore.) But to answer your main question, a PARTIAL wrap isn't as tight as the untreated, clamped-shut LES, so food can indeed go through even without peristalsis. Hope that helps a bit!Debbi THE CONTROVERSY In the surgical treatment of achalasia, a balance must be found - there must be a sufficient decrease in oesophageal obstruction to provide symptomatic relief, but an excessive decrease in LOS pressure results in GOR. An anti-reflux procedure is sometimes added to avoid this. Laparoscopic procedures are either combined with a Floppy Toupet Fundoplication attached to the sides of the myotomy or a Dor fundoplication, known as the laparoscopic Heller-Dor fundoplication. There is, nonetheless, considerable debate surrounding the actual therapeutic value of such an addition. Arguments against an Anti-reflux procedure after oesophageal myotomy: It is clear that adding a complete fundoplication increases resistance at the GO junction and defeats the objective of the myotomy i.e. to decrease this resistance. There is, however, evidence that even partial fundoplication procedures, e.g. Toupet and Dor techniques, increase LOS resistance and could compromise the effectiveness of the myotomy. Ellis et al. (1984) have achieved excellent relief of dysphagia with Heller myotomy alone, with only 9-15% of patients having unsatisfactory results.31 s et al. (1999) studied gastroesophageal reflux in 75 patients who had been treated by myotomy without fundoplication. They discovered that there was only a very weak correlation between patients’ perceptions of their GOR (heartburn symptoms), as evaluated by a questionnaire, and objective measurement of reflux by a distal pH sensor.32 This proves that heartburn symptoms are not a reliable indicator of GOR in achalasia patients and should not be used as a justification to perform a fundoplication procedure with myotomy. Furthermore, the same author found that confirmed pathological acid reflux, present in only 13% of patients, does not conform to the usual Gastro-Oesophageal Reflux Disease (GORD) pattern. Reflux events in achalasia patients occur less frequently, are of a longer duration and happen predominantly when the patient is supine.33 This suggests that it is inadequate clearance of fermented food and/or refluxed acid, rather than true acid reflux, which is responsible for post-myotomy heartburn. This theory is strengthened by the finding, corroborated by Ellis, that the patients most likely to have such symptoms were those with the highest LOS pressures i.e. higher resistance across the GO junction.34 Thus a fundoplication procedure, aimed at increasing this resistance, could potentially worsen heartburn symptoms. Indeed, pathological acid reflux following myotomy with fundoplication has been found by Patti et al.(2001) and by Csendes et al.(1981) in 17% and 19% of patients respectively. This (shows that fundoplication clearly does not fully solve the problem of post-myotomy reflux. Bonavina et al (1992)., meanwhile, achieved a very impressive 8.6% incidence of reflux when myotomy was performed without an anti-reflux procedure.37 Finally, the risk-benefit ratio of adding an anti-reflux procedure must be considered. Patti et al. noteed a risk of technical problems with a Dor fundoplication and suggest that these may be avoided by skilled surgery and meticulous attention to detail.35 However, surgeons may not perform these procedures with sufficient regularity to ensure this. A simpler procedure plainly reduces the risk of technical hitches. As previously mentioned, s et al.(2001) report pathological acid reflux in 13% of patients when myotomy is performed without an associated fundoplication.33 Routine addition of an anti-reflux procedure would thus treat 87% of patients needlessly. This is particularly pointless when one considers the fact that medication frequently suffices to control reflux symptoms in this 13%. The dysphagia which results from an insufficiently lowered LOS pressure, meanwhile, requires far more drastic treatment measures, namely pneumatic dilatation or even further surgery. Arguments in favour of an Anti-reflux procedure after oesophageal myotomy: Iatrogenic GORD has only recently been given proper consideration and recognition. There are therefore a limited number of studies objectively documenting oesophageal acid exposure after treatment for achalasia. Those that are available reveal some interesting trends (Tables 1 and 2). Table 1. Postoperative pH studies after transthoracic limited myotomy without fundoplication for the treatment of achalasia Table 2. Postoperative pH studies following laparoscopic myotomy and fundoplication for the treatment of achalasia Relevant to the "pro-anti-reflux procedure" argument is the fact that reflux-induced stricture after an oesophageal myotomy is a severe problem, and usually requires oesophagectomy for relief of symptoms. Long-term data stress the need for anti-reflux protection. Malthaner et al. (1994) reported on long-term clinical results in 35 patients with achalasia.22 These patients had undergone primary oesophageal myotomy and Belsey hemifundoplication at Toronto General Hospital. The minimum follow up time was 10 years. Excellent results were found in 95% of patients at 1 year, declining to 68% after 10 years. It was concluded that there was a deterioration of the initially good results after surgical myotomy and hiatal repair, and that most of the deterioration was due to the complication of GOR.38 In another study, Ellis reported his experience with transthoracic short oesophageal myotomy without an anti-reflux procedure. 179 patients were analysed at a mean follow-up of 9 years, ranging from 6 months to 20 years. Overall, 89 % of patients were improved at 9 years post-operatively. Ellis also noted deterioration in good results with time. The fact that his clinical data was similar to findings in the Toronto study suggests the likelihood that reflux played a significant role in his results as well.34 Another relevant finding of several recent studies is that a post-treatment sphincter pressure of less than 10mmHg is required for long term relief of dysphagia.39,40 This is relevant because it shows that near complete disruption of the sphincter is required to relieve dysphagia in the long term. In one of the largest studies reported yet, Bonavina et al. (1992) report good to excellent results with transabdominal myotomy and Dor fundoplication. 94% of 198 patients had excellent/good outcomes after a mean follow-up of 5.4 years. A remarkable 81% of patients returned for post-operative 24-hour pH studies, of which only 7 (8.6%) had a positive test result. Oesophageal diameter was significantly decreased post myotomy, as was LOS pressure (40.5 +/- 9.7 to 11.7 +/- 4.7 mmHg).37 Zaninotto et al. (2000) reported results in 100 patients who underwent a laparoscopic Heller-Dor procedure. 70% of patients reported no dysphagia and 22 % complained of only occasional difficulty swallowing. 7 patients were salvaged by post-operative pneumatic dilatation. Of note, 24-hour oesophageal pH monitoring showed abnormal reflux in only 5 (6.5%) of 63 patients tested.41 These studies confirm that laparoscopic Heller-Dor fundoplication achieves excellent medium-term results. Patti et al. (1999) compared the outcome of 30 patients who had undergone laparoscopic myotomy with a Dor anterior fundoplication to that of 30 patients who had undergone thoracoscopic myotomy without anti-reflux repair. Dysphagia was well-relieved by both the laparoscopic and thoracoscopic groups (77% and 70% success rates respectively). 