Re: To each his own path to healing

[Guest guest]

Jeanne, and group

The reason I have survived is a combination of things. One of them is that

my spiritual life is balanced with the real world. I would have died along

time ago if I did not balance the two on a daily basis. (That works for ME)

Every challenge that comes my way (illness, adversary and good and bad

things in life) I acquired wisdom and coping mechanisms and implement them

in my personal life.

I am by no means no angel and a know it all guy. I have spent many years

doing research and meeting people that are HIV+ and acquiring their wisdom

and using it in my life.

We are all so different, as we come from diverse cultures. Accept each other

in all ways.

I have channelled most of my experience into philosophy and poetry which I

have published on my personal web site and other media all over the world.

This is to encourage that there is life after HIV/AIDS!

Please do not be offended as each one of us is on a personal journey in

life. There is no greater gift than to love and be loved. But……to live life

to the fullest is the greatest of them all.

Regards,

Mark Gavin Farrell

Pos4life Online Support Group

Alternative Lifestyle

Community Health Care, Skills Training, HIV/AIDS Education, ARV Compliance

and Media

Tel: 27 21 559 5324

Skype: Posboy1

For any further information please email me

Living for all those affected or infected by the HIV/AIDS pandemic

Cape Town

South Africa

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to

which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged

material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or

taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or

entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received

this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any

computer.

_____

From: cures for AIDS [mailto:cures for AIDS ] On Behalf

Of J Purcell

Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:14 AM

cures for AIDS

Subject: To each his own path to healing

God I'm sick of all you people who think they have all the answers,

or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us REALLY know what

the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell wouldnt be here. We all

have to go through this in our own way. Searching for whatever works

for us. This group is a place, or at least I thought it was, where

we could turn for information and then figure if it was right for

us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for ME its the right

decision, but I still like to come here just to see if there might

be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people and just do your own

thing, it might not be for everyone, but just please stop all the

judging.

Sincerely,

Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

)== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13 years and still alive? I

recall some dissies saying the meds were so toxic....by the 10th year u'd

be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called poisons and pushing up

daisies (tongue in cheek).

Good to see you going strong. Have you had any adverse effects or share

of side effects from the meds so far?(any serious illnesses - hiv

related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far. I just had my labs, but

waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280. V-load under 50.

Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i can

naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and spiritual attunements, etc.

I'd be interested to see who all here on the list gets their counts done

still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My counts have steadily risen

slowly....since it got down to 25 during the lymphoma couple years back.

I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the 200's even while still

taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I guess it varies from person

to person.

Be well!

paul

[Guest guest]

Jeanne, and group

The reason I have survived is a combination of things. One of them is that

my spiritual life is balanced with the real world. I would have died along

time ago if I did not balance the two on a daily basis. (That works for ME)

Every challenge that comes my way (illness, adversary and good and bad

things in life) I acquired wisdom and coping mechanisms and implement them

in my personal life.

I am by no means no angel and a know it all guy. I have spent many years

doing research and meeting people that are HIV+ and acquiring their wisdom

and using it in my life.

We are all so different, as we come from diverse cultures. Accept each other

in all ways.

I have channelled most of my experience into philosophy and poetry which I

have published on my personal web site and other media all over the world.

This is to encourage that there is life after HIV/AIDS!

Please do not be offended as each one of us is on a personal journey in

life. There is no greater gift than to love and be loved. But……to live life

to the fullest is the greatest of them all.

Regards,

Mark Gavin Farrell

Pos4life Online Support Group

Alternative Lifestyle

Community Health Care, Skills Training, HIV/AIDS Education, ARV Compliance

and Media

Tel: 27 21 559 5324

Skype: Posboy1

For any further information please email me

Living for all those affected or infected by the HIV/AIDS pandemic

Cape Town

South Africa

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to

which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged

material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or

taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or

entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received

this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any

computer.

_____

From: cures for AIDS [mailto:cures for AIDS ] On Behalf

Of J Purcell

Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:14 AM

cures for AIDS

Subject: To each his own path to healing

God I'm sick of all you people who think they have all the answers,

or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us REALLY know what

the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell wouldnt be here. We all

have to go through this in our own way. Searching for whatever works

for us. This group is a place, or at least I thought it was, where

we could turn for information and then figure if it was right for

us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for ME its the right

decision, but I still like to come here just to see if there might

be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people and just do your own

thing, it might not be for everyone, but just please stop all the

judging.

Sincerely,

Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

)== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13 years and still alive? I

recall some dissies saying the meds were so toxic....by the 10th year u'd

be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called poisons and pushing up

daisies (tongue in cheek).

Good to see you going strong. Have you had any adverse effects or share

of side effects from the meds so far?(any serious illnesses - hiv

related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far. I just had my labs, but

waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280. V-load under 50.

Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i can

naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and spiritual attunements, etc.

I'd be interested to see who all here on the list gets their counts done

still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My counts have steadily risen

slowly....since it got down to 25 during the lymphoma couple years back.

I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the 200's even while still

taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I guess it varies from person

to person.

Be well!

paul

[Guest guest]

Hi all Mark u r an incredible person.I wish all those

who seem to b judgin others wud realise that we r

faced with an issue that needs us to hold each others

hands if we r to find a solution for all.lets stop

judging who is more right bt share the little we know

with others.

--- cures for AIDS

<markfarrellct@...> wrote:

> Jeanne, and group

>

>

>

> The reason I have survived is a combination of

things. One of them is that

> my spiritual life is balanced with the real world. I

would have died along

> time ago if I did not balance the two on a daily

basis. (That works for ME)

>

>

>

> Every challenge that comes my way (illness,

adversary and good and bad

> things in life) I acquired wisdom and coping

mechanisms and implement them

> in my personal life.

>

> I am by no means no angel and a know it all guy. I

have spent many years

> doing research and meeting people that are HIV+ and

acquiring their wisdom

> and using it in my life.

>

>

>

> We are all so different, as we come from diverse

cultures. Accept each othe

> r

> in all ways.

>

>

>

> I have channelled most of my experience into

philosophy and poetry which I

> have published on my personal web site and other

media all over the world.

> This is to encourage that there is life after

HIV/AIDS!

>

>

>

> Please do not be offended as each one of us is on a

personal journey in

> life. There is no greater gift than to love and be

loved. But……to live

> life

> to the fullest is the greatest of them all.

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

> Mark Gavin Farrell

>

>

>

> Pos4life Online Support Group

>

> Alternative Lifestyle

>

> Community Health Care, Skills Training, HIV/AIDS

Education, ARV Compliance

> and Media

>

> Tel: 27 21 559 5324

>

> Skype: Posboy1

>

> For any further information please email me

>

> Living for all those affected or infected by the

HIV/AIDS pandemic

>

> Cape Town

>

> South Africa

>

> The information transmitted is intended only for the

person or entity to

> which it is addressed and may contain confidential

and/or privileged

> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination

or other use of, or

> taking of any action in reliance upon, this

information by persons or

> entities other than the intended recipient is

prohibited. If you received

> this in error, please contact the sender and delete

the material from any

> computer.

>

> _____

>

> From: cures for AIDS

[mailto:cures for AIDS ] On Behal

> f

> Of J Purcell

> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:14 AM

> cures for AIDS

> Subject: To each his own path to healing

=== Message Truncated ===

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi all Mark u r an incredible person.I wish all those

who seem to b judgin others wud realise that we r

faced with an issue that needs us to hold each others

hands if we r to find a solution for all.lets stop

judging who is more right bt share the little we know

with others.

--- cures for AIDS

<markfarrellct@...> wrote:

> Jeanne, and group

>

>

>

> The reason I have survived is a combination of

things. One of them is that

> my spiritual life is balanced with the real world. I

would have died along

> time ago if I did not balance the two on a daily

basis. (That works for ME)

>

>

>

> Every challenge that comes my way (illness,

adversary and good and bad

> things in life) I acquired wisdom and coping

mechanisms and implement them

> in my personal life.

>

> I am by no means no angel and a know it all guy. I

have spent many years

> doing research and meeting people that are HIV+ and

acquiring their wisdom

> and using it in my life.

>

>

>

> We are all so different, as we come from diverse

cultures. Accept each othe

> r

> in all ways.

>

>

>

> I have channelled most of my experience into

philosophy and poetry which I

> have published on my personal web site and other

media all over the world.

> This is to encourage that there is life after

HIV/AIDS!

>

>

>

> Please do not be offended as each one of us is on a

personal journey in

> life. There is no greater gift than to love and be

loved. But……to live

> life

> to the fullest is the greatest of them all.

>

>

>

> Regards,

>

> Mark Gavin Farrell

>

>

>

> Pos4life Online Support Group

>

> Alternative Lifestyle

>

> Community Health Care, Skills Training, HIV/AIDS

Education, ARV Compliance

> and Media

>

> Tel: 27 21 559 5324

>

> Skype: Posboy1

>

> For any further information please email me

>

> Living for all those affected or infected by the

HIV/AIDS pandemic

>

> Cape Town

>

> South Africa

>

> The information transmitted is intended only for the

person or entity to

> which it is addressed and may contain confidential

and/or privileged

> material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination

or other use of, or

> taking of any action in reliance upon, this

information by persons or

> entities other than the intended recipient is

prohibited. If you received

> this in error, please contact the sender and delete

the material from any

> computer.

>

> _____

>

> From: cures for AIDS

[mailto:cures for AIDS ] On Behal

> f

> Of J Purcell

> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:14 AM

> cures for AIDS

> Subject: To each his own path to healing

=== Message Truncated ===

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

,

Yes, I've been on ARVs sence 93. I had to juggle through some meds

till I found a combination that works great, but all in all, I'm

doing great. Other than some occasional nausea, I'm good. I've had

NO related illness or disease. I guess I'm not the norm, but I'm

here and I AM doing great. I've been raising two kids on my own all

this time and for the last three years have been dealing with

chronic kidney failure with dialysis three days a week. (Completely

unrelated to my HIV) I've got IGA nephropathy which is heredetary.

Anyway, all in all, I feel blessed and WELL.

My T-Cells are 320 and my viral load is 0. I get them tested about

every 3 months. Keep in touch.

Jeanne in Concord

>

>

>

>

> God I'm sick of all you people who think they have all the

answers,

> or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us REALLY know what

> the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell wouldnt be here. We all

> have to go through this in our own way. Searching for whatever

works

> for us. This group is a place, or at least I thought it was, where

> we could turn for information and then figure if it was right for

> us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for ME its the right

> decision, but I still like to come here just to see if there might

> be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people and just do your

own

> thing, it might not be for everyone, but just please stop all the

> judging.

> Sincerely,

> Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

>

>

> )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13 years and still

alive? I

> recall some dissies saying the meds were so toxic....by the 10th

year u'd

> be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called poisons and pushing up

> daisies (tongue in cheek).

>

> Good to see you going strong. Have you had any adverse effects or

share

> of side effects from the meds so far?(any serious illnesses - hiv

> related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far. I just had my

labs, but

> waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280. V-load under 50.

> Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i can

> naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and spiritual attunements,

etc.

>

> I'd be interested to see who all here on the list gets their

counts done

> still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My counts have

steadily risen

> slowly....since it got down to 25 during the lymphoma couple years

back.

> I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the 200's even while

still

> taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I guess it varies from

person

> to person.

>

>

> Be well!

>

>

>

> paul

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Yes, I've been on ARVs sence 93. I had to juggle through some meds

till I found a combination that works great, but all in all, I'm

doing great. Other than some occasional nausea, I'm good. I've had

NO related illness or disease. I guess I'm not the norm, but I'm

here and I AM doing great. I've been raising two kids on my own all

this time and for the last three years have been dealing with

chronic kidney failure with dialysis three days a week. (Completely

unrelated to my HIV) I've got IGA nephropathy which is heredetary.

Anyway, all in all, I feel blessed and WELL.

My T-Cells are 320 and my viral load is 0. I get them tested about

every 3 months. Keep in touch.

Jeanne in Concord

>

>

>

>

> God I'm sick of all you people who think they have all the

answers,

> or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us REALLY know what

> the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell wouldnt be here. We all

> have to go through this in our own way. Searching for whatever

works

> for us. This group is a place, or at least I thought it was, where

> we could turn for information and then figure if it was right for

> us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for ME its the right

> decision, but I still like to come here just to see if there might

> be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people and just do your

own

> thing, it might not be for everyone, but just please stop all the

> judging.

> Sincerely,

> Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

>

>

> )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13 years and still

alive? I

> recall some dissies saying the meds were so toxic....by the 10th

year u'd

> be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called poisons and pushing up

> daisies (tongue in cheek).

>

> Good to see you going strong. Have you had any adverse effects or

share

> of side effects from the meds so far?(any serious illnesses - hiv

> related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far. I just had my

labs, but

> waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280. V-load under 50.

> Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i can

> naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and spiritual attunements,

etc.

>

> I'd be interested to see who all here on the list gets their

counts done

> still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My counts have

steadily risen

> slowly....since it got down to 25 during the lymphoma couple years

back.

> I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the 200's even while

still

> taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I guess it varies from

person

> to person.

>

>

> Be well!

>

>

>

> paul

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you have not seen the video HIV fact or Fraud, it may be in your interest to

do so. My viral load is way up there, but from my understanding this is a

meaningless figure, whereas the destruction of heart and or liver is not so

meaningless.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=73927148136819173 & q=HIV+Fact+or+Fiction

Jeanne Pruitt <italianjeannemamma@...> wrote:

,

Yes, I've been on ARVs sence 93. I had to juggle through some meds

till I found a combination that works great, but all in all, I'm

doing great. Other than some occasional nausea, I'm good. I've had

NO related illness or disease. I guess I'm not the norm, but I'm

here and I AM doing great. I've been raising two kids on my own all

this time and for the last three years have been dealing with

chronic kidney failure with dialysis three days a week. (Completely

unrelated to my HIV) I've got IGA nephropathy which is heredetary.

Anyway, all in all, I feel blessed and WELL.

My T-Cells are 320 and my viral load is 0. I get them tested about

every 3 months. Keep in touch.

Jeanne in Concord

>

>

>

>

> God I'm sick of all you people who think they have all the

answers,

> or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us REALLY know what

> the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell wouldnt be here. We all

> have to go through this in our own way. Searching for whatever

works

> for us. This group is a place, or at least I thought it was, where

> we could turn for information and then figure if it was right for

> us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for ME its the right

> decision, but I still like to come here just to see if there might

> be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people and just do your

own

> thing, it might not be for everyone, but just please stop all the

> judging.

> Sincerely,

> Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

>

>

> )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13 years and still

alive? I

> recall some dissies saying the meds were so toxic....by the 10th

year u'd

> be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called poisons and pushing up

> daisies (tongue in cheek).

>

> Good to see you going strong. Have you had any adverse effects or

share

> of side effects from the meds so far?(any serious illnesses - hiv

> related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far. I just had my

labs, but

> waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280. V-load under 50.

> Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i can

> naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and spiritual attunements,

etc.

>

> I'd be interested to see who all here on the list gets their

counts done

> still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My counts have

steadily risen

> slowly....since it got down to 25 during the lymphoma couple years

back.

> I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the 200's even while

still

> taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I guess it varies from

person

> to person.

>

>

> Be well!

>

>

>

> paul

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you have not seen the video HIV fact or Fraud, it may be in your interest to

do so. My viral load is way up there, but from my understanding this is a

meaningless figure, whereas the destruction of heart and or liver is not so

meaningless.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=73927148136819173 & q=HIV+Fact+or+Fiction

Jeanne Pruitt <italianjeannemamma@...> wrote:

,

Yes, I've been on ARVs sence 93. I had to juggle through some meds

till I found a combination that works great, but all in all, I'm

doing great. Other than some occasional nausea, I'm good. I've had

NO related illness or disease. I guess I'm not the norm, but I'm

here and I AM doing great. I've been raising two kids on my own all

this time and for the last three years have been dealing with

chronic kidney failure with dialysis three days a week. (Completely

unrelated to my HIV) I've got IGA nephropathy which is heredetary.

