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Great dialog! Great value system and motives but, it's all about money. So now what? Our much esteemed independent natures are being used against us not only in the legislature as we have seen this year, but directly in the marketplace. There is no doubt that a profession is being whittled away for .10 on the dollar, maybe more, and being relplaced by a very alternative health option who's mainstay is being assimilated by the rest of health care(manipulation/adjustive technique). When we should be the pinnacle of academia and art in the arena of physical medicine(or the replacement of), possibly a powerful adjunct in internal medicine, we sit here as a profession romanticising our philosophy, our independence, what is right and wrong and all. We know the story. The result of which reminds me of the Wilk discovery phase when the first and foremost goal of our competitors was to allow chiropractic to "wither and die on the vine." Is the beast getting its way? The future can be bright for ailing humanity and this profession if there can be some unity. Managed care is the nasty reality we all must deal with. Those with cash practices(I bet there are very few) must deal with managed care. How you ask? What happens to a profession when its cash flow is so low it cannot defend itself in the legislature? What will happen to the cash practice eventually? This profession needs cash flow, it needs some political control over its destiny. How much of those two things do you see?

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Are you suggesting that chiropractors assume the role of therapists as

adjuncts to physicians? This is the niche that chiropractic has been placed

in by the medical establishment in Canada. There is a great danger to

chiropractic autonomy if we assume the role of rehabilitation or physical

therapists not to mention the disservice to patients who are denied access

to chiropractic primary care. Meridel

----------

From: Lumsden <lumsden@...>

drmfreeman@...; ; cdc@...

Subject: Re: Managed care

Date: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:41 AM

Great dialog! Great value system and motives but, it's all about money.

So now what? Our much esteemed independent natures are being used against

us not only in the legislature as we have seen this year, but directly in

the marketplace. There is no doubt that a profession is being whittled

away for .10 on the dollar, maybe more, and being relplaced by a very

alternative health option who's mainstay is being assimilated by the rest

of health care(manipulation/adjustive technique). When we should be the

pinnacle of academia and art in the arena of physical medicine(or the

replacement of), possibly a powerful adjunct in internal medicine, we sit

here as a profession romanticising our philosophy, our independence, what

is right and wrong and all. We know the story. The result of which

reminds me of the Wilk discovery phase when the first and foremost goal of

our competitors was to allow chiropractic to " wither and die on the vine. "

Is the beast getting its way? The future can be bright for ailing humanity

and this profession if there can be some unity. Managed care is the nasty

reality we all must deal with. Those with cash practices(I bet there are

very few) must deal with managed care. How you ask? What happens to a

profession when its cash flow is so low it cannot defend itself in the

legislature? What will happen to the cash practice eventually? This

profession needs cash flow, it needs some political control over its

destiny. How much of those two things do you see?

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Positively not! I am saying that our autonomy is in jeapardy by the

perception of those outside of the profession making decisions in health

care, the lack of solidarity within this profession, and the contracts and

service parameters in existance through managed care. It is very difficult,

if not impossible in most cases, to function as a physician within the

confines of most existing managed care contracts. Because of this, our

identities are being redefined, and confirmed by the perceptions and track

record such create. This fact causes me a great deal of heartache,

especially when I see little interest or understanding of what is occuring

within my profession. I have even wondered if I am out of line, maybe a

narrow subordinate scope(in spite of our training to practice as physicians)

is what the profession at large wants. Maybe I should be quiet?

Re: Managed care

> Date: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:41 AM

>

> Great dialog! Great value system and motives but, it's all about money.

> So now what? Our much esteemed independent natures are being used against

> us not only in the legislature as we have seen this year, but directly in

> the marketplace. There is no doubt that a profession is being whittled

> away for .10 on the dollar, maybe more, and being relplaced by a very

> alternative health option who's mainstay is being assimilated by the rest

> of health care(manipulation/adjustive technique). When we should be the

> pinnacle of academia and art in the arena of physical medicine(or the

> replacement of), possibly a powerful adjunct in internal medicine, we sit

> here as a profession romanticising our philosophy, our independence, what

> is right and wrong and all. We know the story. The result of which

> reminds me of the Wilk discovery phase when the first and foremost goal of

> our competitors was to allow chiropractic to " wither and die on the vine. "

> Is the beast getting its way? The future can be bright for ailing

humanity

> and this profession if there can be some unity. Managed care is the nasty

> reality we all must deal with. Those with cash practices(I bet there are

> very few) must deal with managed care. How you ask? What happens to a

> profession when its cash flow is so low it cannot defend itself in the

> legislature? What will happen to the cash practice eventually? This

> profession needs cash flow, it needs some political control over its

> destiny. How much of those two things do you see?