20% of patients in the group who did not have a fundoplication had a positive post-operative 24-hour pH study result compared to only 3% following the Heller-Dor procedure.30 CONCLUSION GOR is uncommon in achalasia patients who have not undergone surgery and most evidence suggests that pH proved-reflux is minimised by the addition of a partial fundoplication to a myotomy. Studies show that abdominal myotomy combined with fundoplication provides excellent symptomatic outcomes in both the short- and the long-term in patients with achalasia. Perhaps it is better to perform a partial fundoplication with a myotomy in a single operation, and thereby reduce the risk of reflux, than to risk post-operative reflux, its complications and with them, further radical surgery. On the other hand, why complicate a surgical procedure with addition of fundoplication when such an addition risks compromising the very outcome of the surgery (i.e. by re-increasing the LOS pressure reduced by the myotomy)? Also, the fundoplication procedure has not yet been definitely proven to prevent GOR and, in any case, may be unnecessary in the majority of patients. It is evident that there is an urgent need for in-depth study of this question. Only a randomised controlled trial of Heller myotomy, with and without an anti-reflux procedure, including full patient evaluation by questionnaire, manometry and 24 hour pH studies can provide a satisfactory answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 - I had a partial wrap and have no problem eating. I think I would be afraid of not having a partial wrap because I would be afraid of reflux and all that acid in my E. Jenifer -- In achalasia , " Debbi Heiser " <heiser@t...> wrote: > Jan wrote: > Question: > Since many patients who have the myotomy surgery also have a fundoplication,(Nissen or Toupet), how does the food slide by the " wrapped " , but wider LES? > > Jan, I may be wrong but I don't think that most people end up with a fundoplication anymore, from what I've seen in this group over the past year or so. Offhand I'd guess that half or less get " wrapped. " > > For those who do have a fundoplication with the Heller Myotomy, the grand majority either have the Toupet or Dor - the Nissen is generally only done for GERD patients, not for those w/ achalasia. Both Toupet and Dor are " partial " fundoplication, with Toupet being a posterior (around the back) wrap and Dor being an anterior (around the front) wrap. Neither of these go all the way around (as the Nissen does) -- I believe the Toupet goes around 270-degrees and the Dor only goes around 180-degrees, instead of the full 360-degrees to go completely around the esophagus. This gives a much looser wrap than the Nissen... I've seen reference to it being called a " floppy fundoplication " even. > > Below is an interesting write-up, excerpted from http://www.tcd.ie/tsmj/2003/achcardia.htm > > This originates in Ireland, so they use the UK-style of spelling esophagus as oesophagus, so it can catch you off guard when you forget about the variation in spelling. LOS in the article is LES to North Americans.... GOR is our GERD, etc. > > As you can see, there is some question whether a fundoplication needs to be done at all (I believe that's why more and more people are now having the Heller Myotomy w/ no wrap at all -- in the past it was assumed to be necessary, but now some docs aren't convinced and they don't do it anymore.) > > But to answer your main question, a PARTIAL wrap isn't as tight as the untreated, clamped-shut LES, so food can indeed go through even without peristalsis. > > Hope that helps a bit! > > Debbi > > > THE CONTROVERSY > > > > In the surgical treatment of achalasia, a balance must be found - there must be a sufficient decrease in oesophageal obstruction to provide symptomatic relief, but an excessive decrease in LOS pressure results in GOR. An anti-reflux procedure is sometimes added to avoid this. Laparoscopic procedures are either combined with a Floppy Toupet Fundoplication attached to the sides of the myotomy or a Dor fundoplication, known as the laparoscopic Heller-Dor fundoplication. There is, nonetheless, considerable debate surrounding the actual therapeutic value of such an addition. > > > > Arguments against an Anti-reflux procedure after oesophageal myotomy: > > > > It is clear that adding a complete fundoplication increases resistance at the GO junction and defeats the objective of the myotomy i.e. to decrease this resistance. There is, however, evidence that even partial fundoplication procedures, e.g. Toupet and Dor techniques, increase LOS resistance and could compromise the effectiveness of the myotomy. Ellis et al. (1984) have achieved excellent relief of dysphagia with Heller myotomy alone, with only 9- 15% of patients having unsatisfactory results.31 > > > > s et al. (1999) studied gastroesophageal reflux in 75 patients who had been treated by myotomy without fundoplication. They discovered that there was only a very weak correlation between patients' perceptions of their GOR (heartburn symptoms), as evaluated by a questionnaire, and objective measurement of reflux by a distal pH sensor.32 This proves that heartburn symptoms are not a reliable indicator of GOR in achalasia patients and should not be used as a justification to perform a fundoplication procedure with myotomy. > > > > Furthermore, the same author found that confirmed pathological acid reflux, present in only 13% of patients, does not conform to the usual Gastro-Oesophageal Reflux Disease (GORD) pattern. Reflux events in achalasia patients occur less frequently, are of a longer duration and happen predominantly when the patient is supine.33 This suggests that it is inadequate clearance of fermented food and/or refluxed acid, rather than true acid reflux, which is responsible for post-myotomy heartburn. This theory is strengthened by the finding, corroborated by Ellis, that the patients most likely to have such symptoms were those with the highest LOS pressures i.e. higher resistance across the GO junction.34 Thus a fundoplication procedure, aimed at increasing this resistance, could potentially worsen heartburn symptoms. Indeed, pathological acid reflux following myotomy with fundoplication has been found by Patti et al.(2001) and by Csendes et al.(1981) in 17% and 19% of patients respectively. This (shows that fundoplication clearly does not fully solve the problem of post-myotomy reflux. Bonavina et al (1992)., meanwhile, achieved a very impressive 8.6% incidence of reflux when myotomy was performed without an anti-reflux procedure.37 > > > > Finally, the risk-benefit ratio of adding an anti-reflux procedure must be considered. Patti et al. noteed a risk of technical problems with a Dor fundoplication and suggest that these may be avoided by skilled surgery and meticulous attention to detail.35 However, surgeons may not perform these procedures with sufficient regularity to ensure this. A simpler procedure plainly reduces the risk of technical hitches. > > > > As previously mentioned, s et al.(2001) report pathological acid reflux in 13% of patients when myotomy is performed without an associated fundoplication.33 Routine addition of an anti-reflux procedure would thus treat 87% of patients needlessly. This is particularly pointless when one considers the fact that medication frequently suffices to control reflux symptoms in this 13%. The dysphagia which results from an insufficiently lowered LOS pressure, meanwhile, requires far more drastic treatment measures, namely pneumatic dilatation or even further surgery. > > > > Arguments in favour of an Anti-reflux procedure after oesophageal myotomy: > > > > Iatrogenic GORD has only recently been given proper consideration and recognition. There are therefore a limited number of studies objectively documenting oesophageal acid exposure after treatment for achalasia. Those that are available reveal some interesting trends (Tables 1 and 2). > > > > Table 1. Postoperative pH studies after transthoracic limited myotomy without fundoplication for the treatment of achalasia > > > > > > > > Table 2. Postoperative pH studies following laparoscopic myotomy and fundoplication for the treatment of achalasia > > > > > > > > Relevant to the " pro-anti-reflux procedure " argument is the fact that reflux-induced stricture after an oesophageal myotomy is a severe problem, and usually requires oesophagectomy for relief of symptoms. > > > > Long-term data stress the need for anti-reflux protection. Malthaner et al. (1994) reported on long-term clinical results in 35 patients with achalasia.22 These patients had undergone primary oesophageal myotomy and Belsey hemifundoplication at Toronto General Hospital. The minimum follow up time was 10 years. Excellent results were found in 95% of patients at 1 year, declining to 68% after 10 years. It was concluded that there was a deterioration of the initially good results after surgical myotomy and hiatal repair, and that most of the deterioration was due to the complication of GOR.38 In another study, Ellis reported his experience with transthoracic short oesophageal myotomy without an anti-reflux procedure. 