Anyway, all in all, I feel blessed and WELL.

My T-Cells are 320 and my viral load is 0. I get them tested about

every 3 months. Keep in touch.

Jeanne in Concord

>

>

>

>

> God I'm sick of all you people who think they have all the

answers,

> or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us REALLY know what

> the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell wouldnt be here. We all

> have to go through this in our own way. Searching for whatever

works

> for us. This group is a place, or at least I thought it was, where

> we could turn for information and then figure if it was right for

> us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for ME its the right

> decision, but I still like to come here just to see if there might

> be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people and just do your

own

> thing, it might not be for everyone, but just please stop all the

> judging.

> Sincerely,

> Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

>

>

> )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13 years and still

alive? I

> recall some dissies saying the meds were so toxic....by the 10th

year u'd

> be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called poisons and pushing up

> daisies (tongue in cheek).

>

> Good to see you going strong. Have you had any adverse effects or

share

> of side effects from the meds so far?(any serious illnesses - hiv

> related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far. I just had my

labs, but

> waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280. V-load under 50.

> Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i can

> naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and spiritual attunements,

etc.

>

> I'd be interested to see who all here on the list gets their

counts done

> still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My counts have

steadily risen

> slowly....since it got down to 25 during the lymphoma couple years

back.

> I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the 200's even while

still

> taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I guess it varies from

person

> to person.

>

>

> Be well!

>

>

>

> paul

>

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting, that video doesn't seem to be available on Google anymore, just the

usual videos about HIV from the standard medical viewpoint. Think someone

doesn't want that info getting out or what?

-D

peter newman <petenewman2004@...> wrote:

If you have not seen the video HIV fact or Fraud, it may be in your

interest to do so. My viral load is way up there, but from my understanding this

is a meaningless figure, whereas the destruction of heart and or liver is not so

meaningless.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=73927148136819173 & q=HIV+Fact+or+Fiction

Jeanne Pruitt <italianjeannemamma@...> wrote:

,

Yes, I've been on ARVs sence 93. I had to juggle through some meds

till I found a combination that works great, but all in all, I'm

doing great. Other than some occasional nausea, I'm good. I've had

NO related illness or disease. I guess I'm not the norm, but I'm

here and I AM doing great. I've been raising two kids on my own all

this time and for the last three years have been dealing with

chronic kidney failure with dialysis three days a week. (Completely

unrelated to my HIV) I've got IGA nephropathy which is heredetary.

Anyway, all in all, I feel blessed and WELL.

My T-Cells are 320 and my viral load is 0. I get them tested about

every 3 months. Keep in touch.

Jeanne in Concord

>

>

>

>

> God I'm sick of all you people who think they have all the

answers,

> or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us REALLY know what

> the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell wouldnt be here. We all

> have to go through this in our own way. Searching for whatever

works

> for us. This group is a place, or at least I thought it was, where

> we could turn for information and then figure if it was right for

> us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for ME its the right

> decision, but I still like to come here just to see if there might

> be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people and just do your

own

> thing, it might not be for everyone, but just please stop all the

> judging.

> Sincerely,

> Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

>

>

> )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13 years and still

alive? I

> recall some dissies saying the meds were so toxic....by the 10th

year u'd

> be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called poisons and pushing up

> daisies (tongue in cheek).

>

> Good to see you going strong. Have you had any adverse effects or

share

> of side effects from the meds so far?(any serious illnesses - hiv

> related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far. I just had my

labs, but

> waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280. V-load under 50.

> Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i can

> naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and spiritual attunements,

etc.

>

> I'd be interested to see who all here on the list gets their

counts done

> still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My counts have

steadily risen

> slowly....since it got down to 25 during the lymphoma couple years

back.

> I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the 200's even while

still

> taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I guess it varies from

person

> to person.

>

>

> Be well!

>

>

>

> paul

>

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting, that video doesn't seem to be available on Google anymore, just the

usual videos about HIV from the standard medical viewpoint. Think someone

doesn't want that info getting out or what?

-D

peter newman <petenewman2004@...> wrote:

If you have not seen the video HIV fact or Fraud, it may be in your

interest to do so. My viral load is way up there, but from my understanding this

is a meaningless figure, whereas the destruction of heart and or liver is not so

meaningless.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=73927148136819173 & q=HIV+Fact+or+Fiction

Jeanne Pruitt <italianjeannemamma@...> wrote:

,

Yes, I've been on ARVs sence 93. I had to juggle through some meds

till I found a combination that works great, but all in all, I'm

doing great. Other than some occasional nausea, I'm good. I've had

NO related illness or disease. I guess I'm not the norm, but I'm

here and I AM doing great. I've been raising two kids on my own all

this time and for the last three years have been dealing with

chronic kidney failure with dialysis three days a week. (Completely

unrelated to my HIV) I've got IGA nephropathy which is heredetary.

Anyway, all in all, I feel blessed and WELL.

My T-Cells are 320 and my viral load is 0. I get them tested about

every 3 months. Keep in touch.

Jeanne in Concord

>

>

>

>

> God I'm sick of all you people who think they have all the

answers,

> or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us REALLY know what

> the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell wouldnt be here. We all

> have to go through this in our own way. Searching for whatever

works

> for us. This group is a place, or at least I thought it was, where

> we could turn for information and then figure if it was right for

> us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for ME its the right

> decision, but I still like to come here just to see if there might

> be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people and just do your

own

> thing, it might not be for everyone, but just please stop all the

> judging.

> Sincerely,

> Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

>

>

> )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13 years and still

alive? I

> recall some dissies saying the meds were so toxic....by the 10th

year u'd

> be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called poisons and pushing up

> daisies (tongue in cheek).

>

> Good to see you going strong. Have you had any adverse effects or

share

> of side effects from the meds so far?(any serious illnesses - hiv

> related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far. I just had my

labs, but

> waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280. V-load under 50.

> Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i can

> naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and spiritual attunements,

etc.

>

> I'd be interested to see who all here on the list gets their

counts done

> still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My counts have

steadily risen

> slowly....since it got down to 25 during the lymphoma couple years

back.

> I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the 200's even while

still

> taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I guess it varies from

person

> to person.

>

>

> Be well!

>

>

>

> paul

>

>

[Guest guest]

Whoa. How about going to the home page of this group and reading

what this group is about. " Virus is a myth. Virus doesn't kill.

Treatment does. " I thought this was a site for people who have fired

their doctors and were forming their own mutual support group to ease

the transition to taking back their power and going from victims to

victors.

I have seen an approach that appears to work for everyone willing to

give it a fair try and I am here to share it. If you understood what

I understand, I'd hope you'd do the same thing.

I have to tell you, I'm sick and tired of hearing about t-cells and

viral loads as if they were relevant numbers. Time has shown what

the dissidents said from the get-go. These are both invalid surrogate

markers. There are plenty of web sites, sponsored directly or

indirectly by the drug companies with their billions of dollars,

where you can share this meaningless dribble with other victims. I

don't want to read about that shit here. This is supposed to be a

site for intelligent people dealing with health on an intelligent

level. There is enough confusion for people undoing a lifetime of

medical programming without having conversations that don't belong

here.

ly, I don't see how you can say your kidney problems aren't

related to your " HIV " problem. If they're in the same body, they're

connected. I'm sorry that you are a medical victim, but I suspect

your medical history predates " HIV/AIDS. " I can only tell you, as

one who has met (directly and indirectly) thousands of people who are

living proof that the medical model of " AIDS " is seriously flawed,

HIV/AIDS " can be everything the doctors say -- but only if you

believe in it.

It's a lot easier and more pleasant to be healthy.

Ed

http://sobehealthy.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > God I'm sick of all you people who think they have all the

> answers,

> > or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us REALLY know what

> > the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell wouldnt be here. We all

> > have to go through this in our own way. Searching for whatever

> works

> > for us. This group is a place, or at least I thought it was,

where

> > we could turn for information and then figure if it was right for

> > us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for ME its the right

> > decision, but I still like to come here just to see if there

might

> > be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people and just do your

> own

> > thing, it might not be for everyone, but just please stop all the

> > judging.

> > Sincerely,

> > Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

> >

> >

> > )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13 years and still

> alive? I

> > recall some dissies saying the meds were so toxic....by the 10th

> year u'd

> > be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called poisons and pushing up

> > daisies (tongue in cheek).

> >

> > Good to see you going strong. Have you had any adverse effects or

> share

> > of side effects from the meds so far?(any serious illnesses - hiv

> > related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far. I just had my

> labs, but

> > waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280. V-load under 50.

> > Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i can

> > naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and spiritual

attunements,

> etc.

> >

> > I'd be interested to see who all here on the list gets their

> counts done

> > still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My counts have

> steadily risen

> > slowly....since it got down to 25 during the lymphoma couple

years

> back.

> > I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the 200's even while

> still

> > taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I guess it varies from

> person

> > to person.

> >

> >

> > Be well!

> >

> >

> >

> > paul

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Whoa. How about going to the home page of this group and reading

what this group is about. " Virus is a myth. Virus doesn't kill.

Treatment does. " I thought this was a site for people who have fired

their doctors and were forming their own mutual support group to ease

the transition to taking back their power and going from victims to

victors.

I have seen an approach that appears to work for everyone willing to

give it a fair try and I am here to share it. If you understood what

I understand, I'd hope you'd do the same thing.

I have to tell you, I'm sick and tired of hearing about t-cells and

viral loads as if they were relevant numbers. Time has shown what

the dissidents said from the get-go. These are both invalid surrogate

markers. There are plenty of web sites, sponsored directly or

indirectly by the drug companies with their billions of dollars,

where you can share this meaningless dribble with other victims. I

don't want to read about that shit here. This is supposed to be a

site for intelligent people dealing with health on an intelligent

level. There is enough confusion for people undoing a lifetime of

medical programming without having conversations that don't belong

here.

ly, I don't see how you can say your kidney problems aren't

related to your " HIV " problem. If they're in the same body, they're

connected. I'm sorry that you are a medical victim, but I suspect

your medical history predates " HIV/AIDS. " I can only tell you, as

one who has met (directly and indirectly) thousands of people who are

living proof that the medical model of " AIDS " is seriously flawed,

HIV/AIDS " can be everything the doctors say -- but only if you

believe in it.

It's a lot easier and more pleasant to be healthy.

Ed

http://sobehealthy.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > God I'm sick of all you people who think they have all the

> answers,

> > or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us REALLY know what

> > the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell wouldnt be here. We all

> > have to go through this in our own way. Searching for whatever

> works

> > for us. This group is a place, or at least I thought it was,

where

> > we could turn for information and then figure if it was right for

> > us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for ME its the right

> > decision, but I still like to come here just to see if there

might

> > be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people and just do your

> own

> > thing, it might not be for everyone, but just please stop all the

> > judging.

> > Sincerely,

> > Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

> >

> >

> > )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13 years and still

> alive? I

> > recall some dissies saying the meds were so toxic....by the 10th

> year u'd

> > be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called poisons and pushing up

> > daisies (tongue in cheek).

> >

> > Good to see you going strong. Have you had any adverse effects or

> share

> > of side effects from the meds so far?(any serious illnesses - hiv

> > related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far. I just had my

> labs, but

> > waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280. V-load under 50.

> > Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i can

> > naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and spiritual

attunements,

> etc.

> >

> > I'd be interested to see who all here on the list gets their

> counts done

> > still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My counts have

> steadily risen

> > slowly....since it got down to 25 during the lymphoma couple

years

> back.

> > I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the 200's even while

> still

> > taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I guess it varies from

> person

> > to person.

> >

> >

> > Be well!

> >

> >

> >

> > paul

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

if you want to debate about if HIV virus is a myth or

not, I have seen many members here believing it until

they were sick from opportunistic infections where

they took the last resort, meds. I hope that I will

never have to take the meds as I am doing ozone

therapy, beck, rebounding and other herbs,

investigating Indian medicine, etc.. My viral load has

been declining, now at 28,000 from 140,000 a year ago

but so my CD4s, now at 185, whatever that means.

What about the fact that Maggiore(the

instigator of the dissident movement)'s daughter and

partner, both died of AIDS related opportunistic

infections?

I am not a believer of anything, just an observer and

think that it is good to never stop questioning and

researching until undeniable answers and solutions are

provided.

Now, has anyone had any success getting rid of

swollened lymph nodes? I have been rebounding on and

off, 10 minutes at a time for over a year now and it

did not change anything to my only lymph node at the

left base of my neck. Has anyone get any success in

improving their CD4 with spirulina, castor oil or any

other natural way?

This is the best place to share your success, whatever

they are.

Sylvain

--- <aidsisover@...> wrote:

> Whoa. How about going to the home page of this

> group and reading

> what this group is about. " Virus is a myth. Virus

> doesn't kill.

> Treatment does. " I thought this was a site for

> people who have fired

> their doctors and were forming their own mutual

> support group to ease

> the transition to taking back their power and going

> from victims to

> victors.

>

> I have seen an approach that appears to work for

> everyone willing to

> give it a fair try and I am here to share it. If

> you understood what

> I understand, I'd hope you'd do the same thing.

>

> I have to tell you, I'm sick and tired of hearing

> about t-cells and

> viral loads as if they were relevant numbers. Time

> has shown what

> the dissidents said from the get-go. These are both

> invalid surrogate

> markers. There are plenty of web sites, sponsored

> directly or

> indirectly by the drug companies with their billions

> of dollars,

> where you can share this meaningless dribble with

> other victims. I

> don't want to read about that shit here. This is

> supposed to be a

> site for intelligent people dealing with health on

> an intelligent

> level. There is enough confusion for people undoing

> a lifetime of

> medical programming without having conversations

> that don't belong

> here.

>

> ly, I don't see how you can say your kidney

> problems aren't

> related to your " HIV " problem. If they're in the

> same body, they're

> connected. I'm sorry that you are a medical victim,

> but I suspect

> your medical history predates " HIV/AIDS. " I can

> only tell you, as

> one who has met (directly and indirectly) thousands

> of people who are

> living proof that the medical model of " AIDS " is

> seriously flawed,

> HIV/AIDS " can be everything the doctors say -- but

> only if you

> believe in it.

>

> It's a lot easier and more pleasant to be healthy.

>

> Ed

>

> http://sobehealthy.com

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > God I'm sick of all you people who think they

> have all the

> > answers,

> > > or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us

> REALLY know what

> > > the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell

> wouldnt be here. We all

> > > have to go through this in our own way.

> Searching for whatever

> > works

> > > for us. This group is a place, or at least I

> thought it was,

> where

> > > we could turn for information and then figure if

> it was right for

> > > us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for

> ME its the right

> > > decision, but I still like to come here just to

> see if there

> might

> > > be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people

> and just do your

> > own

> > > thing, it might not be for everyone, but just

> please stop all the

> > > judging.

> > > Sincerely,

> > > Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

> > >

> > >

> > > )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13

> years and still

> > alive? I

> > > recall some dissies saying the meds were so

> toxic....by the 10th

> > year u'd

> > > be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called

> poisons and pushing up

> > > daisies (tongue in cheek).

> > >

> > > Good to see you going strong. Have you had any

> adverse effects or

> > share

> > > of side effects from the meds so far?(any

> serious illnesses - hiv

> > > related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far.

> I just had my

> > labs, but

> > > waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280.

> V-load under 50.

> > > Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i

> can

> > > naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and

> spiritual

> attunements,

> > etc.

> > >

> > > I'd be interested to see who all here on the

> list gets their

> > counts done

> > > still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My

> counts have

> > steadily risen

> > > slowly....since it got down to 25 during the

> lymphoma couple

> years

> > back.

> > > I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the

> 200's even while

> > still

> > > taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I

> guess it varies from

> > person

> > > to person.

> > >

> > >

> > > Be well!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > paul

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

Musically yours,

Sylvain Gagnon

www.sylvaingagnon.net

info@...

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Want to start your own business?

