Inclusion

[Guest guest]

At 07:47 PM 1/6/02 -0800, you wrote:

>The teacher is the key--just show up at school often, canvus other parents

>who have been involved with mainstreaming/inclusion and what teachers are

>good or bad.

Let me just add one thing that I'm very adamant about, but never seem to

add to these discussions (because the focus is include or not to include):

EDUCATION is only as good as the people serving as teachers. Andy's special

education classes have STUNK except one. And the one that didn't was good

only because the teacher was good. Period. This year STINKS because of the

special educaiton teacher. Sometimes it's the consultants too, but this one

has good consultants--but she won't do what they ask.

Anyway.

No classroom or method is the panacea, be it inclusion or segregation or

somewhere in between. They can all be wonderful; they can all stink.

Talented people who learn from your individual child and differentiate

instruction and environment to promote learning and growth are what make it

work. The answers of how to do that lie within the child.

Just my opinion......

j

[Guest guest]

Joan,

What do you mean by " consultants " ? OT<PT< speech?

& Garry, parents of (11 ds), (10 ds), JJ (8

ds/autism/celiac), (7 ds/ADHD/Celiac), and Esther (4 ds). All adopted.

----------

>From: Joan Guthrie Medlen <jmedlen@...>

>

>Subject: Re: Inclusion

>Date: Sun, Jan 6, 2002, 7:55 PM

>

>At 07:47 PM 1/6/02 -0800, you wrote:

>>The teacher is the key--just show up at school often, canvus other parents

>>who have been involved with mainstreaming/inclusion and what teachers are

>>good or bad.

>

>Let me just add one thing that I'm very adamant about, but never seem to

>add to these discussions (because the focus is include or not to include):

>

>EDUCATION is only as good as the people serving as teachers. Andy's special

>education classes have STUNK except one. And the one that didn't was good

>only because the teacher was good. Period. This year STINKS because of the

>special educaiton teacher. Sometimes it's the consultants too, but this one

>has good consultants--but she won't do what they ask.

>

>Anyway.

>

>No classroom or method is the panacea, be it inclusion or segregation or

>somewhere in between. They can all be wonderful; they can all stink.

>

>Talented people who learn from your individual child and differentiate

>instruction and environment to promote learning and growth are what make it

>work. The answers of how to do that lie within the child.

>

>Just my opinion......

>

>j

>

>

>--------------------------------------------------

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>

[Guest guest]

At 07:57 PM 1/6/02 -0800, you wrote:

>Joan,

>What do you mean by " consultants " ? OT<PT< speech?

Speech, AAC, Assistive Technology, autism consultant, supported ed

consultant.......he's got so many and the only " dog " of the group is the

supported ed person, who we can work around.

Andy's situation has deteriorated only because of this sped teacher--not

his behavior. He's actually doing OK getting over some major changes and

milestones. His Ed assistants (there are two who switch off during the day)

really *get it* and do well with him. They actually are designing his

education program....not the teacher. She has said in staff meetings that

she is NOT teaching Andy. How can a teacher do that?

It's a long story that I don't want to get into. It's one of those times

when you just don't know who's reading; and I do believe the supervisors

and such are working *hard* to fix things *fast*. There's a lot more than

just Andy going on here. And...there's more fault than the teacher, but

she's the root of it. The consultants have a job to do and they should make

sure each child's program is good.

j

[Guest guest]

Joan,

It would be wonderful if our classes had consultants! The is an autism

person--correct that-there was an autism person. JJ does not get speech

anymore-hasn't spoken in 5 years so why continue(there idea not mine).

Speech person does make him icons for PECS, that's all. He does have

snesory intergration--I need to check on that one. School psych stands at

the door and won't be in the room with any of the spec ed kids. He is 3

years behind on Psych reports. Not mine though--LOL.

At this point the school knows that supervision in JJ's class is a problem.

In the last week of school we had the licking blood incident, JJ got bit,

and he bit some one. They are aware of the problem and are addressing it.

OH, OT--my adop;tion social worker dau. is a nurse at Providence Hospital in

Portland. Which hospital are you at.? She was telling me about the

wonderful museums there for kids. Sounds like a future trip.

& Garry, parents of (11 ds), (10 ds), JJ (8

ds/autism/celiac), (7 ds/ADHD/Celiac), and Esther (4 ds). All adopted.