179 patients were analysed at a mean follow-up of 9 years, ranging from 6 months to 20 years. Overall, 89 % of patients were improved at 9 years post-operatively. Ellis also noted deterioration in good results with time. The fact that his clinical data was similar to findings in the Toronto study suggests the likelihood that reflux played a significant role in his results as well.34 > > > > Another relevant finding of several recent studies is that a post- treatment sphincter pressure of less than 10mmHg is required for long term relief of dysphagia.39,40 This is relevant because it shows that near complete disruption of the sphincter is required to relieve dysphagia in the long term. > > > > In one of the largest studies reported yet, Bonavina et al. (1992) report good to excellent results with transabdominal myotomy and Dor fundoplication. 94% of 198 patients had excellent/good outcomes after a mean follow-up of 5.4 years. A remarkable 81% of patients returned for post-operative 24-hour pH studies, of which only 7 (8.6%) had a positive test result. Oesophageal diameter was significantly decreased post myotomy, as was LOS pressure (40.5 +/- 9.7 to 11.7 +/- 4.7 mmHg).37 > > > > Zaninotto et al. (2000) reported results in 100 patients who underwent a laparoscopic Heller-Dor procedure. 70% of patients reported no dysphagia and 22 % complained of only occasional difficulty swallowing. 7 patients were salvaged by post-operative pneumatic dilatation. Of note, 24-hour oesophageal pH monitoring showed abnormal reflux in only 5 (6.5%) of 63 patients tested.41 > > > > These studies confirm that laparoscopic Heller-Dor fundoplication achieves excellent medium-term results. > > > > Patti et al. (1999) compared the outcome of 30 patients who had undergone laparoscopic myotomy with a Dor anterior fundoplication to that of 30 patients who had undergone thoracoscopic myotomy without anti-reflux repair. Dysphagia was well-relieved by both the laparoscopic and thoracoscopic groups (77% and 70% success rates respectively). 20% of patients in the group who did not have a fundoplication had a positive post-operative 24-hour pH study result compared to only 3% following the Heller-Dor procedure.30 > > > > CONCLUSION > > > > GOR is uncommon in achalasia patients who have not undergone surgery and most evidence suggests that pH proved-reflux is minimised by the addition of a partial fundoplication to a myotomy. Studies show that abdominal myotomy combined with fundoplication provides excellent symptomatic outcomes in both the short- and the long-term in patients with achalasia. Perhaps it is better to perform a partial fundoplication with a myotomy in a single operation, and thereby reduce the risk of reflux, than to risk post-operative reflux, its complications and with them, further radical surgery. > > > > On the other hand, why complicate a surgical procedure with addition of fundoplication when such an addition risks compromising the very outcome of the surgery (i.e. by re-increasing the LOS pressure reduced by the myotomy)? Also, the fundoplication procedure has not yet been definitely proven to prevent GOR and, in any case, may be unnecessary in the majority of patients. > > > > It is evident that there is an urgent need for in-depth study of this question. Only a randomised controlled trial of Heller myotomy, with and without an anti-reflux procedure, including full patient evaluation by questionnaire, manometry and 24 hour pH studies can provide a satisfactory answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 The surgeon I'm going to is doing the dor fundoplication for me. So I guess it depends on the surgeons preference or opinion. > Question: > Since many patients who have the myotomy surgery also have a fundoplication,(Nissen or Toupet), how does the food slide by the " wrapped " , but wider LES? > > Jan, I may be wrong but I don't think that most people end up with a fundoplication anymore, from what I've seen in this group over the past year or so. Offhand I'd guess that half or less get " wrapped. " > > For those who do have a fundoplication with the Heller Myotomy, the grand majority either have the Toupet or Dor - the Nissen is generally only done for GERD patients, not for those w/ achalasia. Both Toupet and Dor are " partial " fundoplication, with Toupet being a posterior (around the back) wrap and Dor being an anterior (around the front) wrap. Neither of these go all the way around (as the Nissen does) -- I believe the Toupet goes around 270-degrees and the Dor only goes around 180-degrees, instead of the full 360-degrees to go completely around the esophagus. This gives a much looser wrap than the Nissen... I've seen reference to it being called a " floppy fundoplication " even. > > Below is an interesting write-up, excerpted from http://www.tcd.ie/tsmj/2003/achcardia.htm > > This originates in Ireland, so they use the UK-style of spelling esophagus as oesophagus, so it can catch you off guard when you forget about the variation in spelling. LOS in the article is LES to North Americans.... GOR is our GERD, etc. > > As you can see, there is some question whether a fundoplication needs to be done at all (I believe that's why more and more people are now having the Heller Myotomy w/ no wrap at all -- in the past it was assumed to be necessary, but now some docs aren't convinced and they don't do it anymore.) > > But to answer your main question, a PARTIAL wrap isn't as tight as the untreated, clamped-shut LES, so food can indeed go through even without peristalsis. > > Hope that helps a bit! > > Debbi > > > THE CONTROVERSY > > > > In the surgical treatment of achalasia, a balance must be found - there must be a sufficient decrease in oesophageal obstruction to provide symptomatic relief, but an excessive decrease in LOS pressure results in GOR. An anti-reflux procedure is sometimes added to avoid this. Laparoscopic procedures are either combined with a Floppy Toupet Fundoplication attached to the sides of the myotomy or a Dor fundoplication, known as the laparoscopic Heller-Dor fundoplication. There is, nonetheless, considerable debate surrounding the actual therapeutic value of such an addition. > > > > Arguments against an Anti-reflux procedure after oesophageal myotomy: > > > > It is clear that adding a complete fundoplication increases resistance at the GO junction and defeats the objective of the myotomy i.e. to decrease this resistance. There is, however, evidence that even partial fundoplication procedures, e.g. Toupet and Dor techniques, increase LOS resistance and could compromise the effectiveness of the myotomy. Ellis et al. (1984) have achieved excellent relief of dysphagia with Heller myotomy alone, with only 9- 15% of patients having unsatisfactory results.31 > > > > s et al. (1999) studied gastroesophageal reflux in 75 patients who had been treated by myotomy without fundoplication. They discovered that there was only a very weak correlation between patients' perceptions of their GOR (heartburn symptoms), as evaluated by a questionnaire, and objective measurement of reflux by a distal pH sensor.32 This proves that heartburn symptoms are not a reliable indicator of GOR in achalasia patients and should not be used as a justification to perform a fundoplication procedure with myotomy. > > > > Furthermore, the same author found that confirmed pathological acid reflux, present in only 13% of patients, does not conform to the usual Gastro-Oesophageal Reflux Disease (GORD) pattern. Reflux events in achalasia patients occur less frequently, are of a longer duration and happen predominantly when the patient is supine.33 This suggests that it is inadequate clearance of fermented food and/or refluxed acid, rather than true acid reflux, which is responsible for post-myotomy heartburn. This theory is strengthened by the finding, corroborated by Ellis, that the patients most likely to have such symptoms were those with the highest LOS pressures i.e. higher resistance across the GO junction.34 Thus a fundoplication procedure, aimed at increasing this resistance, could potentially worsen heartburn symptoms. Indeed, pathological acid reflux following myotomy with fundoplication has been found by Patti et al.