Learn how on Small Business.

http://smallbusiness./r-index

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

if you want to debate about if HIV virus is a myth or

not, I have seen many members here believing it until

they were sick from opportunistic infections where

they took the last resort, meds. I hope that I will

never have to take the meds as I am doing ozone

therapy, beck, rebounding and other herbs,

investigating Indian medicine, etc.. My viral load has

been declining, now at 28,000 from 140,000 a year ago

but so my CD4s, now at 185, whatever that means.

What about the fact that Maggiore(the

instigator of the dissident movement)'s daughter and

partner, both died of AIDS related opportunistic

infections?

I am not a believer of anything, just an observer and

think that it is good to never stop questioning and

researching until undeniable answers and solutions are

provided.

Now, has anyone had any success getting rid of

swollened lymph nodes? I have been rebounding on and

off, 10 minutes at a time for over a year now and it

did not change anything to my only lymph node at the

left base of my neck. Has anyone get any success in

improving their CD4 with spirulina, castor oil or any

other natural way?

This is the best place to share your success, whatever

they are.

Sylvain

--- <aidsisover@...> wrote:

> Whoa. How about going to the home page of this

> group and reading

> what this group is about. " Virus is a myth. Virus

> doesn't kill.

> Treatment does. " I thought this was a site for

> people who have fired

> their doctors and were forming their own mutual

> support group to ease

> the transition to taking back their power and going

> from victims to

> victors.

>

> I have seen an approach that appears to work for

> everyone willing to

> give it a fair try and I am here to share it. If

> you understood what

> I understand, I'd hope you'd do the same thing.

>

> I have to tell you, I'm sick and tired of hearing

> about t-cells and

> viral loads as if they were relevant numbers. Time

> has shown what

> the dissidents said from the get-go. These are both

> invalid surrogate

> markers. There are plenty of web sites, sponsored

> directly or

> indirectly by the drug companies with their billions

> of dollars,

> where you can share this meaningless dribble with

> other victims. I

> don't want to read about that shit here. This is

> supposed to be a

> site for intelligent people dealing with health on

> an intelligent

> level. There is enough confusion for people undoing

> a lifetime of

> medical programming without having conversations

> that don't belong

> here.

>

> ly, I don't see how you can say your kidney

> problems aren't

> related to your " HIV " problem. If they're in the

> same body, they're

> connected. I'm sorry that you are a medical victim,

> but I suspect

> your medical history predates " HIV/AIDS. " I can

> only tell you, as

> one who has met (directly and indirectly) thousands

> of people who are

> living proof that the medical model of " AIDS " is

> seriously flawed,

> HIV/AIDS " can be everything the doctors say -- but

> only if you

> believe in it.

>

> It's a lot easier and more pleasant to be healthy.

>

> Ed

>

> http://sobehealthy.com

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > God I'm sick of all you people who think they

> have all the

> > answers,

> > > or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us

> REALLY know what

> > > the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell

> wouldnt be here. We all

> > > have to go through this in our own way.

> Searching for whatever

> > works

> > > for us. This group is a place, or at least I

> thought it was,

> where

> > > we could turn for information and then figure if

> it was right for

> > > us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for

> ME its the right

> > > decision, but I still like to come here just to

> see if there

> might

> > > be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people

> and just do your

> > own

> > > thing, it might not be for everyone, but just

> please stop all the

> > > judging.

> > > Sincerely,

> > > Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

> > >

> > >

> > > )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13

> years and still

> > alive? I

> > > recall some dissies saying the meds were so

> toxic....by the 10th

> > year u'd

> > > be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called

> poisons and pushing up

> > > daisies (tongue in cheek).

> > >

> > > Good to see you going strong. Have you had any

> adverse effects or

> > share

> > > of side effects from the meds so far?(any

> serious illnesses - hiv

> > > related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far.

> I just had my

> > labs, but

> > > waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280.

> V-load under 50.

> > > Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i

> can

> > > naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and

> spiritual

> attunements,

> > etc.

> > >

> > > I'd be interested to see who all here on the

> list gets their

> > counts done

> > > still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My

> counts have

> > steadily risen

> > > slowly....since it got down to 25 during the

> lymphoma couple

> years

> > back.

> > > I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the

> 200's even while

> > still

> > > taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I

> guess it varies from

> > person

> > > to person.

> > >

> > >

> > > Be well!

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > paul

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

Musically yours,

Sylvain Gagnon

www.sylvaingagnon.net

info@...

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

Want to start your own business?

Learn how on Small Business.

http://smallbusiness./r-index

[Guest guest]

I've had it. Evidentally I'm not intelligent enough for this site.

The fact that I have survived this disease for 13 years obviously

means nothing to you that are so much smarter than me. I realize

that I am NOT in the right place when people are so judgemental and

so self righteous. Most of the people I've encountered hear are

pompous and arogant. I dont need that in my life, thanks for the

memories.

Jeanne in Conord

-- In cures for AIDS , Sylvain Gagnon <happytype@...>

wrote:

>

> Dear ,

> if you want to debate about if HIV virus is a myth or

> not, I have seen many members here believing it until

> they were sick from opportunistic infections where

> they took the last resort, meds. I hope that I will

> never have to take the meds as I am doing ozone

> therapy, beck, rebounding and other herbs,

> investigating Indian medicine, etc.. My viral load has

> been declining, now at 28,000 from 140,000 a year ago

> but so my CD4s, now at 185, whatever that means.

> What about the fact that Maggiore(the

> instigator of the dissident movement)'s daughter and

> partner, both died of AIDS related opportunistic

> infections?

> I am not a believer of anything, just an observer and

> think that it is good to never stop questioning and

> researching until undeniable answers and solutions are

> provided.

> Now, has anyone had any success getting rid of

> swollened lymph nodes? I have been rebounding on and

> off, 10 minutes at a time for over a year now and it

> did not change anything to my only lymph node at the

> left base of my neck. Has anyone get any success in

> improving their CD4 with spirulina, castor oil or any

> other natural way?

> This is the best place to share your success, whatever

> they are.

> Sylvain

>

> --- <aidsisover@...> wrote:

>

> > Whoa. How about going to the home page of this

> > group and reading

> > what this group is about. " Virus is a myth. Virus

> > doesn't kill.

> > Treatment does. " I thought this was a site for

> > people who have fired

> > their doctors and were forming their own mutual

> > support group to ease

> > the transition to taking back their power and going

> > from victims to

> > victors.

> >

> > I have seen an approach that appears to work for

> > everyone willing to

> > give it a fair try and I am here to share it. If

> > you understood what

> > I understand, I'd hope you'd do the same thing.

> >

> > I have to tell you, I'm sick and tired of hearing

> > about t-cells and

> > viral loads as if they were relevant numbers. Time

> > has shown what

> > the dissidents said from the get-go. These are both

> > invalid surrogate

> > markers. There are plenty of web sites, sponsored

> > directly or

> > indirectly by the drug companies with their billions

> > of dollars,

> > where you can share this meaningless dribble with

> > other victims. I

> > don't want to read about that shit here. This is

> > supposed to be a

> > site for intelligent people dealing with health on

> > an intelligent

> > level. There is enough confusion for people undoing

> > a lifetime of

> > medical programming without having conversations

> > that don't belong

> > here.

> >

> > ly, I don't see how you can say your kidney

> > problems aren't

> > related to your " HIV " problem. If they're in the

> > same body, they're

> > connected. I'm sorry that you are a medical victim,

> > but I suspect

> > your medical history predates " HIV/AIDS. " I can

> > only tell you, as

> > one who has met (directly and indirectly) thousands

> > of people who are

> > living proof that the medical model of " AIDS " is

> > seriously flawed,

> > HIV/AIDS " can be everything the doctors say -- but

> > only if you

> > believe in it.

> >

> > It's a lot easier and more pleasant to be healthy.

> >

> > Ed

> >

> > http://sobehealthy.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > God I'm sick of all you people who think they

> > have all the

> > > answers,

> > > > or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us

> > REALLY know what

> > > > the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell

> > wouldnt be here. We all

> > > > have to go through this in our own way.

> > Searching for whatever

> > > works

> > > > for us. This group is a place, or at least I

> > thought it was,

> > where

> > > > we could turn for information and then figure if

> > it was right for

> > > > us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for

> > ME its the right

> > > > decision, but I still like to come here just to

> > see if there

> > might

> > > > be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people

> > and just do your

> > > own

> > > > thing, it might not be for everyone, but just

> > please stop all the

> > > > judging.

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > > Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13

> > years and still

> > > alive? I

> > > > recall some dissies saying the meds were so

> > toxic....by the 10th

> > > year u'd

> > > > be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called

> > poisons and pushing up

> > > > daisies (tongue in cheek).

> > > >

> > > > Good to see you going strong. Have you had any

> > adverse effects or

> > > share

> > > > of side effects from the meds so far?(any

> > serious illnesses - hiv

> > > > related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far.

> > I just had my

> > > labs, but

> > > > waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280.

> > V-load under 50.

> > > > Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i

> > can

> > > > naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and

> > spiritual

> > attunements,

> > > etc.

> > > >

> > > > I'd be interested to see who all here on the

> > list gets their

> > > counts done

> > > > still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My

> > counts have

> > > steadily risen

> > > > slowly....since it got down to 25 during the

> > lymphoma couple

> > years

> > > back.

> > > > I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the

> > 200's even while

> > > still

> > > > taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I

> > guess it varies from

> > > person

> > > > to person.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Be well!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > paul

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> Musically yours,

> Sylvain Gagnon

> www.sylvaingagnon.net

> info@...

>

>

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> Want to start your own business?

> Learn how on Small Business.

> http://smallbusiness./r-index

>

[Guest guest]

I've had it. Evidentally I'm not intelligent enough for this site.

The fact that I have survived this disease for 13 years obviously

means nothing to you that are so much smarter than me. I realize

that I am NOT in the right place when people are so judgemental and

so self righteous. Most of the people I've encountered hear are

pompous and arogant. I dont need that in my life, thanks for the

memories.

Jeanne in Conord

-- In cures for AIDS , Sylvain Gagnon <happytype@...>

wrote:

>

> Dear ,

> if you want to debate about if HIV virus is a myth or

> not, I have seen many members here believing it until

> they were sick from opportunistic infections where

> they took the last resort, meds. I hope that I will

> never have to take the meds as I am doing ozone

> therapy, beck, rebounding and other herbs,

> investigating Indian medicine, etc.. My viral load has

> been declining, now at 28,000 from 140,000 a year ago

> but so my CD4s, now at 185, whatever that means.

> What about the fact that Maggiore(the

> instigator of the dissident movement)'s daughter and

> partner, both died of AIDS related opportunistic

> infections?

> I am not a believer of anything, just an observer and

> think that it is good to never stop questioning and

> researching until undeniable answers and solutions are

> provided.

> Now, has anyone had any success getting rid of

> swollened lymph nodes? I have been rebounding on and

> off, 10 minutes at a time for over a year now and it

> did not change anything to my only lymph node at the

> left base of my neck. Has anyone get any success in

> improving their CD4 with spirulina, castor oil or any

> other natural way?

> This is the best place to share your success, whatever

> they are.

> Sylvain

>

> --- <aidsisover@...> wrote:

>

> > Whoa. How about going to the home page of this

> > group and reading

> > what this group is about. " Virus is a myth. Virus

> > doesn't kill.

> > Treatment does. " I thought this was a site for

> > people who have fired

> > their doctors and were forming their own mutual

> > support group to ease

> > the transition to taking back their power and going

> > from victims to

> > victors.

> >

> > I have seen an approach that appears to work for

> > everyone willing to

> > give it a fair try and I am here to share it. If

> > you understood what

> > I understand, I'd hope you'd do the same thing.

> >

> > I have to tell you, I'm sick and tired of hearing

> > about t-cells and

> > viral loads as if they were relevant numbers. Time

> > has shown what

> > the dissidents said from the get-go. These are both

> > invalid surrogate

> > markers. There are plenty of web sites, sponsored

> > directly or

> > indirectly by the drug companies with their billions

> > of dollars,

> > where you can share this meaningless dribble with

> > other victims. I

> > don't want to read about that shit here. This is

> > supposed to be a

> > site for intelligent people dealing with health on

> > an intelligent

> > level. There is enough confusion for people undoing

> > a lifetime of

> > medical programming without having conversations

> > that don't belong

> > here.

> >

> > ly, I don't see how you can say your kidney

> > problems aren't

> > related to your " HIV " problem. If they're in the

> > same body, they're

> > connected. I'm sorry that you are a medical victim,

> > but I suspect

> > your medical history predates " HIV/AIDS. " I can

> > only tell you, as

> > one who has met (directly and indirectly) thousands

> > of people who are

> > living proof that the medical model of " AIDS " is

> > seriously flawed,

> > HIV/AIDS " can be everything the doctors say -- but

> > only if you

> > believe in it.

> >

> > It's a lot easier and more pleasant to be healthy.

> >

> > Ed

> >

> > http://sobehealthy.com

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > God I'm sick of all you people who think they

> > have all the

> > > answers,

> > > > or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us

> > REALLY know what

> > > > the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell

> > wouldnt be here. We all

> > > > have to go through this in our own way.

> > Searching for whatever

> > > works

> > > > for us. This group is a place, or at least I

> > thought it was,

> > where

> > > > we could turn for information and then figure if

> > it was right for

> > > > us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for

> > ME its the right

> > > > decision, but I still like to come here just to

> > see if there

> > might

> > > > be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people

> > and just do your

> > > own

> > > > thing, it might not be for everyone, but just

> > please stop all the

> > > > judging.

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > > Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13

> > years and still

> > > alive? I

> > > > recall some dissies saying the meds were so

> > toxic....by the 10th

> > > year u'd

> > > > be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called

> > poisons and pushing up

> > > > daisies (tongue in cheek).

> > > >

> > > > Good to see you going strong. Have you had any

> > adverse effects or

> > > share

> > > > of side effects from the meds so far?(any

> > serious illnesses - hiv

> > > > related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far.

> > I just had my

> > > labs, but

> > > > waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280.

> > V-load under 50.

> > > > Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i

> > can

> > > > naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and

> > spiritual

> > attunements,

> > > etc.

> > > >

> > > > I'd be interested to see who all here on the

> > list gets their

> > > counts done

> > > > still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My

> > counts have

> > > steadily risen

> > > > slowly....since it got down to 25 during the

> > lymphoma couple

> > years

> > > back.

> > > > I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the

> > 200's even while

> > > still

> > > > taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I

> > guess it varies from

> > > person

> > > > to person.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Be well!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > paul

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> Musically yours,

> Sylvain Gagnon

> www.sylvaingagnon.net

> info@...

>

>

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_______________

> Want to start your own business?

> Learn how on Small Business.

> http://smallbusiness./r-index

>

[Guest guest]

Sylvain,

I would like to clarify a point you made here. Maggiore

did not lose her daughter to an AIDS related opportunistic

infection. I'm not sure who you are referring to as her partner as

well? Her husband is alive and healthy and still hiv negative (along

with her 8 year old son). You will find that an independent

toxicology report she had done on her daugher shows the child died of

a reaction to an antibiotic and not to PCP. Check out her website

for more information, www.aliveandwell.org. I find it interesting

that the coroner's office will not turn over any documentation

proving the child was hiv positive and that after seeing 3, (yes 3)

pediatricians, that nothing was ever mentioned about the child's

lungs. I wonder how she could have died from pneumonia?

Best of luck in your journey.

Andy

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > God I'm sick of all you people who think they

> > have all the

> > > answers,

> > > > or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us

> > REALLY know what

> > > > the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell

> > wouldnt be here. We all

> > > > have to go through this in our own way.

> > Searching for whatever

> > > works

> > > > for us. This group is a place, or at least I

> > thought it was,

> > where

> > > > we could turn for information and then figure if

> > it was right for

> > > > us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for

> > ME its the right

> > > > decision, but I still like to come here just to

> > see if there

> > might

> > > > be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people

> > and just do your

> > > own

> > > > thing, it might not be for everyone, but just

> > please stop all the

> > > > judging.

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > > Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13

> > years and still

> > > alive? I

> > > > recall some dissies saying the meds were so

> > toxic....by the 10th

> > > year u'd

> > > > be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called

> > poisons and pushing up

> > > > daisies (tongue in cheek).

