Re: Notes from an aging hippie

[Guest guest]

I'm not being argumentative and I respect everyone's opinions...I myself am torn

between revenge, justice, peace and war but what about the innocent children WE

will be killing?

My husband also served in Desert Storm. He lived right out there in the desert

too, so don't think I'm not patriotic but isn't it time to stop the killing.

How about the times the US " butted " into other countries affairs in the name of

" peace " ? That's one of the reasons this bin Laden is so pissed at us. If a

country asks us to come help them, that's one thing but for us to just decide to

go and " invade " a country because WE thought we should, well that's another....

Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

Pennsylvania

----- Original Message -----

From: djackht@...

I fear death in combat, but not near as much as I fear something happening to

my children, who have nothing to do with this. Much like the children on the

planes that crashed, or the innocents in the buildings.

[Guest guest]

I'm not being argumentative and I respect everyone's opinions...I myself am torn

between revenge, justice, peace and war but what about the innocent children WE

will be killing?

My husband also served in Desert Storm. He lived right out there in the desert

too, so don't think I'm not patriotic but isn't it time to stop the killing.

How about the times the US " butted " into other countries affairs in the name of

" peace " ? That's one of the reasons this bin Laden is so pissed at us. If a

country asks us to come help them, that's one thing but for us to just decide to

go and " invade " a country because WE thought we should, well that's another....

Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

Pennsylvania

----- Original Message -----

From: djackht@...

I fear death in combat, but not near as much as I fear something happening to

my children, who have nothing to do with this. Much like the children on the

planes that crashed, or the innocents in the buildings.

[Guest guest]

I agree with you Bonnie about restricting immigrants. times have changed, we can

no longer allow every single person into the country.

I am also sickened by the fact that they used our schools, airplanes and any

other American means in their act of terrorism. That is just a slap in the face

to all Americans.

Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

Pennsylvania

----- Original Message -----

From: devitb@...

Also, more has to be done about the US " open door " policy. I know that many

will disagree with me but times have changed so much that we need to heavily

restrict those wishing to enter our great country. These terrorists got their

education and training here and to me that is the most sickening thing I can

imagine.

[Guest guest]

I agree with you Bonnie about restricting immigrants. times have changed, we can

no longer allow every single person into the country.

I am also sickened by the fact that they used our schools, airplanes and any

other American means in their act of terrorism. That is just a slap in the face

to all Americans.

Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

Pennsylvania

----- Original Message -----

From: devitb@...

Also, more has to be done about the US " open door " policy. I know that many

will disagree with me but times have changed so much that we need to heavily

restrict those wishing to enter our great country. These terrorists got their

education and training here and to me that is the most sickening thing I can

imagine.

[Guest guest]

Jackie,

Not downing you at all but when you read this it does sound like you mean now

not before. Sometimes it's hard to get our true meanings in writing.

I no way feel ill towards you for your post.

Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

Pennsylvania

Re: Notes from an aging hippie

I am resending my post from this morning so that no one on this list thinks I

felt bad that NYC was getting money to rebuild. I clearly stated that the

money should have been used BEFORE this tragedy, not denied to NYC now.

Please reread it, .

Thanks, Jackie

Here it is:

Maybe the US govt should have considered putting the millions of dollars they

are giving NYC to clean up this tragedy into beefing up intelligence and

thwarting these jerks from entering OUR country, OUR flight schools, and OUR

lives before something like this happened.

[Guest guest]

Jackie,

Not downing you at all but when you read this it does sound like you mean now

not before. Sometimes it's hard to get our true meanings in writing.

I no way feel ill towards you for your post.

Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

Pennsylvania

Re: Notes from an aging hippie

I am resending my post from this morning so that no one on this list thinks I

felt bad that NYC was getting money to rebuild. I clearly stated that the

money should have been used BEFORE this tragedy, not denied to NYC now.

Please reread it, .