(2001) and by Csendes et al.(1981) in 17% and 19% of patients respectively. This (shows that fundoplication clearly does not fully solve the problem of post-myotomy reflux. Bonavina et al (1992)., meanwhile, achieved a very impressive 8.6% incidence of reflux when myotomy was performed without an anti-reflux procedure.37 > > > > Finally, the risk-benefit ratio of adding an anti-reflux procedure must be considered. Patti et al. noteed a risk of technical problems with a Dor fundoplication and suggest that these may be avoided by skilled surgery and meticulous attention to detail.35 However, surgeons may not perform these procedures with sufficient regularity to ensure this. A simpler procedure plainly reduces the risk of technical hitches. > > > > As previously mentioned, s et al.(2001) report pathological acid reflux in 13% of patients when myotomy is performed without an associated fundoplication.33 Routine addition of an anti-reflux procedure would thus treat 87% of patients needlessly. This is particularly pointless when one considers the fact that medication frequently suffices to control reflux symptoms in this 13%. The dysphagia which results from an insufficiently lowered LOS pressure, meanwhile, requires far more drastic treatment measures, namely pneumatic dilatation or even further surgery. > > > > Arguments in favour of an Anti-reflux procedure after oesophageal myotomy: > > > > Iatrogenic GORD has only recently been given proper consideration and recognition. There are therefore a limited number of studies objectively documenting oesophageal acid exposure after treatment for achalasia. Those that are available reveal some interesting trends (Tables 1 and 2). > > > > Table 1. Postoperative pH studies after transthoracic limited myotomy without fundoplication for the treatment of achalasia > > > > > > > > Table 2. Postoperative pH studies following laparoscopic myotomy and fundoplication for the treatment of achalasia > > > > > > > > Relevant to the " pro-anti-reflux procedure " argument is the fact that reflux-induced stricture after an oesophageal myotomy is a severe problem, and usually requires oesophagectomy for relief of symptoms. > > > > Long-term data stress the need for anti-reflux protection. Malthaner et al. (1994) reported on long-term clinical results in 35 patients with achalasia.22 These patients had undergone primary oesophageal myotomy and Belsey hemifundoplication at Toronto General Hospital. The minimum follow up time was 10 years. Excellent results were found in 95% of patients at 1 year, declining to 68% after 10 years. It was concluded that there was a deterioration of the initially good results after surgical myotomy and hiatal repair, and that most of the deterioration was due to the complication of GOR.38 In another study, Ellis reported his experience with transthoracic short oesophageal myotomy without an anti-reflux procedure. 179 patients were analysed at a mean follow-up of 9 years, ranging from 6 months to 20 years. Overall, 89 % of patients were improved at 9 years post-operatively. Ellis also noted deterioration in good results with time. The fact that his clinical data was similar to findings in the Toronto study suggests the likelihood that reflux played a significant role in his results as well.34 > > > > Another relevant finding of several recent studies is that a post- treatment sphincter pressure of less than 10mmHg is required for long term relief of dysphagia.39,40 This is relevant because it shows that near complete disruption of the sphincter is required to relieve dysphagia in the long term. > > > > In one of the largest studies reported yet, Bonavina et al. (1992) report good to excellent results with transabdominal myotomy and Dor fundoplication. 94% of 198 patients had excellent/good outcomes after a mean follow-up of 5.4 years. A remarkable 81% of patients returned for post-operative 24-hour pH studies, of which only 7 (8.6%) had a positive test result. Oesophageal diameter was significantly decreased post myotomy, as was LOS pressure (40.5 +/- 9.7 to 11.7 +/- 4.7 mmHg).37 > > > > Zaninotto et al. (2000) reported results in 100 patients who underwent a laparoscopic Heller-Dor procedure. 70% of patients reported no dysphagia and 22 % complained of only occasional difficulty swallowing. 7 patients were salvaged by post-operative pneumatic dilatation. Of note, 24-hour oesophageal pH monitoring showed abnormal reflux in only 5 (6.5%) of 63 patients tested.41 > > > > These studies confirm that laparoscopic Heller-Dor fundoplication achieves excellent medium-term results. > > > > Patti et al. (1999) compared the outcome of 30 patients who had undergone laparoscopic myotomy with a Dor anterior fundoplication to that of 30 patients who had undergone thoracoscopic myotomy without anti-reflux repair. Dysphagia was well-relieved by both the laparoscopic and thoracoscopic groups (77% and 70% success rates respectively). 20% of patients in the group who did not have a fundoplication had a positive post-operative 24-hour pH study result compared to only 3% following the Heller-Dor procedure.30 > > > > CONCLUSION > > > > GOR is uncommon in achalasia patients who have not undergone surgery and most evidence suggests that pH proved-reflux is minimised by the addition of a partial fundoplication to a myotomy. Studies show that abdominal myotomy combined with fundoplication provides excellent symptomatic outcomes in both the short- and the long-term in patients with achalasia. Perhaps it is better to perform a partial fundoplication with a myotomy in a single operation, and thereby reduce the risk of reflux, than to risk post-operative reflux, its complications and with them, further radical surgery. > > > > On the other hand, why complicate a surgical procedure with addition of fundoplication when such an addition risks compromising the very outcome of the surgery (i.e. by re-increasing the LOS pressure reduced by the myotomy)? Also, the fundoplication procedure has not yet been definitely proven to prevent GOR and, in any case, may be unnecessary in the majority of patients. > > > > It is evident that there is an urgent need for in-depth study of this question. Only a randomised controlled trial of Heller myotomy, with and without an anti-reflux procedure, including full patient evaluation by questionnaire, manometry and 24 hour pH studies can provide a satisfactory answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 I am very happy with my dor fundoplication. I had reflux for about 2 months after my surgery, took prilosec for those 2 months and haven’t had a problem since. I can lay flat on my back and not have to worry about any reflux. It’s wonderful! I’m a very satisfied myotomical work of art! :-) LOL Best wishes , and on your myotomies! Sandi in No CA Holt- Re: surgery and esophageal peristalsis The surgeon I'm going to is doing the dor fundoplication for me. So I guess it depends on the surgeons preference or opinion. > Question: > Since many patients who have the myotomy surgery also have a fundoplication,(Nissen or Toupet), how does the food slide by the " wrapped " , but wider LES? > > Jan, I may be wrong but I don't think that most people end up with a fundoplication anymore, from what I've seen in this group over the past year or so. Offhand I'd guess that half or less get " wrapped. " > > For those who do have a fundoplication with the Heller Myotomy, the grand majority either have the Toupet or Dor - the Nissen is generally only done for GERD patients, not for those w/ achalasia. Both Toupet and Dor are " partial " fundoplication, with Toupet being a posterior (around the back) wrap and Dor being an anterior (around the front) wrap. Neither of these go all the way around (as the Nissen does) -- I believe the Toupet goes around 270-degrees and the Dor only goes around 180-degrees, instead of the full 360-degrees to go completely around the esophagus. This gives a much looser wrap than the Nissen... I've seen reference to it being called a " floppy fundoplication " even. > > Below is an interesting write-up, excerpted from http://www.tcd.ie/tsmj/2003/achcardia.htm > > This originates in Ireland, so they use the UK-style of spelling esophagus as oesophagus, so it can catch you off guard when you forget about the variation in spelling. LOS in the article is LES to North Americans.... GOR is our GERD, etc. > > As you can see, there is some question whether a fundoplication needs to be done at all (I believe that's why more and more people are now having the Heller Myotomy w/ no wrap at all -- in the past it was assumed to be necessary, but now some docs aren't convinced and they don't do it anymore.) > > But to answer your main question, a PARTIAL wrap isn't as tight as the untreated, clamped-shut LES, so food can indeed go through even without peristalsis. > > Hope that helps a bit! > > Debbi > > > THE CONTROVERSY > > > > In the surgical treatment of achalasia, a balance must be found - there must be a sufficient decrease in oesophageal obstruction to provide symptomatic relief, but an excessive decrease in LOS pressure results in GOR. An anti-reflux procedure is sometimes added to avoid this. Laparoscopic procedures are either combined with a Floppy Toupet Fundoplication attached to the sides of the myotomy or a Dor fundoplication, known as the laparoscopic Heller-Dor fundoplication. There is, nonetheless, considerable debate surrounding the actual therapeutic value of such an addition. > > > > Arguments against an Anti-reflux procedure after oesophageal myotomy: > > > > It is clear that adding a complete fundoplication increases resistance at the GO junction and defeats the objective of the myotomy i.e. to decrease this resistance. There is, however, evidence that even partial fundoplication procedures, e.g. Toupet and Dor techniques, increase LOS resistance and could compromise the effectiveness of the myotomy. Ellis et al. (1984) have achieved excellent relief of dysphagia with Heller myotomy alone, with only 9- 15% of patients having unsatisfactory results.31 > > > > s et al. (1999) studied gastroesophageal reflux in 75 patients who had been treated by myotomy without fundoplication. They discovered that there was only a very weak correlation between patients' perceptions of their GOR (heartburn symptoms), as evaluated by a questionnaire, and objective measurement of reflux by a distal pH sensor.32 This proves that heartburn symptoms are not a reliable indicator of GOR in achalasia patients and should not be used as a justification to perform a fundoplication procedure with myotomy. > > > > Furthermore, the same author found that confirmed pathological acid reflux, present in only 13% of patients, does not conform to the usual Gastro-Oesophageal Reflux Disease (GORD) pattern. Reflux events in achalasia patients occur less frequently, are of a longer duration and happen predominantly when the patient is supine.33 This suggests that it is inadequate clearance of fermented food and/or refluxed acid, rather than true acid reflux, which is responsible for post-myotomy heartburn. This theory is strengthened by the finding, corroborated by Ellis, that the patients most likely to have such symptoms were those with the highest LOS pressures i.e. higher resistance across the GO junction.34 Thus a fundoplication procedure, aimed at increasing this resistance, could potentially worsen heartburn symptoms. Indeed, pathological acid reflux following myotomy with fundoplication has been found by Patti et al.(2001) and by Csendes et al.(1981) in 17% and 19% of patients respectively. This (shows that fundoplication clearly does not fully solve the problem of post-myotomy reflux. Bonavina et al (1992)., meanwhile, achieved a very impressive 8.6% incidence of reflux when myotomy was performed without an anti-reflux procedure.37 > > > > Finally, the risk-benefit ratio of adding an anti-reflux procedure must be considered. Patti et al. noteed a risk of technical problems with a Dor fundoplication and suggest that these may be avoided by skilled surgery and meticulous attention to detail.35 However, surgeons may not perform these procedures with sufficient regularity to ensure this. A simpler procedure plainly reduces the risk of technical hitches. > > > > As previously mentioned, s et al.(2001) report pathological acid reflux in 13% of patients when myotomy is performed without an associated fundoplication.33 Routine addition of an anti-reflux procedure would thus treat 87% of patients needlessly. This is particularly pointless when one considers the fact that medication frequently suffices to control reflux symptoms in this 13%. The dysphagia which results from an insufficiently lowered LOS pressure, meanwhile, requires far more drastic treatment measures, namely pneumatic dilatation or even further surgery. > > > > Arguments in favour of an Anti-reflux procedure after oesophageal myotomy: > > > > Iatrogenic GORD has only recently been given proper consideration and recognition. There are therefore a limited number of studies objectively documenting oesophageal acid exposure after treatment for achalasia. Those that are available reveal some interesting trends (Tables 1 and 2). > > > > Table 1. Postoperative pH studies after transthoracic limited myotomy without fundoplication for the treatment of achalasia > > > > > > > > Table 2. Postoperative pH studies following laparoscopic myotomy and fundoplication for the treatment of achalasia > > > > > > > > Relevant to the " pro-anti-reflux procedure " argument is the fact that reflux-induced stricture after an oesophageal myotomy is a severe problem, and usually requires oesophagectomy for relief of symptoms. > > > > Long-term data stress the need for anti-reflux protection. Malthaner et al. (1994) reported on long-term clinical results in 35 patients with achalasia.22 These patients had undergone primary oesophageal myotomy and Belsey hemifundoplication at Toronto General Hospital. The minimum follow up time was 10 years. Excellent results were found in 95% of patients at 1 year, declining to 68% after 10 years. It was concluded that there was a deterioration of the initially good results after surgical myotomy and hiatal repair, and that most of the deterioration was due to the complication of GOR.38 In another study, Ellis reported his experience with transthoracic short oesophageal myotomy without an anti-reflux procedure. 179 patients were analysed at a mean follow-up of 9 years, ranging from 6 months to 20 years. Overall, 89 % of patients were improved at 9 years post-operatively. Ellis also noted deterioration in good results with time. The fact that his clinical data was similar to findings in the Toronto study suggests the likelihood that reflux played a significant role in his results as well.34 > > > > Another relevant finding of several recent studies is that a post- treatment sphincter pressure of less than 10mmHg is required for long term relief of dysphagia.39,40 This is relevant because it shows that near complete disruption of the sphincter is required to relieve dysphagia in the long term. > > > > In one of the largest studies reported yet, Bonavina et al. (1992) report good to excellent results with transabdominal myotomy and Dor fundoplication. 94% of 198 patients had excellent/good outcomes after a mean follow-up of 5.4 years. A remarkable 81% of patients returned for post-operative 24-hour pH studies, of which only 7 (8.6%) had a positive test result. Oesophageal diameter was significantly decreased post myotomy, as was LOS pressure (40.5 +/- 9.7 to 11.7 +/- 4.7 mmHg).37 > > > > Zaninotto et al. (2000) reported results in 100 patients who underwent a laparoscopic Heller-Dor procedure. 70% of patients reported no dysphagia and 22 % complained of only occasional difficulty swallowing. 7 patients were salvaged by post-operative pneumatic dilatation. Of note, 24-hour oesophageal pH monitoring showed abnormal reflux in only 5 (6.5%) of 63 patients tested.41 > > > > These studies confirm that laparoscopic Heller-Dor fundoplication achieves excellent medium-term results. > > > > Patti et al. (1999) compared the outcome of 30 patients who had undergone laparoscopic myotomy with a Dor anterior fundoplication to that of 30 patients who had undergone thoracoscopic myotomy without anti-reflux repair. Dysphagia was well-relieved by both the laparoscopic and thoracoscopic groups (77% and 70% success rates respectively). 