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Dr. Lumsden:

If you do in fact " be quiet " instead of addressing to the best of your

ability, every day, every challenge you have noted facing our beloved

profession, I will interpret that lack of action as an invitation to come

and personally administer a professional quality ass-kicking. So speak up.

Stand up. " Lead, follow, or get out of the way "

yours in health,

Jack Pedersen, DC

Sweet Home

Re: Managed care

> > Date: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:41 AM

> >

> > Great dialog! Great value system and motives but, it's all about money.

> > So now what? Our much esteemed independent natures are being used

against

> > us not only in the legislature as we have seen this year, but directly

in

> > the marketplace. There is no doubt that a profession is being whittled

> > away for .10 on the dollar, maybe more, and being relplaced by a very

> > alternative health option who's mainstay is being assimilated by the

rest

> > of health care(manipulation/adjustive technique). When we should be the

> > pinnacle of academia and art in the arena of physical medicine(or the

> > replacement of), possibly a powerful adjunct in internal medicine, we

sit

> > here as a profession romanticising our philosophy, our independence,

what

> > is right and wrong and all. We know the story. The result of which

> > reminds me of the Wilk discovery phase when the first and foremost goal

of

> > our competitors was to allow chiropractic to " wither and die on the

vine. "

> > Is the beast getting its way? The future can be bright for ailing

> humanity

> > and this profession if there can be some unity. Managed care is the

nasty

> > reality we all must deal with. Those with cash practices(I bet there

are

> > very few) must deal with managed care. How you ask? What happens to a

> > profession when its cash flow is so low it cannot defend itself in the

> > legislature? What will happen to the cash practice eventually? This

> > profession needs cash flow, it needs some political control over its

> > destiny. How much of those two things do you see?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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Thanks Jack, your attitude is of the type that will win this thing for us.

I do appreciate this encouragement. Best regards, Steve

Re: Managed care

> > > Date: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:41 AM

> > >

> > > Great dialog! Great value system and motives but, it's all about

money.

> > > So now what? Our much esteemed independent natures are being used

> against

> > > us not only in the legislature as we have seen this year, but directly

> in

> > > the marketplace. There is no doubt that a profession is being

whittled

> > > away for .10 on the dollar, maybe more, and being relplaced by a very

> > > alternative health option who's mainstay is being assimilated by the

> rest

> > > of health care(manipulation/adjustive technique). When we should be

the

> > > pinnacle of academia and art in the arena of physical medicine(or the

> > > replacement of), possibly a powerful adjunct in internal medicine, we

> sit

> > > here as a profession romanticising our philosophy, our independence,

> what

> > > is right and wrong and all. We know the story. The result of which

> > > reminds me of the Wilk discovery phase when the first and foremost

goal

> of

> > > our competitors was to allow chiropractic to " wither and die on the

> vine. "

> > > Is the beast getting its way? The future can be bright for ailing

> > humanity

> > > and this profession if there can be some unity. Managed care is the

> nasty

> > > reality we all must deal with. Those with cash practices(I bet there

> are

> > > very few) must deal with managed care. How you ask? What happens to

a

> > > profession when its cash flow is so low it cannot defend itself in the

> > > legislature? What will happen to the cash practice eventually? This

> > > profession needs cash flow, it needs some political control over its

> > > destiny. How much of those two things do you see?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

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the key word here is "heartache."

scott s.

Re: Managed care> Date: Thursday, May 24, 2001 1:41 AM>> Great dialog! Great value system and motives but, it's all about money.> So now what? Our much esteemed independent natures are being used against> us not only in the legislature as we have seen this year, but directly in> the marketplace. There is no doubt that a profession is being whittled> away for .10 on the dollar, maybe more, and being relplaced by a very> alternative health option who's mainstay is being assimilated by the rest> of health care(manipulation/adjustive technique). When we should be the> pinnacle of academia and art in the arena of physical medicine(or the> replacement of), possibly a powerful adjunct in internal medicine, we sit> here as a profession romanticising our philosophy, our independence, what> is right and wrong and all. We know the story. The result of which> reminds me of the Wilk discovery phase when the first and foremost goal of> our competitors was to allow chiropractic to "wither and die on the vine."> Is the beast getting its way? The future can be bright for ailinghumanity> and this profession if there can be some unity. Managed care is the nasty> reality we all must deal with. Those with cash practices(I bet there are> very few) must deal with managed care. How you ask? What happens to a> profession when its cash flow is so low it cannot defend itself in the> legislature? What will happen to the cash practice eventually? This> profession needs cash flow, it needs some political control over its> destiny. How much of those two things do you see?>>>>>>

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Guest guest

Just to clarify for those of you who don't know... the threat to " to come

and personally administer a professional quality ass-kicking " is regarded in

Sweet Home as a collegial and warm response to a fellow chiropractor,

lumber-person, or truck operator.

