Re: Great PT Idea....for babies and young kids

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Just my 2cents- is very low tone and has been walking for about a

year now. His gait is very wide partly because of this frog posture. We

were told not to use this method when he was younger because it was felt

that anything that even remotely made it difficult for him to move was bad

news. We constantly struggled with keeping active, even now he

would much rather sit down than do anything. His PT says he must have an

extra weight in his bottom that drags him back down to the sitting position

at every opportunity (ha ha ). We do stretching exercises with him at

school, at therapy and at home since it was discovered that the muscles on

one side of his legs were shortening. As a result, the muscle disparity has

almost been eliminated after one year of treatments daily. s gait

continues to improve consistently after lots of strengthening exercises like

climbing, walking and doing every weird thing I could think of to strengthen

those hips. Climbing is the best activity to combat this. When he first

started walking he walked like Wayne who I understand had back and hip

problems. Now hes just about 50% Wayne and 50% .

My advice on this issue is if your baby is active and you see no diminished

activity after using this method, I would say go for it, BUT if you see that

your child is not moving around as much or has lost ANY interest in doing

certain activities I would say dont do it and just fight that battle later

with effective exercise. That's the unexpert opinion from a mom whos been

there on one side of this fence.

Jodi,

mom to 5 DS

RE: Great PT Idea....for babies and young kids

>Hi all,

>

>The method talked about was given in my group. This method was

written

>in a book called 'kleine stapjes' (little steps). A method translated from

>the Australian Macquerie Early Intervention program.

>Maybe its interesting to translate what it says.

>

>The goal is to prevent te 'frog posture' (if that is what its called)

>

>How to teach:

>>From now on never let your child lay down with his legs spread. Keep, if

>necessary, his legs together in one of the following ways.

>- Sow 2 tennis wristsbends together, Put them on the upperlegs of the

child.

>- Put a tennis hairband around a thigh, twist it ones and put it on the

>other thigh.

>- Pull one leg of a pantyhose around the legs of the schild so he is in it

>from knees to middle (mermaid posture)

>- sow the legs of a wide overall to eachother.

>

>The use of these means will not restrict the free moving of your child.

With

>children who are tending to walk in a wide legged pattern this can be used

>all day - during sitting, crawling, standing and walking.

>

>as a footnote it says. When your child has stiff legs consult a therapist.

>

>Hope it will take some misunderstandings away.

>

>The book I am talking about is a 700 pages guideline that's recommended

here

>in Holland for the use of children with a developmental problem. Besides

>Gros motor skills it describes fine motor skills, social skills and verbal

>skills.

>

>Rob

>dad of Merel 4 and Summer 22 months ds

>the Netherlands

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/27/2002 4:20:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

lauralk38@... writes:

> What this person suggested was to sew the legs of sleep pants together up

> the

> middle inseams - basically making them into a " two legged tube " . Then the

> child has to sleep with their legs together.

A consultant PT recommended it to our PT when Alec was a baby. We used one

side of a woman's stocking.

Lori

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/28/02 6:37:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

writes:

> What this person suggested was to sew the legs of sleep pants together up

> the

> middle inseams - basically making them into a " two legged tube " . Then the

> child has to sleep with their legs together. Apparently this mom's PT

> recommended this to her - sounds like a GREAT idea to me!! Obviously, once

> your child is walking and out of a crib, this might not work - although

> then

> again, maybe it would as long as they call you before they get out of bed!

> Hmmmmmmm - just had a thought - maybe it would help keep Jimmy from

>

Since Sheila would not keep herself covered at night I would put her in one

of those outfits that had sleeves and a hood, but was called a baby sleeping

bag. It was narrow enough to keep her knees together without being too

restrictive. she could crawl and creep in it and play with toys. Once she was

pulling herself up she could still stand in it, but since she couldn't throw

her leg upover the crib rail, she couldn't pull herself up and over the rail

of the crib.

nancy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/28/02 6:00:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

cindysue@... writes:

> The leading expert in PT and babies with DS does NOT recommend this

> approach. Her book is called Gross Motor Skills and Children with Down

> syndrome (Winders). I can't remember if she talked about this in the book

> or not.

>

>

>

Do you know why? Sounded like a great idea to me.........as I said, at least

until they're trying to stand up and walk.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 7:53:07 PM Central Daylight Time,

cindysue@... writes:

> I can't remember why. It's been 8 years.

>

> Personally, I think it's like putting a cast on a child and really

> restricting their movements. There are PT's who recommend it.

> We held 's legs together when he was being held. His gait is pretty

> good.

