Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 You CAN have private Health Insurance AND Medicaid/Medicaid Waiver… Medicaid will always be the secondary payer. __________________________________ Rubin Special Needs Future Planning The Law Offices of Rubin & Associates Office: 847.279.7999 Toll Free: 866-To-Rubin Fax: 847-279-0090 Email: brian@...<mailto:brian@...> Web Site: www.brianrubin.com<http://www.brianrubin.com/> Mail: Buffalo Grove Business Park 1110 West Lake Cook Road Buffalo Grove, Illinois 60089-1997 [cid:image001.gif@...] Ž Rubin has received the dale Hubbell<http://www.martindale.com/> Peer Review Rating of AV Preeminent<http://www.martindale.com/-N-Rubin/903577-lawyer.htm?view=cr>, the highest rating available. Ž Rubin is a member of The Special Needs Alliance<http://www.specialneedsalliance.org/> is a national, not for profit, association of experienced special needs planning attorneys. Membership is by invitation. Rubin serves on the Board of Directors of The Special Needs Alliance. Ž Rubin is a member of the National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys<http://www.naela.org/> and serves on the Special Needs Law Section Steering Committee. Notices: 1. This message does not create an attorney-client relationship, and is not legal advice absent such a relationship with the recipient. This message may contain confidential information protected by the attorney-client and/or work product privilege. The information is only for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not such recipient, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance upon this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify The Law Offices of Rubin & Associates by e-mail and destroy the original message and all copies. 2. IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: TO THE EXTENT THAT THIS MESSAGE OR ANY ATTACHMENT CONCERNS TAX MATTERS, IT IS NOT INTENDED TO BE USED AND CANNOT BE USED BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE PURPOSE OF AVOIDING PENALTIES THAT MAY BE IMPOSED BY LAW. 3. Disclaimer Regarding Electronic Signature. If this communication concerns negotiation of a contract or agreement, electronic signature rules do not apply to this communication: contract formation in this matter shall occur only with manually-affixed original signatures on original documents. The Signature given hereon is not an electronic signature and is provided only for the purposes of providing information as to the identity of the sender and for no other purpose(s) whatsoever. ________________________________ From: IPADDUnite [mailto:IPADDUnite ] On Behalf Of swedegrl2005 Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 4:50 PM IPADDUnite Subject: Re: What We're About Hi Pam. So something you said leaves me wanting some clarification. It is in regards to Josh receiving Il HBSSP. Are you stating that you will be required to drop JOsh from your private insurance coverage OR HAVE TO CHOSE TO STOP RECEIVING IL HOME BASED SERVICES? (Because it is a Medicaid waiver program? ) I knew that when they forced us to apply for Medicaid that we were gonna get screwed some way some how. So we get punished for paying privately to get private insurance (hence, most often BETTER health insurance coverage) than Medicaid? So Sad. Why can't we get the Home based service money MINUS THE MEDICAID. Quite frankly I don't even use the medicaid coverage my son HAS TO RECEIVE AGAINST MY WISHES THAT IS.....), because none of our current doctors or dentists take the damn thing! Pam, please clarify if I am wrong, or tell me that I have this right? Either way I can stop the chest pain I am currently feeling, or will start getting chest pains. Wow! Diane S > > > > Hi - > > Will you please then set some parameters or describe how discussions about lobbying local, state and national law makers can occur without a discussion of the issue ALL while remaining apolitical? > > > > How about this for apolitical discussion: > > > > Several months ago, I was shaken to learn that because my son Josh participates in IL Home Based Support Services Program, the State and Federal government have increased access to his privacy - that is, what is beyond the protections provided to a citizen not participating in a Medicaid waiver program. > > > > > The State of Illinois gave my name and home address to union organizers. And the reason they were able to do so was because I receive a check that comes from the IL HBSSP program. > > > > This intrusion on my privacy motivated me to stand up and loudly protest what I felt was the state of IL forcing me to join a union and pay money to a union via dues or fair share. In turn, the union could use the money to exercise their political muscle on policies that I may agree or disagree with. > > > > Again, I am shaken to learn that the State of Illinois can force us to drop Josh from our private health insurance if he is to continue participating in the IL HBSSP. I don’t know when or if this happen but this is a part of the new healthcare reform law. > > > > I can’t help but to ask: > > Is it worth it? Is the small monetary support worth all of the heavy, inflexible strings that it comes with? Is it worth giving up our privacy? > > > > I am tired of the quarterly visits and the review of our records. I am wondering why Josh has to have an individualized service plan that identifies life goals and documents his progress towards these goals. I don’t have an individualized service plan. I don’t have to report monthly on my progress made towards my life goals. People don't have to sit down at least once a year and examine all aspects of my life - medical, social, familial and discuss it. > > > > Some days, I am shaken to realize what we give up because Josh participates in a Medicaid waiver program. > > > > Thoughts? > Pam > > What We're About > > > > > > > I would echo what Laurie and Ellen have posted about recent posts and add my own comments. > > We are Illinois Parents of Adults with Developmental Disabilities Unite! and our focus is sharing information, strategies, and commiserating about our state and it's woeful stance and services for those with disabilities. We hope we're a place to vent when our loved one is having problems. We hope we can be a place to come together (remember the " Unite! " part of our name?)to lobby our local, state and national law makers when items come up that affect our loved ones. We want you share news in your part of the state, news of your children and news of your lives--this is not an easy life and we all do the best we can and it's great we can come together to share the ride. > > We try to be as apolitical as we can be......in Illinois, that can be a hard thing to do! But we must, or we will turn into something other that what Laurie intended IPADDUnite! to be. Partisan politics have no place here--no matter what side you're on. > > The ONE THING we all agree on is---Illinois SUCKS when it comes to services/programs etc. etc. for those with special needs. I bring up the " Unite! " part of our name again--we are united in our belief we can make it better and be a force in Illinois if WE ARE UNITED IN OUR GOAL TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR OUR CHILDREN. We don't have to agree how to, but we have to trust each other that we all want just about the same thing. > > I have many, many friends who do not share my political beliefs and I try to avoid talking politics with them. I have always been political, since my days at Illini Girls State when I ran for office and in my time " off list " , I am very political. But politics can be polarizing and being polarized from each other is exactly what we can't afford to be if we want to change this state. > > So, be nice. I'll get off my soapbox and leave you and have another cup of coffee. We can all agree that coffee and chocolate can fix anything. > > Marie > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 You CAN have private Health Insurance AND Medicaid/Medicaid Waiver… Medicaid will always be the secondary payer. __________________________________ Rubin Special Needs Future Planning The Law Offices of Rubin & Associates Office: 847.279.7999 Toll Free: 866-To-Rubin Fax: 847-279-0090 Email: brian@...