If Jack had said, " I will send my attorney to to come and administer a

professional quality ass-kicking " , it would have been uncollegial and

considered to be much more Portland-like; unworthy of the fine communication

germaine to the Sweet Home area.

Trying to find unity between the city mice and the country mice,

A.

on 5/24/01 8:13 PM, J Pedersen DC at chirodoc@... wrote:

> Dr. Lumsden:

>

> If you do in fact " be quiet " instead of addressing to the best of your

> ability, every day, every challenge you have noted facing our beloved

> profession, I will interpret that lack of action as an invitation to come

> and personally administer a professional quality ass-kicking. So speak up.

> Stand up. " Lead, follow, or get out of the way "

>

> yours in health,

>

> Jack Pedersen, DC

> Sweet Home

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  • 3 years later...

,What are your thoughts on managed care?

,

I'll go public with this one.

Generally, I think they suck. They treat us poorly, but they treat all docs poorly and they treat the patients worse. Did you know there is something called ERISA regulations that essentially says HMOs aren't held accountable for any decisions they make about a patient's health care? This applies to all people who receive healthcare through their private sector employers. It doesn't apply to governmental employees, Medicare or Medicaid recipients. So the HMO says no, we don't think that's necessary, we don't want to pay for it and you can't do anything about it. You can't sue us. Even if you are badly damaged or killed, there IS NO RECOURSE! No damages. Maybe you can make us pay for the procedure, if you're still alive, but don't count on it.

So now we say that the punishment for bank robbery, if you get caught, is that you have to give the money back, no jail time, no fines, no punishment. What does that do for the rate of bank robbery?

It seriously makes one question whether some governmental management wouldn't be better than the creepy corporations and their blood sucking policies. I know that the Canadian model and a lot of the other models aren't good, but how is this stuff better?

K. Carpentier, D.C., D.A.B.C.O.Burns, OR

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I agree with on everything she says about these knaves. I and some freshly licensed DC's in the Portland area are also examining and researching the legality of some of the organizations as they pertain to new applicants to their programs. Under the current system of say CHP or Chironet, they limit the amount of chiropractic providers that may be allowed membership in a certain area. They come up with some (money saving) ratio of population to chiropractor and decide exactly how many chiropractors are allowed membership. In areas such as Portland, it is saturated, meaning they take no more applications and place you on a waiting list. (i've been on a waiting list for 3 years). Someone must die or move in order to make room. Physicians that are licensed and ready to deliver high quality health care are turned away and not allowed to participate due to "saturation." These doctors are not allowed hence to accept a great deal of insurance plans offered in Oregon. They are not allowed to compete in a free market system. The older physicians sit back and face no competition. This seems to me extremely unfair and detrimental to the profession as a whole. It seems they are creating a monopoly of sorts out of chiorpractors.I must turn people down every day because i CANNOT accept their insurance. Are they likely to refer anyone my way after realizing that? Referrals are also lost by simply not being on the list of providers. And why are a growing number of us being excluded? Because there simply are too many chiropractors in an area?

I recognize the "be careful what you wish for" aspect of this as well as the fact that being a member won't make me rich; but, the fact remains that the more plans one is able to accept,the more tentacles they have out there in the community and the more people they can touch. I challenge a chiropractor who is a member and states " well consider yourself lucky, they are the devil anyway and not worth it" to simply give up their position on the plan in order that fresh blood may be introduced. Don't get me wrong, it's nobody's fault, but theirs. It would be nice if there is a legal issue here to pursue, one that would even the playing field for all. That's what we are researching.

ph Medlin DC

Portland

Re: Managed Care

,What are your thoughts on managed care?

,

I'll go public with this one.

Generally, I think they suck. They treat us poorly, but they treat all docs poorly and they treat the patients worse. Did you know there is something called ERISA regulations that essentially says HMOs aren't held accountable for any decisions they make about a patient's health care? This applies to all people who receive healthcare through their private sector employers. It doesn't apply to governmental employees, Medicare or Medicaid recipients. So the HMO says no, we don't think that's necessary, we don't want to pay for it and you can't do anything about it. You can't sue us. Even if you are badly damaged or killed, there IS NO RECOURSE! No damages. Maybe you can make us pay for the procedure, if you're still alive, but don't count on it.

So now we say that the punishment for bank robbery, if you get caught, is that you have to give the money back, no jail time, no fines, no punishment. What does that do for the rate of bank robbery?

It seriously makes one question whether some governmental management wouldn't be better than the creepy corporations and their blood sucking policies. I know that the Canadian model and a lot of the other models aren't good, but how is this stuff better?

K. Carpentier, D.C., D.A.B.C.O.Burns, OROregonDCs rules:1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks on listserve members will be tolerated.2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere. However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print, forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers have been removed.