Well I carried on my hip (for quite some time cause she was small for so

long and it was easier to carry her sometimes, hehe) We never 'banded' her

legs together plus she started sitting up by doing the splits, and did it

this way for a few months..... :-o She walks fine, her biggest walking

problem seems to be her flat feet, I think this may have been one reason she

would not walk long distances for years, but the flat feet... that's probably

more of a problem for alot of our kids then the low muscle tone and how

they're held or not held as toddlers. IMO of course...lol....... for what

it's worth. The forcing the restricting movement thing....just gives me the

shivers. Thats just me tho. :-)

Joy Mom to 12, ds and 3 older girls.

PS, is the gait 'walk' one where they turn their feet out? I know what

you're talking about because i've seen it, just can't think of exactly what

it is about the 'walk' that really sticks out.

[Guest guest]

The leading expert in PT and babies with DS does NOT recommend this approach.

Her book is called Gross Motor Skills and Children with Down syndrome (Winders).

I can't remember if she talked about this in the book or not.

[Guest guest]

What was the oringal question?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/28/02 8:17:33 PM Central Daylight Time,

JTesmer799@... writes:

> would not walk long distances for years, but the flat feet... that's

> probably

> more of a problem for alot of our kids then the low muscle tone and how

> they're held or not held as toddlers. IMO of course...lol....... for what

> it's worth. The forcing the restricting movement thing....just gives me

> the

> shivers. Thats just me tho. :-)

>

> Joy Mom to 12, ds and 3 older girls.

>

I'm with you,Joy. As one who saw her son in casts from his chest to

his feet for weeks on end, I can't imagine restricting movement

unnecessarily. gives me the shivers too.

Jessie, Mom to , 37 and the light of my life.

[Guest guest]

,

I can't remember why. It's been 8 years.

Personally, I think it's like putting a cast on a child and really restricting

their movements. There are PT's who recommend it.

We held 's legs together when he was being held. His gait is pretty

good.

Re: Great PT Idea....for babies and young kids

In a message dated 4/28/02 6:00:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

cindysue@... writes:

> The leading expert in PT and babies with DS does NOT recommend this

> approach. Her book is called Gross Motor Skills and Children with Down

> syndrome (Winders). I can't remember if she talked about this in the book

> or not.

>

>

>

Do you know why? Sounded like a great idea to me.........as I said, at least

until they're trying to stand up and walk.

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

The method talked about was given in my group. This method was written

in a book called 'kleine stapjes' (little steps). A method translated from

the Australian Macquerie Early Intervention program.

Maybe its interesting to translate what it says.

The goal is to prevent te 'frog posture' (if that is what its called)

How to teach:

From now on never let your child lay down with his legs spread. Keep, if

necessary, his legs together in one of the following ways.

- Sow 2 tennis wristsbends together, Put them on the upperlegs of the child.

- Put a tennis hairband around a thigh, twist it ones and put it on the

other thigh.

- Pull one leg of a pantyhose around the legs of the schild so he is in it

from knees to middle (mermaid posture)

- sow the legs of a wide overall to eachother.

The use of these means will not restrict the free moving of your child. With

children who are tending to walk in a wide legged pattern this can be used

all day - during sitting, crawling, standing and walking.

as a footnote it says. When your child has stiff legs consult a therapist.

Hope it will take some misunderstandings away.

The book I am talking about is a 700 pages guideline that's recommended here

in Holland for the use of children with a developmental problem. Besides

Gros motor skills it describes fine motor skills, social skills and verbal

skills.

Rob

dad of Merel 4 and Summer 22 months ds

the Netherlands

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/28/2002 9:17:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

JTesmer799@... writes:

<< Well I carried on my hip (for quite some time cause she was small for

so

long and it was easier to carry her sometimes, hehe) We never 'banded' her

legs together plus she started sitting up by doing the splits, and did it

this way for a few months..... :-o >>

I think the main reason to avoid splitting is to encourage side sitting as a

means to getting upright. I remember working long and hard to get Liam to

sit up throught the side sitting position ( as per pat Winder's book). It

works the abs, the arms and provides more trunk stability. I have a friend

who's an orthopedic surgeon who freaked when he saw Liam sit up from a split.

He insisted Liam be xrayed to make sure his hips were intact. He also

recommended not letting him sit up that way, which I was trying to stop

anyway.

Kathy, Liam's mom(4)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/2002 3:24:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

breedeveld@... writes:

<< From now on never let your child lay down with his legs spread. Keep, if

necessary, his legs together in one of the following ways >>

This can also be done using first receiving blankets, then as the child gets

older put rice/bean bags propped up against the legs to the stay together.