<mailto:brian@...> Web Site: www.brianrubin.com<http://www.brianrubin.com/> Mail: Buffalo Grove Business Park 1110 West Lake Cook Road Buffalo Grove, Illinois 60089-1997 [cid:image001.gif@...] Ž Rubin has received the dale Hubbell<http://www.martindale.com/> Peer Review Rating of AV Preeminent<http://www.martindale.com/-N-Rubin/903577-lawyer.htm?view=cr>, the highest rating available. Ž Rubin is a member of The Special Needs Alliance<http://www.specialneedsalliance.org/> is a national, not for profit, association of experienced special needs planning attorneys. Membership is by invitation. Rubin serves on the Board of Directors of The Special Needs Alliance. Ž Rubin is a member of the National Academy of Elder Law Attorneys<http://www.naela.org/> and serves on the Special Needs Law Section Steering Committee. Notices: 1. This message does not create an attorney-client relationship, and is not legal advice absent such a relationship with the recipient. This message may contain confidential information protected by the attorney-client and/or work product privilege. The information is only for the use of the intended recipient. If you are not such recipient, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance upon this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify The Law Offices of Rubin & Associates by e-mail and destroy the original message and all copies. 2. IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: TO THE EXTENT THAT THIS MESSAGE OR ANY ATTACHMENT CONCERNS TAX MATTERS, IT IS NOT INTENDED TO BE USED AND CANNOT BE USED BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE PURPOSE OF AVOIDING PENALTIES THAT MAY BE IMPOSED BY LAW. 3. Disclaimer Regarding Electronic Signature. If this communication concerns negotiation of a contract or agreement, electronic signature rules do not apply to this communication: contract formation in this matter shall occur only with manually-affixed original signatures on original documents. The Signature given hereon is not an electronic signature and is provided only for the purposes of providing information as to the identity of the sender and for no other purpose(s) whatsoever. ________________________________ From: IPADDUnite [mailto:IPADDUnite ] On Behalf Of swedegrl2005 Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 4:50 PM IPADDUnite Subject: Re: What We're About Hi Pam. So something you said leaves me wanting some clarification. It is in regards to Josh receiving Il HBSSP. Are you stating that you will be required to drop JOsh from your private insurance coverage OR HAVE TO CHOSE TO STOP RECEIVING IL HOME BASED SERVICES? (Because it is a Medicaid waiver program? ) I knew that when they forced us to apply for Medicaid that we were gonna get screwed some way some how. So we get punished for paying privately to get private insurance (hence, most often BETTER health insurance coverage) than Medicaid? So Sad. Why can't we get the Home based service money MINUS THE MEDICAID. Quite frankly I don't even use the medicaid coverage my son HAS TO RECEIVE AGAINST MY WISHES THAT IS.....), because none of our current doctors or dentists take the damn thing! Pam, please clarify if I am wrong, or tell me that I have this right? Either way I can stop the chest pain I am currently feeling, or will start getting chest pains. Wow! Diane S > > > > Hi - > > Will you please then set some parameters or describe how discussions about lobbying local, state and national law makers can occur without a discussion of the issue ALL while remaining apolitical? > > > > How about this for apolitical discussion: > > > > Several months ago, I was shaken to learn that because my son Josh participates in IL Home Based Support Services Program, the State and Federal government have increased access to his privacy - that is, what is beyond the protections provided to a citizen not participating in a Medicaid waiver program. > > > > > The State of Illinois gave my name and home address to union organizers. And the reason they were able to do so was because I receive a check that comes from the IL HBSSP program. > > > > This intrusion on my privacy motivated me to stand up and loudly protest what I felt was the state of IL forcing me to join a union and pay money to a union via dues or fair share. In turn, the union could use the money to exercise their political muscle on policies that I may agree or disagree with. > > > > Again, I am shaken to learn that the State of Illinois can force us to drop Josh from our private health insurance if he is to continue participating in the IL HBSSP. I don’t know when or if this happen but this is a part of the new healthcare reform law. > > > > I can’t help but to ask: > > Is it worth it? Is the small monetary support worth all of the heavy, inflexible strings that it comes with? Is it worth giving up our privacy? > > > > I am tired of the quarterly visits and the review of our records. I am wondering why Josh has to have an individualized service plan that identifies life goals and documents his progress towards these goals. I don’t have an individualized service plan. I don’t have to report monthly on my progress made towards my life goals. People don't have to sit down at least once a year and examine all aspects of my life - medical, social, familial and discuss it. > > > > Some days, I am shaken to realize what we give up because Josh participates in a Medicaid waiver program. > > > > Thoughts? > Pam > > What We're About > > > > > > > I would echo what Laurie and Ellen have posted about recent posts and add my own comments. > > We are Illinois Parents of Adults with Developmental Disabilities Unite! and our focus is sharing information, strategies, and commiserating about our state and it's woeful stance and services for those with disabilities. We hope we're a place to vent when our loved one is having problems. We hope we can be a place to come together (remember the " Unite! " part of our name?)to lobby our local, state and national law makers when items come up that affect our loved ones. We want you share news in your part of the state, news of your children and news of your lives--this is not an easy life and we all do the best we can and it's great we can come together to share the ride. > > We try to be as apolitical as we can be......in Illinois, that can be a hard thing to do! But we must, or we will turn into something other that what Laurie intended IPADDUnite! to be. Partisan politics have no place here--no matter what side you're on. > > The ONE THING we all agree on is---Illinois SUCKS when it comes to services/programs etc. etc. for those with special needs. I bring up the " Unite! " part of our name again--we are united in our belief we can make it better and be a force in Illinois if WE ARE UNITED IN OUR GOAL TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR OUR CHILDREN. We don't have to agree how to, but we have to trust each other that we all want just about the same thing. > > I have many, many friends who do not share my political beliefs and I try to avoid talking politics with them. I have always been political, since my days at Illini Girls State when I ran for office and in my time " off list " , I am very political. But politics can be polarizing and being polarized from each other is exactly what we can't afford to be if we want to change this state. > > So, be nice. I'll get off my soapbox and leave you and have another cup of coffee. We can all agree that coffee and chocolate can fix anything. > > Marie > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 The Healthcare reform bill has made some changes. According to the New York Times article: How the Health Care Overhaul Could Affect You: If your son or daughter is covered under your insurance AND also receives coverage from Medicaid (including Illinois’ Home Based Support Services waiver), the State cannot cut them from Medicaid until the exchanges start operating in 20104 UNLESS the State faces a budget shortfall. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/03/21/us/health-care-reform.html Pam What We're About > > > > > > > I would echo what Laurie and Ellen have posted about recent posts and add my own comments. > > We are Illinois Parents of Adults with Developmental Disabilities Unite! and our focus is sharing information, strategies, and commiserating about our state and it's woeful stance and services for those with disabilities. We hope we're a place to vent when our loved one is having problems. We hope we can be a place to come together (remember the " Unite! " part of our name?)to lobby our local, state and national law makers when items come up that affect our loved ones. We want you share news in your part of the state, news of your children and news of your lives--this is not an easy life and we all do the best we can and it's great we can come together to share the ride. > > We try to be as apolitical as we can be......in Illinois, that can be a hard thing to do! But we must, or we will turn into something other that what Laurie intended IPADDUnite! to be. Partisan politics have no place here--no matter what side you're on. > > The ONE THING we all agree on is---Illinois SUCKS when it comes to services/programs etc. etc. for those with special needs. I bring up the " Unite! " part of our name again--we are united in our belief we can make it better and be a force in Illinois if WE ARE UNITED IN OUR GOAL TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR OUR CHILDREN. We don't have to agree how to, but we have to trust each other that we all want just about the same thing. > > I have many, many friends who do not share my political beliefs and I try to avoid talking politics with them. I have always been political, since my days at Illini Girls State when I ran for office and in my time " off list " , I am very political. But politics can be polarizing and being polarized from each other is exactly what we can't afford to be if we want to change this state. > > So, be nice. I'll get off my soapbox and leave you and have another cup of coffee. We can all agree that coffee and chocolate can fix anything. > > Marie > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 The Healthcare reform bill has made some changes. According to the New York Times article: How the Health Care Overhaul Could Affect You: If your son or daughter is covered under your insurance AND also receives coverage from Medicaid (including Illinois’ Home Based Support Services waiver), the State cannot cut them from Medicaid until the exchanges start operating in 20104 UNLESS the State faces a budget shortfall. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/03/21/us/health-care-reform.html Pam What We're About > > > > > > > I would echo what Laurie and Ellen have posted about recent posts and add my own comments. > > We are Illinois Parents of Adults with Developmental Disabilities Unite! and our focus is sharing information, strategies, and commiserating about our state and it's woeful stance and services for those with disabilities. We hope we're a place to vent when our loved one is having problems. We hope we can be a place to come together (remember the " Unite! " part of our name?)to lobby our local, state and national law makers when items come up that affect our loved ones. We want you share news in your part of the state, news of your children and news of your lives--this is not an easy life and we all do the best we can and it's great we can come together to share the ride. > > We try to be as apolitical as we can be......in Illinois, that can be a hard thing to do! But we must, or we will turn into something other that what Laurie intended IPADDUnite! to be. Partisan politics have no place here--no matter what side you're on. > > The ONE THING we all agree on is---Illinois SUCKS when it comes to services/programs etc. etc. for those with special needs. I bring up the " Unite! " part of our name again--we are united in our belief we can make it better and be a force in Illinois if WE ARE UNITED IN OUR GOAL TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR OUR CHILDREN. We don't have to agree how to, but we have to trust each other that we all want just about the same thing. > > I have many, many friends who do not share my political beliefs and I try to avoid talking politics with them. I have always been political, since my days at Illini Girls State when I ran for office and in my time " off list " , I am very political. But politics can be polarizing and being polarized from each other is exactly what we can't afford to be if we want to change this state. > > So, be nice. I'll get off my soapbox and leave you and have another cup of coffee. We can all agree that coffee and chocolate can fix anything. > > Marie > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 The same New York Times article states: “You can obtain coverage through Medicaid. Starting in 2014, anyone with an income below 133 percent of the poverty level — or about $29,327 in 2009 for a family of four — will be eligible for a rejuvenated Medicaid program. Medicaid’s often anemic reimbursements will be increased to the same level as Medicare, making more doctors willing to accept it.†So in 2014, even if not disabled, just decide not to work, as Sherri Schneider explained it to me, you will be eligible for Medicaid, or free Health Insurance Coverage… that is free to that consumer, not to the taxpayers. Not saying that is a bad thing… don’t want to sound political… just making an observation. There is so many contradicting and confusing information that I am hearing and reading. Obviously no member of the House or Senate read and understood what they were voting on but rather relied on their respective parties “spin†material… not political since I said both parties. There are several elections between now and 2014. Much can happen, much can change. Of course the tax increases are not going to wait… sorry, that sounds political. Scratch that. But since most changes do not take effect for years, and there are several elections, as well as the usual “technical corrections†Bills, we really don’t know what will be the impact on our children. My son, Mitch, now 29 (with Autism) is currently on pure Medicaid, since all of his M.D.’s have been (to date) accepting it, while we private pay for Dental. Since my “group†is under 10, I was never able to get a Group Policy, let alone Individual Policy that would cover Mitch. Now, like Ron, I’ll bite my tongue, not to be political. [cid:image001.gif@...] ________________________________ From: IPADDUnite [mailto:IPADDUnite ] On Behalf Of pam_harris@... Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:00 PM IPADDUnite Subject: Re: Re: What We're About The Healthcare reform bill has made some changes. According to the New York Times article: How the Health Care Overhaul Could Affect You: If your son or daughter is covered under your insurance AND also receives coverage from Medicaid (including Illinois’ Home Based Support Services waiver), the State cannot cut them from Medicaid until the exchanges start operating in 20104 UNLESS the State faces a budget shortfall. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/03/21/us/health-care-reform.html Pam What We're About > > > > > > > I would echo what Laurie and Ellen have posted about recent posts and add my own comments. > > We are Illinois Parents of Adults with Developmental Disabilities Unite! and our focus is sharing information, strategies, and commiserating about our state and it's woeful stance and services for those with disabilities. We hope we're a place to vent when our loved one is having problems. We hope we can be a place to come together (remember the " Unite! " part of our name?)to lobby our local, state and national law makers when items come up that affect our loved ones. We want you share news in your part of the state, news of your children and news of your lives--this is not an easy life and we all do the best we can and it's great we can come together to share the ride. > > We try to be as apolitical as we can be......in Illinois, that can be a hard thing to do! But we must, or we will turn into something other that what Laurie intended IPADDUnite! to be. Partisan politics have no place here--no matter what side you're on. > > The ONE THING we all agree on is---Illinois SUCKS when it comes to services/programs etc. etc. for those with special needs. I bring up the " Unite! " part of our name again--we are united in our belief we can make it better and be a force in Illinois if WE ARE UNITED IN OUR GOAL TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR OUR CHILDREN. We don't have to agree how to, but we have to trust each other that we all want just about the same thing. > > I have many, many friends who do not share my political beliefs and I try to avoid talking politics with them. I have always been political, since my days at Illini Girls State when I ran for office and in my time " off list " , I am very political. But politics can be polarizing and being polarized from each other is exactly what we can't afford to be if we want to change this state. > > So, be nice. I'll get off my soapbox and leave you and have another cup of coffee. We can all agree that coffee and chocolate can fix anything. > > Marie > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 The same New York Times article states: “You can obtain coverage through Medicaid. Starting in 2014, anyone with an income below 133 percent of the poverty level — or about $29,327 in 2009 for a family of four — will be eligible for a rejuvenated Medicaid program. Medicaid’s often anemic reimbursements will be increased to the same level as Medicare, making more doctors willing to accept it.†So in 2014, even if not disabled, just decide not to work, as Sherri Schneider explained it to me, you will be eligible for Medicaid, or free Health Insurance Coverage… that is free to that consumer, not to the taxpayers. Not saying that is a bad thing… don’t want to sound political… just making an observation. There is so many contradicting and confusing information that I am hearing and reading. Obviously no member of the House or Senate read and understood what they were voting on but rather relied on their respective parties “spin†material… not political since I said both parties. There are several elections between now and 2014. Much can happen, much can change. Of course the tax increases are not going to wait… sorry, that sounds political. Scratch that. But since most changes do not take effect for years, and there are several elections, as well as the usual “technical corrections†Bills, we really don’t know what will be the impact on our children. My son, Mitch, now 29 (with Autism) is currently on pure Medicaid, since all of his M.D.’s have been (to date) accepting it, while we private pay for Dental. Since my “group†is under 10, I was never able to get a Group Policy, let alone Individual Policy that would cover Mitch. Now, like Ron, I’ll bite my tongue, not to be political. [cid:image001.gif@...] ________________________________ From: IPADDUnite [mailto:IPADDUnite ] On Behalf Of pam_harris@... Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:00 PM IPADDUnite Subject: Re: Re: What We're About The Healthcare reform bill has made some changes. According to the New York Times article: How the Health Care Overhaul Could Affect You: If your son or daughter is covered under your insurance AND also receives coverage from Medicaid (including Illinois’ Home Based Support Services waiver), the State cannot cut them from Medicaid until the exchanges start operating in 20104 UNLESS the State faces a budget shortfall. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/03/21/us/health-care-reform.html Pam What We're About > > > > > > > I would echo what Laurie and Ellen have posted about recent posts and add my own comments. > > We are Illinois Parents of Adults with Developmental Disabilities Unite! and our focus is sharing information, strategies, and commiserating about our state and it's woeful stance and services for those with disabilities. We hope we're a place to vent when our loved one is having problems. We hope we can be a place to come together (remember the " Unite! " part of our name?)to lobby our local, state and national law makers when items come up that affect our loved ones. We want you share news in your part of the state, news of your children and news of your lives--this is not an easy life and we all do the best we can and it's great we can come together to share the ride. > > We try to be as apolitical as we can be......in Illinois, that can be a hard thing to do! But we must, or we will turn into something other that what Laurie intended IPADDUnite! to be. Partisan politics have no place here--no matter what side you're on. > > The ONE THING we all agree on is---Illinois SUCKS when it comes to services/programs etc. etc. for those with special needs. I bring up the " Unite! " part of our name again--we are united in our belief we can make it better and be a force in Illinois if WE ARE UNITED IN OUR GOAL TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR OUR CHILDREN. We don't have to agree how to, but we have to trust each other that we all want just about the same thing. > > I have many, many friends who do not share my political beliefs and I try to avoid talking politics with them. I have always been political, since my days at Illini Girls State when I ran for office and in my time " off list " , I am very political. But politics can be polarizing and being polarized from each other is exactly what we can't afford to be if we want to change this state. > > So, be nice. I'll get off my soapbox and leave you and have another cup of coffee. We can all agree that coffee and chocolate can fix anything. > > Marie > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 I keep reading this and though I know is correct about the ability to have both Medicaid and private insurance, I am troubled by the potential for this to change in the future. In fact, I would be curious to know how Managed Care would affect those who use private physicians via private pay or private insurance...Would Managed Care in some way prevent individuals from