20% of patients in the group who did not have a fundoplication had a positive post-operative 24-hour pH study result compared to only 3% following the Heller-Dor procedure.30 > > > > CONCLUSION > > > > GOR is uncommon in achalasia patients who have not undergone surgery and most evidence suggests that pH proved-reflux is minimised by the addition of a partial fundoplication to a myotomy. Studies show that abdominal myotomy combined with fundoplication provides excellent symptomatic outcomes in both the short- and the long-term in patients with achalasia. Perhaps it is better to perform a partial fundoplication with a myotomy in a single operation, and thereby reduce the risk of reflux, than to risk post-operative reflux, its complications and with them, further radical surgery. > > > > On the other hand, why complicate a surgical procedure with addition of fundoplication when such an addition risks compromising the very outcome of the surgery (i.e. by re-increasing the LOS pressure reduced by the myotomy)? Also, the fundoplication procedure has not yet been definitely proven to prevent GOR and, in any case, may be unnecessary in the majority of patients. > > > > It is evident that there is an urgent need for in-depth study of this question. Only a randomised controlled trial of Heller myotomy, with and without an anti-reflux procedure, including full patient evaluation by questionnaire, manometry and 24 hour pH studies can provide a satisfactory answer. 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Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Debbi, Wow, thanks for a very informative and helpful post!! I'm continually impressed by the helpfulness and knowledge base of the folks here. Mahalo, (in Honolulu) Re: surgery and esophageal peristalsis wrote:> As some posts are pointing> out, we may have different situations. I guess the only thing I "know" is> that sometimes it feels as though I have parrastollisis (sp?) and> sometimes I don't. When I see my new MD I'll ask for an oppinion.Just wanted to clear up something. In many of us in this group, the"peristaltic contractions" seem to vary. I've always been able to see mymanometry (I've had maybe 6-10 in the past decade.... kinda lost count!)and I've always discussed it with the technician and/or the physician. Itwas very obvious from looking at my manometry what was happening in myesophagus when I swallowed.For the purposes of this (over-simplified) illustration, think of the"regions" of an esophagus labeled A, B, C, and D, with A being closest tothe top and D being the LES. In a normal person, when they first swallowfood, they'll get a contraction at the top (A), then further down (,then further down © and a little more (D) and finally the LES will openand the food will pass into the stomach.In just one 45-minute session, I can have a swallow where ABCD allcontract simultaneously. Another swallow will have A and C together, butno activity by B and D. Sometimes they'll contract in a random pattern,maybe something like A B D B C A D B D B C B C A D B (this one is reallyneat to watch on video from fluoroscopy (video x-rays)... I call it the"ping-pong" effect, b/c you can see the barium bouncing up and down, backand forth.) Sometimes no regions contract at all, or they do enough tomake a teeny bump on the manometry, but nothing like the big MOUNTAIN bumpyou'd get from a normal person. And sometimes I'll get a funkycontraction when I wasn't even swallowing.For people who say they have "no peristalsis" I think it would be good toclarify what you mean, b/c not everyone interprets that the same. I thinkfor the purposes of this discussion, it's being interpreted to mean NOcontractions at all, and it would help if everyone could clarify what wemean so we're all on the same page.Technically, peristalsis is defined as "successive waves of involuntarycontraction passing along the walls of a hollow muscular structure (as theesophagus or intestine) and forcing the contents onward" (according toMerriam-Webster.) By definition, then, "aperistalsis" is not the completeabsence of ANY contractions, but rather the absence of SUCCESSIVE WAVES ofcontraction (as in A then B then C then D.)My "ping pong" contractions are, indeed, contractions, and they do movethe bolus (swallowed food/liquid) around inside my esophagus, but they are*not* defined as PERISTALTIC contractions, because they don't occur in theA B C D order like they are supposed to, and they don't properly propelthe food along my esophagus towards the end goal of having the food reachthe stomach.We also have peristaltic contractions throughout our GI tract... that'swhat propels the food through the small and large intestines as it's beingdigested.Debbi in Michigan, also cold but not nearly as cold as in Thunder Bay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 I found this site that has I think a good explanation of the fundoplication and if you scroll down you can see a diagram of it. http://depts.washington.edu/cves/lapnis.html F --- Original Message ----- From: Dr. L. achalasia Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 5:17 PM Subject: Re: surgery and esophageal peristalsis Debbi, Wow, thanks for a very informative and helpful post!! I'm continually impressed by the helpfulness and knowledge base of the folks here. Mahalo, (in Honolulu) Re: surgery and esophageal peristalsis wrote:> As some posts are pointing> out, we may have different situations. I guess the only thing I "know" is> that sometimes it feels as though I have parrastollisis (sp?) and> sometimes I don't. When I see my new MD I'll ask for an oppinion.Just wanted to clear up something. In many of us in this group, the"peristaltic contractions" seem to vary. I've always been able to see mymanometry (I've had maybe 6-10 in the past decade.... kinda lost count!)and I've always discussed it with the technician and/or the physician. Itwas very obvious from looking at my manometry what was happening in myesophagus when I swallowed.For the purposes of this (over-simplified) illustration, think of the"regions" of an esophagus labeled A, B, C, and D, with A being closest tothe top and D being the LES. In a normal person, when they first swallowfood, they'll get a contraction at the top (A), then further down (,then further down © and a little more (D) and finally the LES will openand the food will pass into the stomach.In just one 45-minute session, I can have a swallow where ABCD allcontract simultaneously. Another swallow will have A and C together, butno activity by B and D. Sometimes they'll contract in a random pattern,maybe something like A B D B C A D B D B C B C A D B (this one is reallyneat to watch on video from fluoroscopy (video x-rays)... I call it the"ping-pong" effect, b/c you can see the barium bouncing up and down, backand forth.) Sometimes no regions contract at all, or they do enough tomake a teeny bump on the manometry, but nothing like the big MOUNTAIN bumpyou'd get from a normal person. And sometimes I'll get a funkycontraction when I wasn't even swallowing.For people who say they have "no peristalsis" I think it would be good toclarify what you mean, b/c not everyone interprets that the same. I thinkfor the purposes of this discussion, it's being interpreted to mean NOcontractions at all, and it would help if everyone could clarify what wemean so we're all on the same page.Technically, peristalsis is defined as "successive waves of involuntarycontraction passing along the walls of a hollow muscular structure (as theesophagus or intestine) and forcing the contents onward" (according toMerriam-Webster.) By definition, then, "aperistalsis" is not the completeabsence of ANY contractions, but rather the absence of SUCCESSIVE WAVES ofcontraction (as in A then B then C then D.)My "ping pong" contractions are, indeed, contractions, and they do movethe bolus (swallowed food/liquid) around inside my esophagus, but they are*not* defined as PERISTALTIC contractions, because they don't occur in theA B C D order like they are supposed to, and they don't properly propelthe food along my esophagus