----------

>From: Joan Guthrie Medlen <jmedlen@...>

>

>Subject: Re: Inclusion

>Date: Sun, Jan 6, 2002, 8:06 PM

>

>At 07:57 PM 1/6/02 -0800, you wrote:

>>Joan,

>>What do you mean by " consultants " ? OT<PT< speech?

>

>Speech, AAC, Assistive Technology, autism consultant, supported ed

>consultant.......he's got so many and the only " dog " of the group is the

>supported ed person, who we can work around.

>

>Andy's situation has deteriorated only because of this sped teacher--not

>his behavior. He's actually doing OK getting over some major changes and

>milestones. His Ed assistants (there are two who switch off during the day)

>really *get it* and do well with him. They actually are designing his

>education program....not the teacher. She has said in staff meetings that

>she is NOT teaching Andy. How can a teacher do that?

>

>It's a long story that I don't want to get into. It's one of those times

>when you just don't know who's reading; and I do believe the supervisors

>and such are working *hard* to fix things *fast*. There's a lot more than

>just Andy going on here. And...there's more fault than the teacher, but

>she's the root of it. The consultants have a job to do and they should make

>sure each child's program is good.

>

>j

>

>

>--------------------------------------------------

>Checkout our homepage for information, bookmarks, and photos of

>our kids. Share favorite bookmarks, ideas, and other information by

>including them. Don't forget, messages are a permanent record of the

>archives for our list.

>--------------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

At 08:18 PM 1/6/02 -0800, you wrote:

>OH, OT--my adop;tion social worker dau. is a nurse at Providence Hospital in

>Portland. Which hospital are you at.? She was telling me about the

>wonderful museums there for kids. Sounds like a future trip.

Oh.....I bet she went to the new children's museum--well, not new, but it

has a new building. Much more spacious. It's always been fun, but Andy's a

little old. (BIG). IT's near the zoo, another favorite place of ours--until

they put in this new water thing for the otter.........

I used to do diabetes classes for the providence health system. My last

hospital job was with Providence Newberg, though I had meetings at portland

providence which is where she is, I bet. It's a big city. too many

dietitians per square inch and too many hospitals!

If you come up, do let me know.

Joan

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/6/02 11:06:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,

jmedlen@... writes:

> She has said in staff meetings that

> she is NOT teaching Andy. How can a teacher do that?

>

>

I know Joan. It's stunning!!! Wouldn't you think that was grounds for

being fired???? Sheesh!!!!

Donna

[Guest guest]

<<httTalented people who learn from your individual child and differentiate

instruction and environment to promote learning and growth are what make it

work. The answers of how to do that lie within the child.

Just my opinion......

j>>

<<Joan,

What do you mean by " consultants " ? OT<PT< speech?

>>

veryinsightful post, Joan. I find that lists such as your, provide very

valuable information that I wouldn't have access to otherwise. For

instance...I read the other day about behaviors being put into 3

piles...ones we can ignore, ones that we can't tolerate and 3rd, behaviors

that are not safe. I like visualization and it helps me (and others) to

" sort " like laundry, whites, colors..etc. Anyway I wrote this to Ted's

special education teacher and she liked it!

About consultants...Ted's school has some from Florida. They were very

good. They gave a meeting after they had spent several weeks in the

classrooms and told us (parents) about it. It is more than a behavior type

consult...It encompasses everything to get the best overall practices. They

come back and are also available for consult. They recently had a workshop

for parents ans some expressed learning from them also.

Gail

http://www.emandan.freeserve.co.uk/ted.htm

[Guest guest]

i agree inclusion is a hot topic on both ends, nathan

has been fully integrated since preschool, until this

year, now he is in our new spec. ed classroom,(us

parents of disabled kids had been asking for one for

about 2years) for most all academics, and then in all

specials such as p.e., music, art, computer, guidance

etc with his class, he even still has a reg. ed

classroom teacher and is in his reg. ed. class dly in

th morning for attendance and activity, then again at

the end of day for a good 40min for reading time.

Integration more than served its purpose for nathan in

th eearly elementry years, but now his peers are way

ahead of him and he wasnt learning anything in the reg

ed classroom really, and yet all his peers love him

and are eager to assist, play and even hlep teach him.