Liam's early intervention teachers used long, then sand bags to help. The

problem with using a sack or bands is that you want the child to be able to

lift their legs UP to explore their feet.

Kathy, Liam's mom(4)

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/02 12:44:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JB66111@...

writes:

> The forcing the restricting movement thing....just gives me the shivers.

Getting a lot of negative feedback on this idea.....just thought I was

passing along something that could be helpful. As far as I'm concerned, if

it's something that will help my kid to not have an ongoing orthopedic

problem, I'm willing to do something that's non-invasive, doesn't hurt, and

doesn't cost me a fortune.... When I read the original post, I found myself

thinking " Gee, I wish I had known about this when Jimmy was a baby. " He was

the KING of " frog legs " , and still has the gait to prove it!!

And Rob, thanks for clarifying what was behind my post - I appreciate your

support.

[Guest guest]

I think my concern would be , by binding the legs you would be controlling

the muscle movement and alot of the leg muscles would not be used, and as far

as I know I dont think that can be good for our kids. Nettie619

[Guest guest]

Hi,

still sleeps " frog legs " style. Her PTs have always told me to just

go in and straighten out her legs whenever I see them under her. So that's

what I've always done. She had orthodics ever since she was walking. They

started out up to her knees and went lower and lower every year until they

were just little insoles in her shoes.

Now she's 11, and last year the orthopedic doctor took her off totally on my

recommendation. I said that the sneakers today are so supportive, she doesnt

really seem to need orthodics anymore and he agreed. So now she justs gets

good sneakers and every now and then we " sneak " a pair of really cool shoes

in and she does fine with them.

Ya know, our kids are going to be the way they are. We can't change that.

Maybe we should just accept some of that and stop trying so hard!

~ Mom to 11 DS and Diabetes Type 1 and 7 NY

[Guest guest]

I'm with you on that one, !

B CNY

Mom to Heidi 11 DS, Caleb 11 NDA,

Corrie 10 DS and Mae 5 DS

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Ya know, our kids are going to be the way they are. We can't change that.

Maybe we should just accept some of that and stop trying so hard!

~ Mom to 11 DS and Diabetes Type 1 and 7 NY

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/2002 6:20:42 PM Central Standard Time,

cindysue@... writes:

> There are many PT's who do recommend this. I went to an Early Intervention

> conference and I saw many kids with DS with bands on their legs (similiar

> to what you described).

Hi

Boy I must have really lived in the boonies...I have never heard of any of

this heehee now Sara never did the frog thing so maybe thats why her PT never

discussed it with me. She was a roller and this was the area we worked

on......how to get her to stop lol

Kathy mom to Sara 10

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/2002 7:07:06 AM Central Daylight Time,

lauralk38@... writes:

> When I read the original post, I found myself

> thinking " Gee, I wish I had known about this when Jimmy was a baby. " He

> was

> the KING of " frog legs " , and still has the gait to prove it!!

>

> And Rob, thanks for clarifying what was behind my post - I appreciate your

> support.

>

>

>

I did understand what was to be accomplished, and exactly what the 'banding'

thing was for.

I think the first time I heard of this was, hmmm, when I first joined the

down-syn list a few months before the list was creaated. so that

would be, hmm, how many years has this list exsisted? I think I joined

down-syn shortly after the 20/20 or whatever show it was that had the MSB+

thing on it. What was that 7 or 8 years ago?

It's just not something I'd do to my child, just not what I'd do, as I said

the thought gives me the shivers. Glad it was never mentioned by our PT.

hehe, I don't like restricting movement, and I believe that this is something

even PT's don't agree on. hehe. But did strengthen her hips and leg

muscles on her own, she didn't crawl but did the most unusal butt scoot. she

actually moved her lower legs from side to side, hands never touched the

floor, butt went up and down and legs moved for side to side, hard to explain

it cause even her PT had never seen it done that way. In our experience

letting her do those things the 'banding' was to prevent didn't cause her to

have a funny walk. :-) Tho she does have a funny run....but then so does

her oldest sister, so that's not a big deal. This is one of those things

that each parent decides if it's right for them or not. For us it wasn't.

:-)

Joy

Joy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/2002 2:46:29 PM Central Daylight Time,

linman42@... writes:

> Hi,

> still sleeps " frog legs " style. Her PTs have always told me to just

>

> go in and straighten out her legs whenever I see them under her. So that's

>

> what I've always done.

I think I'd have to say that having had 3 kids before , a baby/toddler

sleeping with 'frog legs' didn't bother me cause they all did it. So no I

probably wouldn't have gone in a straightened out her legs. hehe. Maybe

it's partly having already had a few babies around the house that I really

don't think that banding or straightening the legs is necessary. hehe.

