Re: abstract thought

[Guest guest]

Absolutely!!!!! Another 'can't do' myth down the drain ;>)See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

[Guest guest]

I don't think that is a form of abstract thinking in the way it's being defined by the psychologists of the world and also the medical community, which they are a part of. Even though Danny used logic, reason and is just plain smart, all those are very concrete things and the gas tank is just a very large. but handy PEC. If he could have, he would have just said or signed it instead of having to show you since you obviously weren't thinking as fast as he was. ;-)I argued this with my when he was in psych 101 at college and he showed me in his book that 'abstract thinking' requires being able to understand a non-concrete concept, and honestly , after reading the description in his book, I have come to the conclusion that NONE of us are capable of

abstract thought. :-)At least not those of us who are mere mortals. I guess Einstein had it down pretty well.Here's what Wikipedia says- just trying to read this is an exercise in abstract thinking, and I failed.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AbstractionCarol in IL AIM doihavtasay1Mom to seven including , 6 with TOF, AVcanal, GERD, LS, Asthma, subglottal stenosis, and DS.My problem is not how I look. It's how you see me. Join our Down Syndrome information group - Down Syndrome Treatment/ Listen to oldest dd's music http://www.myspace.com/vennamusic----- Original Message ----From: Kathy Ratkiewicz <Kathy_R@...>Down Syndrome Treatment Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 4:20:00 PMSubject: abstract thought

I know that it has been stated that people w/Ds do not have

the ability to think abstractly….but…Danny is always doing stuff

that makes me question that statement…today, for example, he and I had to

go on an errand to a very small town..Danny loves ICEES (which he calls ‘pop

slushy’) and he asked me for one after we were done with our errand. I

hadn’t seen a Burger King or similar fast food place to buy one, so I told

Danny that…he said, “Ah! Sssssssssss!” and led me around to

the side of the van where the gas cap is located…lifted the cover and

told me ‘pop slushy’.. which helped me to remember that gas

stations also sell pop slushies…and sure enough, the only gas station in

town DID have icees. So isn’t that an example of abstract thought? Here is a definition: http://www.thefreed ictionary. com/abstract+ thought Noun1.abstract thought - thinking that is

coherent and logical

[Guest guest]

If it was a picture of a pop slushy, it would have been a PEC…but

he was making a connection between the gas station and being able to buy the

slushy….he wasn’t telling me that we needed to go buy gas, he was

telling me that we could go buy a slushy at the gas station…

Abstraction is the process of generalization

by reducing the information content of a concept or an

observable phenomenon, typically in order to retain only information

which is relevant for a particular purpose. For

example, abstracting a leather soccer ball to a ball retains only the

information on general ball attributes and behaviour.

Similarly, abstracting an emotional state to happiness

reduces the amount of information conveyed about the emotional state.

According to the Wiki definition, wouldn’t the process

of generalization in this instance be that he reduced the information content

of the concept of putting gas in the gas tank to also being able to buy a

slushy at the gas station? He retained only the information relevant for his

particular purpose (ie, that slushies can be bought at the gas station)

From:

Down Syndrome Treatment

[mailto:Down Syndrome Treatment ] On Behalf Of Carol in

IL

Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 8:58 PM

Down Syndrome Treatment

Subject: Re: abstract thought

I don't think that is a form of

abstract thinking in the way it's being defined by the psychologists of the

world and also the medical community, which they are a part

of. Even though Danny used logic, reason and is just plain smart, all

those are very concrete things and the gas tank is just a very large. but handy

PEC. If he could have, he would have just said or signed it instead of having

to show you since you obviously weren't thinking as fast as he was. ;-)

I argued this with my when he was in psych 101 at college and he showed

me in his book that 'abstract thinking' requires being able to understand a

non-concrete concept, and honestly , after reading the description in his

book, I have come to the conclusion that NONE of us are capable of abstract

thought. :-)

At least not those of us who are mere mortals. I guess Einstein had it down

pretty well.

Here's what Wikipedia says- just trying to read this is an exercise in abstract

thinking, and I failed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction

Carol in IL AIM doihavtasay1

Mom to seven including

, 6 with TOF, AVcanal, GERD, LS, Asthma, subglottal stenosis, and DS.

My problem is not how I look. It's how you see me.