With our new teacher and classroom nathan has been

flying through his IEP goals. BUT remember this is our

situation, each one is different and only you can

decide what is right for your child. shawna.

=====

shawna

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Totally agree, Rick. Inclusion should not be an end in itself, but a means

to an end.

granny

Inclusion

> In my mind, the first place to think about inclusion is at home and in

> the community. The public education system is an important part of a

> child's life, but hardly even most of it. With Jan, we tended to think

> about the education system being for education and worked to find the

> best environment for her to learn in. Yes we did work to see that there

> was some (perhaps small by some people's standards) inclusion with the

> general school population, but our stress was on having her learn all

> she could, as it was after public education when she had her 'college

> equivalent' post high school program.

>

> The times I got most upset were when the community rejected Jan (usually

> the actions of a single individual). She was refused a place in the

> local girl scout troop because the new leader couldn't cope. She hadn't

> been a problem before that. She got bounced out of a YMCA gymnastics

> team program because the Y director didn't like the image of her working

> out with the team. Still, we didn't push her where she wasn't wanted,

> but found alternate paths.

>

> For many of our kids, today's inclusive education environment works

> well, but many children do not learn well in that environment and there

> may be alternative learning environments that will serve the child

> better. The alternative environments (which include home schooling) may

> not be as inclusive, but they don't prevent the child from having a lot

> of inclusion.

>

> Each of our children are different. Jan did well in small classes where

> her education could be very much individualized. I am not sure she

> could have kept her attention in a more distracting environment. She

> would not have done will in many sped environments, so we carefully

> chose teachers and environments and then stayed with them for multiple

> years at a time. The one time a bad teacher/environment choice was

> made, it was changed within three months.

>

> Yes, Jan was the only person with down syndrome yesterday at the town

> Memorial Day races. She walked the 4.2 Km walk in 65 minutes. I did

> the same, beat her by more than 20 minutes and went back to finish with

> her. Then we went to the annual church fair. She was on her own there,

> not supervised and was just as included as anyone.

>

> Rick ... dad to 29 year old Jan

>

>

> Click reply to all for messages to go to the list. Just hit reply for

messages to go to the sender of the message.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Donna,

NYC does! Wanna come here????

~ Mom to 11 DS and Diabetes Type 1 and 7 NY

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/11/2002 2:23:26 PM Central Standard Time,

DonnaLG@... writes:

> Does anybody on the list live in a school district that totally accepts

> inclusion & knows how to do it? Do you have teachers who know how to

> modify cirriculum?

> I have been seriously thinking about moving for this & other reasons, but

> am not sure where to go.

> Thanks,

> Donna & (10ds)

I hear you Donna lololol Hubby wants to move too, he can transfer with his

job but I don't want to move into an area where I have to work harder then I

do now lol

We did have an Inclusion conference once where the staff at Hearn ?? School

(not sure now if it was an elementary or higher) spoke. The principal was

blind and his school was full inclusion. Each Reg Ed teacher had a Sped

teacher to CO-teach with them. I sat in awe listening to his staff. This

school is in Boston and I think they have a web site..............so there

are schools out there doing it lol we need to make our own list

Kathy mom to Sara 10

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/11/02 9:56:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

> Does anybody on the list live in a school district that totally accepts

> inclusion & knows how to do it?

Our district does inclusion fairly well in elementary school. It gets so much

harder to do once the child gets into middle and high school. It really

requires major changes in how things are done. Winoski, VT used to have a

reputation for doing inclusion K-12 very well--this was while Villa

was there. I haven't heard if they are still doing it since he has left there.

nancy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/12/2002 3:02:21 PM Central Standard Time,

NEHolroyd@... writes:

> VT used to have a

> reputation for doing inclusion K-12 very well--this was while Villa

> was there. I haven't heard if they are still doing it since he has left

> there.

>

> nancy

WOW I love to hear him speak I was in a workshop with him on 9-11 bless

his heart he couldnt even fly home for over a week

Kathy mom to Sara 10

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/13/2002 10:01:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

Tubafour@... writes:

> Can't remember her name.

Jackie Thousands ... and they have co-authored many books. He always made

feel like we should move to Vermont!