> > > >

> > > > Good to see you going strong. Have you had any

> > adverse effects or

> > > share

> > > > of side effects from the meds so far?(any

> > serious illnesses - hiv

> > > > related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far.

> > I just had my

> > > labs, but

> > > > waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280.

> > V-load under 50.

> > > > Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i

> > can

> > > > naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and

> > spiritual

> > attunements,

> > > etc.

> > > >

> > > > I'd be interested to see who all here on the

> > list gets their

> > > counts done

> > > > still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My

> > counts have

> > > steadily risen

> > > > slowly....since it got down to 25 during the

> > lymphoma couple

> > years

> > > back.

> > > > I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the

> > 200's even while

> > > still

> > > > taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I

> > guess it varies from

> > > person

> > > > to person.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Be well!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > paul

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> Musically yours,

> Sylvain Gagnon

> www.sylvaingagnon.net

> info@...

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

> Want to start your own business?

> Learn how on Small Business.

> http://smallbusiness./r-index

>

[Guest guest]

Sylvain,

I would like to clarify a point you made here. Maggiore

did not lose her daughter to an AIDS related opportunistic

infection. I'm not sure who you are referring to as her partner as

well? Her husband is alive and healthy and still hiv negative (along

with her 8 year old son). You will find that an independent

toxicology report she had done on her daugher shows the child died of

a reaction to an antibiotic and not to PCP. Check out her website

for more information, www.aliveandwell.org. I find it interesting

that the coroner's office will not turn over any documentation

proving the child was hiv positive and that after seeing 3, (yes 3)

pediatricians, that nothing was ever mentioned about the child's

lungs. I wonder how she could have died from pneumonia?

Best of luck in your journey.

Andy

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > God I'm sick of all you people who think they

> > have all the

> > > answers,

> > > > or at least the only CORRECT answers. Who of us

> > REALLY know what

> > > > the answer is. If we did, we sure as hell

> > wouldnt be here. We all

> > > > have to go through this in our own way.

> > Searching for whatever

> > > works

> > > > for us. This group is a place, or at least I

> > thought it was,

> > where

> > > > we could turn for information and then figure if

> > it was right for

> > > > us. I take ARVs and have for 13 years, and for

> > ME its the right

> > > > decision, but I still like to come here just to

> > see if there

> > might

> > > > be an avenue right for me. Quit judging people

> > and just do your

> > > own

> > > > thing, it might not be for everyone, but just

> > please stop all the

> > > > judging.

> > > > Sincerely,

> > > > Jeanne Pruitt, Concord CA

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > )== Hi Jeanne.....wow, u've taken ARV's for 13

> > years and still

> > > alive? I

> > > > recall some dissies saying the meds were so

> > toxic....by the 10th

> > > year u'd

> > > > be pretty well 'dis-eased' by the so called

> > poisons and pushing up

> > > > daisies (tongue in cheek).

> > > >

> > > > Good to see you going strong. Have you had any

> > adverse effects or

> > > share

> > > > of side effects from the meds so far?(any

> > serious illnesses - hiv

> > > > related?) I've been on them 2-3 years so far.

> > I just had my

> > > labs, but

> > > > waiting for results - my last cd4 count was 280.

> > V-load under 50.

> > > > Overall.....feeling fairly well...and do what i

> > can

> > > > naturally/diet-wise/exercise and mental and

> > spiritual

> > attunements,

> > > etc.

> > > >

> > > > I'd be interested to see who all here on the

> > list gets their

> > > counts done

> > > > still - and how your cd-4 history has been. My

> > counts have

> > > steadily risen

> > > > slowly....since it got down to 25 during the

> > lymphoma couple

> > years

> > > back.

> > > > I wonder if counts from some folks stay in the

> > 200's even while

> > > still

> > > > taking the meds...or if they ever go down. I

> > guess it varies from

> > > person

> > > > to person.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Be well!

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > paul

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> Musically yours,

> Sylvain Gagnon

> www.sylvaingagnon.net

> info@...

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

> Want to start your own business?

> Learn how on Small Business.

> http://smallbusiness./r-index

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Sylvain,

>

> I would like to clarify a point you made here. Maggiore

> did not lose her daughter to an AIDS related opportunistic

> infection. I'm not sure who you are referring to as her partner

as

> well? Her husband is alive and healthy and still hiv negative

(along

> with her 8 year old son). You will find that an independent

> toxicology report she had done on her daugher shows the child died

of

> a reaction to an antibiotic and not to PCP. Check out her website

> for more information, www.aliveandwell.org. I find it interesting

> that the coroner's office will not turn over any documentation

> proving the child was hiv positive and that after seeing 3, (yes

3)

> pediatricians, that nothing was ever mentioned about the child's

> lungs. I wonder how she could have died from pneumonia?

>

> Best of luck in your journey.

>

> Andy

Dear Andy, I wouldn't call that toxicology report

exactly " independent " . Interestingly enough, it was commissioned by

Maggiore to Mr. M.Al-Bayati, an old-time member of the board of

Alive & Well. Call that independent....

The following is taken from http://oracknows.blogspot.com, a blog of

a medical scientist.

" Maggiore, the HIV-positive mother and high profile

HIV/AIDS denialist who refused to take AZT to prevent maternal-fetal

transmission of the virus, or even to test her child for HIV, has

gotten fellow HIV denialist Dr. Mohammed Al-Bayati to look at the

L.A. County Coroner's report for her daughter's autopsy. Not

surprisingly, Dr. Al-Bayati is claiming that the coroner got it all

wrong and that Eliza Jane didn't die of AIDS-related pneumonia as

the report concluded, leading Dean to go into spasms of self-

righteous rage and claim " that the L.A. County coroner and the Los

Angeles Times were and are guilty of a political diagnosis in order

to grandstand. "

Well, knock me over with a feather! Who could possibly have seen

that one coming? The only thing that surprised me is that it took so

long to dig up someone to " refute " the coroner's report.

One thing that struck me right away is that Dean failed to mention

other medical bloggers who agreed with my position and said so in

their blog, bloggers such as Gordon's Notes, Red State Moron,

SupportVaccination.org, or even Dr. Trent McBride, a pathology

resident who blogs on Catallarchy and who also pointed out that

finding Pneumocystis carinii by silver stain on autopsy histology of

the lungs of someone not having AIDS or other significant

immunosuppression is exceedingly rare. (I wonder if Dean considers

these other bloggers writing on this case to be lacking in honesty

as well.) Another thing that struck me is that, in the comments Dean

whined about ad hominem attacks against his expert (Dr. Al-Bayati),

after having himself launched an ad hominem attack on

(whom, I conceded, had once taken what I considered to be a

cheap shot at Dean over an admission Dean had made) and others. No

doubt Dean fails to see the irony. Apparently ad hominems are OK

only as long as it is Dean--who has on occasion been known to refer

to his critics by epithets like " sad little losers " --launching the

ad hominem.

Nonetheless, at the risk of my being accused of retreating to

the " last refuge of the pseudoscientist " (as Dean himself likes to

put it), the ad hominem attack, it is nonetheless necessary to take

a brief look at Dr. Al-Bayati before addressing the substance of

report itself. (Don't worry, I'll get to the substance soon enough.)

Given that Dean seems to like to question the motivations of those

who don't buy into his " HIV dissident " line and to argue from

authority a lot (he is quite enamored of his friend Duesberg's

credentials and those of another prominent AIDS denialist, Harvey

Bialy and is not at all shy about waving them in front of him--

metaphorically speaking--like a talisman to ward off attacks against

his pseudoscientific posturing), I consider it entirely appropriate

to examine this particular " expert " and his qualifications and

motivations before going on to discuss the contents of his report.

So who is Mohammed Ali Al-Bayati, PhD, DABT, DABVT? He represents

himself as a toxicologist and " pathologist. " However, most

pathologists who deal with HIV are MD's. So what kind of pathologist

is he? " DABVT " stands for Diplomate, American Board of Veterinary

Toxicology; so basically he's a veterinary pathologist and

toxicologist. Whether that means he's qualified to evaluate

postmortem findings in AIDS, I don't know. He has a few papers

published in the peer-reviewed medical literature, but none of them

concern HIV; so his publication history doesn't help me evaluate

him. He does, however, have a very obvious and undeniable bias. Dean

will no doubt characterize it as an ad hominem attack to point out

Dr. Al-Bayati's bias, but it's not at all inappropriate in this case

to mention his prominent listing on the infamous Virus Myth website

or his book Get All the Facts: HIV Does Not Cause AIDS. Also, Dr. Al-

Bayati runs a company called Toxi-Health International, which,

according to its website, provides expert witness services and " can

evaluate the health effect resulting from acute and chronic

exposure " to various agents, " including medication reactions,

adverse reactions to vaccines (shades of the Geiers!), pesticides,

and a variety of other compounds. No doubt Dean will lambaste me for

even mentioning such things. Tough. If Dean considers it not to be

an ad hominem attack to blithely accuse the L.A. County Coroner and

L.A. Times without evidence of making " a political diagnosis in

order to grandstand, " I consider it acceptable to point out an

obvious bias in the source Dean chooses to use to make the case that

the autopsy findings were incorrect.

As I've said before, as long as you're not just lobbing insults at

your opponent, ad hominem arguments are not always inappropriate,

particularly when they point out a clear bias that any person

evaluating both sides of an argument should be aware of. However,

they are not sufficient. The substance of an argument must be

addressed as well. So, without further ado, though, let's get to the

meat of the matter, shall we? Unfortunately, Dean provided no link

to the original coroner's report (apparently it is not publicly

available); so I shall have to rely on Dr. Al-Bayati's

characterization of the report. Fortunately, that's enough to sink

him.

The first thing I noticed reading Dr. Al-Bayati's report is that it

appears not to be intended for a scientific audience. (Perhaps this

is why Dean found it so compelling, assuming he actually read the

whole thing.) Instead, it is constructed more like a legal document

designed to cast " reasonable " doubt on the coroner's conclusion that

AIDS-related pneumonia was the cause of Eliza Jane's death, rather

than actually putting together a coherent case for an alternate

explanation. Without ever having seen the body or any of the raw

data from the autopsy, Dr. Al-Bayati dives right in. One

particularly egregious example of his style is that he lambastes the

coroner for not testing for a certain virus (more about this below),

and then confidently concludes that Eliza Jane had that virus and

not HIV, even though he couldn't possibly make such a conclusion

without the results of the very test that he criticizes the coroner

for not having done in the first place! Before I myself dive in,

however, let's summarize the autopsy conclusions as Dr. Al-Bayati

reports them:

Pneumocystis carinii was found in Eliza Jane's lungs by Gomori

methenamine silver staining in association with pink foamy casts in

the alveoli. The lungs were also edematous (water-logged).

Eliza Jane was mildly neutropenic (low neutrophil--a type of white

blood cell--count) and profoundly anemic (low red blood cell count)

Eliza Jane's brain contained throughout its white matter with

relative sparing of cortex a number of variable-sized microglial

nodules characterized by multinucleate giant cells associated with

moderate pallor and myelination, occasional macrophages, and and

angiocentric pattern. These lesions stained positive by

immunohistochemistry (IHC) for the HIV core p24 protein, a finding

consistent with HIV encephalitis.

There was atrophy of the spleen and thymus

There was enlargement of the liver with fatty infiltrate of the

cells (steatosis) and ascites

Dr. Al-Bayati then tries to " refute " each of these findings, using a

variety of handwaving techniques and " might have beens " that truly

astound. One thing that puzzled me, though, was why he thought it so

important to refute the finding that HIV was present at all. After

all, if, as Dr. Al-Bayati clearly believes very strongly, HIV does

not cause AIDS, then why not just come right out and argue that in

his report? Why not just argue that AIDS couldn't possibly have

killed Eliza Jane and that the HIV protein detected in her brain was

a red herring? Heck, why doesn't Dean just argue that?

But I digress.

Dr. Al-Bayati concedes that P. carinii, an AIDS-defining organism,

was present in Eliza Jane's lungs but tries to wave this finding

away by pointing out that there was not a " pneumonia " because no

inflammation was observed, citing a definition in a pathology

textbook (a technique not unlike arguing about technical words using

dictionary definitions). He repeats this again and again ad nauseam.

He also states that P. carinii is ubiquitous, only causing disease

in immunosuppressed patients. There are couple of problems with

these arguments. First, immunosuppressed AIDS patients tend not to

be able to mount a very effective inflammatory response to

infection. Indeed, it has been noted that, in HIV infection, PCP

pneumonia provokes fewer inflammatory cells and that PCP is worse in

patients immunosuppressed by other causes as their immune system

recovers and starts attacking the organism, causing inflammation.

(That's one reason why the chest X-ray findings and physical exam

findings can be so variable.) The one argument Dr. Al-Bayati makes

in this context that isn't totally off the wall is that PCP can

occur due to immunosuppression from other causes, and he cites

several references that show that PCP can occur in people without

HIV if they are immunosuppressed for other reasons. Of course, this

line of argument totally begs the question of what the cause of this

Eliza Jane's profound immunosuppression was in the first place if it

wasn't HIV infection. Second, as Dr. McBride pointed out, for P.

carinii to be detected in routine tissue samples at autopsy, there

have to be a lot of organisms there. In immunocompetent individuals,

there simply aren't enough bugs to show up on silver stain. Given

that the HIV protein detected in the brain implicates an obvious

cause for the immunosuppression that led to the presence of so much

P. carinii in Eliza Jane's lungs, it's hard not to conclude that

Eliza Jane had AIDS-associated PCP. Dr. Al-Bayati clearly realized

that he had to try to throw doubt on that finding.

And how does he try to do that? Disputing the findings of an

experienced neuropathologist, Dr. Maurice A. Verity of UCLA, who

examined the sections of Eliza Jane's brain, Dr. Al-Bayati argues

that the brain lesions seen are nonspecific and that the finding of

the HIV p24 protein on IHC must have been a false-positive. He

points out a paper from 1992 indicating a high level of false

positivity of this test in the presence of inflammation. Tellingly,

however, despite listing the numbers and types of tissues stained in

the study (which included only 3 brains from HIV-positive patients

and one brain without HIV), he does not cite the percentage of false

positive results reported in the paper, only that it is " common. " (I

couldn't get the paper online to check myself, because the online

archives only go back to 2000.) The problem with this line of

argument is that it's not enough just to say that this " might " have

been a false positive using references that, being 13 years old, may

not even be relevant to how IHC for HIV proteins is done today. He

has to show compelling reason that it was, rather than hand-waving

and saying that some combination of a viral infection and/or an

allergic reaction to amoxicillin caused this (see below). Even Dr.

Al-Bayati appears to realize this shortcoming.

And that's where his strangest argument of all comes in.

There's a saying in medicine that, when you hear hoofbeats you don't

look for zebras. (A zebra is medical slang for a rare or highly

unlikely diagnosis.) Yes, occasionally it you will find a zebra, but

the vast majority of the time you will not. Consequently, when one

hears hoofbeats from a tragic case of a dead child of an HIV-

positive mother who was found to have profound anemia, PCP, and

encephalitic lesions with HIV proteins detected in them, by far the

most likely diagnosis is AIDS. Indeed, in the differential

diagnosis, the first ten diagnoses in the differential would be

AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, and then--very

far down the line in probabilities--everything else. Given this,

it's not surprising that, in his rebuttal, Dr. Al-Bayati hears not

one, but at least two zebras approaching.

Which zebras, though? The first one is erythrocytic aplastic crisis

due to infection with parvovirus B19 (PVB19, the virus mentioned

above), of course! Shouldn't it have been obvious? He bases this

speculation on Eliza Jane's anemia, encephalitis, upper respiratory

infection, and atrophy of the spleen and thymus. I'll give him

props, though. This is a clever gambit, because this particular

virus is common enough that a significant percentage of children

have been exposed to it, meaning that there's a reasonable

probability that antibodies to it would be found if looked for,

whether it was this virus that actually caused Eliza Jane's death or

not. Let's look at this claim a little more closely.