Thanks, Jackie

Here it is:

Maybe the US govt should have considered putting the millions of dollars they

are giving NYC to clean up this tragedy into beefing up intelligence and

thwarting these jerks from entering OUR country, OUR flight schools, and OUR

lives before something like this happened.

[Guest guest]

We're not " butting " in to bin Laden's business. He made it our business when

he attacked us, remember? Beth

[Guest guest]

We're not " butting " in to bin Laden's business. He made it our business when

he attacked us, remember? Beth

[Guest guest]

You can bet CNN will give us a good light show if we go to war, Di. Just as

they did during Desert Storm. But they will not show us any footage of the

dead babies we kill, just as they did not during Desert Storm.

Love, peace and joy,

granny

---

" O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a

female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each

other ... " al-Qur'an 49:13

http://www.bspyle.com/granny.html

Re: Notes from an aging hippie

> I'm not being argumentative and I respect everyone's opinions...I myself

am torn between revenge, justice, peace and war but what about the innocent

children WE will be killing?

> My husband also served in Desert Storm. He lived right out there in the

desert too, so don't think I'm not patriotic but isn't it time to stop the

killing.

> How about the times the US " butted " into other countries affairs in the

name of " peace " ? That's one of the reasons this bin Laden is so pissed at

us. If a country asks us to come help them, that's one thing but for us to

just decide to go and " invade " a country because WE thought we should, well

that's another....

> Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

> Pennsylvania

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: djackht@...

>

>

> I fear death in combat, but not near as much as I fear something

happening to my children, who have nothing to do with this. Much like the

children on the

> planes that crashed, or the innocents in the buildings.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You can bet CNN will give us a good light show if we go to war, Di. Just as

they did during Desert Storm. But they will not show us any footage of the

dead babies we kill, just as they did not during Desert Storm.

Love, peace and joy,

granny

---

" O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a

female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each

other ... " al-Qur'an 49:13

http://www.bspyle.com/granny.html

Re: Notes from an aging hippie

> I'm not being argumentative and I respect everyone's opinions...I myself

am torn between revenge, justice, peace and war but what about the innocent

children WE will be killing?

> My husband also served in Desert Storm. He lived right out there in the

desert too, so don't think I'm not patriotic but isn't it time to stop the

killing.

> How about the times the US " butted " into other countries affairs in the

name of " peace " ? That's one of the reasons this bin Laden is so pissed at

us. If a country asks us to come help them, that's one thing but for us to

just decide to go and " invade " a country because WE thought we should, well

that's another....

> Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

> Pennsylvania

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: djackht@...

>

>

> I fear death in combat, but not near as much as I fear something

happening to my children, who have nothing to do with this. Much like the

children on the

> planes that crashed, or the innocents in the buildings.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

A family on one of the planes included the 2 and 4 year old daughters

and 3 elementary students were on another plane.

I wouldn't agree that there should be any indiscriminate or reckless use

of power, but the group responsible will do it again if nothing is done

to stop them. The Pentagon daycare isn't in the building, but it's

nearby--what if that had been hit?

We got babies too.

Judi

Re: Notes from an aging hippie

You can bet CNN will give us a good light show if we go to war, Di. Just

as they did during Desert Storm. But they will not show us any footage

of the dead babies we kill, just as they did not during Desert Storm.

Love, peace and joy,

granny

---

" O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a

female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each

other ... " al-Qur'an 49:13 http://www.bspyle.com/granny.html

Re: Notes from an aging hippie

> I'm not being argumentative and I respect everyone's opinions...I

> myself

am torn between revenge, justice, peace and war but what about the

innocent children WE will be killing?

> My husband also served in Desert Storm. He lived right out there in

> the

desert too, so don't think I'm not patriotic but isn't it time to stop

the killing.

> How about the times the US " butted " into other countries affairs in

> the

name of " peace " ? That's one of the reasons this bin Laden is so pissed

at us. If a country asks us to come help them, that's one thing but for

us to just decide to go and " invade " a country because WE thought we

should, well that's another....

> Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

> Pennsylvania

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: djackht@...

>

>

> I fear death in combat, but not near as much as I fear something

happening to my children, who have nothing to do with this. Much like

the children on the

> planes that crashed, or the innocents in the buildings.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

A family on one of the planes included the 2 and 4 year old daughters

and 3 elementary students were on another plane.

I wouldn't agree that there should be any indiscriminate or reckless use

of power, but the group responsible will do it again if nothing is done

to stop them. The Pentagon daycare isn't in the building, but it's

nearby--what if that had been hit?

We got babies too.

Judi

Re: Notes from an aging hippie

You can bet CNN will give us a good light show if we go to war, Di. Just

as they did during Desert Storm. But they will not show us any footage

of the dead babies we kill, just as they did not during Desert Storm.

Love, peace and joy,

granny

---

" O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a

female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each

other ... " al-Qur'an 49:13 http://www.bspyle.com/granny.html

Re: Notes from an aging hippie

> I'm not being argumentative and I respect everyone's opinions...I

> myself

am torn between revenge, justice, peace and war but what about the

innocent children WE will be killing?

> My husband also served in Desert Storm. He lived right out there in

> the

desert too, so don't think I'm not patriotic but isn't it time to stop

the killing.

> How about the times the US " butted " into other countries affairs in

> the

name of " peace " ? That's one of the reasons this bin Laden is so pissed

at us. If a country asks us to come help them, that's one thing but for

us to just decide to go and " invade " a country because WE thought we

should, well that's another....

> Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

> Pennsylvania

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: djackht@...

>

>

> I fear death in combat, but not near as much as I fear something

happening to my children, who have nothing to do with this. Much like

the children on the

> planes that crashed, or the innocents in the buildings.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I came across this letter on the internet. Maybe interesting for those

who want to 'nuke' everyone. Sometimes things are not so simple and revenge

is an understandable emotion but not the 'right' one.

I know its easy for me to talk about this so many miles away but it

also helps to keep perspective.

And lets get one thing straight...this is not only an attack on the US

but on every righteous human being.

Imagine all the people living live in peace.

Rob

A dreamer

Written by an Afghani in the U.S.

I've been hearing a lot of talk about " bombing Afghanistan back to the

Stone Age. " Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean

killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity,

but " we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we

do? " Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we " have the

belly to do what must be done. " And I thought about the issues being raised

especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived

here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want

to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who deeply hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. My

hatred comes from first hand experience. There is no doubt in my mind that

these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that

something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden

are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The

Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997.

Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think

Nazis. When you think Bin Laden,think Hitler. And when you think " the people

of Afghanistan " think " the Jews in the concentration camps. "

It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this

atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult

if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats

nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The

answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few

years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled

orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are

millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in

mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all

destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the

Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of " bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone

Age " . Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already.

Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses?

Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their

hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine

and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would

only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban?

Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the

means to move around. They'd slip away and hide.

Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't

move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and

dropping bombs would not really be a strike against the criminals who did

this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the

Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with

true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there

with ground troops. When people speak of " having the belly to do what needs

to be done " they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as

needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent

people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table

is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting

their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than

that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go

through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan

would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see

where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he

wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all

right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem

ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the

West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those

lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even

better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the

West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years

and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for

that?

Unfortunately, Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

In Peace,

Tamim Ansary

[Guest guest]

I came across this letter on the internet. Maybe interesting for those

who want to 'nuke' everyone. Sometimes things are not so simple and revenge

is an understandable emotion but not the 'right' one.

I know its easy for me to talk about this so many miles away but it

also helps to keep perspective.

And lets get one thing straight...this is not only an attack on the US

but on every righteous human being.

Imagine all the people living live in peace.

Rob

A dreamer

Written by an Afghani in the U.S.