towards the end goal of having the food reachthe stomach.We also have peristaltic contractions throughout our GI tract... that'swhat propels the food through the small and large intestines as it's beingdigested.Debbi in Michigan, also cold but not nearly as cold as in Thunder Bay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 , Thank you so much that was a great explanation of the procedure! Jenifer > > As some posts are pointing > > out, we may have different situations. I guess the only thing I " know " is > > that sometimes it feels as though I have parrastollisis (sp?) and > > sometimes I don't. When I see my new MD I'll ask for an oppinion. > > Just wanted to clear up something. In many of us in this group, the > " peristaltic contractions " seem to vary. I've always been able to see my > manometry (I've had maybe 6-10 in the past decade.... kinda lost count!) > and I've always discussed it with the technician and/or the physician. It > was very obvious from looking at my manometry what was happening in my > esophagus when I swallowed. > > For the purposes of this (over-simplified) illustration, think of the > " regions " of an esophagus labeled A, B, C, and D, with A being closest to > the top and D being the LES. In a normal person, when they first swallow > food, they'll get a contraction at the top (A), then further down (, > then further down © and a little more (D) and finally the LES will open > and the food will pass into the stomach. > > In just one 45-minute session, I can have a swallow where ABCD all > contract simultaneously. Another swallow will have A and C together, but > no activity by B and D. Sometimes they'll contract in a random pattern, > maybe something like A B D B C A D B D B C B C A D B (this one is really > neat to watch on video from fluoroscopy (video x-rays)... I call it the > " ping-pong " effect, b/c you can see the barium bouncing up and down, back > and forth.) Sometimes no regions contract at all, or they do enough to > make a teeny bump on the manometry, but nothing like the big MOUNTAIN bump > you'd get from a normal person. And sometimes I'll get a funky > contraction when I wasn't even swallowing. > > For people who say they have " no peristalsis " I think it would be good to > clarify what you mean, b/c not everyone interprets that the same. I think > for the purposes of this discussion, it's being interpreted to mean NO > contractions at all, and it would help if everyone could clarify what we > mean so we're all on the same page. > > Technically, peristalsis is defined as " successive waves of involuntary > contraction passing along the walls of a hollow muscular structure (as the > esophagus or intestine) and forcing the contents onward " (according to > Merriam-Webster.) By definition, then, " aperistalsis " is not the complete > absence of ANY contractions, but rather the absence of SUCCESSIVE WAVES of > contraction (as in A then B then C then D.) > > My " ping pong " contractions are, indeed, contractions, and they do move > the bolus (swallowed food/liquid) around inside my esophagus, but they are > *not* defined as PERISTALTIC contractions, because they don't occur in the > A B C D order like they are supposed to, and they don't properly propel > the food along my esophagus towards the end goal of having the food reach > the stomach. > > We also have peristaltic contractions throughout our GI tract... that's > what propels the food through the small and large intestines as it's being > digested. > > Debbi in Michigan, also cold but not nearly as cold as in Thunder Bay! > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Sandi Wrote: > I'm a very satisfied myotomical work of art! :-) LOL Oh, Sandi, what a phrase!!!! Thanks for the laugh! I had an " episode " tonight and really needed a chuckle. As the oldsters here know, I'm " fairly highly functional " after a couple of dilations, but the symptoms have been slowly but surely creeping back. (note: slightly graphic regurge account follows... skip it if you're not in the mood -- I just feel like venting and only you guys here know what it's REALLY like) Well, tonight at dinner (hubby made baked spaghetti), I wasn't paying close attention. Hubby and I were brainstorming on ways to get his company a piece of a HUGE potential client, with the hurdle being the fact that the client he's wanting to snag is also in direct competition with his current biggest client (more than competition, even....the potential client is actively trying to invade the other's territory and run them out of this market, etc.) So we're bouncing ideas back and forth, and I'm monitoring my son's activity (preschooler w/ spaghetti and meatballs can get " interesting " from time to time!), and I'm just not paying attention, and all of a sudden WHAMMO! I managed to get my hand over my mouth and nose, so at least I didn't regurge it all over the table during the meal (which of course meant my sinuses got it.... MAN I hate that!), but I of course did that frantic dash to the sink (we eat in the kitchen, so I'm only a few feet from my son as I'm bringing up tons of spaghetti in the sink.) I know in the grand scheme of things I'm in a LOT better shape than some of the members here -- this was only the second time in the past year that I had an uncontrollable hurling. Normally I can do the " stop... breathe... relax... breathe... relax " thing until it finally passes through to the stomach. The last time I actually had an uncontrollable regurge was maybe six months ago, give or take a few months. But this was the first time my son (, who will be 4yo on Saturday -- Happy Birthday to Chet's Myotomy this week too!) had ever witnessed an " episode " like that. , I instantly thought of you and Chet and the kids and how Chet's problems affected them... I don't want to put through all of that!!!! He's only a preschooler, but he's very observant and very empathetic. My husband travels a lot with his job, and 's an only child, so he and I are pretty close and " in tune " with each other. I'm due for my second annual check at TCC in three months (ooh, I'd better call and schedule that -- maybe this episode was my " reminder " !) Last year Dr. Richter said I needed to get to that " really bad off " point again before they would do the surgery, and he defined " really bad off " as regurgitating every day. I'll be really interested in seeing if my esophagus has stretched any this year -- I couldn't believe how much spaghetti was in there!!!! (sorry, I know that's gross!) I just don't end up regurging that much anymore, and the volume caught me by surprise, I guess. *sigh* If you made it this long, thanks for listening! I love that there's a place where others know what we go through. We've got a great group here! I guess I learned two things tonight.... PAY ATTENTION when you're eating (leave brainstorming for AFTER the meal!), and make your follow-up appt SOON before Dr. Richter's schedule fills up for April! Debbi in Michigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 > Debbi, > > Wow, thanks for a very informative and helpful post!! I'm continually > impressed by the helpfulness and knowledge base of the folks here. > > Mahalo, > > (in Honolulu) You're very welcome, ! There's a HECK of a lot more info out there now than the last time you looked, 20+ years ago, huh? ) I can't believe how much more is available just from 1996 to now.... where was this group back then!?!?!? Debbi, who agrees that this is a pretty awesome group of people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Hi Debbi; I can't tell you how many times I have apologized to my family for racing to the sink, knowing I would never make it to the bathroom. It's midnight and I have an early morning. 5 kids right now! So busy! I feel for you, believe me. Right away I knew you were stressed out! It always makes everything worse. My husband is "nagging" It's midnight. Better luck tomorrow. . -- RE: Re: surgery and esophageal peristalsis Sandi Wrote:> I'm a very satisfied myotomical work of art! :-) LOLOh, Sandi, what a phrase!!!!Thanks for the laugh!I had an "episode" tonight and really needed a chuckle. As the oldstershere know, I'm "fairly highly functional" after a couple of dilations, butthe symptoms have been slowly but surely creeping back.