PVB19 is a parvovirus that is fairly common and can cause upper

respiratory infections, erythema infectiosum, arthritis and

arthralgias, and transient aplastic crisis. Dr. Al-Bayati makes much

of the ability of this virus to cause anemia by transiently

suppressing the progenitor cells that develop into red blood cells

and blames infection with this virus for Eliza Jane's profound

anemia. He also attributes Eliza Jane's encephalitis and bone marrow

atrophy to infection with this virus. However, he neglects the

observation that PVB19 is rarely much of a problem in healthy

individuals. Severe anemia secondary to PVB19 usually only occurs in

patients with a pre-existing anemia or pre-existing destruction of

red blood cells and who therefore require a high level of

reticulocyte production to keep their blood counts up. Conditions in

which this can be a problem include chronic hemolytic anemias,

sickle cell anemia, thalassemia, acute hemorrhage, and iron

deficiency anemia, all of which cause red blood cell loss requiring

replacement. Also, severe infections of the bone marrow with PVB19

causing aplastic anemia are rare aside from patients with pre-

existing immunosuppression, such as transplant recipients, patients

with malignancy, and, of course, patients with HIV. In such

patients, PVB19 infection can result in severe, prolonged,

recurrent, or even permanent anemia. Dr. Al-Bayati does point out a

couple of case reports of a aplastic anemia due to PVB19 in

immunocompetent individuals. As far as I can find, there are no

decent-sized series reported, however, only a few isolated case

reports. This paucity of reports that PVB19 is a fairly rare cause

of aplastic anemia in healthy individuals. It is, of course,

possible that PVB19 infection caused Eliza Jane's serious anemia

(that's where " reasonable doubt " comes in). However, even if it had,

given what is known about this strain of parvovirus, a far more

likely explanation would be that the virus caused Eliza Jane's

anemia because of immunosuppression secondary to her HIV infection.

Indeed, case reports even suggest that anemia in AIDS patients due

to PVB19 will improve with antiretroviral therapy.

The second zebra is a severe amoxicillin hypersensitivity. (An

amoxicillin allergic reaction in and of itself is not a zebra, but

it is in the context of this particular case.) Never mind that Eliza

Jane had, as was emphasized in the report, never been exposed to

antibiotics before and that her clinical course does not seem

consistent with a hypersensitivity reaction. Never mind that there

was no eosinophilia, no urticaria, or no other stigmata of an

allergic reaction mentioned in Dr. Al-Bayati's report (and you can

bet that, had any of them been there, he would have mentioned them

prominently). Amoxicillin hypersensitivity was also blamed for Eliza

Jane's steatosis. It is true that amoxicillin-clavulanate has been

associated with hepatocellular, cholestatic, granulomatous, or focal

destructive cholangiopathy (all types of liver damage), and

references are cited showing this. However, one would think that Dr.

Al-Bayati would know that steatosis (a fatty infiltrate of the liver

cells) is not the same thing as any of these. Moreover, the

pathology report did not state that Eliza Jane's liver had any of

the more common manifestations of amoxicillin-clavulanate-induced

liver injury, casting further doubt on the antibiotic as the cause.

(Drugs more classically associated with steatosis include valproic

acid, tetracycline, amiodarone, and aspirin, not amoxicillin-

clavulanate. Indeed, a PubMed search on " steatosis "

and " amoxicillin " failed to turn up a single reference.) I didn't

see any of Dr. Al-Bayati's references supporting his implication

that amoxicillin could cause steatosis within a day of exposure.

Clearly, the steatosis must have been a pre-existing condition. As

for the pulmonary edema and ascites reported, that could be due to

allergic reaction, septic shock from an ear infection,

cardiopulmonary collapse from whatever cause, or a number of other

factors, but in the context of Eliza Jane's HIV infection, rapid

deterioriation, and cardiovascular collapse, it fits.

The bottom line is that you can compare these two sets of

conclusions about what caused Eliza Jane's death and decide which

seems more plausible. The first, the coroner's report, looks at a

child of an HIV-positive mother who refused to take AZT during

pregnancy, breast-fed her child even though that is known to

increase the rate of transmission of HIV, and refused to have her

child tested for HIV, a child who collapsed after upper respiratory

and ear infections, whose autopsy findings showed HIV encephalitis,

P. carinii in the lungs, and severe anemia. Given such findings,

it's hard not to conclude that Eliza Jane died of AIDS

complications. (Whether or not Dean's contention that the coroner

had some sort of horrendous bias or was grandstanding is true, I

cannot say, but certainly Dean hasn't provided any compelling

evidence that he was.) The second hypothesis, promulgated by an

HIV " dissident " with a definite axe to grind, requires us to believe

in not just one, but three, highly unlikely occurrences (plus one

simply unlikely occurence), namely:

A previously completely healthy girl developed PVB19 infection

leading to both encephalitis and aplastic anemia (possible, but

highly unlikely, and, even if PVB19 were found, it would be far more

likely that it was able to cause anemia because of immunosuppression

due to AIDS).

This same girl also developed an acute allergic reaction to

amoxicillin that led to cardiovascular collapse and--oh, by the way--

also caused steatosis of the liver within a day after starting the

drug, the steatosis being something even Dr. Al-Bayati's own

references do not seem to support as being likely.

This same otherwise healthy girl had sufficient quantity of P.

carinii in her lungs to show up on Gomori methenamine silver

staining at her autopsy.

The medical examiner and neuropathologist either botched the

staining for the p24 protein (or that it was a false positive) and

an experienced neuropathologist didn't know the pitfalls of the

diagnosis of HIV encephalitis using brain tissue sections.

A veritable herd of zebras indeed. To believe Dr. Al-Bayati's

scenario, you have to believe that at least four very unlikely

things happened in the same case, rather than the very likely

conclusion (based on the autopsy findings) that AIDS killed Eliza

Jane.

Not surprisingly, credulous guy that he is when it comes to anything

that supports HIV denialism, Dean does exactly what he accuses

of and " sucks down any codswollop he's fed on this

subject and spews it back out on command. " No doubt Dean will likely

accuse me of the same and/or consider my response to him to

be " dishonest " or possibly lacking class. We'll see. Part of the

reason I haven't addressed Dean's " skepticism " about AIDS much

before is because observing him pontificate on AIDS has taught me

that arguing with him on this issue is completely pointless. Quite

frankly, even in this instance, it's unlikely that I would have

bothered to respond if Dean hadn't annoyed me so much by impugning

my honesty.

In the meantime, I plan on submitting this to Grand Rounds this

week. (That's about as close to " peer review " as you can get in the

blogosphere.) I'm also very interested in what other doctors,

scientists, and medbloggers have to say about this. I'm not an AIDS

expert, but a lot of the stuff in Dr. Al-Bayati's report is so off

the wall that it didn't take much to find the inconsistencies. (And

if I, a knowledgeable non-expert, can pick the flaws apart, imagine

what a real expert could do.) Nonetheless, if I got something

grievously wrong that calls into question my analysis, I'd like my

peers to let me know.

ADDENDUM: An update including the opinions of two additional

physicians has been posted here. They cover a lot of the same

ground, but from different viewpoints and different areas of

expertise and, when combined, present a truly devastating rebuttal

to Dr. Al-Bayati's " report. "

Follow some letters:

" I have read in depth articles published by Dr. Duesberg, a cell

biologist and articles from Dr. Mohammed Ali Bayati; a toxocoligist;

who both claim that HIV in itself is not the cause of AIDS. While, I

realize this is a huge debate and controversial issue, one has to

admit that some of their findings and conclusions are compelling.

They claim that HIV alone does not cause AIDS but that people with

HIV who take medications such as certain types of steroid

medications and antiretroviral medications, illicit drugs like

cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, poppers (nitrates), or people who are

malnourished are suppressing their immune systems greatly and that

THIS is the co-factor that leads to AIDS. Can you elaborate on this

issue a bit or on Dr. Duesberg or Dr. Mohammed Ali Bayati's findings

and/or conclusions?? This is a very important topic for me because

after reading their articles, I want to stay away from those

possible co-factors at all costs to keep my immune system healthy!!

Response from Dr. Frascino

Hello,

No, this is not a huge debate.

No, this is not a controversial issue (if one accepts scientific

fact rather than science-fiction myths).

No, Duesberg (and his crackpot cronies) do not have " findings and

conclusions " that are compelling.

I'm always amused that anyone falls for this poppycock anymore.

(Sorry, but to do so is to be both gullible and woefully

misinformed!)

We have been studying HIV, the cause of AIDS, for more than a

quarter of a century. We can grow it in the lab and watch it destroy

cells under the microscope. Antiretroviral drugs do not kill people.

Malnutrition is not the cause or cofactor of AIDS. In fact, it was

the more well-to-do folks in Africa (definitely not malnourished!)

who first contracted and died from HIV/AIDS. Over my 25 years as an

AIDS specialist physician, I can assure you I've seen many well-

nourished, non-popper-snorting, non-steroid-using, non-illicit-drug-

using, non-antiretroviral-drug-taking folks who contracted and

succumbed to HIV/AIDS. (Many long before AZT was even available!)

The Duesberg cult has become increasingly marginalized from the

scientific community (and most everyone else who has an ounce of

common sense), since its members initially proposed these outlandish

theories in the mid-80s! Meanwhile, true scientific progress,

research and facts about HIV/AIDS pathogenesis and natural history

have taken quantum leaps forward. Even if science wasn't your strong

suit in school, you should still readily see the profound decline in

HIV/AIDS-related morbidity and mortality that has occurred since mid-

1996 as a direct consequence of the use of protease inhibitors,

drugs that have very specific and demonstrable anti-HIV activity.

This is an irrefutable cause-and-effect relationship that torpedoes

Duesberg's tired old dogma. (He's worse than Dubya and his " we're

winning in Iraq, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary! " )

Duesberg is both pathetic and irrelevant. I would not be surprised

to see these same " scientists " argue that the Earth is flat, because

it looks flat to them!

See below for more Duesberg commentary and some tragic consequences

from believing this crap.

Dr. Bob

What you think about Duesberg??Answer if you can, I know you

are busy Jul 19, 2006

Hi Doc? How are you?? I allways remenber you cause you help me about

2 years ago to pass trought.I Have been staying well and sometime I

read again just to be inform. I tested negative and I behave well.

I just read a few days ago some thing aboout some Doc Duesberg

I bet you have heard from him, HE SAYS THAT HIV DOES NOT CAUSE AIDS,

I dont know how he can say that with all the information avaliable.

What you think about him or his thinking?

Response from Dr. Frascino

Hi,

Glad to hear you are behaving yourself.

Duesberg and his disproven theory is another QNTD (question that

never dies). Check the archives! I'll repost one from the vaults!

Nothing has changed on this topic.

Dr. Bob

Prove it. Mar 9, 2006

I assume you are familiar with Dr. Duesbergs research. He

provides strong evidence that HIV has absolutley nothing to do with

AIDS. Not to mention that AIDS is just a new name for 25 old

diseases with an HIV+ test...which could mean the virus is long gone

and antibodies are present. He also shows evidence that it is nearly

impossible to spread HIV sexually. He has documented cases of HIV

infected people remaining healthy after 10 years of no treatment. He

also documents the almost 5,000 HIV- AIDS patients. Do you think it

is safe to provide treatments such as AZT etc to HIV+ patients when

the HIV/AIDS hypothesis has still not been proven after 20 years?

Response from Dr. Frascino

Hello,

You are correct: I am well aware of Duesberg, but that's the

only thing correct in your post.

Duesberg does not have " strong evidence, " but rather half-baked

theories that have been disproved over and over ad nauseum for many

years. For instance, the tired old theory about the virus being long

gone and only antibodies being left behind would not account for

results seen with RNA PCR viral load tests. These tests have nothing

to do with anti-HIV antibodies, but rather measure RNA, the genetic

material of the HIV virus itself. As for " nearly impossible to

spread HIV sexually, " well, that would come as quite a surprise to

the over 40,000,000 people infected worldwide today, considering

that's how the vast majority contracted the virus! As

for " documented cases of HIV-infected people remaining healthy after

10 years of no treatment, " again, this is very old news. It is not

at all uncommon for HIV-infected folks to remain essentially

asymptomatic for a decade. Regarding antiretroviral therapies, there

has been a dramatic drop in HIV-related morbidity and mortality

since HAART came into wide use in mid-1996. These are facts. Whether

you choose to believe them or not is totally up to you. And whether

you or Duesberg choose to believe fact over fantasy does not change

the validity of science. I'll reprint a few posts from the archives

for your edification and enlightenment.

Dr. Bob

Opinion about Duesberg Oct 5, 2004

Hi,

You can't imagine how stubborn can be a lot of people here in Italy.

They always talk about Duesberg, and they say that he has

shown HIV does not cause AIDS. Sometimes it seems that people just

want to say something original, without verifying if it is true! I

think that what Duesberg says is really bullshit. What about you?

How did he receive all this fame? Which newspaper helped him?

Anyway, I suspect that just some Italians are so stupid to believe

this nonsense. They talk about lobbies, about the " AIDS myth " ,

created by corporations, and rubbish like that.. They would be able

to call themselves " innovators " just because they think apples fall

because they have to be eaten!

Response from Dr. Frascino

Hello,

Duesberg is not a medical doctor. He is a professor at the

University of California at Berkeley. He is part of a larger group

we refer to as " AIDS denialists. " For the past 15 years, this group

has claimed that HIV does not cause AIDS; that AIDS is not

contagious; that HIV is either harmless or does not even exist; that

the treatments for HIV/AIDS are poisons, which themselves are the

cause of the disease; and that the AIDS epidemic is a medical fraud

promoted by the pharmaceutical companies. How did such " bullshit "

fantasy garner so much fame? This misinformation program has behind

it hidden funding, and even some celebrity endorsements, who managed

to get these myths publicized in the mainstream media. AIDS

denialists do not conduct research or take care of patients, but

rather spend their time and money merely propagating and rehashing

issues that were settles years ago in the scientific and medical

communities.

The problem is not just that of a lunatic fringe (which they are),

but also their organized efforts to practice bizarre and dangerous

medicine by telling people with a major illness to reject care

entirely. Denialists have convinced some pregnant women or mothers

of HIV-positive children to reject treatment universally recommended

by their doctors. In the United States and other countries where

treatment is available, the denialists have found few who are

willing to sacrifice their own lives. However, in South Africa and

elsewhere in the developing world, the denialists are seeking to

deny medical care and medications to HIV-infected people who have no

voice in the decision. They are also thwarting public health

prevention campaigns to slow the spread of the epidemic. Duesberg

and his colleague Rasnick suggest AIDS is in fact several

separate epidemics lumped together. However, even a cursory glance

at the medical literature quickly dynamites all of Duesberg's

claims. How the denialist can claim " AIDS is over " when someone's

life is snuffed out every 10 seconds by HIV/AIDS is beyond belief,

beyond logic, and clearly delusional.

Hello,

A " veterinary pathologist AIDS denialist??? " Hmmm . . . and he's

been hired to " make up alternative theories???? " This case is

becoming more and more tragic as it plays out. For our readers who

don't know the story of AIDS denialists Maggiore and Robin

Scovill, their deceased three-year-old daughter Eliza Jane Scovill,

or even what an " AIDS denialist " really is, I'll reprint a recent

article from Project Inform below.

A case such as this is in equal parts heartbreaking and infuriating.

Dr. Bob

A Denialist's Dilemma November 2005 Maggiore is a name

well known in the subculture of people who believe that HIV is a

harmless virus that doesn't cause AIDS. Her short book,What if

Everything You Thought You Knew about AIDS was Wrong? has been a

relatively big seller. She and her partner, Robin Scovill, produced

a DVD promoting their AIDS denialist beliefs and she has appeared

widely in the media. Part of her story is her belief that AIDS is

not a concern for her, despite testing positive for HIV, because she

does not believe the virus causes harm and that the tests are

inaccurate. She contends she can support this belief with research.