accessing other providers/physicians that one would chose to pay privately? In the same vein, would the Health Care Reform Bill in some way do the same? Does anyone know the answer to this? Ellen Ellen Garber Bronfeld egskb@... What We're About > > > > > > > I would echo what Laurie and Ellen have posted about recent posts and add my own comments. > > We are Illinois Parents of Adults with Developmental Disabilities Unite! and our focus is sharing information, strategies, and commiserating about our state and it's woeful stance and services for those with disabilities. We hope we're a place to vent when our loved one is having problems. We hope we can be a place to come together (remember the " Unite! " part of our name?)to lobby our local, state and national law makers when items come up that affect our loved ones. We want you share news in your part of the state, news of your children and news of your lives--this is not an easy life and we all do the best we can and it's great we can come together to share the ride. > > We try to be as apolitical as we can be......in Illinois, that can be a hard thing to do! But we must, or we will turn into something other that what Laurie intended IPADDUnite! to be. Partisan politics have no place here--no matter what side you're on. > > The ONE THING we all agree on is---Illinois SUCKS when it comes to services/programs etc. etc. for those with special needs. I bring up the " Unite! " part of our name again--we are united in our belief we can make it better and be a force in Illinois if WE ARE UNITED IN OUR GOAL TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR OUR CHILDREN. We don't have to agree how to, but we have to trust each other that we all want just about the same thing. > > I have many, many friends who do not share my political beliefs and I try to avoid talking politics with them. I have always been political, since my days at Illini Girls State when I ran for office and in my time " off list " , I am very political. But politics can be polarizing and being polarized from each other is exactly what we can't afford to be if we want to change this state. > > So, be nice. I'll get off my soapbox and leave you and have another cup of coffee. We can all agree that coffee and chocolate can fix anything. > > Marie > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 I keep reading this and though I know is correct about the ability to have both Medicaid and private insurance, I am troubled by the potential for this to change in the future. In fact, I would be curious to know how Managed Care would affect those who use private physicians via private pay or private insurance...Would Managed Care in some way prevent individuals from accessing other providers/physicians that one would chose to pay privately? In the same vein, would the Health Care Reform Bill in some way do the same? Does anyone know the answer to this? Ellen Ellen Garber Bronfeld egskb@... What We're About > > > > > > > I would echo what Laurie and Ellen have posted about recent posts and add my own comments. > > We are Illinois Parents of Adults with Developmental Disabilities Unite! and our focus is sharing information, strategies, and commiserating about our state and it's woeful stance and services for those with disabilities. We hope we're a place to vent when our loved one is having problems. We hope we can be a place to come together (remember the " Unite! " part of our name?)to lobby our local, state and national law makers when items come up that affect our loved ones. We want you share news in your part of the state, news of your children and news of your lives--this is not an easy life and we all do the best we can and it's great we can come together to share the ride. > > We try to be as apolitical as we can be......in Illinois, that can be a hard thing to do! But we must, or we will turn into something other that what Laurie intended IPADDUnite! to be. Partisan politics have no place here--no matter what side you're on. > > The ONE THING we all agree on is---Illinois SUCKS when it comes to services/programs etc. etc. for those with special needs. I bring up the " Unite! " part of our name again--we are united in our belief we can make it better and be a force in Illinois if WE ARE UNITED IN OUR GOAL TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR OUR CHILDREN. We don't have to agree how to, but we have to trust each other that we all want just about the same thing. > > I have many, many friends who do not share my political beliefs and I try to avoid talking politics with them. I have always been political, since my days at Illini Girls State when I ran for office and in my time " off list " , I am very political. But politics can be polarizing and being polarized from each other is exactly what we can't afford to be if we want to change this state. > > So, be nice. I'll get off my soapbox and leave you and have another cup of coffee. We can all agree that coffee and chocolate can fix anything. > > Marie > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Good questions! I added them to my list to ask Jim on Wednesday! What We're About > > > > > > > I would echo what Laurie and Ellen have posted about recent posts and add my own comments. > > We are Illinois Parents of Adults with Developmental Disabilities Unite! and our focus is sharing information, strategies, and commiserating about our state and it's woeful stance and services for those with disabilities. We hope we're a place to vent when our loved one is having problems. We hope we can be a place to come together (remember the " Unite! " part of our name?)to lobby our local, state and national law makers when items come up that affect our loved ones. We want you share news in your part of the state, news of your children and news of your lives--this is not an easy life and we all do the best we can and it's great we can come together to share the ride. > > We try to be as apolitical as we can be......in Illinois, that can be a hard thing to do! But we must, or we will turn into something other that what Laurie intended IPADDUnite! to be. Partisan politics have no place here--no matter what side you're on. > > The ONE THING we all agree on is---Illinois SUCKS when it comes to services/programs etc. etc. for those with special needs. I bring up the " Unite! " part of our name again--we are united in our belief we can make it better and be a force in Illinois if WE ARE UNITED IN OUR GOAL TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR OUR CHILDREN. We don't have to agree how to, but we have to trust each other that we all want just about the same thing. > > I have many, many friends who do not share my political beliefs and I try to avoid talking politics with them. I have always been political, since my days at Illini Girls State when I ran for office and in my time " off list " , I am very political. But politics can be polarizing and being polarized from each other is exactly what we can't afford to be if we want to change this state. > > So, be nice. I'll get off my soapbox and leave you and have another cup of coffee. We can all agree that coffee and chocolate can fix anything. > > Marie > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Good questions! I added them to my list to ask Jim on Wednesday! What We're About > > > > > > > I would echo what Laurie and Ellen have posted about recent posts and add my own comments. > > We are Illinois Parents of Adults with Developmental Disabilities Unite! and our focus is sharing information, strategies, and commiserating about our state and it's woeful stance and services for those