(note: slightly graphic regurge account follows... skip it if you're notin the mood -- I just feel like venting and only you guys here know whatit's REALLY like)Well, tonight at dinner (hubby made baked spaghetti), I wasn't payingclose attention. Hubby and I were brainstorming on ways to get hiscompany a piece of a HUGE potential client, with the hurdle being the factthat the client he's wanting to snag is also in direct competition withhis current biggest client (more than competition, even....the potentialclient is actively trying to invade the other's territory and run them outof this market, etc.)So we're bouncing ideas back and forth, and I'm monitoring my son'sactivity (preschooler w/ spaghetti and meatballs can get "interesting"from time to time!), and I'm just not paying attention, and all of asudden WHAMMO! I managed to get my hand over my mouth and nose, so atleast I didn't regurge it all over the table during the meal (which ofcourse meant my sinuses got it.... MAN I hate that!), but I of course didthat frantic dash to the sink (we eat in the kitchen, so I'm only a fewfeet from my son as I'm bringing up tons of spaghetti in the sink.)I know in the grand scheme of things I'm in a LOT better shape than someof the members here -- this was only the second time in the past year thatI had an uncontrollable hurling. Normally I can do the "stop...breathe... relax... breathe... relax" thing until it finally passesthrough to the stomach. The last time I actually had an uncontrollableregurge was maybe six months ago, give or take a few months.But this was the first time my son (, who will be 4yo on Saturday-- Happy Birthday to Chet's Myotomy this week too!) had ever witnessed an"episode" like that. , I instantly thought of you and Chet and thekids and how Chet's problems affected them... I don't want to put through all of that!!!! He's only a preschooler, but he's very observantand very empathetic. My husband travels a lot with his job, and 'san only child, so he and I are pretty close and "in tune" with each other.I'm due for my second annual check at TCC in three months (ooh, I'd bettercall and schedule that -- maybe this episode was my "reminder"!) Lastyear Dr. Richter said I needed to get to that "really bad off" point againbefore they would do the surgery, and he defined "really bad off" asregurgitating every day. I'll be really interested in seeing if myesophagus has stretched any this year -- I couldn't believe how muchspaghetti was in there!!!! (sorry, I know that's gross!) I just don'tend up regurging that much anymore, and the volume caught me by surprise,I guess.*sigh* If you made it this long, thanks for listening! I love thatthere's a place where others know what we go through. We've got a greatgroup here!I guess I learned two things tonight.... PAY ATTENTION when you're eating(leave brainstorming for AFTER the meal!), and make your follow-up apptSOON before Dr. Richter's schedule fills up for April!Debbi in Michigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Debbi, That usually only happens to me when someone makes me laugh. I hate it when people make me laugh when I’m eating because eating takes so much concentration! I’ll end up choking and aspirating. That one time that I was talking about a few days ago that I’ll never forget, (the one that I felt the food in my stomach for the first time in a very long time), I was eating spaghetti! It felt sooooo good in my stomach. This was back in the old days, pre-myotomy, when one day my LES just decided to open up of it’s own accord. I have the most enjoyable time eating spaghetti now and it always brings back such good memories for me. Sorry you had such a bad experience with it tonight. Spaghetti may be one of the best feeling foods going down, but it’s got to be one of the WORST foods to gurge back up! YUUUUUCK! Hope tomorrow is better??? Or maybe you’re hoping for the gurging to start back up every day so you can have surgery??? Either way, take care and have a good night! Sandi the Satisfied (myotomically speaking, that is) in No CA ;-) (I can’t believe I just wrote that…so you all better laugh!) Holt- RE: Re: surgery and esophageal peristalsis Sandi Wrote: > I'm a very satisfied myotomical work of art! :-) LOL Oh, Sandi, what a phrase!!!! Thanks for the laugh! I had an " episode " tonight and really needed a chuckle. As the oldsters here know, I'm " fairly highly functional " after a couple of dilations, but the symptoms have been slowly but surely creeping back. (note: slightly graphic regurge account follows... skip it if you're not in the mood -- I just feel like venting and only you guys here know what it's REALLY like) Well, tonight at dinner (hubby made baked spaghetti), I wasn't paying close attention. Hubby and I were brainstorming on ways to get his company a piece of a HUGE potential client, with the hurdle being the fact that the client he's wanting to snag is also in direct competition with his current biggest client (more than competition, even....the potential client is actively trying to invade the other's territory and run them out of this market, etc.) So we're bouncing ideas back and forth, and I'm monitoring my son's activity (preschooler w/ spaghetti and meatballs can get " interesting " from time to time!), and I'm just not paying attention, and all of a sudden WHAMMO! I managed to get my hand over my mouth and nose, so at least I didn't regurge it all over the table during the meal (which of course meant my sinuses got it.... MAN I hate that!), but I of course did that frantic dash to the sink (we eat in the kitchen, so I'm only a few feet from my son as I'm bringing up tons of spaghetti in the sink.) I know in the grand scheme of things I'm in a LOT better shape than some of the members here -- this was only the second time in the past year that I had an uncontrollable hurling. Normally I can do the " stop... breathe... relax... breathe... relax " thing until it finally passes through to the stomach. The last time I actually had an uncontrollable regurge was maybe six months ago, give or take a few months. But this was the first time my son (, who will be 4yo on Saturday -- Happy Birthday to Chet's Myotomy this week too!) had ever witnessed an " episode " like that. , I instantly thought of you and Chet and the kids and how Chet's problems affected them... I don't want to put through all of that!!!! He's only a preschooler, but he's very observant and very empathetic. My husband travels a lot with his job, and 's an only child, so he and I are pretty close and " in tune " with each other. I'm due for my second annual check at TCC in three months (ooh, I'd better call and schedule that -- maybe this episode was my " reminder " !) Last year Dr. Richter said I needed to get to that " really bad off " point again before they would do the surgery, and he defined " really bad off " as regurgitating every day. I'll be really interested in seeing if my esophagus has stretched any this year -- I couldn't believe how much spaghetti was in there!!!! (sorry, I know that's gross!) I just don't end up regurging that much anymore, and the volume caught me by surprise, I guess. *sigh* If you made it this long, thanks for listening! I love that there's a place where others know what we go through. We've got a great group here! I guess I learned two things tonight.... PAY ATTENTION when you're eating (leave brainstorming for AFTER the meal!), and make your follow-up appt SOON before Dr. Richter's schedule fills up for April! Debbi in Michigan Groups Links · To visit your group on the web, go to: achalasia/ · Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Debbi Heiser wrote: >...But this was the first time my son ... had ever witnessed an > " episode " like that. ... I can see where this would be the worst part of the experience. I find these events more like just an annoyance when alone. When there are people, that care about me, with me when these things happen I want to pluck the event from their minds. I return to the table and go on as if that was something that everyone does, but a little pain in the soul remains. notan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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