Join our

Down Syndrome information group -

Down Syndrome Treatment/

Listen to

oldest dd's music http://www.myspace.com/vennamusic

abstract thought

I

know that it has been stated that people w/Ds do not have the ability to think

abstractly….but…Danny is always doing stuff that makes me question

that statement…today, for example, he and I had to go on an errand to a

very small town..Danny loves ICEES (which he calls ‘pop slushy’)

and he asked me for one after we were done with our errand. I hadn’t seen

a Burger King or similar fast food place to buy one, so I told Danny

that…he said, “Ah! Sssssssssss!” and led me around to the

side of the van where the gas cap is located…lifted the cover and told me

‘pop slushy’.. which helped me to remember that gas stations

also sell pop slushies…and sure enough, the only gas station in town DID

have icees. So isn’t that an example of abstract thought?

Here

is a definition:

http://www.thefreed

ictionary. com/abstract+ thought

Noun1.abstract thought - thinking that is

coherent and logical

[Guest guest]

He said slushy, but couldn't get the concept of gas station across to you, so he used the gas cap as his PEC. If had been able to articulate gas station or sign it, he would have, right? Or if had a PEC or picture of a gas station he would have used that, but he didn't have any of those things, instead he had the gas cap, which in his mind, meant 'gas station' cause that's all he has seen you use it for. Means the same in your mind too after you gave it a thought.

But they are still concrete items and concepts that he communicated to you using what he had to work with. Knowing that gas stations sell slushies is a concrete concept ( according the psych version anyway)

According to Chicoine this is evidence of their superb visual memory, which I guess is pretty concrete by it's very nature of needing a visual to start with. Sees slushies at gas stations, sees mom put gas in the tank. gas is tied to slushy Logical for sure, and very resourceful too!!!

But I don't think it qualifies as abstract.

Who said this anyway, besides Dr L?? where did he get his info to start with? I think we need to see what definition he is working off of. This all reminds me of having to re-learn terms to understand what her cardiologists were saying! The medical community does NOT speak English!!!

I think he is talking about some pie in the sky definition of abstract thought. I have no doubt that our kids are very bright and I see making generalization, which is also supposed to be hard, For example- point to a rose and call it a 'flower' and its a flower forever not a rose, and a tulip is not a flower. She has no problem with grouping items of like things- tulips, roses, mums, daisy etc are all flowers.

She can take two separate concepts and join them together in a way not previously taught to her thereby applying her learning, which I think is what Danny did He took separate pieces of info and made an association between them. That;s also called 'generalization' because you are using information and generalizing it to other areas

Carol in IL AIM doihavtasay1Mom to seven including , 6 with TOF, AVcanal, GERD, LS, Asthma, subglottal stenosis, and DS.My problem is not how I look. It's how you see me.

Join our Down Syndrome information group -

Down Syndrome Treatment/

Listen to oldest dd's music http://www.myspace.com/vennamusic

[DownSyndromeInfoEx change] abstract thought

I know that it has been stated that people w/Ds do not have the ability to think abstractly….but…Danny is always doing stuff that makes me question that statement…today, for example, he and I had to go on an errand to a very small town..Danny loves ICEES (which he calls ‘pop slushy’) and he asked me for one after we were done with our errand. I hadn’t seen a Burger King or similar fast food place to buy one, so I told Danny that…he said, “Ah! Sssssssssss!” and led me around to the side of the van where the gas cap is located…lifted the cover and told me ‘pop slushy’.. which helped me to remember that gas stations also sell pop slushies…and sure enough, the only gas station in town DID have icees. So isn’t that an example of abstract thought?

Here is a definition:

http://www.thefreed ictionary. com/abstract+ thought

Noun1.abstract thought - thinking that is coherent and logical

[Guest guest]

I don't have a clue??? :-D

Hope

[Guest guest]

Coming to the rescue :-)

There was an article once about this extremely intelligent youngster

with DS who suddenly died not so long ago, remember (see below)? I

suppose he must have mastered abstract thinking...he scored 1460 on

the SAT, for heavens sake!

Leichtman said there's an exception to every rule. But who knows,

there might be more of those around...

/Switzerland

***

A remarkable achiever's life ends at 22

Defying all expectations for someone with Down's syndrome, he was

majoring in English at USF.