I've been hearing a lot of talk about " bombing Afghanistan back to the

Stone Age. " Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean

killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity,

but " we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we

do? " Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we " have the

belly to do what must be done. " And I thought about the issues being raised

especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived

here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want

to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who deeply hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. My

hatred comes from first hand experience. There is no doubt in my mind that

these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that

something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden

are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The

Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997.

Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think

Nazis. When you think Bin Laden,think Hitler. And when you think " the people

of Afghanistan " think " the Jews in the concentration camps. "

It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this

atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult

if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats

nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The

answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few

years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled

orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are

millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in

mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all

destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the

Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of " bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone

Age " . Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already.

Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses?

Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their

hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine

and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would

only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban?

Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the

means to move around. They'd slip away and hide.

Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't

move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and

dropping bombs would not really be a strike against the criminals who did

this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the

Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with

true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there

with ground troops. When people speak of " having the belly to do what needs

to be done " they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as

needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent

people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table

is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting

their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than

that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go

through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan

would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see

where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he

wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all

right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem

ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the

West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those

lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even

better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the

West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years

and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for

that?

Unfortunately, Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

In Peace,

Tamim Ansary

[Guest guest]

I wasn't referring to this incident I was referring to the past.

Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

Pennsylvania

Re: Notes from an aging hippie

We're not " butting " in to bin Laden's business. He made it our business when

he attacked us, remember? Beth

[Guest guest]

I wasn't referring to this incident I was referring to the past.

Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

Pennsylvania

Re: Notes from an aging hippie

We're not " butting " in to bin Laden's business. He made it our business when

he attacked us, remember? Beth

[Guest guest]

This tragedy has hit very close to home for our family and friends. Our

school

is now the home to over half a dozen fatherless children. My daughter's best

friend is still waiting for her Uncle Terry to come home (he was a NY fireman

sent into the WTC to help rescue the injured on Tuesday and has not

been seen since). Another family around the corner is mourning their

Aunt/sister who worked in the WTC. My boss lost two childhood friends

who were employees of Cantor Fitzgerald (over 700 employees lost their

lives). My husband had just finished a job at WTC 4 days prior to the

attack.

I have no more love in my heart to give to these people all my love is

with the victims, their families, and all the rescue workers, FDNY, NYPD and

volunteers who have given so much. No amount of love or forgiveness would

change these animals. Death is too good for them....a slow, torturous,

dismemberment would be my idea of justice!!!! But since it is not possible

I am standing behind our GREAT president and any decision he makes and

will gladly support taking them out by force. We have no choice and for those

of you who think we do come down to ground zero to view and smell the

carnage!! Got to run the tears are flowing again as they have everyday for

over a week now...........

Bonnie from Long Island

Mom to -11, twins and (ds)-3

[Guest guest]

This tragedy has hit very close to home for our family and friends. Our

school

is now the home to over half a dozen fatherless children. My daughter's best

friend is still waiting for her Uncle Terry to come home (he was a NY fireman

sent into the WTC to help rescue the injured on Tuesday and has not

been seen since). Another family around the corner is mourning their

Aunt/sister who worked in the WTC. My boss lost two childhood friends

who were employees of Cantor Fitzgerald (over 700 employees lost their

lives). My husband had just finished a job at WTC 4 days prior to the

attack.

I have no more love in my heart to give to these people all my love is

with the victims, their families, and all the rescue workers, FDNY, NYPD and

volunteers who have given so much. No amount of love or forgiveness would

change these animals. Death is too good for them....a slow, torturous,

dismemberment would be my idea of justice!!!! But since it is not possible

I am standing behind our GREAT president and any decision he makes and

will gladly support taking them out by force. We have no choice and for those

of you who think we do come down to ground zero to view and smell the

carnage!! Got to run the tears are flowing again as they have everyday for

over a week now...........

Bonnie from Long Island

Mom to -11, twins and (ds)-3

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/19/01 11:22:53 PM Central Daylight Time, devitb@...

writes:

> We have no choice and for those

> of you who think we do come down to ground zero to view and smell the

> carnage!! Got to run the tears are flowing again as they have everyday

for

> over a week now...........