She tells of how a meeting with discredited UC Berkeley professor

Duesberg, more or less the father of the HIV denialist

movement, changed her life. Few begrudge her the right to believe

whatever she'd like, even if she is apparently ignoring hundreds of

scientific papers demonstrating the role of HIV in AIDS. AIDS

educators, including Project Inform, have been less sanguine about

her public promotion of such views. Whatever her intentions,

promotion of these views increases the risks of unprotected sex and

discourages people from seeking necessary medical care until it is

too late to help them. While Ms. Maggiore certainly has a right to

espouse and even profit off the spread of misinformation about HIV,

how all of this might affect her two children is something many felt

was of grave concern. Apparently because of her belief that HIV is

harmless, Maggiore rejected anti-HIV drugs to reduce the risk of

mother-to-child HIV transmission and made a public display over her

decision to breast feed, which has been shown to add another 10 to

15% risk of HIV transmission to a child. Whatever the parents might

wish to believe, their children were in no position to make their

own informed choices. Their mother's ill-founded beliefs, and only

her beliefs, determined their fates. Since their birth, Ms. Maggiore

has pointed to their apparent good health as evidence of her belief

that HIV is harmless. Anyone aware of the natural history of HIV

knew this proved nothing since only a relatively small percentage of

children born to HIV-positive mothers acquired HIV even without the

use of anti-HIV drugs to prevent transmission. Still, Maggiore

persisted in promoting her children's health and her actions as a

model for other HIV-positive women who sought to have children. By

her own accounting, she convinced as many as 50 women to avoid the

short course of anti-HIV therapy recommended during pregnancy and

childbirth and a few subsequent weeks of treatment for the newborn.

In the media and at public speaking engagements, Maggiore boasted of

her refusal to employ common, proven methods for blocking mother-to-

child transmission of HIV and of her refusal to have her children

tested for HIV. She simply dismissed the fact that " apparent " good

health for many years is the normal course of HIV infection and that

most HIV-positive people remain symptom free for many years, even

without treatment. Events of the year 2005 put an entirely new

spotlight on Ms. Maggiore's beliefs and advice, and on the role of

the medical establishment in dealing with parents who hold similar

views. In May, three-year-old Eliza Jane Scovill, 's

daughter, died from an apparently sudden and unexpected illness,

just seven weeks after Maggiore reported that her children were

in " excellent health " in a radio interview. Fast and furious seems

an apt description of whatever happened to Eliza Jane. Though

reports are sketchy, Maggiore was first concerned when her daughter

came down with a runny nose. She brought Eliza Jane to a

pediatrician who was filling in for one of her regular physicians,

Dr. Fleiss, best known as the father of " Hollywood Madam " Heidi

Fleiss. Dr. Fleiss had been convicted of hiding profits of Heidi's

enterprise from the IRS and served three years on probation. Like

all of the physicians who examined Eliza Jane before her death, he

had a reputation as a somewhat " unconventional " physician. Some say

the children's physicians were chosen more for their acceptance of

Maggiore's views than for their skill in treating children with HIV.

No treatment was recommended that day, though the doctor claims that

Eliza Jane's lungs were clear. Five days later, when the condition

seemed to have worsened, she brought her daughter to another

pediatrician, Dr. Jay Gordon, who had treated the child since birth.

He diagnosed her with a self-limiting ear infection. Had Eliza Jane

been known to be HIV-positive, a deeper approach to diagnostics

might have been employed. Dr. Gordon apparently made no effort to

have the child tested for HIV, not shortly after birth, nor then.

According to a report in the LA Times, it is a decision he now

regrets. Shortly afterward, Maggiore asked yet another doctor

sympathetic to her views, Philip Incao, who was visiting from

Denver, to look at her daughter. He recommended treatment for an ear

infection with amoxicillin, a mild, first level antibiotic.

Pediatricians questioned by the LA Times said that, had a physician

known the child might be HIV-positive, a much stronger antibiotic

would have been called for. A day later, her conditioned worsened as

she began vomiting and was turning pale. The next morning, Eliza

Jane Scovill was pronounced dead at Van Nuys Hospital. The grief of

parents who have lost a child is enormous, whatever the cause,

whatever the history. This does not, however, make it possible to

simply overlook the situation surrounding the child's death. Little

information was available about the cause of death for months

afterward and all parties respectfully avoided public speculation

and accusations. The period of silence, however, ended in late

September when the LA Medical Examiner declared the cause of death

to be " AIDS-related pneumonia " . The implications of the diagnosis

were explosive. To our knowledge, the medical examiners report has

not been made public. Thus we can only base comments on what has

been reported in the LA Times. The Medical Examiner needs to declare

how evidence of HIV infection was determined and what kind of

pneumonia they are talking about it. Some types, such as

Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia (PCP), are all but unique to HIV

since they occur only in the presence of a severely weakened immune

system. In the years before HIV testing became available, a case of

PCP was the signature event that announced the presence of advanced

AIDS. Prior to the appearance of HIV disease in the late 1970s, PCP

was so rare as to be virtually unknown to most physicians and the

drugs used to treat it so rare as to be available only by special

request from the Centers for Disease Control. The appearance of

clustered cases of PCP was in fact key to the realization that a new

disease had appeared in the population. If PCP was truly found in

Eliza Jane Scovill, the medical examiner's report might easily end

there as a proven case of AIDS. However, if it was another form of

pneumonia, other tests would be needed to confirm that death was due

to AIDS. For now, we simply lack the specifics on the cause of death

and can only presume that the Medical Examiner's office knows what

it is talking about. And if it does, the diagnosis raises

devastating questions about child endangerment, improper medical

care by physicians, and a failure of child welfare agencies to

protect a child who need not have died. Moreoever, it makes a

profound statement that HIV denialism is more than a misguided

opinion; it is deadly and dangerous misinformation. Using today's

tools, blocking mother-to-child transmission of HIV is all but fool

proof. Moreover, treatment of HIV in those infected has an extremely

high success rate. So the question that must be answered is " What

went so tragically wrong as to result in the death of this innocent

child? " Maggiore says of herself " I am a devastated, broken,

grieving mother, but I am not second-guessing or questioning my

understanding of the issue. " No one questions the first half of her

statement. Her pain is no doubt real and she has surely suffered.

But when the first half of her statement is placed back to back with

the second half, it causes one's jaw to drop. She has paid the

ultimate price for her ill-founded beliefs and for spreading life-

threatening misinformation to thousands -- she has paid with the

life of her own child. Yet she clings to her beliefs, beliefs that

contradict the universal conclusions of the world's most

knowledgeable scientists and physicians. Perhaps it's easier to

cling to these misguided beliefs than to face one's culpability. She

continued in the LA Times: " Would I redo anything based on what

happened? I don't think I would. I think I acted with the best

information and the best of intentions with all my heart. " Leaving

her intentions aside, unless she knows something about the Medical

Examiner's report that is shielded from everyone else, the statement

speaks of an astonishing intellectual arrogance. How can anyone

conclude that the tiny smattering of claims made by denialists,

almost none of whom are experts in the field or people who have

actually conducted any AIDS research, constitutes " the best

information " She is convinced that her personal reading of a field

of science, in which she has no training or credentials, is right

and thousands of the best trained scientists on the planet are

wrong. She remains so convinced of her own " rightness " perhaps

because to do otherwise now would force her to acknowledge that her

beliefs and stubbornness may have played a role in the death of her

daughter. Given that she also achieved a degree of fame and

financial gain from these beliefs, it will be interesting to see

what the L.A. Country District Attorney has to say about the death

of her daughter. We have read her book, studied her website and

followed the lines of thinking proposed by the scientists she claims

to respect. We find nothing new, nothing deep, nothing challenging.

We see only a restatement of claims made mostly in the 1980's by

Duesberg and long since repeatedly refuted and rejected by the

scientific community. We find her arguments against the role of HIV

in AIDS to be facile, easily answered and overcome. They are views

and conclusions that only make sense if you know little or nothing

of the actual science of AIDS. Once you become familiar with great

bulk of the research on AIDS, it is easy to see why so many

scientists consider the beliefs of the denialists to be " pseudo-

science. " Similar cults of pseudo-science exist in most fields.

Seldom, however, do people bet their own lives and the lives of

their children on such beliefs. Is it right, is it fair, for a child

to pay with her life for this level of arrogance on the part of a

parent? There should be no surprise that child welfare officers are

investigating the case. And what of the three doctors who stood by

and saw only a minor illness as this child slipped from life to

death? The only thing that can be said in their defense is that

apparently none had much, if any experience, with the diagnosis or

treatment of HIV disease. The blame for the selection of such

physicians must also fall upon the parents. Doctors were apparently

selected based on their willingness to accept the parent's

unconventional views, rather than on their competence in treating

two children who may have been exposed to HIV through birth. Still,

physicians take an oath to do no harm. These three must answer to

that oath. Surely, the word denial has seldom had a more clear

definition that what is seen here. Ms. Maggiore and her partner face

a terrible dilemma in their grief. They are faced with acknowledging

the possibility they have been horribly wrong but so far have not

done so. By definition, every honest respecter of science

acknowledges the possibility, even the likelihood of error. What

could motivate Maggiore and Scovill to close off all possible

admission of error? Just one thing: if they acknowledge error, they

must accept responsibility for the loss of their daughter. A

denialist dilemma indeed. Yet perhaps nothing is more disturbing

than the final comment made by Ms. Maggiore herself on a website she

posted about the loss of her child: " Why our child -- so

appreciated, so held, so carefully nurtured -- and not one ignored,

abused or abandoned? " she wrote. " How come what we offered was not

enough to keep her here when children with far less -- impatient

distracted parents, a small apartment on a busy street, extended day

care, Mayer Lunchables -- will happily stay? " What to make of

that final sentence, wondering why this happened to her daughter,

who, we learn repeatedly, was cherished and given the finer things

of life, when it didn't happen to " impatient distracted parents, "

people who put their children in " a small apartment on a busy

street " and used " extended day care " and gave them " Mayer

Lunchables " (instead of organic meals?). What is she saying, perhaps

that it would have been more appropriate for a poorer family to lose

their child? Maybe that poorer family had the wisdom to listen to

their doctor. Who, indeed, were the wiser parents?

[Guest guest]

>

> Sylvain,

>

> I would like to clarify a point you made here. Maggiore

> did not lose her daughter to an AIDS related opportunistic

> infection. I'm not sure who you are referring to as her partner

as

> well? Her husband is alive and healthy and still hiv negative

(along

> with her 8 year old son). You will find that an independent

> toxicology report she had done on her daugher shows the child died

of

> a reaction to an antibiotic and not to PCP. Check out her website

> for more information, www.aliveandwell.org. I find it interesting

> that the coroner's office will not turn over any documentation

> proving the child was hiv positive and that after seeing 3, (yes

3)

> pediatricians, that nothing was ever mentioned about the child's

> lungs. I wonder how she could have died from pneumonia?

>

> Best of luck in your journey.

>

> Andy

Dear Andy, I wouldn't call that toxicology report

exactly " independent " . Interestingly enough, it was commissioned by

Maggiore to Mr. M.Al-Bayati, an old-time member of the board of

Alive & Well. Call that independent....

The following is taken from http://oracknows.blogspot.com, a blog of

a medical scientist.

" Maggiore, the HIV-positive mother and high profile

HIV/AIDS denialist who refused to take AZT to prevent maternal-fetal

transmission of the virus, or even to test her child for HIV, has

gotten fellow HIV denialist Dr. Mohammed Al-Bayati to look at the

L.A. County Coroner's report for her daughter's autopsy. Not

surprisingly, Dr. Al-Bayati is claiming that the coroner got it all

wrong and that Eliza Jane didn't die of AIDS-related pneumonia as

the report concluded, leading Dean to go into spasms of self-

righteous rage and claim " that the L.A. County coroner and the Los

Angeles Times were and are guilty of a political diagnosis in order

to grandstand. "

Well, knock me over with a feather! Who could possibly have seen

that one coming? The only thing that surprised me is that it took so

long to dig up someone to " refute " the coroner's report.

One thing that struck me right away is that Dean failed to mention

other medical bloggers who agreed with my position and said so in

their blog, bloggers such as Gordon's Notes, Red State Moron,

SupportVaccination.org, or even Dr. Trent McBride, a pathology

resident who blogs on Catallarchy and who also pointed out that

finding Pneumocystis carinii by silver stain on autopsy histology of

the lungs of someone not having AIDS or other significant

immunosuppression is exceedingly rare. (I wonder if Dean considers

these other bloggers writing on this case to be lacking in honesty

as well.) Another thing that struck me is that, in the comments Dean

whined about ad hominem attacks against his expert (Dr. Al-Bayati),

after having himself launched an ad hominem attack on

(whom, I conceded, had once taken what I considered to be a

cheap shot at Dean over an admission Dean had made) and others. No

doubt Dean fails to see the irony. Apparently ad hominems are OK

only as long as it is Dean--who has on occasion been known to refer

to his critics by epithets like " sad little losers " --launching the

ad hominem.

Nonetheless, at the risk of my being accused of retreating to

the " last refuge of the pseudoscientist " (as Dean himself likes to

put it), the ad hominem attack, it is nonetheless necessary to take

a brief look at Dr. Al-Bayati before addressing the substance of

report itself. (Don't worry, I'll get to the substance soon enough.)

Given that Dean seems to like to question the motivations of those

who don't buy into his " HIV dissident " line and to argue from

authority a lot (he is quite enamored of his friend Duesberg's

credentials and those of another prominent AIDS denialist, Harvey

Bialy and is not at all shy about waving them in front of him--

metaphorically speaking--like a talisman to ward off attacks against

his pseudoscientific posturing), I consider it entirely appropriate

to examine this particular " expert " and his qualifications and

motivations before going on to discuss the contents of his report.

So who is Mohammed Ali Al-Bayati, PhD, DABT, DABVT? He represents

himself as a toxicologist and " pathologist. " However, most

pathologists who deal with HIV are MD's. So what kind of pathologist

is he? " DABVT " stands for Diplomate, American Board of Veterinary

Toxicology; so basically he's a veterinary pathologist and

toxicologist. Whether that means he's qualified to evaluate

postmortem findings in AIDS, I don't know. He has a few papers

published in the peer-reviewed medical literature, but none of them

concern HIV; so his publication history doesn't help me evaluate

him. He does, however, have a very obvious and undeniable bias. Dean

will no doubt characterize it as an ad hominem attack to point out

Dr. Al-Bayati's bias, but it's not at all inappropriate in this case

to mention his prominent listing on the infamous Virus Myth website

or his book Get All the Facts: HIV Does Not Cause AIDS. Also, Dr. Al-

Bayati runs a company called Toxi-Health International, which,

according to its website, provides expert witness services and " can

evaluate the health effect resulting from acute and chronic

exposure " to various agents, " including medication reactions,

adverse reactions to vaccines (shades of the Geiers!), pesticides,

and a variety of other compounds. No doubt Dean will lambaste me for

even mentioning such things. Tough. If Dean considers it not to be

an ad hominem attack to blithely accuse the L.A. County Coroner and

L.A. Times without evidence of making " a political diagnosis in

order to grandstand, " I consider it acceptable to point out an

obvious bias in the source Dean chooses to use to make the case that

the autopsy findings were incorrect.

As I've said before, as long as you're not just lobbing insults at

your opponent, ad hominem arguments are not always inappropriate,

particularly when they point out a clear bias that any person

evaluating both sides of an argument should be aware of. However,

they are not sufficient. The substance of an argument must be

addressed as well. So, without further ado, though, let's get to the

meat of the matter, shall we? Unfortunately, Dean provided no link

to the original coroner's report (apparently it is not publicly

available); so I shall have to rely on Dr. Al-Bayati's

characterization of the report. Fortunately, that's enough to sink

him.