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deadmed wrote:

> I agree with on everything she says about these knaves. I

> and some freshly licensed DC's in the Portland area are also examining

> and researching the legality of some of the organizations as they

> pertain to new applicants to their programs. Under the current system

> of say CHP or Chironet, they limit the amount of chiropractic

> providers that may be allowed membership in a certain area. They come

> up with some (money saving) ratio of population to chiropractor and

> decide exactly how many chiropractors are allowed membership. In areas

> such as Portland, it is saturated, meaning they take no more

> applications and place you on a waiting list. (i've been on a waiting

> list for 3 years). Someone must die or move in order to make room.

> Physicians that are licensed and ready to deliver high quality health

> care are turned away and not allowed to participate due to

> " saturation. " These doctors are not allowed hence to accept a great

> deal of insurance plans offered in Oregon. They are not allowed to

> compete in a free market system. The older physicians sit back and

> face no competition. This seems to me extremely unfair and

> detrimental to the profession as a whole. It seems they are creating

> a monopoly of sorts out of chiorpractors.I must turn people down every

> day because i CANNOT accept their insurance. Are they likely to refer

> anyone my way after realizing that? Referrals are also lost by simply

> not being on the list of providers. And why are a growing number of us

> being excluded? Because there simply are too many chiropractors in an

> area?

> I recognize the " be careful what you wish for " aspect of this as

> well as the fact that being a member won't make me rich; but, the fact

> remains that the more plans one is able to accept,the more tentacles

> they have out there in the community and the more people they can

> touch. I challenge a chiropractor who is a member and states " well

> consider yourself lucky, they are the devil anyway and not worth it "

> to simply give up their position on the plan in order that fresh blood

> may be introduced. Don't get me wrong, it's nobody's fault, but

> theirs. It would be nice if there is a legal issue here to pursue, one

> that would even the playing field for all. That's what we are

> researching.

> ph Medlin DC

> Portland

>

> * Re: Managed Care

>

>

> ,

> What are your thoughts on managed care?

>

>

> ,

>

> I'll go public with this one.

>

> Generally, I think they suck. They treat us poorly, but they treat

> all docs poorly and they treat the patients worse. Did you know

> there is something called ERISA regulations that essentially says

> HMOs aren't held accountable for any decisions they make about a

> patient's health care? This applies to all people who receive

> healthcare through their private sector employers. It doesn't

> apply to governmental employees, Medicare or Medicaid recipients.

> So the HMO says no, we don't think that's necessary, we don't want

> to pay for it and you can't do anything about it. You can't sue

> us. Even if you are badly damaged or killed, there IS NO RECOURSE!

> No damages. Maybe you can make us pay for the procedure, if you're

> still alive, but don't count on it.

>

> So now we say that the punishment for bank robbery, if you get

> caught, is that you have to give the money back, no jail time, no

> fines, no punishment. What does that do for the rate of bank robbery?

>

> It seriously makes one question whether some governmental

> management wouldn't be better than the creepy corporations and

> their blood sucking policies. I know that the Canadian model and a

> lot of the other models aren't good, but how is this stuff better?

>

> K. Carpentier, D.C., D.A.B.C.O.

> Burns, OR

>

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve

> is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks

> on listserve members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

> forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

> member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers

> have been removed.

>

>

>

>

> OregonDCs rules:

> 1. Keep correspondence professional; the purpose of the listserve

> is to foster communication and collegiality. No personal attacks

> on listserve members will be tolerated.

> 2. Always sign your e-mails with your first and last name.

> 3. The listserve is not secure; your e-mail could end up anywhere.

> However, it is against the rules of the listserve to copy, print,

> forward, or otherwise distribute correspondence written by another

> member without his or her consent, unless all personal identifiers

> have been removed.

>

>

> *

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  • 5 years later...
Guest guest

The proposed managed care is for the AABD (Aid to the Aged, Blind & Disabled)

poplulation. The Family cases and the Kid-Care cases already have a managed care

model for their medical needs. They need to pick a PCP that accepts Medicaid. If

they need to see a specialist, they need to get a referral from their PCP.

Medicaid is paying for any meds written by a licensed MD. They are already

paying for prescriptions from non-Medicaid drs. There are some individuals who

do not need to pick a PCP: someone having their own commercial health insurance.

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Guest guest

The proposed managed care is for the AABD (Aid to the Aged, Blind & Disabled)

poplulation. The Family cases and the Kid-Care cases already have a managed care

model for their medical needs. They need to pick a PCP that accepts Medicaid. If

they need to see a specialist, they need to get a referral from their PCP.

Medicaid is paying for any meds written by a licensed MD. They are already

paying for prescriptions from non-Medicaid drs. There are some individuals who

do not need to pick a PCP: someone having their own commercial health insurance.

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