Cheryl

[Guest guest]

Villa is one of the most dynamic speakers on inclusion I have ever

heard. I cracked up when I heard him refer to his wife as " my wife and

colleague... " Can't remember her name. At least it wasn't " the old ball

and chain. " lol We cornered him a little when he spoke to us and asked

him exactly HOW he managed to convince teachers to include and how training

proceeded. It helped tremendously when we went back to the school district

personnel to discuss it. He had videos to show success.

Elaine

Re: Re: inclusion

> In a message dated 6/12/2002 3:02:21 PM Central Standard Time,

> NEHolroyd@... writes:

>

>

> > VT used to have a

> > reputation for doing inclusion K-12 very well--this was while

Villa

> > was there. I haven't heard if they are still doing it since he has left

> > there.

> >

> > nancy

>

>

> WOW I love to hear him speak I was in a workshop with him on 9-11 bless

> his heart he couldnt even fly home for over a week

>

> Kathy mom to Sara 10

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kathy,

My son's school also has a school within a school My son' s school

is ps 236 the one upstairs is ps771. There is NO mixing of kids in groups.

One or two of the kids from upstairs came down last year for reading. They

had a para with them. . Lunch time is different, They are released at

different times from a different door.

I was at ps 222 for the cpse meeting. They have a big special ed

program. I saw one class come off the elevator. There was 6-7 kids 3 had

ds. All i kept thing was will not be in a class like that. The

three kids with ds seemed out of place with the other kids. The ds kids

seemed so alert and aware of what's going on than other kids were.

Maureen

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/14/2002 12:11:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

modoyo@... writes:

<< I was at ps 222 for the cpse meeting. They have a big special ed

program. I saw one class come off the elevator. There was 6-7 kids 3 had

ds. All i kept thing was will not be in a class like that. The

three kids with ds seemed out of place with the other kids. The ds kids

seemed so alert and aware of what's going on than other kids were.

>>

Maureen,

This scares me too. if you're listening... any more information on

inclusion in NYC schools, you could give us would really help. Offline if

you want since I'm not sure how many other folks are interested. I would so

appreciate it. The only parents in my neighborhood who's children needed

extra have opted for private schools. I'm going to have kindergarten prep as

the main topic of our IEP meeting next week.

I was speaking with Liam's home based PT last night. He is a PT for the NYC

board of Ed, as well as a private PT and, coincidently, a neighbor of mine.

He says I'm going to have a big fight on my hands (probably court), if I try

and put Liam in the neighborhood public school for 'regular' Kindergarten.

If I want him in an inclusive environment he'll have to travel. He also told

me what I had already heard. The special ed program in my neighborhood

contains severely affected children and psychologically troubled kids. He

agreed that Liam doesn't belong there.

Kathy, Liam's mom(4)

[Guest guest]

I would love to know this answer..........

Eleanor

inclusion

Does anybody on the list live in a school district that totally accepts

inclusion & knows how to do it? Do you have teachers who know how to modify

cirriculum?

I have been seriously thinking about moving for this & other reasons, but am

not sure where to go.

Thanks,

Donna & (10ds)

[Guest guest]

re: " He says I'm going to have a big fight on my hands (probably court), if

I try

and put Liam in the neighborhood public school for 'regular' Kindergarten. "

Folks,

I have to say I think this is part of our " fight, " if you will, for the

group who comes after us. The group(s) who came before us got our children

out of mental institutions, into schools (inclusive or not), into work

settings, play settings, ....on and on. I think we have a responsiblity to

the ones who came before and who will come after to take up this terribly

difficult challenge and move the baton forward for the next ones. IMHO

Eleanor

[Guest guest]

Eleanor

I never think about our rol in that way.

is nice to make a line between what was done in the past past for us and what we

will do now for the future.

Is better to be part of that line.

Thanks for open my eyes

------

Folks,

I have to say I think this is part of our " fight, " if you will, for the

group who comes after us. The group(s) who came before us got our children

out of mental institutions, into schools (inclusive or not), into work

settings, play settings, ....on and on. I think we have a responsiblity to

the ones who came before and who will come after to take up this terribly

difficult challenge and move the baton forward for the next ones. IMHO

Eleanor

[Guest guest]

I agree with you Eleanor,

My school district has just the life skills program so I know already that

I will have a fight on my hands,but I owe it not only to the future parents of

children with DS> I owe it to my own son and his generation to fight for him.