with disabilities. We hope we're a place to vent when our loved one is having problems. We hope we can be a place to come together (remember the " Unite! " part of our name?)to lobby our local, state and national law makers when items come up that affect our loved ones. We want you share news in your part of the state, news of your children and news of your lives--this is not an easy life and we all do the best we can and it's great we can come together to share the ride. > > We try to be as apolitical as we can be......in Illinois, that can be a hard thing to do! But we must, or we will turn into something other that what Laurie intended IPADDUnite! to be. Partisan politics have no place here--no matter what side you're on. > > The ONE THING we all agree on is---Illinois SUCKS when it comes to services/programs etc. etc. for those with special needs. I bring up the " Unite! " part of our name again--we are united in our belief we can make it better and be a force in Illinois if WE ARE UNITED IN OUR GOAL TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR OUR CHILDREN. We don't have to agree how to, but we have to trust each other that we all want just about the same thing. > > I have many, many friends who do not share my political beliefs and I try to avoid talking politics with them. I have always been political, since my days at Illini Girls State when I ran for office and in my time " off list " , I am very political. But politics can be polarizing and being polarized from each other is exactly what we can't afford to be if we want to change this state. > > So, be nice. I'll get off my soapbox and leave you and have another cup of coffee. We can all agree that coffee and chocolate can fix anything. > > Marie > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 From what I hear (and not understand) this bill is hundreds/a few thousand pages.. I heard a political scientist point out Social Security was voted on and it took five years to iron out the details. And in reality the details of Social Security are still being worked out. That probably is the case with this health bill. It cannot seem unusual that there are going to be devils of details for generations. I do believe we had to take a first step, move forward and hammer things out or we will never get started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 From what I hear (and not understand) this bill is hundreds/a few thousand pages.. I heard a political scientist point out Social Security was voted on and it took five years to iron out the details. And in reality the details of Social Security are still being worked out. That probably is the case with this health bill. It cannot seem unusual that there are going to be devils of details for generations. I do believe we had to take a first step, move forward and hammer things out or we will never get started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 I have learned more about the new healthcare program by reading IPADD posts than anywhere else. Everything that I have read I can find an article with nearly the exact opposite perspective depending on which political party initiated the info. I very much appreciate everyone's input, including the differing opinions. : ) Can we get , , Ron and Pam together (Ellen can moderate! : )) to hammer all of this out for us? I very much enjoy all of the info they are providing and I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall as the four of them discussed this mess!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 I have learned more about the new healthcare program by reading IPADD posts than anywhere else. Everything that I have read I can find an article with nearly the exact opposite perspective depending on which political party initiated the info. I very much appreciate everyone's input, including the differing opinions. : ) Can we get , , Ron and Pam together (Ellen can moderate! : )) to hammer all of this out for us? I very much enjoy all of the info they are providing and I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall as the four of them discussed this mess!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Don't forget me. I like to participate too Re: What We're About I have learned more about the new healthcare program by reading IPADD posts than anywhere else. Everything that I have read I can find an article with nearly the exact opposite perspective depending on which political party initiated the info. I very much appreciate everyone's input, including the differing opinions. : ) Can we get , , Ron and Pam together (Ellen can moderate! : )) to hammer all of this out for us? I very much enjoy all of the info they are providing and I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall as the four of them discussed this mess!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Don't forget me. I like to participate too Re: What We're About I have learned more about the new healthcare program by reading IPADD posts than anywhere else. Everything that I have read I can find an article with nearly the exact opposite perspective depending on which political party initiated the info. I very much appreciate everyone's input, including the differing opinions. : ) Can we get , , Ron and Pam together (Ellen can moderate! : )) to hammer all of this out for us? I very much enjoy all of the info they are providing and I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall as the four of them discussed this mess!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Certainly, health care will undergo changes over the years. It's a complicated issue made more complicated by the host of attorneys involved in its writing. But, it's a start and, for me, it's a very significant first step. I, along with (I think) a majority of Americans, believed that our current health care practice was unsustainable and had to be changed. Hopefully, most of the tweaks that will be made over the coming months and years will be positive for PEOPLE - whether they have a disability, a job, an accident, are self employed or work for a small company, have a serious (or even minor) illness, are rich or poor ..... moi > > From what I hear (and not understand) this bill is hundreds/a few thousand > pages.. I heard a political scientist point out Social Security was voted on > and it took five years to iron out the details. And in reality the details > of Social Security are still being worked out. That probably is the case > with this health bill. It cannot seem unusual that there are going to be > devils of details for generations. I do believe we had to take a first > step, move forward and hammer things out or we will never get started. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Certainly, health care will undergo changes over the years. It's a complicated issue made more complicated by the host of attorneys involved in its writing. But, it's a start and, for me, it's a very significant first step. I, along with (I think) a majority of Americans, believed that our current health care practice was unsustainable and had to be changed. Hopefully, most of the tweaks that will be made over the coming months and years will be positive for PEOPLE - whether they have a disability, a job, an accident, are self employed or work for a small company, have a serious (or even minor) illness, are rich or poor ..... moi > > From what I hear (and not understand) this bill is hundreds/a few thousand > pages.. I heard a political scientist point out Social Security was voted on > and it took five years to iron out the details. And in reality the details > of Social Security are still being worked out. That probably is the case > with this health bill. It cannot seem unusual that there are going to be > devils of details for generations. I do believe we had to take a first > step, move forward and hammer things out or we will never get started. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 I find this discussion interesting, but very detailed. Personally what we do is is on my insurance, so I just use it as primary. Another reason why we use mine as primary is because the Medicaid does not let him choose his physicians. The doctor he had been going to for some time was not in the 'suggested' list so we chose to just 'ignore' it I guess and continue as we had been going. There may come a time when this will not be possible to do for us but for right now it works. I want to have the freedom to choose the physician I go to as does my son, not be told who to go to. Kathy mother of > > > > > > > > Hi - > > > > Will you please then set some parameters or describe how discussions about lobbying local, state and national law makers can occur without a discussion of the issue ALL while remaining apolitical? > > > > > > > > How about this for apolitical discussion: > > > > > > > > Several months ago, I was shaken to learn that because my son Josh participates in IL Home Based Support Services Program, the State and Federal government have increased access to his privacy - that is, what is beyond the protections provided to a citizen not participating in a Medicaid waiver program. > > > > > > > > > > The State of Illinois gave my name and home address to union organizers. And the reason they were able to do so was because I receive a check that comes from the IL HBSSP program. > > > > > > > > This intrusion on my privacy motivated me to stand up and loudly protest what I felt was the state of IL forcing me to join a union and pay money to a union via dues or fair share. In turn, the union could use the money to exercise their political muscle on policies that I may agree or disagree with. > > > > > > > > Again, I am shaken to learn that the State of Illinois can force us to drop Josh from our private health insurance if he is to continue participating in the IL HBSSP. I don’t know when or if this happen but this is a part of the new healthcare reform law. > > > > > > > > I can’t help but to ask: > > > > Is it worth it? Is the small monetary support worth all of the heavy, inflexible strings that it comes with? Is it worth giving up our privacy? > > > > > > > > I am tired of the quarterly visits and the review of our records. I am wondering why Josh has to have an individualized service plan that identifies life goals and documents his progress towards these goals. I don’t have an individualized service plan. I don’t have to report monthly on my progress made towards my life goals. People don't have to sit down at least once a year and examine all aspects of my life - medical, social, familial and discuss it. > > > > > > > > Some days, I am shaken to realize what we give up because Josh participates in a Medicaid waiver program. > > > > > > > > Thoughts? > > Pam > > > > What We're About > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would echo what Laurie and Ellen have posted about recent posts and add my own comments. > > > > We are Illinois Parents of Adults with Developmental Disabilities Unite! and our focus is sharing information, strategies, and commiserating about our state and it's woeful stance and services for those with disabilities. We hope we're a place to vent when our loved one is having problems. We hope we can be a place to come together (remember the " Unite! " part of our name?)to lobby our local, state and national law makers when items come up that affect our loved ones. We want you share news in your part of the state, news of your children and news of your lives--this is not an easy life and we all do the best we can and it's great we can come together to share the ride. > > > > We try to be as apolitical as we can be......in Illinois, that can be a hard thing to do! But we must, or we will turn into something other that what Laurie intended IPADDUnite! to be. Partisan politics have no place here--no matter what side you're on. > > > > The ONE THING we all agree on is---Illinois SUCKS when it comes to services/programs etc. etc. for those with special needs. I bring up the " Unite! " part of our name again--we are united in our belief we can make it better and be a force in Illinois if WE ARE UNITED IN OUR GOAL TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR OUR CHILDREN. We don't have to agree how to, but we have to trust each other that we all want just about the same thing. > > > > I have many, many friends who do not share my political beliefs and I try to avoid talking politics with them. I have always been political, since my days at Illini Girls State when I ran for office and in my time " off list " , I am very political. But politics can be polarizing and being polarized from each other is exactly what we can't afford to be if we want to change this state. > > > > So, be nice. I'll get off my soapbox and leave you and have another cup of coffee. We can all agree that coffee and chocolate can fix anything. > > > > Marie > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 I find this discussion interesting, but very detailed. Personally what we do is is on my insurance, so I just use it as primary. Another reason why we use mine as primary is because the Medicaid does not let him choose his physicians. The doctor he had been going to for some time was not in the 'suggested' list so we chose to just 'ignore' it I guess and continue as we had been going. There may come a time when this will not be possible to do for us but for right now it works. I want to have the freedom to choose the physician I go to as does my son, not be told who to go to. Kathy mother of > > > > > > > > Hi - > > > > Will you please then set some parameters or describe how discussions about lobbying local, state and national law makers can occur without a discussion of the issue ALL while remaining apolitical? > > > > > > > > How about this for apolitical discussion: > > > > > > > > Several months ago, I was shaken to learn that because my son Josh participates in IL Home Based Support Services Program, the State and Federal government have increased access to his privacy - that is, what is beyond the protections provided to a citizen not participating in a Medicaid waiver program. > > > > > > > > > > The State of Illinois gave my name and home address to union organizers. And the reason they were able to do so was because I receive a check that comes from the IL HBSSP program. > > > > > > > > This intrusion on my privacy motivated me to stand up and loudly protest what I felt was the state of IL forcing me to join a union and pay money to a union via dues or fair share. In turn, the union could use the money to exercise their political muscle on policies that I may agree or disagree with. > > > > > > > > Again, I am shaken to learn that the State of Illinois can force us to drop Josh from our private health insurance if he is to continue participating in the IL HBSSP. I don’t know when or if this happen but this is a part of the new healthcare reform law. > > > > > > > > I can’t help but to ask: > > > > Is it worth it? Is the small monetary support worth all of the heavy, inflexible strings that it comes with? Is it worth giving up our privacy? > > > > > > > > I am tired of the quarterly visits and the review of our records. I am wondering why Josh has to have an individualized