The first thing I noticed reading Dr. Al-Bayati's report is that it

appears not to be intended for a scientific audience. (Perhaps this

is why Dean found it so compelling, assuming he actually read the

whole thing.) Instead, it is constructed more like a legal document

designed to cast " reasonable " doubt on the coroner's conclusion that

AIDS-related pneumonia was the cause of Eliza Jane's death, rather

than actually putting together a coherent case for an alternate

explanation. Without ever having seen the body or any of the raw

data from the autopsy, Dr. Al-Bayati dives right in. One

particularly egregious example of his style is that he lambastes the

coroner for not testing for a certain virus (more about this below),

and then confidently concludes that Eliza Jane had that virus and

not HIV, even though he couldn't possibly make such a conclusion

without the results of the very test that he criticizes the coroner

for not having done in the first place! Before I myself dive in,

however, let's summarize the autopsy conclusions as Dr. Al-Bayati

reports them:

Pneumocystis carinii was found in Eliza Jane's lungs by Gomori

methenamine silver staining in association with pink foamy casts in

the alveoli. The lungs were also edematous (water-logged).

Eliza Jane was mildly neutropenic (low neutrophil--a type of white

blood cell--count) and profoundly anemic (low red blood cell count)

Eliza Jane's brain contained throughout its white matter with

relative sparing of cortex a number of variable-sized microglial

nodules characterized by multinucleate giant cells associated with

moderate pallor and myelination, occasional macrophages, and and

angiocentric pattern. These lesions stained positive by

immunohistochemistry (IHC) for the HIV core p24 protein, a finding

consistent with HIV encephalitis.

There was atrophy of the spleen and thymus

There was enlargement of the liver with fatty infiltrate of the

cells (steatosis) and ascites

Dr. Al-Bayati then tries to " refute " each of these findings, using a

variety of handwaving techniques and " might have beens " that truly

astound. One thing that puzzled me, though, was why he thought it so

important to refute the finding that HIV was present at all. After

all, if, as Dr. Al-Bayati clearly believes very strongly, HIV does

not cause AIDS, then why not just come right out and argue that in

his report? Why not just argue that AIDS couldn't possibly have

killed Eliza Jane and that the HIV protein detected in her brain was

a red herring? Heck, why doesn't Dean just argue that?

But I digress.

Dr. Al-Bayati concedes that P. carinii, an AIDS-defining organism,

was present in Eliza Jane's lungs but tries to wave this finding

away by pointing out that there was not a " pneumonia " because no

inflammation was observed, citing a definition in a pathology

textbook (a technique not unlike arguing about technical words using

dictionary definitions). He repeats this again and again ad nauseam.

He also states that P. carinii is ubiquitous, only causing disease

in immunosuppressed patients. There are couple of problems with

these arguments. First, immunosuppressed AIDS patients tend not to

be able to mount a very effective inflammatory response to

infection. Indeed, it has been noted that, in HIV infection, PCP

pneumonia provokes fewer inflammatory cells and that PCP is worse in

patients immunosuppressed by other causes as their immune system

recovers and starts attacking the organism, causing inflammation.

(That's one reason why the chest X-ray findings and physical exam

findings can be so variable.) The one argument Dr. Al-Bayati makes

in this context that isn't totally off the wall is that PCP can

occur due to immunosuppression from other causes, and he cites

several references that show that PCP can occur in people without

HIV if they are immunosuppressed for other reasons. Of course, this

line of argument totally begs the question of what the cause of this

Eliza Jane's profound immunosuppression was in the first place if it

wasn't HIV infection. Second, as Dr. McBride pointed out, for P.

carinii to be detected in routine tissue samples at autopsy, there

have to be a lot of organisms there. In immunocompetent individuals,

there simply aren't enough bugs to show up on silver stain. Given

that the HIV protein detected in the brain implicates an obvious

cause for the immunosuppression that led to the presence of so much

P. carinii in Eliza Jane's lungs, it's hard not to conclude that

Eliza Jane had AIDS-associated PCP. Dr. Al-Bayati clearly realized

that he had to try to throw doubt on that finding.

And how does he try to do that? Disputing the findings of an

experienced neuropathologist, Dr. Maurice A. Verity of UCLA, who

examined the sections of Eliza Jane's brain, Dr. Al-Bayati argues

that the brain lesions seen are nonspecific and that the finding of

the HIV p24 protein on IHC must have been a false-positive. He

points out a paper from 1992 indicating a high level of false

positivity of this test in the presence of inflammation. Tellingly,

however, despite listing the numbers and types of tissues stained in

the study (which included only 3 brains from HIV-positive patients

and one brain without HIV), he does not cite the percentage of false

positive results reported in the paper, only that it is " common. " (I

couldn't get the paper online to check myself, because the online

archives only go back to 2000.) The problem with this line of

argument is that it's not enough just to say that this " might " have

been a false positive using references that, being 13 years old, may

not even be relevant to how IHC for HIV proteins is done today. He

has to show compelling reason that it was, rather than hand-waving

and saying that some combination of a viral infection and/or an

allergic reaction to amoxicillin caused this (see below). Even Dr.

Al-Bayati appears to realize this shortcoming.

And that's where his strangest argument of all comes in.

There's a saying in medicine that, when you hear hoofbeats you don't

look for zebras. (A zebra is medical slang for a rare or highly

unlikely diagnosis.) Yes, occasionally it you will find a zebra, but

the vast majority of the time you will not. Consequently, when one

hears hoofbeats from a tragic case of a dead child of an HIV-

positive mother who was found to have profound anemia, PCP, and

encephalitic lesions with HIV proteins detected in them, by far the

most likely diagnosis is AIDS. Indeed, in the differential

diagnosis, the first ten diagnoses in the differential would be

AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, AIDS, and then--very

far down the line in probabilities--everything else. Given this,

it's not surprising that, in his rebuttal, Dr. Al-Bayati hears not

one, but at least two zebras approaching.

Which zebras, though? The first one is erythrocytic aplastic crisis

due to infection with parvovirus B19 (PVB19, the virus mentioned

above), of course! Shouldn't it have been obvious? He bases this

speculation on Eliza Jane's anemia, encephalitis, upper respiratory

infection, and atrophy of the spleen and thymus. I'll give him

props, though. This is a clever gambit, because this particular

virus is common enough that a significant percentage of children

have been exposed to it, meaning that there's a reasonable

probability that antibodies to it would be found if looked for,

whether it was this virus that actually caused Eliza Jane's death or

not. Let's look at this claim a little more closely.

PVB19 is a parvovirus that is fairly common and can cause upper

respiratory infections, erythema infectiosum, arthritis and

arthralgias, and transient aplastic crisis. Dr. Al-Bayati makes much

of the ability of this virus to cause anemia by transiently

suppressing the progenitor cells that develop into red blood cells

and blames infection with this virus for Eliza Jane's profound

anemia. He also attributes Eliza Jane's encephalitis and bone marrow

atrophy to infection with this virus. However, he neglects the

observation that PVB19 is rarely much of a problem in healthy

individuals. Severe anemia secondary to PVB19 usually only occurs in

patients with a pre-existing anemia or pre-existing destruction of

red blood cells and who therefore require a high level of

reticulocyte production to keep their blood counts up. Conditions in

which this can be a problem include chronic hemolytic anemias,

sickle cell anemia, thalassemia, acute hemorrhage, and iron

deficiency anemia, all of which cause red blood cell loss requiring

replacement. Also, severe infections of the bone marrow with PVB19

causing aplastic anemia are rare aside from patients with pre-

existing immunosuppression, such as transplant recipients, patients

with malignancy, and, of course, patients with HIV. In such

patients, PVB19 infection can result in severe, prolonged,

recurrent, or even permanent anemia. Dr. Al-Bayati does point out a

couple of case reports of a aplastic anemia due to PVB19 in

immunocompetent individuals. As far as I can find, there are no

decent-sized series reported, however, only a few isolated case

reports. This paucity of reports that PVB19 is a fairly rare cause

of aplastic anemia in healthy individuals. It is, of course,

possible that PVB19 infection caused Eliza Jane's serious anemia

(that's where " reasonable doubt " comes in). However, even if it had,

given what is known about this strain of parvovirus, a far more

likely explanation would be that the virus caused Eliza Jane's

anemia because of immunosuppression secondary to her HIV infection.

Indeed, case reports even suggest that anemia in AIDS patients due

to PVB19 will improve with antiretroviral therapy.

The second zebra is a severe amoxicillin hypersensitivity. (An

amoxicillin allergic reaction in and of itself is not a zebra, but

it is in the context of this particular case.) Never mind that Eliza

Jane had, as was emphasized in the report, never been exposed to

antibiotics before and that her clinical course does not seem

consistent with a hypersensitivity reaction. Never mind that there

was no eosinophilia, no urticaria, or no other stigmata of an

allergic reaction mentioned in Dr. Al-Bayati's report (and you can

bet that, had any of them been there, he would have mentioned them

prominently). Amoxicillin hypersensitivity was also blamed for Eliza

Jane's steatosis. It is true that amoxicillin-clavulanate has been

associated with hepatocellular, cholestatic, granulomatous, or focal

destructive cholangiopathy (all types of liver damage), and

references are cited showing this. However, one would think that Dr.

Al-Bayati would know that steatosis (a fatty infiltrate of the liver

cells) is not the same thing as any of these. Moreover, the

pathology report did not state that Eliza Jane's liver had any of

the more common manifestations of amoxicillin-clavulanate-induced

liver injury, casting further doubt on the antibiotic as the cause.

(Drugs more classically associated with steatosis include valproic

acid, tetracycline, amiodarone, and aspirin, not amoxicillin-

clavulanate. Indeed, a PubMed search on " steatosis "

and " amoxicillin " failed to turn up a single reference.) I didn't

see any of Dr. Al-Bayati's references supporting his implication

that amoxicillin could cause steatosis within a day of exposure.

Clearly, the steatosis must have been a pre-existing condition. As

for the pulmonary edema and ascites reported, that could be due to

allergic reaction, septic shock from an ear infection,

cardiopulmonary collapse from whatever cause, or a number of other

factors, but in the context of Eliza Jane's HIV infection, rapid

deterioriation, and cardiovascular collapse, it fits.

The bottom line is that you can compare these two sets of

conclusions about what caused Eliza Jane's death and decide which

seems more plausible. The first, the coroner's report, looks at a

child of an HIV-positive mother who refused to take AZT during

pregnancy, breast-fed her child even though that is known to

increase the rate of transmission of HIV, and refused to have her

child tested for HIV, a child who collapsed after upper respiratory

and ear infections, whose autopsy findings showed HIV encephalitis,

P. carinii in the lungs, and severe anemia. Given such findings,

it's hard not to conclude that Eliza Jane died of AIDS

complications. (Whether or not Dean's contention that the coroner

had some sort of horrendous bias or was grandstanding is true, I

cannot say, but certainly Dean hasn't provided any compelling

evidence that he was.) The second hypothesis, promulgated by an

HIV " dissident " with a definite axe to grind, requires us to believe

in not just one, but three, highly unlikely occurrences (plus one

simply unlikely occurence), namely:

A previously completely healthy girl developed PVB19 infection

leading to both encephalitis and aplastic anemia (possible, but

highly unlikely, and, even if PVB19 were found, it would be far more

likely that it was able to cause anemia because of immunosuppression

due to AIDS).

This same girl also developed an acute allergic reaction to

amoxicillin that led to cardiovascular collapse and--oh, by the way--

also caused steatosis of the liver within a day after starting the

drug, the steatosis being something even Dr. Al-Bayati's own

references do not seem to support as being likely.

This same otherwise healthy girl had sufficient quantity of P.

carinii in her lungs to show up on Gomori methenamine silver

staining at her autopsy.

The medical examiner and neuropathologist either botched the

staining for the p24 protein (or that it was a false positive) and

an experienced neuropathologist didn't know the pitfalls of the

diagnosis of HIV encephalitis using brain tissue sections.

A veritable herd of zebras indeed. To believe Dr. Al-Bayati's

scenario, you have to believe that at least four very unlikely

things happened in the same case, rather than the very likely

conclusion (based on the autopsy findings) that AIDS killed Eliza

Jane.

Not surprisingly, credulous guy that he is when it comes to anything

that supports HIV denialism, Dean does exactly what he accuses

of and " sucks down any codswollop he's fed on this

subject and spews it back out on command. " No doubt Dean will likely

accuse me of the same and/or consider my response to him to

be " dishonest " or possibly lacking class. We'll see. Part of the

reason I haven't addressed Dean's " skepticism " about AIDS much

before is because observing him pontificate on AIDS has taught me

that arguing with him on this issue is completely pointless. Quite

frankly, even in this instance, it's unlikely that I would have

bothered to respond if Dean hadn't annoyed me so much by impugning

my honesty.

In the meantime, I plan on submitting this to Grand Rounds this

week. (That's about as close to " peer review " as you can get in the

blogosphere.) I'm also very interested in what other doctors,

scientists, and medbloggers have to say about this. I'm not an AIDS

expert, but a lot of the stuff in Dr. Al-Bayati's report is so off

the wall that it didn't take much to find the inconsistencies. (And

if I, a knowledgeable non-expert, can pick the flaws apart, imagine

what a real expert could do.) Nonetheless, if I got something

grievously wrong that calls into question my analysis, I'd like my

peers to let me know.

ADDENDUM: An update including the opinions of two additional

physicians has been posted here. They cover a lot of the same

ground, but from different viewpoints and different areas of

expertise and, when combined, present a truly devastating rebuttal

to Dr. Al-Bayati's " report. "

Follow some letters:

" I have read in depth articles published by Dr. Duesberg, a cell

biologist and articles from Dr. Mohammed Ali Bayati; a toxocoligist;

who both claim that HIV in itself is not the cause of AIDS. While, I

realize this is a huge debate and controversial issue, one has to

admit that some of their findings and conclusions are compelling.

They claim that HIV alone does not cause AIDS but that people with

HIV who take medications such as certain types of steroid

medications and antiretroviral medications, illicit drugs like

cocaine, heroin, ecstasy, poppers (nitrates), or people who are

malnourished are suppressing their immune systems greatly and that

THIS is the co-factor that leads to AIDS. Can you elaborate on this

issue a bit or on Dr. Duesberg or Dr. Mohammed Ali Bayati's findings

and/or conclusions?? This is a very important topic for me because

after reading their articles, I want to stay away from those

possible co-factors at all costs to keep my immune system healthy!!

Response from Dr. Frascino

Hello,

No, this is not a huge debate.

No, this is not a controversial issue (if one accepts scientific

fact rather than science-fiction myths).

No, Duesberg (and his crackpot cronies) do not have " findings and

conclusions " that are compelling.

I'm always amused that anyone falls for this poppycock anymore.

(Sorry, but to do so is to be both gullible and woefully

misinformed!)

We have been studying HIV, the cause of AIDS, for more than a

quarter of a century. We can grow it in the lab and watch it destroy

cells under the microscope. Antiretroviral drugs do not kill people.

Malnutrition is not the cause or cofactor of AIDS. In fact, it was

the more well-to-do folks in Africa (definitely not malnourished!)

who first contracted and died from HIV/AIDS. Over my 25 years as an

AIDS specialist physician, I can assure you I've seen many well-

nourished, non-popper-snorting, non-steroid-using, non-illicit-drug-

using, non-antiretroviral-drug-taking folks who contracted and

succumbed to HIV/AIDS. (Many long before AZT was even available!)

The Duesberg cult has become increasingly marginalized from the

scientific community (and most everyone else who has an ounce of

common sense), since its members initially proposed these outlandish

theories in the mid-80s! Meanwhile, true scientific progress,

research and facts about HIV/AIDS pathogenesis and natural history

have taken quantum leaps forward. Even if science wasn't your strong

suit in school, you should still readily see the profound decline in

HIV/AIDS-related morbidity and mortality that has occurred since mid-

1996 as a direct consequence of the use of protease inhibitors,

drugs that have very specific and demonstrable anti-HIV activity.

This is an irrefutable cause-and-effect relationship that torpedoes

Duesberg's tired old dogma. (He's worse than Dubya and his " we're

winning in Iraq, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary! " )

Duesberg is both pathetic and irrelevant. I would not be surprised

to see these same " scientists " argue that the Earth is flat, because

it looks flat to them!

See below for more Duesberg commentary and some tragic consequences

from believing this crap.