He should have the right to attend the neighborhood school that his 4 brothers

and sisters before him did. If that means court, so be it. It is the school

districts decision not mine as he has a right to the least restrictive

enviroment available. If they don't or can't do that now then they have to get

with the program!!!

Loree

Re: inclusion

re: " He says I'm going to have a big fight on my hands (probably court), if

I try

and put Liam in the neighborhood public school for 'regular' Kindergarten. "

Folks,

I have to say I think this is part of our " fight, " if you will, for the

group who comes after us. The group(s) who came before us got our children

out of mental institutions, into schools (inclusive or not), into work

settings, play settings, ....on and on. I think we have a responsiblity to

the ones who came before and who will come after to take up this terribly

difficult challenge and move the baton forward for the next ones. IMHO

Eleanor

Click reply to all for messages to go to the list. Just hit reply for

messages to go to the sender of the message.

[Guest guest]

When Janet went to school, our district had only one set of options.

That is why Jan never went to school in her home district. We were able

to shop across the county and find programs that fit her. Yes, there

were a lot of awful programs, but after a big initial fight we were able

to get programs which educated her to her potential with individual

education where group education didn't work. No these were not

inclusive in today's sense, but we have a very functional young adult.

Rick

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/15/02 1:02:27 PM Central Daylight Time,

loree5@... writes:

>

> I agree with you Eleanor,

> My school district has just the life skills program so I know already

> that I will have a fight on my hands,but I owe it not only to the future

> parents of children with DS> I owe it to my own son and his generation to

> fight for him. He should have the right to attend the neighborhood school

> that his 4 brothers and sisters before him did. If that means court, so be

> it. It is the school districts decision not mine as he has a right to the

> least restrictive enviroment available. If they don't or can't do that now

> then they have to get with the program!!!

>

> Loree

LOL, well my school had absolutely NO PROGRAM. :-) they did have sped but

all the more delayed children were always shipped out to a neighboring

district. Now they have a small program and it is very individual since

there were only 2 kids with mod/severe delays in the whole elem, we insisted

in K that she wasn't going anywhere but her home school. They insisted that

they didn't have to keep her there because they were a small school. They

learned differently, from our advocate and their school attourney. Was it

worth it? yes and no. it as a year to year thing some good some bad. But

even without being in the classroom all the time, not good for her since she

had/has sensory issues and would easily overload and shut down then nothing

got done, over all things went well,, all her classmates know her, alot of

those older and even younger know her. She ate with them, had breaks with

them, had recess with them and they helped her and included her, she did

many projects with them, went to art with them, played flutephone with them

in 4th grade, and so on and so on. :-)

And now she'll be going to the school for the deaf. It's time for a change

and this will still keep her in a SMALL school, and the plus is this school

has been dealing with kids on all levels of developement for a long long

time, it's small enought that they all know each other, like at my home dist.

:-)

Joy

[Guest guest]

Rick, You were a pioneer before anyone knew what inclusion was and began

forging the way for the rest of us by seeing to it that Jan got an education in

the best way possible at the time. You are to be praised for the job that you

have done for Jan. I love reading your posts. Your love for her is so evident

and what you have done for Jan without the help that all the rest of us are

lucky enough to have access to is to be commended!!

Loree5

re: inclusion

When Janet went to school, our district had only one set of options.

That is why Jan never went to school in her home district. We were able

to shop across the county and find programs that fit her. Yes, there

were a lot of awful programs, but after a big initial fight we were able

to get programs which educated her to her potential with individual

education where group education didn't work. No these were not

inclusive in today's sense, but we have a very functional young adult.

Rick

Click reply to all for messages to go to the list. Just hit reply for

messages to go to the sender of the message.

[Guest guest]

I second the motion!

Eleanor

re: inclusion

When Janet went to school, our district had only one set of options.

That is why Jan never went to school in her home district. We were able

to shop across the county and find programs that fit her. Yes, there

were a lot of awful programs, but after a big initial fight we were able

to get programs which educated her to her potential with individual

education where group education didn't work. No these were not

inclusive in today's sense, but we have a very functional young adult.

Rick

Click reply to all for messages to go to the list. Just hit reply for

messages to go to the sender of the message.