>

> Bonnie from Long Island

Bonnie, sending you and your family ((((((((hugs)))))))) please know I stand

beside you....just miles away in TN no one can know your pain, no BOOK

could even describe it, no QUOTES to say. Please know you are supported and

you can lean this way

" Let no one divide us, for we share a bond because of our kids and with that

the politics and differences of faith, do NOT matter " Heard this somewhere

....oh yeah she's on our list .........great lady

Kathy mom to Sara 9

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/19/01 11:22:53 PM Central Daylight Time, devitb@...

writes:

> We have no choice and for those

> of you who think we do come down to ground zero to view and smell the

> carnage!! Got to run the tears are flowing again as they have everyday

for

> over a week now...........

>

> Bonnie from Long Island

Bonnie, sending you and your family ((((((((hugs)))))))) please know I stand

beside you....just miles away in TN no one can know your pain, no BOOK

could even describe it, no QUOTES to say. Please know you are supported and

you can lean this way

" Let no one divide us, for we share a bond because of our kids and with that

the politics and differences of faith, do NOT matter " Heard this somewhere

....oh yeah she's on our list .........great lady

Kathy mom to Sara 9

[Guest guest]

<<The news is jaded and there is

so much the rest of the world doesnt even know about what is really

going on.

Like the funerals, the memorials, the interruption to our daily lives.

To

the tears we have to explain to our kids. The jumping every time we

hear a

phone ring for fear of bad or sad news. To the now motherless,

fatherless

children and the widows at 30 years old. To the teenagers so full of

anger

that they talk of bombs blowing up their houses, their schools. To the

4

year olds who really dont understand. To the 7 year olds who only wants

his

life and cartoons back and cant understand, why all the flags all of a

sudden?>>

I hear you. The magnitude is less in Washington, but this is all in

evidence, especially the disruptive quality--just commuting in (which

was already a great BIG pain) has gotten to be an even bigger hassle

with all the ID checks and extra security and people are leaving very

early in the morning just to get to work anywhere near on time. Parking

is more restricted too.

What bugs me is that at the same time there is a litany about getting

back to regular business and normalcy--uh, hello? How are we supposed

to do that exactly?

Judi

[Guest guest]

<<The news is jaded and there is

so much the rest of the world doesnt even know about what is really

going on.

Like the funerals, the memorials, the interruption to our daily lives.

To

the tears we have to explain to our kids. The jumping every time we

hear a

phone ring for fear of bad or sad news. To the now motherless,

fatherless

children and the widows at 30 years old. To the teenagers so full of

anger

that they talk of bombs blowing up their houses, their schools. To the

4

year olds who really dont understand. To the 7 year olds who only wants

his

life and cartoons back and cant understand, why all the flags all of a

sudden?>>

I hear you. The magnitude is less in Washington, but this is all in

evidence, especially the disruptive quality--just commuting in (which

was already a great BIG pain) has gotten to be an even bigger hassle

with all the ID checks and extra security and people are leaving very

early in the morning just to get to work anywhere near on time. Parking

is more restricted too.

What bugs me is that at the same time there is a litany about getting

back to regular business and normalcy--uh, hello? How are we supposed

to do that exactly?

Judi

[Guest guest]

Let's be careful that we do not become baby killers, too, Judi. We do not

want to become that which we denounce.

granny

---

" O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a

female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each

other ... " al-Qur'an 49:13

http://www.bspyle.com/granny.html

Re: Notes from an aging hippie

>

>

> > I'm not being argumentative and I respect everyone's opinions...I

> > myself

> am torn between revenge, justice, peace and war but what about the

> innocent children WE will be killing?

> > My husband also served in Desert Storm. He lived right out there in

> > the

> desert too, so don't think I'm not patriotic but isn't it time to stop

> the killing.