service plan that identifies life goals and documents his progress towards these goals. I don’t have an individualized service plan. I don’t have to report monthly on my progress made towards my life goals. People don't have to sit down at least once a year and examine all aspects of my life - medical, social, familial and discuss it. > > > > > > > > Some days, I am shaken to realize what we give up because Josh participates in a Medicaid waiver program. > > > > > > > > Thoughts? > > Pam > > > > What We're About > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would echo what Laurie and Ellen have posted about recent posts and add my own comments. > > > > We are Illinois Parents of Adults with Developmental Disabilities Unite! and our focus is sharing information, strategies, and commiserating about our state and it's woeful stance and services for those with disabilities. We hope we're a place to vent when our loved one is having problems. We hope we can be a place to come together (remember the " Unite! " part of our name?)to lobby our local, state and national law makers when items come up that affect our loved ones. We want you share news in your part of the state, news of your children and news of your lives--this is not an easy life and we all do the best we can and it's great we can come together to share the ride. > > > > We try to be as apolitical as we can be......in Illinois, that can be a hard thing to do! But we must, or we will turn into something other that what Laurie intended IPADDUnite! to be. Partisan politics have no place here--no matter what side you're on. > > > > The ONE THING we all agree on is---Illinois SUCKS when it comes to services/programs etc. etc. for those with special needs. I bring up the " Unite! " part of our name again--we are united in our belief we can make it better and be a force in Illinois if WE ARE UNITED IN OUR GOAL TO MAKE IT BETTER FOR OUR CHILDREN. We don't have to agree how to, but we have to trust each other that we all want just about the same thing. > > > > I have many, many friends who do not share my political beliefs and I try to avoid talking politics with them. I have always been political, since my days at Illini Girls State when I ran for office and in my time " off list " , I am very political. But politics can be polarizing and being polarized from each other is exactly what we can't afford to be if we want to change this state. > > > > So, be nice. I'll get off my soapbox and leave you and have another cup of coffee. We can all agree that coffee and chocolate can fix anything. > > > > Marie > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 I am with Diane on this. I pay substantially to keep my daughter on my insurance because the Medicaid providers in this area were USELESS. I called my provider and they said they were unaware of this being a problem. The bottom line is we save the state plenty by paying for this ourselves. This last year alone my insurance paid over $5,000 (at their negotiated rates) for her. How would the state benefit by forcing us to use Medicaid? Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 I am with Diane on this. I pay substantially to keep my daughter on my insurance because the Medicaid providers in this area were USELESS. I called my provider and they said they were unaware of this being a problem. The bottom line is we save the state plenty by paying for this ourselves. This last year alone my insurance paid over $5,000 (at their negotiated rates) for her. How would the state benefit by forcing us to use Medicaid? Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Sounds like we will have a real expert, Jim , to whom we can ask questions about Managed Care on IPADDU...and I won't have to " moderate! " Great idea to have him! On another note, I am going to be taking some much needed time off from IPADDU for a while. Depending on time and availability, I will still be commenting, but I will not be moderating. I will be reading all posts as usual, of course. As for my role on I Team...I will also be lurking, but not moderating. I Team is in the very capable hands of Gordon and Pam. IPADDU is in the very capable hands of Marie and Laurie. All will continue as usual... I am always available at any time for those in need... Ellen Ellen Garber Bronfeld egskb@... Re: What We're About I have learned more about the new healthcare program by reading IPADD posts than anywhere else. Everything that I have read I can find an article with nearly the exact opposite perspective depending on which political party initiated the info. I very much appreciate everyone's input, including the differing opinions. : ) Can we get , , Ron and Pam together (Ellen can moderate! : )) to hammer all of this out for us? I very much enjoy all of the info they are providing and I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall as the four of them discussed this mess!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Sounds like we will have a real expert, Jim , to whom we can ask questions about Managed Care on IPADDU...and I won't have to " moderate! " Great idea to have him! On another note, I am going to be taking some much needed time off from IPADDU for a while. Depending on time and availability, I will still be commenting, but I will not be moderating. I will be reading all posts as usual, of course. As for my role on I Team...I will also be lurking, but not moderating. I Team is in the very capable hands of Gordon and Pam. IPADDU is in the very capable hands of Marie and Laurie. All will continue as usual... I am always available at any time for those in need... Ellen Ellen Garber Bronfeld egskb@... Re: What We're About I have learned more about the new healthcare program by reading IPADD posts than anywhere else. Everything that I have read I can find an article with nearly the exact opposite perspective depending on which political party initiated the info. I very much appreciate everyone's input, including the differing opinions. : ) Can we get , , Ron and Pam together (Ellen can moderate! : )) to hammer all of this out for us? I very much enjoy all of the info they are providing and I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall as the four of them discussed this mess!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 One last thought...we have an expert to discuss Managed Care, which is great. We will need to find an expert on the Health Care Reform bill and its impact on people with disabilities, at some point. A few of us debating the pros and cons of the bill will not give us the facts, which is what IPADDU is all about. I think the lines between Managed Care and the Health Care Reform bill will become blurred, here in Illinois as both will be affecting us at the same time, but the impact of each is independent of the other. So, we need to be aware of how both will affect our loved ones. Ellen Ellen Garber Bronfeld egskb@... Re: What We're About I have learned more about the new healthcare program by reading IPADD posts than anywhere else. Everything that I have read I can find an article with nearly the exact opposite perspective depending on which political party initiated the info. I very much appreciate everyone's input, including the differing opinions. : ) Can we get , , Ron and Pam together (Ellen can moderate! : )) to hammer all of this out for us? I very much enjoy all of the info they are providing and I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall as the four of them discussed this mess!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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