Joy, Mom to .

[Guest guest]

> The forcing the restricting movement thing....just gives me the shivers.

Getting a lot of negative feedback on this idea.....just thought I was

passing along something that could be helpful.

,

There are many PT's who do recommend this. I went to an Early Intervention

conference and I saw many kids with DS with bands on their legs (similiar to

what you described). That is when I asked Pat about it. Many parents told me

that I should be doing that with and so and so is the best PT in WV and

recommends it for her children with DS. At the time, we were driving 5 hours

to get to Baltimore from where we lived. I think was seeing Pat 3 times

a year at the time. She gave written recommendations for us to follow at home

and for the local PT to implement (she also did not use the bands). For me, I

trusted the expert in DS and gross motor skills over a PT who didn't even

practice in my area but who I had contact with parents who did. Each parent in

conjunction with their PT has to decide what method to use. What I liked best

about Pat is, well two things, her attitude and encouraging parents to use

natural things with PT. The couch was our #1 piece of PT equipment.

I think Gail Foley is still on the list and I believe she used that method with

her son .

[Guest guest]

Well, I've been reading all the comments to and fro. was

never a " frogger " and did not have a particularly wide gait either. So I

didn't understand the binding things. He didn't do the splits to sit up

either, don't remember how he did it but it wasn't that way. They did tell

us that when he sat on his knees to play, not to let him sit with his feet

turned out so we watched that. Yet he was the one who ended up with the

dislocated hips. He started waddling more when he was 14, about a year

before he finally had surgery. He didn't do it before that. They called it

a delayed congenital problem. He never wanted to sit astride anything, and

he hated slides because of the bump at the bottom. Didn't want to jump off

anything, even a short hop. My brother and sister (twins) slept on their

stomachs with their rears in the air and knees pulled up (frogs?) and they

came out fine too. So I don't know. We did everything with and for

that we knew to do but of course newer things have come along we didn't know

about too.

Jessie, Mom to , 37 and the light of my life.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/29/2002 11:48:46 PM Central Standard Time,

macfamily38@... writes:

> BTW 's old PT recommended banding also. His foster family banded

> him at night. Once we got him into our home, we didn't band him, but not

> because we agreed or disagreed...didn't have much time to think about it

> with all of the info we were getting all of a sudden. It's just that our

> new PT said not to. So...I feel bad that anyone is flaming anyone else

> for sharing ideas they have heard.

>

HI

Oh my gosh so you too got conflicting advise for stuff from professionals

lolol I guess I just took what I heard and applied it to what I could do in

our family Sara did enjoy the sucking of pudding through a straw though

....she made the funniest faces

Kathy mom to Sara 10

[Guest guest]

If the " frog " thing is what does, then it is different than your

brother and sister. Imagine a child on the tummy... knees out with the

complete inner thigh touching the floor (kind of like the center splits

with tummy completely on the ground and then knees bent...feet almost

touching). It hurts me just watching him do it?!

Kym...Proud Mom to 4, including with DS (turning 5 next week!!!)

BTW 's old PT recommended banding also. His foster family banded

him at night. Once we got him into our home, we didn't band him, but not

because we agreed or disagreed...didn't have much time to think about it

with all of the info we were getting all of a sudden. It's just that our

new PT said not to. So...I feel bad that anyone is flaming anyone else

for sharing ideas they have heard.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<<<My brother and sister (twins) slept on their

stomachs with their rears in the air and knees pulled up (frogs?) and

they

came out fine too. >>>

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[Guest guest]

I just wanted to say in response to all this,,, that this support group is

for exchanging ideas and support , sometimes we will find things mentioned

here that are not right for our kids and our families, but it is your

responsiblity to take or not take in the infor you receive here. You take

what you feel is useful for your home and leave behind what is not. I really

hate seeing this stuff happen because I know all this attacks and bickering

are not encouraging others to chat with us. And I would hate a family that

has a need not be able to chat because of fear of being attacked . I know

there are alot of watchers out there , and we should be a good example to

them and for them. Nettie619

[Guest guest]

<<It's just not something I'd do to my child, just not what I'd do, as I

said

the thought gives me the shivers. Glad it was never mentioned by our PT. >>

Hi Joy!

I joined the list just before that infamous show was on television! This

was not something suggested by Ted's therapists either. I'm glad, as I

would not have done this. I'm not saying it isn't fine for others but, like

you...it didn't appeal to me. I had enough to do what with getting up

several times a night just to " unfold " Ted.

Gail, mom to Ted (10)