By EMILY NIPPS, Times Staff Writer

Published July 6, 2005

TAMPA - Geoffrey Powers had been writing his life story. He had put

together an outline for it. His mother said that it " basically began

.... well, naturally, at the beginning. "

Diane " Ditty " Tower found it hard to say much more than that. She did

say that Powers was a brilliant English major at the University of

South Florida and had a bright future ahead of him.

This was remarkable considering that he had Down's syndrome, impaired

speech and was partially blind. He couldn't take notes with a pencil

or engage in classroom dialogue and had a hard time performing basic

tasks.

On Friday morning, Powers' mother went to get him out of bed as usual

at their home in Lutz. He didn't wake up, and it hasn't yet been

determined why. He was 22.

" He was healthy as a horse, " Tower said. " He was happy and in great

shape. But he's in heaven now. "

It was Tower who saw the potential in her baby, who was born Jan. 23,

1983, and needed close, nonstop care ever since. It was Tower who

educated herself in disability issues.

It was Tower who fought to get her son out of a special education

center and into regular classrooms in the Hillsborough County School

District, which was skeptical about a 10-year-old who could only speak

through a facilitator by pointing to letters on a paper keypad. With

the help of several aides and facilitators, as well as his mother,

Powers began attending fourth grade at Northwest Elementary.

By the time he completed middle school at Roland Park, teachers were

telling Tower that her son was brilliant. He took advanced placement

calculus, Latin and English literature at Gaither High School. He

scored 1460 on the SAT. He graduated with honors in 2002 and enrolled

at USF.

Tower attended most of Powers' college classes with him, with the

exception of math because, " I hate math, " she said. " I would drive him

crazy. "

For those classes, Powers relied on his longtime vision teacher and

friend, Fay Osborn.

Powers was extremely talented in math, Tower said, but he chose

English as his major and was a beautiful writer. He hoped to become a

civil rights attorney one day.

" He wanted to help people like him, " Tower said.

Powers found computers too frustrating to use in middle and high

school, but got very good at using computers while in college. Just

before he died, he and his mother were getting ready to select a

voice-activated computer to help him communicate better. It would have

been an exciting step for Powers, who made great strides as a student

but still had little social contact outside of his mother and Osborn.

Powers' father, Geoffrey Powers III, divorced Tower in 1993 and saw

his son every few weeks. He would take Powers to Clearwater Threshers

games because he loved baseball. The two also went to the movies a

lot. Powers loved Star Wars, and he was also into Law & Order and NYPD

Blue.

" He did have a sense of humor, " Powers said. " He was always laughing,

but it was very hard to know exactly what he was laughing about

sometimes. "

The elder Powers suspects his son may have died from a heart attack,

but the family is still waiting for a cause of death from the medical

examiner.

Tower said Powers was writing his life story to help others and to

educate others about his disability.

She didn't want to share details of the story, though, and was still

in a state of shock.

" I want it ended, " Tower said. " I just want to grieve. "

A funeral for Powers will be held at St. Catholic Church in

Carrollwood today at 10:30.

Times researcher Wos contributed to this report.

© Copyright 2003 St. sburg Times. All rights reserved

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/07/06/news_pf/Hillsborough/A_remarkable_achiever.sht\

ml

>

> He said slushy, but couldn't get the concept of gas station across

to you, so he used the gas cap as his PEC. If had been able to

articulate gas station or sign it, he would have, right? Or if had a

PEC or picture of a gas station he would have used that, but he didn't

have any of those things, instead he had the gas cap, which in his

mind, meant 'gas station' cause that's all he has seen you use it for.

Means the same in your mind too after you gave it a thought.

>

> But they are still concrete items and concepts that he communicated

to you using what he had to work with. Knowing that gas stations sell

slushies is a concrete concept ( according the psych version anyway)

>

>

> According to Chicoine this is evidence of their superb visual

memory, which I guess is pretty concrete by it's very nature of

needing a visual to start with. Sees slushies at gas stations, sees

mom put gas in the tank. gas is tied to slushy Logical for sure, and

very resourceful too!!!

>

> But I don't think it qualifies as abstract.

>

> Who said this anyway, besides Dr L?? where did he get his info to

start with? I think we need to see what definition he is working off

of. This all reminds me of having to re-learn terms to understand what

her cardiologists were saying! The medical community does NOT speak

English!!!