> > How about the times the US " butted " into other countries affairs in

> > the

> name of " peace " ? That's one of the reasons this bin Laden is so pissed

> at us. If a country asks us to come help them, that's one thing but for

> us to just decide to go and " invade " a country because WE thought we

> should, well that's another....

> > Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

> > Pennsylvania

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: djackht@...

> >

> >

> > I fear death in combat, but not near as much as I fear something

> happening to my children, who have nothing to do with this. Much like

> the children on the

> > planes that crashed, or the innocents in the buildings.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Let's be careful that we do not become baby killers, too, Judi. We do not

want to become that which we denounce.

granny

---

" O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a

female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each

other ... " al-Qur'an 49:13

http://www.bspyle.com/granny.html

Re: Notes from an aging hippie

>

>

> > I'm not being argumentative and I respect everyone's opinions...I

> > myself

> am torn between revenge, justice, peace and war but what about the

> innocent children WE will be killing?

> > My husband also served in Desert Storm. He lived right out there in

> > the

> desert too, so don't think I'm not patriotic but isn't it time to stop

> the killing.

> > How about the times the US " butted " into other countries affairs in

> > the

> name of " peace " ? That's one of the reasons this bin Laden is so pissed

> at us. If a country asks us to come help them, that's one thing but for

> us to just decide to go and " invade " a country because WE thought we

> should, well that's another....

> > Di, mom to Jake(18,nda) and 4 (DS)

> > Pennsylvania

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: djackht@...

> >

> >

> > I fear death in combat, but not near as much as I fear something

> happening to my children, who have nothing to do with this. Much like

> the children on the

> > planes that crashed, or the innocents in the buildings.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Where is Lennon now that we need him?

granny

---

" O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a

female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each

other ... " al-Qur'an 49:13

http://www.bspyle.com/granny.html

RE: Notes from an aging hippie

> I came across this letter on the internet. Maybe interesting for

those

> who want to 'nuke' everyone. Sometimes things are not so simple and

revenge

> is an understandable emotion but not the 'right' one.

>

> I know its easy for me to talk about this so many miles away but it

> also helps to keep perspective.

> And lets get one thing straight...this is not only an attack on the

US

> but on every righteous human being.

>

> Imagine all the people living live in peace.

>

> Rob

> A dreamer

>

>

>

>

>

> Written by an Afghani in the U.S.

>

>

>

> I've been hearing a lot of talk about " bombing Afghanistan back to

the

> Stone Age. " Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would

mean

> killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity,

> but " we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we

> do? " Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we " have the

> belly to do what must be done. " And I thought about the issues being

raised

> especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived

> here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I

want

> to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

>

> I speak as one who deeply hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. My

> hatred comes from first hand experience. There is no doubt in my mind that

> these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that

> something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden

> are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The

> Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in

1997.

> Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban,

think

> Nazis. When you think Bin Laden,think Hitler. And when you think " the

people

> of Afghanistan " think " the Jews in the concentration camps. "

>

>

> It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this

> atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would

exult

> if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the

rats

> nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

>

> Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban?

The

> answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A

few

> years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled

> orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are

> millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in

> mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all

> destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the

> Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

>

> We come now to the question of " bombing Afghanistan back to the

Stone

> Age " . Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already.

> Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses?

> Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their

> hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine

> and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would

> only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the

Taliban?

> Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have

the

> means to move around. They'd slip away and hide.

>

> Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't

> move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and

> dropping bombs would not really be a strike against the criminals who did

> this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with

the

> Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this

time.

>

> So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with

> true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there

> with ground troops. When people speak of " having the belly to do what

needs

> to be done " they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many

as

> needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing

innocent

> people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table

> is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting

> their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger

than

> that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go

> through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan

> would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see

> where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the

West.

>

> And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he

> wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all

> right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem

> ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the

> West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those

> lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's

even

> better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the

> West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years

> and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for

> that?

>

>

> Unfortunately, Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

>

> In Peace,

> Tamim Ansary

>

>

>

>

>

>