Dr. Bob

What you think about Duesberg??Answer if you can, I know you

are busy Jul 19, 2006

Hi Doc? How are you?? I allways remenber you cause you help me about

2 years ago to pass trought.I Have been staying well and sometime I

read again just to be inform. I tested negative and I behave well.

I just read a few days ago some thing aboout some Doc Duesberg

I bet you have heard from him, HE SAYS THAT HIV DOES NOT CAUSE AIDS,

I dont know how he can say that with all the information avaliable.

What you think about him or his thinking?

Response from Dr. Frascino

Hi,

Glad to hear you are behaving yourself.

Duesberg and his disproven theory is another QNTD (question that

never dies). Check the archives! I'll repost one from the vaults!

Nothing has changed on this topic.

Dr. Bob

Prove it. Mar 9, 2006

I assume you are familiar with Dr. Duesbergs research. He

provides strong evidence that HIV has absolutley nothing to do with

AIDS. Not to mention that AIDS is just a new name for 25 old

diseases with an HIV+ test...which could mean the virus is long gone

and antibodies are present. He also shows evidence that it is nearly

impossible to spread HIV sexually. He has documented cases of HIV

infected people remaining healthy after 10 years of no treatment. He

also documents the almost 5,000 HIV- AIDS patients. Do you think it

is safe to provide treatments such as AZT etc to HIV+ patients when

the HIV/AIDS hypothesis has still not been proven after 20 years?

Response from Dr. Frascino

Hello,

You are correct: I am well aware of Duesberg, but that's the

only thing correct in your post.

Duesberg does not have " strong evidence, " but rather half-baked

theories that have been disproved over and over ad nauseum for many

years. For instance, the tired old theory about the virus being long

gone and only antibodies being left behind would not account for

results seen with RNA PCR viral load tests. These tests have nothing

to do with anti-HIV antibodies, but rather measure RNA, the genetic

material of the HIV virus itself. As for " nearly impossible to

spread HIV sexually, " well, that would come as quite a surprise to

the over 40,000,000 people infected worldwide today, considering

that's how the vast majority contracted the virus! As

for " documented cases of HIV-infected people remaining healthy after

10 years of no treatment, " again, this is very old news. It is not

at all uncommon for HIV-infected folks to remain essentially

asymptomatic for a decade. Regarding antiretroviral therapies, there

has been a dramatic drop in HIV-related morbidity and mortality

since HAART came into wide use in mid-1996. These are facts. Whether

you choose to believe them or not is totally up to you. And whether

you or Duesberg choose to believe fact over fantasy does not change

the validity of science. I'll reprint a few posts from the archives

for your edification and enlightenment.

Dr. Bob

Opinion about Duesberg Oct 5, 2004

Hi,

You can't imagine how stubborn can be a lot of people here in Italy.

They always talk about Duesberg, and they say that he has

shown HIV does not cause AIDS. Sometimes it seems that people just

want to say something original, without verifying if it is true! I

think that what Duesberg says is really bullshit. What about you?

How did he receive all this fame? Which newspaper helped him?

Anyway, I suspect that just some Italians are so stupid to believe

this nonsense. They talk about lobbies, about the " AIDS myth " ,

created by corporations, and rubbish like that.. They would be able

to call themselves " innovators " just because they think apples fall

because they have to be eaten!

Response from Dr. Frascino

Hello,

Duesberg is not a medical doctor. He is a professor at the

University of California at Berkeley. He is part of a larger group

we refer to as " AIDS denialists. " For the past 15 years, this group

has claimed that HIV does not cause AIDS; that AIDS is not

contagious; that HIV is either harmless or does not even exist; that

the treatments for HIV/AIDS are poisons, which themselves are the

cause of the disease; and that the AIDS epidemic is a medical fraud

promoted by the pharmaceutical companies. How did such " bullshit "

fantasy garner so much fame? This misinformation program has behind

it hidden funding, and even some celebrity endorsements, who managed

to get these myths publicized in the mainstream media. AIDS

denialists do not conduct research or take care of patients, but

rather spend their time and money merely propagating and rehashing

issues that were settles years ago in the scientific and medical

communities.

The problem is not just that of a lunatic fringe (which they are),

but also their organized efforts to practice bizarre and dangerous

medicine by telling people with a major illness to reject care

entirely. Denialists have convinced some pregnant women or mothers

of HIV-positive children to reject treatment universally recommended

by their doctors. In the United States and other countries where

treatment is available, the denialists have found few who are

willing to sacrifice their own lives. However, in South Africa and

elsewhere in the developing world, the denialists are seeking to

deny medical care and medications to HIV-infected people who have no

voice in the decision. They are also thwarting public health

prevention campaigns to slow the spread of the epidemic. Duesberg

and his colleague Rasnick suggest AIDS is in fact several

separate epidemics lumped together. However, even a cursory glance

at the medical literature quickly dynamites all of Duesberg's

claims. How the denialist can claim " AIDS is over " when someone's

life is snuffed out every 10 seconds by HIV/AIDS is beyond belief,

beyond logic, and clearly delusional.

Hello,

A " veterinary pathologist AIDS denialist??? " Hmmm . . . and he's

been hired to " make up alternative theories???? " This case is

becoming more and more tragic as it plays out. For our readers who

don't know the story of AIDS denialists Maggiore and Robin

Scovill, their deceased three-year-old daughter Eliza Jane Scovill,

or even what an " AIDS denialist " really is, I'll reprint a recent

article from Project Inform below.

A case such as this is in equal parts heartbreaking and infuriating.

Dr. Bob

A Denialist's Dilemma November 2005 Maggiore is a name

well known in the subculture of people who believe that HIV is a

harmless virus that doesn't cause AIDS. Her short book,What if

Everything You Thought You Knew about AIDS was Wrong? has been a

relatively big seller. She and her partner, Robin Scovill, produced

a DVD promoting their AIDS denialist beliefs and she has appeared

widely in the media. Part of her story is her belief that AIDS is

not a concern for her, despite testing positive for HIV, because she

does not believe the virus causes harm and that the tests are

inaccurate. She contends she can support this belief with research.

She tells of how a meeting with discredited UC Berkeley professor

Duesberg, more or less the father of the HIV denialist

movement, changed her life. Few begrudge her the right to believe

whatever she'd like, even if she is apparently ignoring hundreds of

scientific papers demonstrating the role of HIV in AIDS. AIDS

educators, including Project Inform, have been less sanguine about

her public promotion of such views. Whatever her intentions,

promotion of these views increases the risks of unprotected sex and

discourages people from seeking necessary medical care until it is

too late to help them. While Ms. Maggiore certainly has a right to

espouse and even profit off the spread of misinformation about HIV,

how all of this might affect her two children is something many felt

was of grave concern. Apparently because of her belief that HIV is

harmless, Maggiore rejected anti-HIV drugs to reduce the risk of

mother-to-child HIV transmission and made a public display over her

decision to breast feed, which has been shown to add another 10 to

15% risk of HIV transmission to a child. Whatever the parents might

wish to believe, their children were in no position to make their

own informed choices. Their mother's ill-founded beliefs, and only

her beliefs, determined their fates. Since their birth, Ms. Maggiore

has pointed to their apparent good health as evidence of her belief

that HIV is harmless. Anyone aware of the natural history of HIV

knew this proved nothing since only a relatively small percentage of

children born to HIV-positive mothers acquired HIV even without the

use of anti-HIV drugs to prevent transmission. Still, Maggiore

persisted in promoting her children's health and her actions as a

model for other HIV-positive women who sought to have children. By

her own accounting, she convinced as many as 50 women to avoid the

short course of anti-HIV therapy recommended during pregnancy and

childbirth and a few subsequent weeks of treatment for the newborn.

In the media and at public speaking engagements, Maggiore boasted of

her refusal to employ common, proven methods for blocking mother-to-

child transmission of HIV and of her refusal to have her children

tested for HIV. She simply dismissed the fact that " apparent " good

health for many years is the normal course of HIV infection and that

most HIV-positive people remain symptom free for many years, even

without treatment. Events of the year 2005 put an entirely new

spotlight on Ms. Maggiore's beliefs and advice, and on the role of

the medical establishment in dealing with parents who hold similar

views. In May, three-year-old Eliza Jane Scovill, 's

daughter, died from an apparently sudden and unexpected illness,

just seven weeks after Maggiore reported that her children were

in " excellent health " in a radio interview. Fast and furious seems

an apt description of whatever happened to Eliza Jane. Though

reports are sketchy, Maggiore was first concerned when her daughter

came down with a runny nose. She brought Eliza Jane to a

pediatrician who was filling in for one of her regular physicians,

Dr. Fleiss, best known as the father of " Hollywood Madam " Heidi

Fleiss. Dr. Fleiss had been convicted of hiding profits of Heidi's

enterprise from the IRS and served three years on probation. Like

all of the physicians who examined Eliza Jane before her death, he

had a reputation as a somewhat " unconventional " physician. Some say

the children's physicians were chosen more for their acceptance of

Maggiore's views than for their skill in treating children with HIV.

No treatment was recommended that day, though the doctor claims that

Eliza Jane's lungs were clear. Five days later, when the condition

seemed to have worsened, she brought her daughter to another

pediatrician, Dr. Jay Gordon, who had treated the child since birth.

He diagnosed her with a self-limiting ear infection. Had Eliza Jane

been known to be HIV-positive, a deeper approach to diagnostics

might have been employed. Dr. Gordon apparently made no effort to

have the child tested for HIV, not shortly after birth, nor then.

According to a report in the LA Times, it is a decision he now

regrets. Shortly afterward, Maggiore asked yet another doctor

sympathetic to her views, Philip Incao, who was visiting from

Denver, to look at her daughter. He recommended treatment for an ear

infection with amoxicillin, a mild, first level antibiotic.

Pediatricians questioned by the LA Times said that, had a physician

known the child might be HIV-positive, a much stronger antibiotic

would have been called for. A day later, her conditioned worsened as

she began vomiting and was turning pale. The next morning, Eliza

Jane Scovill was pronounced dead at Van Nuys Hospital. The grief of

parents who have lost a child is enormous, whatever the cause,

whatever the history. This does not, however, make it possible to

simply overlook the situation surrounding the child's death. Little

information was available about the cause of death for months

afterward and all parties respectfully avoided public speculation

and accusations. The period of silence, however, ended in late

September when the LA Medical Examiner declared the cause of death

to be " AIDS-related pneumonia " . The implications of the diagnosis

were explosive. To our knowledge, the medical examiners report has

not been made public. Thus we can only base comments on what has

been reported in the LA Times. The Medical Examiner needs to declare

how evidence of HIV infection was determined and what kind of

pneumonia they are talking about it. Some types, such as

Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia (PCP), are all but unique to HIV

since they occur only in the presence of a severely weakened immune

system. In the years before HIV testing became available, a case of

PCP was the signature event that announced the presence of advanced

AIDS. Prior to the appearance of HIV disease in the late 1970s, PCP

was so rare as to be virtually unknown to most physicians and the

drugs used to treat it so rare as to be available only by special

request from the Centers for Disease Control. The appearance of

clustered cases of PCP was in fact key to the realization that a new

disease had appeared in the population. If PCP was truly found in

Eliza Jane Scovill, the medical examiner's report might easily end

there as a proven case of AIDS. However, if it was another form of

pneumonia, other tests would be needed to confirm that death was due

to AIDS. For now, we simply lack the specifics on the cause of death

and can only presume that the Medical Examiner's office knows what

it is talking about. And if it does, the diagnosis raises

devastating questions about child endangerment, improper medical

care by physicians, and a failure of child welfare agencies to

protect a child who need not have died. Moreoever, it makes a

profound statement that HIV denialism is more than a misguided

opinion; it is deadly and dangerous misinformation. Using today's

tools, blocking mother-to-child transmission of HIV is all but fool

proof. Moreover, treatment of HIV in those infected has an extremely

high success rate. So the question that must be answered is " What

went so tragically wrong as to result in the death of this innocent

child? " Maggiore says of herself " I am a devastated, broken,

grieving mother, but I am not second-guessing or questioning my

understanding of the issue. " No one questions the first half of her

statement. Her pain is no doubt real and she has surely suffered.

But when the first half of her statement is placed back to back with

the second half, it causes one's jaw to drop. She has paid the

ultimate price for her ill-founded beliefs and for spreading life-

threatening misinformation to thousands -- she has paid with the

life of her own child. Yet she clings to her beliefs, beliefs that

contradict the universal conclusions of the world's most

knowledgeable scientists and physicians. Perhaps it's easier to

cling to these misguided beliefs than to face one's culpability. She

continued in the LA Times: " Would I redo anything based on what

happened? I don't think I would. I think I acted with the best

information and the best of intentions with all my heart. " Leaving

her intentions aside, unless she knows something about the Medical

Examiner's report that is shielded from everyone else, the statement

speaks of an astonishing intellectual arrogance. How can anyone

conclude that the tiny smattering of claims made by denialists,

almost none of whom are experts in the field or people who have

actually conducted any AIDS research, constitutes " the best

information " She is convinced that her personal reading of a field

of science, in which she has no training or credentials, is right

and thousands of the best trained scientists on the planet are

wrong. She remains so convinced of her own " rightness " perhaps

because to do otherwise now would force her to acknowledge that her

beliefs and stubbornness may have played a role in the death of her

daughter. Given that she also achieved a degree of fame and

financial gain from these beliefs, it will be interesting to see

what the L.A. Country District Attorney has to say about the death

of her daughter. We have read her book, studied her website and

followed the lines of thinking proposed by the scientists she claims

to respect. We find nothing new, nothing deep, nothing challenging.

We see only a restatement of claims made mostly in the 1980's by

Duesberg and long since repeatedly refuted and rejected by the

scientific community. We find her arguments against the role of HIV

in AIDS to be facile, easily answered and overcome. They are views

and conclusions that only make sense if you know little or nothing

of the actual science of AIDS. Once you become familiar with great

bulk of the research on AIDS, it is easy to see why so many

scientists consider the beliefs of the denialists to be " pseudo-

science. " Similar cults of pseudo-science exist in most fields.

Seldom, however, do people bet their own lives and the lives of

their children on such beliefs. Is it right, is it fair, for a child

to pay with her life for this level of arrogance on the part of a

parent? There should be no surprise that child welfare officers are

investigating the case. And what of the three doctors who stood by

and saw only a minor illness as this child slipped from life to

death? The only thing that can be said in their defense is that

apparently none had much, if any experience, with the diagnosis or

treatment of HIV disease. The blame for the selection of such

physicians must also fall upon the parents. Doctors were apparently

selected based on their willingness to accept the parent's

unconventional views, rather than on their competence in treating

two children who may have been exposed to HIV through birth. Still,

physicians take an oath to do no harm. These three must answer to

that oath. Surely, the word denial has seldom had a more clear

definition that what is seen here. Ms. Maggiore and her partner face

a terrible dilemma in their grief. They are faced with acknowledging

the possibility they have been horribly wrong but so far have not

done so. By definition, every honest respecter of science

acknowledges the possibility, even the likelihood of error. What

could motivate Maggiore and Scovill to close off all possible

admission of error? Just one thing: if they acknowledge error, they

must accept responsibility for the loss of their daughter. A

denialist dilemma indeed. Yet perhaps nothing is more disturbing

than the final comment made by Ms. Maggiore herself on a website she

posted about the loss of her child: " Why our child -- so

appreciated, so held, so carefully nurtured -- and not one ignored,

abused or abandoned? " she wrote. " How come what we offered was not

enough to keep her here when children with far less -- impatient

distracted parents, a small apartment on a busy street, extended day

care, Mayer Lunchables -- will happily stay? " What to make of

that final sentence, wondering why this happened to her daughter,

who, we learn repeatedly, was cherished and given the finer things

of life, when it didn't happen to " impatient distracted parents, "

people who put their children in " a small apartment on a busy

street " and used " extended day care " and gave them " Mayer

Lunchables " (instead of organic meals?). What is she saying, perhaps

that it would have been more appropriate for a poorer family to lose

their child? Maybe that poorer family had the wisdom to listen to

their doctor. Who, indeed, were the wiser parents?