>

> I think he is talking about some pie in the sky definition of

abstract thought. I have no doubt that our kids are very bright and I

see making generalization, which is also supposed to be

hard, For example- point to a rose and call it a 'flower' and its a

flower forever not a rose, and a tulip is not a flower. She has no

problem with grouping items of like things- tulips, roses, mums, daisy

etc are all flowers.

>

> She can take two separate concepts and join them together in a way

not previously taught to her thereby applying her learning, which I

think is what Danny did He took separate pieces of info and made an

association between them. That;s also called 'generalization' because

you are using information and generalizing it to other areas

>

>

>

> Carol in IL AIM doihavtasay1

> Mom to seven including , 6 with TOF, AVcanal, GERD, LS,

Asthma, subglottal stenosis, and DS.

>

> My problem is not how I look. It's how you see me.

>

>

> Join our Down Syndrome information group -

> Down Syndrome Treatment/

>

> Listen to oldest dd's music http://www.myspace.com/vennamusic

>

>

>

> [DownSyndromeInfoEx change] abstract thought

> I know that it has been stated that people w/Ds do not have the

ability to think abstractly….but…Danny is always doing stuff that

makes me question that statement…today, for example, he and I had to

go on an errand to a very small town..Danny loves ICEES (which he

calls `pop slushy') and he asked me for one after we were done with

our errand. I hadn't seen a Burger King or similar fast food place to

buy one, so I told Danny that…he said, " Ah! Sssssssssss! " and led me

around to the side of the van where the gas cap is located…lifted the

cover and told me `pop slushy'.. which helped me to remember that gas

stations also sell pop slushies…and sure enough, the only gas station

in town DID have icees. So isn't that an example of abstract thought?

> Here is a definition:

> http://www.thefreed ictionary. com/abstract+ thought

> Noun1.abstract thought - thinking that is coherent and logical

>

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

> http://searchmarketing./

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I know that it has been stated that people w/Ds do not have the

ability to

> think abstractly..but.Danny is always doing stuff that makes me

question

> that statement.today, for example, he and I had to go on an errand

to a very

> small town..Danny loves ICEES (which he calls 'pop slushy') and he

asked me

> for one after we were done with our errand. I hadn't seen a Burger

King or

> similar fast food place to buy one, so I told Danny that.he

said, " Ah!

> Sssssssssss! " and led me around to the side of the van where the

gas cap is

> located.lifted the cover and told me 'pop slushy'.. which helped

me to

> remember that gas stations also sell pop slushies.and sure enough,

the only

> gas station in town DID have icees. So isn't that an example of

abstract

> thought?

>

> Here is a definition:

>

> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/abstract+thought

>

> Noun1.abstract thoughtabstract thought - thinking that is coherent

and

> logical

>

I do agree that people with ds are quite capable of abstract

thought.I think that the medical community with their so-called

knowledge will make a " miraculous discovery " of something we parents

of ds kids already know-that our kids know way more than people

think they do-and it may come to light that they are not

actually " mentally retarded " but may simply have trouble expressing

themselves, which comes off as mental retardation.

[Guest guest]

>

> I know that it has been stated that people w/Ds do not have the

ability to

> think abstractly..but.Danny is always doing stuff that makes me

question

> that statement.today, for example, he and I had to go on an errand

to a very

> small town..Danny loves ICEES (which he calls 'pop slushy') and he

asked me

> for one after we were done with our errand. I hadn't seen a Burger

King or

> similar fast food place to buy one, so I told Danny that.he

said, " Ah!

> Sssssssssss! " and led me around to the side of the van where the

gas cap is

> located.lifted the cover and told me 'pop slushy'.. which helped

me to

> remember that gas stations also sell pop slushies.and sure enough,

the only

> gas station in town DID have icees. So isn't that an example of

abstract

> thought?

>

> Here is a definition:

>

> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/abstract+thought

>

> Noun1.abstract thoughtabstract thought - thinking that is coherent

and

> logical

>

I do agree that people with ds are quite capable of abstract

thought.I think that the medical community with their so-called

knowledge will make a " miraculous discovery " of something we parents

of ds kids already know-that our kids know way more than people

think they do-and it may come to light that they are not

actually " mentally retarded " but may simply have trouble expressing

themselves, which comes off as mental retardation.